INS Arihant: News & Discussion

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Post Reply
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18274
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/SandeepUnnithan/sta ... 92704?s=20 ---> Happy Kargil Vijay Divas. On this day remembering another milestone this year 11 years ago, the launch of our 1st SSBN INS Arihant (S2) at the Ship Building Centre (SBC), Vizag. Copy of the India Today graphic initialed by legends who made it happen - incl Vice Admiral MK Roy, first DG-ATV.

Image

https://twitter.com/SandeepUnnithan/sta ... 72704?s=20 ---> And this comment wall from our defence reporting corps - the only occasion media were allowed into the SBC.

Image
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18274
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/cvkrishnan/status/1 ... 83904?s=20 ---> When an Ohio Class SSBN is deployed no one questions it’s deployment, intent or capability. But lo, news comes that India has deployed sea based nuke deterrent and every analyst jumps in to discount the entire deployment as a farce! Objectivity too is home quarantined I guess!
wig
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2162
Joined: 09 Feb 2009 16:58

Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Post by wig »

The ATV project was Atmanirbhar since its inception: Vice Admiral PC Bhasin (retd)

https://www.indiatoday.in/india-today-i ... 2020-08-24

very informative. worth reading in full
extracts
There were two very mature decisions taken under the guidance of the Prime Minister.

One was that we did not want to reinvent the wheel, so we decided that we would buy the design from an international agency and proceed with that. Here, we primarily wanted the ‘know how’ and the ‘know why’ of the design. We were also fortunate that we were able to get the normatives from the suppliers—the norms around which the design of a particular item, like a car, a motorcycle, a ship or a submarine is established. Companies [generally] never tell you anything of the normatives—this is their [intellectual property]. Our supplier was very kind—though we paid a very tidy sum for it, we got the normatives. The advantage was that with these, we could alter the design to our requirements or update it. For example, [suppose] we had designed a submarine with a maximum diving depth of 100 metres, but [later] wanted to increase that to 150 or 200 metres. To do that, we do not have to reinvent the wheel—we already have the normatives, so we update the design and change it as required. With this we had made designs for an SSBN. We have also been quite successful in [modifying] the design for an SSN (non-ballistic nuclear submarine). Though we didn’t have the build parameters for this, we are quite happy with [our design].

The second key decision was that the Navy wanted the private sector to enter the field. We were married to the concept of atmanirbharta, and we could achieve that only if the private sector came in to the project and worked with us, because the Navy cannot continuously provide the necessary manpower the way the private sector can. This being a special project, all the private sector firms and MSMEs [we brought in] were very keen to join.
dinesha
BRFite
Posts: 1211
Joined: 01 Aug 2004 11:42
Location: Delhi

Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Post by dinesha »

wig wrote:The ATV project was Atmanirbhar since its inception: Vice Admiral PC Bhasin (retd)

https://www.indiatoday.in/india-today-i ... 2020-08-24

very informative. worth reading in full
extracts
Also, the ATV programme was not only about building the submarine—it was also about building nuclear weapons. Those nuclear weapons are 100 per cent indigenous. We take credit for that—we did it ourselves.
dinesh_kimar
BRFite
Posts: 527
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Post by dinesh_kimar »

The Admiral hints (i feel) that we can make Submarines locally, the foreign tech is not very critical, certain items can be integrated with our local design.

The lack of official push and interest in this line of thought is appalling.
Rishirishi
BRFite
Posts: 1409
Joined: 12 Mar 2005 02:30

Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Post by Rishirishi »

Take a look at the photograph on the wall :D :D

Image
Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12195
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/cvkrishnan/status/1 ... 83904?s=20 ---> When an Ohio Class SSBN is deployed no one questions it’s deployment, intent or capability. But lo, news comes that India has deployed sea based nuke deterrent and every analyst jumps in to discount the entire deployment as a farce! Objectivity too is home quarantined I guess!

late response.

The Indian media will only accept that an Indian submarine is on patrol if the wife / GF of the CO is seen dancing on top of the Missile tubes of a deployed sub.

