INS Arihant: News & Discussion

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abhik
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Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Postby abhik » 18 Nov 2018 13:37

^^^
It is 12+ trillion compared to our ~2.6 in 2017 - and it will probably grow wider in absolute terms in the near future.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... P_(nominal)

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Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Postby yensoy » 18 Nov 2018 14:56

dinesh_kimar wrote:...About 7-8 years back (before Agni 5 testing), Chinese scholars used to argue that India's stated deterence was a 1500-2000 km IRBM with 50 kt, and India ought not to test anything bigger and "upset the balance"...


Looks to me that the unstated thought is that India can have deterrence capabilities against Pakistan but not against China.

Deterrence is useless against China unless we are convincingly capable of striking Beijing and Shanghai with stuff large enough to take out 100+ square km. They couldn't care less if we threaten some 3rd tier city in Tibet or Sinkiang with some piddly tonnage.

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Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Postby Singha » 18 Nov 2018 15:19

>> They couldn't care less if we threaten some 3rd tier city in Tibet or Sinkiang with some piddly tonnage.

:rotfl:

please read the deterrence thread.

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Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Postby Cain Marko » 19 Nov 2018 12:45

Not too long g ago, when A5 was tested for first time and officially ranged at 5k km, it was the Chinese who were the first to say that it was 8k km missile at least. They have come a long way and know that India easily has the reach needed to sever the jugular...

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Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Postby Singha » 19 Nov 2018 17:05

yes from downsizing india's claim they have moved to supersizing and yelling at the world to do something about the yindu under-reporting

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Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 21 Nov 2018 08:30

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1064849733972152320 ----> With the launch of India's first indigenous nuclear attack submarine (SSN) being at least 10 years away (as per Admiral Lanba himself), I don't see how India can get by without leasing more Russian SSNs in the interim. Especially given that our SSBNs will need protection.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1064928128538050560 ----> Escorting SSBNs is very much a bonafide SSN mission. The Soviets felt a need for it much earlier than the Americans. If you have the time, do read this ONR report on the SSBN-protection mission.

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/b082798.pdf

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Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Postby RKumar » 21 Nov 2018 20:18

^With due respect, personally I don't think we are going to lease multiple SSNs from Russia. We will manage with whatever we have and continue working on improved solutions.

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Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 22 Nov 2018 01:33

RKumar: He is referring to the lease of the 2nd Akula Class. INS Chakra is due to return to the Russian Navy in 2022, a mere three years from now. The ten year lease will be up at that point. And we need another SSN till our own comes into service. And as per Admiral Lanba, that is 10 years away. And I am sure you are aware, that there is not a single "recent" Indian Naval vessel program that has come on time. Everything is delayed, for a variety of reasons. That is just the nature of ship building in India. If Admiral Lanba says 10 years, add another 5 years on top of that.

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Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Postby titash » 22 Nov 2018 02:55

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1064849733972152320 ----> With the launch of India's first indigenous nuclear attack submarine (SSN) being at least 10 years away (as per Admiral Lanba himself), I don't see how India can get by without leasing more Russian SSNs in the interim. Especially given that our SSBNs will need protection.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1064928128538050560 ----> Escorting SSBNs is very much a bonafide SSN mission. The Soviets felt a need for it much earlier than the Americans. If you have the time, do read this ONR report on the SSBN-protection mission.

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/b082798.pdf


Interesting read that PDF article. It appears there's more to the ASW craft being acquired than meets the eye. Looks like escorting the Arihant and its sisters to the open ocean is a higher priority mission than plain harbor defence.

I guess that's why the orders for Kamortas + shallow water ASW craft + MCMVs are lined up in parallel with the SSBN fleet coming online. Also explains why ALL the Kamortas are on the eastern seaboard. If these small corvettes & minesweepers follow the same deployment logic, we'll know more...

The french D'Estienne d'Orves class avisos fulfilled a similar role...

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Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Postby RKumar » 22 Nov 2018 22:52

Rakesh wrote:RKumar: He is referring to the lease of the 2nd Akula Class. INS Chakra is due to return to the Russian Navy in 2022, a mere three years from now. The ten year lease will be up at that point.


I hope what is ours, we might keep it.

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Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Postby ArjunPandit » 22 Nov 2018 23:20

^^ I'm not sure if range is a concern but isn't scs shallow add compared to ior

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Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 23 Nov 2018 00:06

RKumar wrote:
Rakesh wrote:RKumar: He is referring to the lease of the 2nd Akula Class. INS Chakra is due to return to the Russian Navy in 2022, a mere three years from now. The ten year lease will be up at that point.

I hope what is ours, we might keep it.

If you are referring to the lease of INS Chakra (ex-Nerpa), she has to return to the Russian Navy in 2022. Unless the Govt of India intends to buy out the vessel, after the expiration of the lease. And assuming the Govt of Russia would be interested in the offer.

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Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Postby RKumar » 23 Nov 2018 13:43

Sir, let's see how things turn up at the end. Personally, I don't think we require multiple leased subs.