Or it didn't happen.
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18274
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Rishirishi wrote:Take a look at the photograph on the wall :D :D
Why is this post in this thread?

How does it relate to the Arihant Class?
Mort Walker
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10033
Joined: 31 May 2004 11:31
Location: The rings around Uranus.

Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Post by Mort Walker »

Rakesh wrote:
Rishirishi wrote:Take a look at the photograph on the wall :D :D
Why is this post in this thread?

How does it relate to the Arihant Class?
Because they're waiting for you to distribute the displacement in ladoos since SSBN is now deployed.
arshyam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4570
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Post by arshyam »

After INS Arihant, India’s Second Indigenous Nuclear Submarine INS Arighat Set To Enter Into Service By 2020 End - Swarajya
In a major fillip for the Indian Navy's capabilities and arsenal, its second nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarine after INS Arihant, the INS Arighat is set to be deployed into service by the end of 2020, reports Naval News.

Developed under the Advanced Technology Vessel (ATV) project, INS Arighat has been built at the shipbuilding centre located in Andhra Pradesh's Visakhapatnam. It is set to complete three years of sea trials and will thereafter enter service with the Indian Navy.

The submarine is capable of carrying more missiles than INS Arihant, and it comes with the ability to cruise at a maximum speed of 12-15 nautical miles on the surface of water and can achieve a speed of 24 nautical miles while submerged.

The indigenous nuclear submarine will have eight launch tubes and will be armed with 12 K-15 Sagarika missiles which have a range of 750 km. It will also be able to carry up to four K-4 missiles that have a range of 3,500 km.

It had been reported in December 2014 that the work on INS Arighat had begun and it was likely to be launched in 2016. In 2017, the launch took place in a closely guarded fashion since when it had been undergoing sea trials. Originally it had been named INS Arindaman but was later named INS Arighat during the launch event.
Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 20773
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Post by Karan M »

3 years to complete trials. We have to speed things up. Otherwise we will lose a significant chunk of the reactor life in trials itself.
Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12195
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

If the construction began in 2014, then the time line is as per the global best practices atleast in this program.
abhik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3090
Joined: 02 Feb 2009 17:42

Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Post by abhik »

^^^
More that the commissioning/trials period, the build timelines don't make sense. Arihant was launched in 2009, and Arighat in 2017 (a gap of 8 years!) - it like we are building them serially one at a time.
k prasad
BRFite
Posts: 962
Joined: 21 Oct 2007 17:38
Location: Somewhere over the Rainbow
Contact:

Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Post by k prasad »

abhik wrote:^^^
More that the commissioning/trials period, the build timelines don't make sense. Arihant was launched in 2009, and Arighat in 2017 (a gap of 8 years!) - it like we are building them serially one at a time.
To be fair, given that the Arihant was not only the lead submarine in its class, but our very first attempt at a nuclear submarine, its actually a good thing that they built it serially... that way, the lessons learnt from Arihant in deployment could be used to improve the Arighat. Nothing worse than duplicating a mistake on the second attempt by finalizing its design and beginning build when the first attempt hasn't even been put through its paces. I'd expect that the next few subs in class will be faster, with increased design maturity and stability.
tsarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3263
Joined: 08 May 2006 13:44
Location: mumbai

Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Post by tsarkar »

L&T build Titanium sonar dome, in all probability for Arihant class submarines

Image

More here https://www.lnt-defence.com/our-offerin ... onar-dome/

Image

The Chakra & Type 877EKM have torpedo tubes on top, so definitely not for them. Type 209/1500 has a different hullform

Image

Image

Image

It can also be a ship sonar dome but that would have the bottom part missing here

Image

There is the possibility of it being a fake image to mislead or a representative image. The image shows editing in the top part and behind part.

Titanium indicates deeper diving depth.

Typically Western design submarines have sonar dome on top and torpedo tubes below. Russian submarines have the reverse philosophy

Image

Ofcourse there is the possibility of the image being a representative image or a fake image.
tsarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3263
Joined: 08 May 2006 13:44
Location: mumbai

Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Post by tsarkar »

On further research and from memory, the Arihant class too has the torpedo tubes on top.