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Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Postby Viv S » 23 Nov 2018 22:14

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1064849733972152320 ----> With the launch of India's first indigenous nuclear attack submarine (SSN) being at least 10 years away (as per Admiral Lanba himself), I don't see how India can get by without leasing more Russian SSNs in the interim. Especially given that our SSBNs will need protection.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1064928128538050560 ----> Escorting SSBNs is very much a bonafide SSN mission. The Soviets felt a need for it much earlier than the Americans. If you have the time, do read this ONR report on the SSBN-protection mission.

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/b082798.pdf

What SJha seems to forget is that the bulk of the Soviet SSBN fleet was bottled up in Barents & Norwegian seas and the whole area was swarming with US (and British) SSNs, who had a tendency to tag along whenever a Red boat ventured west of the GIUK gap.

In contrast, the IN's Arihants face absolutely no access problems in the IOR/BoB and while the PLAN's presence west of the Malacca is expanding, its in no position to keep tabs on Indian sub movements, nor will it be for decades, if at all.

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Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Postby dinesha » 05 Dec 2018 20:30

X-post
India close to sealing Rs 23,000 crore lease deal for Russian N-sub
https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/i ... 2018-12-04

The photo backdrop to Admiral Sunil Lanba's annual Navy Day press conference on December 3 was a timely one. It showed a submerged Akula class nuclear powered attack submarine, firing a missile. Talks of leasing another Akula-2 class SSN from Russia to replace the INS Chakra at the end of its ten year lease, have reached a crescendo within the Navy in recent weeks.

Last week, a naval delegation led by Inspector General (Nuclear Safety) Vice Admiral Soonil V Bhokare returned after a tour of Russia. They inspected two Akula-2 class submarines, the Bratsk and the Samara, laid up for a deep refit at the Zvezdochka shipyard in the Arctic port of Severodvinsk. The delegation also included a Joint Secretary (Finance) in the MoD discussed the lease of one of these submarines reportedly for USD 3.3 billion (Rs 23,000 crore). The Indian side is believed to have agreed to this amount and this could be the biggest defence deal after the two countries following the USD 5.4 billion (Rs 40,000 crore) purchase of five S-400 air defence missile systems in October and a USD 1.5 billion deal to buy two Admiral Grigorovich class frigates from Russia.

The naval delegation's visit was followed by a four-day visit to Russia by Admiral Lanba, where he reportedly discussed the Chakra lease and the construction of conventional submarines in India.

The Navy single Akula-2 class submarine, the INS Chakra, was taken on a ten year lease from Russia for USD 2.5 billion in 2011. Officials said the cost of the leasing its replacement, tentatively called the Chakra-3, was worked out after considering a cost escalation using the 2011 lease amount as a base.


Both the Bratsk and the Samara were shipped from a Russian naval base in Kamchatka to Severodvinsk in 2014, rather dramatically as deck cargo on a heavy load carrying merchant vessel. Both submarines were built at the Komsomolsk Shipyard on the Amur River in the Russian Far East and are not exactly new. The Bratsk is a 28-year-old hull while the Samara is 23 years old.

The Navy will soon select one of these hulls to lease. After the Inter Governmental Agreement (IGA) is signed between the two countries, the submarine will be put through an intensive 72-month deep refit and rebuild, where the nuclear reactor will be replaced and a number of indigenous systems installed on board. The INS Chakra in contrast, had a shorter four- year refit between 2004 and 2008 because it did not require a reactor replacement, usually the most challenging part of a nuclear submarine's overhaul.

SSNs use a nuclear reactor for propulsion but are usually armed with conventional weapons like missiles and torpedoes to hunt other warships and submarines and strike at targets on land. Strategic analyst Rear Admiral Raja Menon calls them 'the ultimate arbiters of power', simply for their lethality and versatility. SSNs can be used for multiple tasks like hunting enemy submarines, escorting SSBNs and aircraft carriers and stalking and chasing enemy aircraft carriers and their warship escorts. SSNs differ from nuclear-missile armed SSBNs like the Navy's INS Arihant which completed a deterrent patrol last month. If SSBNs are like bombers, then SSNs are like fighter jets. The plan has five SSNs and is building three more.

All of the Indian Navy's tasks are currently performed by its single platform, the INS Chakra. The submarine was non operational for nearly a year after suffering an accident when some of the panels covering its sonar dome had sheared away while it was doing a high speed underwater run. Admiral Lanba on Monday confirmed that the Chakra had now returned to service. The vessel's ten-year lease expires in January 2022 and it is thus entirely possible that this lease could be extended for another three years to allow for the new submarine.

The Navy's bid for a fresh submarine comes at a time when it is struggling to build six 6,000 tonne indigenous SSNs. At his press conference last December, Admiral Lanba confirmed that the design work on the SSNs had commenced. Last month, however, Admiral Lanba told India Today that the launch of the first indigenous SSN was 'over a decade away', suggesting all is not well.