This is a Russian Delta Class submarine and the L&T sonar dome corresponds to the layout

Image

Compared to the height of the man, the scaffolding in the L&T image also corresponds to approximate dimensions. The L&T folks tried to airbrush the scaffolding and give the appearance of a room.

No conventional submarine in Indian service has a titanium sonar dome.

It can be for the Type 877 EKM as well, but that Type too never had a titanium sonar dome.
Prem Kumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4218
Joined: 31 Mar 2009 00:10

Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

Is the 8 launch tubes for Arighat a typo?

12 K-15 or 4 K-4 means four launch tubes, unless they mean 12 K-15 plus 4 K-4! That'd be great news, but wouldn't it also mean that the loadout can be 12 K-4s potentially?
SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 25087
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Post by SSridhar »

Prem Kumar wrote:Is the 8 launch tubes for Arighat a typo?
No, that's not a typo.
tsarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3263
Joined: 08 May 2006 13:44
Location: mumbai

Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Post by tsarkar »

The first three submarines were supposed to have 4 "large" tubes.

When P Chidambaram asked for extra tubes, then the second submarine was taken up for modification but the first and third were to be completed to original 4 "large" tube configuration since faster time to service was an important consideration.

An additional fourth submarine was added.

So we should have 2 4 "large" tube submarines and 2 8 "large" tube submarines.

Of course, plans change, and this narrative is anecdotal and maybe submarine 2-4 will have 8 tubes.
nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 9102
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Post by nachiket »

SSridhar wrote:
Prem Kumar wrote:Is the 8 launch tubes for Arighat a typo?
No, that's not a typo.
That Swarajya article does not make complete sense though. They mention Arighat having 8 tubes instead of 4 like the Arihant, but the complement of missiles mentioned is the same as the Arihant (12 K-15 and 4 K-4). It should be double of that if the number of tubes is doubled. Also, if that is really true, wouldn't the submarine be larger, heavier and require a bigger higher power reactor?
JTull
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3118
Joined: 18 Jul 2001 11:31

Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Post by JTull »

nachiket wrote:
SSridhar wrote: No, that's not a typo.
That Swarajya article does not make complete sense though. They mention Arighat having 8 tubes instead of 4 like the Arihant, but the complement of missiles mentioned is the same as the Arihant (12 K-15 and 4 K-4). It should be double of that if the number of tubes is doubled. Also, if that is really true, wouldn't the submarine be larger, heavier and require a bigger higher power reactor?
12 K-15 and 4 K-4
vs
12 K-15 or 4 K-4
dinesh_kimar
BRFite
Posts: 527
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Post by dinesh_kimar »

Oh Chidambaram! :mrgreen:

For some unknown reason, he was selected as a committee member of Parliament defence Commitee. He raised the objection that INS Arihant has only 4 launch tubes , despite having a high cost, as already explained by Tsarkar Saar above.

Standard Delay tactics.

It is a credit to the DRDO team that they developed a solution quickly - an extra plug with 4 tubes , 7000 ton displacement and "acceptable performance". Estimate the top speed is at approx. 17-19 Knots, down from 22, and uses the same 83 MWe / 17 MW propulsion plant.

If he had not raised these objections in 2008-9, there would not have been delay / rework and could have been 1-2 extra submarines today, perhaps.

Having 4 submarines today (16 tubes) is better than having 3 submarines in 2022 (again with 16 tubes). Its not only about equivalent ballistic missile firepower, the extra platform can also do other duties like reconn, fire K-15 / Klub missiles, etc.

However, I credit the Indian Govt. / stakeholders for overcoming all obstacles and inducting 2 submarines till date, quite capable and potent platforms, multirole attack / H-K / Ballistic, can fire torpedos, mines, Klub Missiles, K-15 and the K-4.

Range is only limited by the amount of food and the Captain's mood. :mrgreen:
Srutayus
BRFite
Posts: 178
Joined: 29 Aug 2016 05:53

Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Post by Srutayus »

Image

Borei class submarine. Spot the resemblence
SRajesh
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2069
Joined: 04 Aug 2019 22:03

Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Post by SRajesh »

Srutayus wrote:Image

Borei class submarine. Spot the resemblence
Is my eyes playing the tricks or the L&T specimen has been kept upside down deliberately :wink: Just to confuse the 'Wise ones' :lol: :lol:
tsarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3263
Joined: 08 May 2006 13:44
Location: mumbai

Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Post by tsarkar »

Kept upside down for ease of access.

Fooled me as well initially. I over thought for a minute like a jingo :D

Typically for a deep diving titanium hulled submarine, the targets will be above. So the sonar is kept above and torpedo tubes below

The Americans go a step further and use the entire bow for a massive spherical sonar and fire torpedoes from the side at a slant angle.

Image

Then I became grounded when memories came back that other than propulsion and missiles, the rest of design is very conventional.
Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21538
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Post by Philip »

By 2005 we should aim at having at least 4 " boomers" active. With one in the docks for maintenance/ refit,3 X 8/12 BMs should give us a min. of 24 X 3 warheads of MIRV/ MARVs totally. Once the full SSBN fleet is available,around 120+ warheads would be available on approx.50 launchers.The first ATV,the Arihant could be used as an SSGN,with 12 K-15s,
idan
BRFite
Posts: 105
Joined: 21 Jun 2020 00:19

Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Post by idan »

May the departed soul attain moksha ... Dr Sekhar Basu

Nuclear scientist Sekhar Basu dies of Covid-19
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 297285.cms

Image
Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21538
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Post by Philip »

Truly tragic .His contribution to our N-sub programme was immense. His death at the early age of 68 too has robbed the nation of a great scientific mind who had much more to contribute to the nation.We salute you !
Vivek K
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2931
Joined: 15 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Post by Vivek K »

Check out Google Earth - lat - 17.710812°, Long - 83.268017°. Seems a new (fatter?) fish in the water.
RajaRudra
BRFite
Posts: 344
Joined: 17 Sep 2019 14:13

Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Post by RajaRudra »

This thread and the machines that prowl the oceans are in silent mode when the LAC is/was on tenterhook. Down the line, we may come across the stories about the fishes going and waiting near the Chinese cities and ships just waiting for the code to be delivered and take the surprizes to the next level and convention. Lets see how long it will take for the information to become public.. :D
Prem Kumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4218
Joined: 31 Mar 2009 00:10

Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

Vivek K wrote:Check out Google Earth - lat - 17.710812°, Long - 83.268017°. Seems a new (fatter?) fish in the water.
Nice! So, what's this new baby?
Vivek K
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2931
Joined: 15 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Post by Vivek K »

S4+?
gpurewal
BRFite
Posts: 106
Joined: 20 Oct 2018 03:23

Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Post by gpurewal »

The rudder profile is extremely intriguing. Could this be a SSN?
Aditya G
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3565
Joined: 19 Feb 2002 12:31
Contact:

Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Post by Aditya G »

Vivek K wrote:Check out Google Earth - lat - 17.710812°, Long - 83.268017°. Seems a new (fatter?) fish in the water.
Arihant class
Cybaru
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2914
Joined: 12 Jun 2000 11:31
Contact:

Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Post by Cybaru »

Seems same as the other boat on the pier below this one..
Vivek K
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2931
Joined: 15 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Post by Vivek K »

Same length but a little fatter.
Aditya G
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3565
Joined: 19 Feb 2002 12:31
Contact:

Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Post by Aditya G »

Vivek K wrote:Same length but a little fatter.
Its just not carrying as much weight and hence out of the water
Vips
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4699
Joined: 14 Apr 2017 18:23

Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Post by Vips »

we are now in the 3rd month and no news about INS Arighat which was supposed to be commissioned in 'early 2021'.
Vivek K
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2931
Joined: 15 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Post by Vivek K »

I don't think they announce induction of strategic assets that way.
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18274
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

They do not. Well after induction and when the GOI feels the time is right, it is announced.

Considering the neighbourhood India lives in, it is best to leave her second strike capability ambiguous.
Post Reply