Naval analysts have taken this long lead time to build the submarine to mean that the Bhabha Atomic Research Centre (BARC) is yet to crack the main piece of the SSN puzzle- developing a nuclear powered reactor. BARC developed an 83 MW reactor with Russian assistance for the Arihant class SSBNs which are meant to quietly lurk out at sea while on patrol. Experts say using this reactor design won't do because of the very high output requirements for an SSN's reactor- rapid starts and very high sustained speeds when in battle.

There is perhaps yet another reason for continued access to the Akula class submarine. At 13,500 tonnes each, the three S-5 class of SSBNS which are soon to start building at the Ship Building Centre in Vizag, are double the displacement of the Arihant class. They have a displacement similar to that of the the Akula-2 class. While the roles of the two submarines are entirely different, the size is the same. At least one source suggests the S-5 is based on the Akula design. The S-5 boats are larger variants of the Arihant class with a larger hull diameter to carry a dozen longer-range SLBMs (the two Arihant class carry can carry four K-4 missiles, the S-4 and S-4*, eight missiles).

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Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Postby Karthik S » 05 Dec 2018 21:44

$3.3 billion? Wonder what more is included in that figure.

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Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 05 Dec 2018 22:15

Might be a stupid question, has the Arihant fired Takshak or any Russian Torpedo as part of Self Defense before conducting its Detterence Patrol.

Are we planning to integrate Takshak with INS Chakra or Akula II ships?

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Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 05 Dec 2018 23:34

I think after the Kilo submarine mishap with liquid fuel torpedo, it would be prudent to not have that on Arihant and to use electric battery run torpedoes.
INS Arihant is a SSBN and part of deterrent and not for making attacks on surface ships.

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Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Postby Singha » 06 Dec 2018 09:07

He was referring to self defence against subs

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Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Postby hnair » 06 Dec 2018 09:21

Two fishes in one frame. The one on the top-left (peeking through the floating hangar) seem to be the next boat

Image

but yevil-yindoo made sure the hem-lines were lifted only as much, that it barely hides the hydroplanes on the coning tower and confuse all...... :lol: However from the taper of the sail and the shadow, can't be the Chakra (more conical sides than Arihant)

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Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Postby Philip » 06 Dec 2018 09:43

.
Last edited by Philip on 06 Dec 2018 09:45, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Postby Philip » 06 Dec 2018 09:43

We've no official idea of the Chakra's capabilities, but it is certain that the second Akula will be much improved, probably also featuring VLS for advanced long-range cruise missiles. If the IN feels it iz worgh retaining, another lease extension of the Chakra could also be on thd cards.

The apparent high cost of the seconx boat could include the money reqd. for the joint design of the 6 SSNs too, and possibly even a retainer for building conventional boats.Unless two sevond lines are established for both conventional AIP boats and the 6 SSNs, we will be at a severe disadvantage vs the combined sub fleets of the PLAN and PN.MDL will have enough work on its hands for several years delivering the balance Scorpenes and upgrading the 4 U- boats.

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Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Postby RKumar » 06 Dec 2018 14:48

I don't believe, we have to hide any costs from anyone. If we have JV for SSN, it can be hidden or shown as such. There is always some black projects with enough money allocated. The public does not need to know about these until it reaches certain capabilities to display to the public audience. Public always gets to know the final amount with reasonable breakdowns spent on the efforts without publishing bookkeeping details.

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Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 06 Dec 2018 16:50

Regarding our SSBN and SSN cant we have concrete shelters for them rather than having them exposed. And my previous question, what Torpedos does Arihant use for Self defense? Has Torpedo firing been tested. Logically, since the PM has declared it has completed a detterence Patrol it should have done the testing most probably a few units of Takshak are also ready for this.

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Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Postby Vips » 06 Dec 2018 17:55

Karthik S wrote:$3.3 billion? Wonder what more is included in that figure.


So in other words just for the lease amount we pay every year ($330 Million), we can get a brand new and improved Kilo class submarine for the Indian Navy for keeps. The yindoo bania is not foolish to give that kind of money for a sub whose hull is 28 years old unless there are some goodies being accessed.

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Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Postby Singha » 06 Dec 2018 18:50

the Akulas have 4 larger tubes 650mm for the 12 of the 23" diameter torpedo. ... for the granit/kalibr so mostly it can fire the brahmos(smaller diameter than granit) if really want it to. it carries 28 more 21" diameter HWT/missiles/mines

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Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Postby John » 06 Dec 2018 19:19

RKumar wrote:I don't believe, we have to hide any costs from anyone. If we have JV for SSN, it can be hidden or shown as such. There is always some black projects with enough money allocated. The public does not need to know about these until it reaches certain capabilities to display to the public audience. Public always gets to know the final amount with reasonable breakdowns spent on the efforts without publishing bookkeeping details.


This is catch 22 it is similar to previous deals for igla,s-400,talwar etc when people claimed it includes the cost for Akula lease since there is no way to confirm its incorrect we just end up pointless speculating. IMO its pointless to speculate unless there is proof we won't get anywhere lets leave at it for now that lease cost for second Akula is 3.3 billion, IMO i doubt there is any secret tech or acquisitions hidden in that.


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