INS Arihant: News & Discussion

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Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Postby sivab » 07 Nov 2018 22:15

barath_s wrote:
Vips wrote:India’s Arihant patrol completion crucial but ‘triad’ not yet complete: C UdayBhaskar.

The missile on this boat is considered to be a sea-based variant of the Dongfeng- 4 series with a range upwards of 5,000km. In contrast, the Arihant is estimated to have a missile with a range in hundreds of kms[/b]. ....

SSBN are preferred because they provide second strike capability - the ability to survive and then strike back. Armed with a 750 km missile, Arihant patrolling the bay of bengal does not strike fear - yet.

Ignorance is bliss.

Maiden Test of Undersea K-4 Missile From Arihant Submarine
http://www.newindianexpress.com/nation/ ... 21990.html

Nuclear-capable K-4 ballistic missile tested from INS Arihant
https://www.firstpost.com/india/nuclear ... 27516.html

India tests most ambitious nuclear missile
https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/i ... 2016-04-13

India Today has accessed the first images of this secretive weapon system that has almost never been seen before in flight. The missile system was tested twice in March from India's home-built Arihant ballistic missile submarine, a platform that's currently undergoing sea trials before a possible entry into service next year.

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Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Postby Rishi_Tri » 07 Nov 2018 22:28

C Uday Bhaskara article is at best listing of what others do, not necessarily what India should given the capabilities of Arihant. In a war with Pakistan, critical support to Adversary shall be from China, perhaps Saudi Arabia or Russia. Assuming China is the biggest supporter, one would want one's biggest strategic asset to be present where it could pressure, hurt and deter China, hence somewhere close to Hong Kong or Shanghai. So even with its limited capabilities, Arihant has massive deterrent capabilities. No country would want its biggest centers to be so close to danger as Arihant shall present. Bay of Bengal is not the playground for Arihant, it closer to some other places.

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Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 07 Nov 2018 22:35

vishal wrote:Is it the angle at which the pic was taken or does Arihant look considerably bigger than a 6,000 ton boat?

:) :wink:

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Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Postby ArjunPandit » 07 Nov 2018 22:41

Rishi_Tri wrote:C Uday Bhaskara article is at best listing of what others do, not necessarily what India should given the capabilities of Arihant. In a war with Pakistan, critical support to Adversary shall be from China, perhaps Saudi Arabia or Russia. Assuming China is the biggest supporter, one would want one's biggest strategic asset to be present where it could pressure, hurt and deter China, hence somewhere close to Hong Kong or Shanghai. So even with its limited capabilities, Arihant has massive deterrent capabilities. No country would want its biggest centers to be so close to danger as Arihant shall present. Bay of Bengal is not the playground for Arihant, it closer to some other places.

^^
1. Why Russia?
2. While prima facie yes, I think the depth of that part of world is not of the same order as IOR . Even then, it still poses a huge risk to china. If not anything, it will help in hydrological mapping

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Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Postby Rishi_Tri » 07 Nov 2018 22:56

Russia because of economic indebtedness to China; because they have played tango with each other on biggest issues that people have seen over past decade.. Iran, North Korea, Syria, Afghanistan; and Russia 'hasn't been able to use its good offices to convince' China to have simple thing of Maulana M Azhar declared global terrorist.

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Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 07 Nov 2018 23:23

Any comments (from twitter links) you see below, are courtesy of the author of the tweet and not me :)

https://twitter.com/SandeepUnnithan/sta ... 9681037312 ----> Wonder what the Indian Navy deterrent patrol badge will look like. Not very different fromm USN SSBN DP.

Image

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Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 08 Nov 2018 00:59

I like C Uday Bhaskar but disagree with his above article.
His article is seeing things from a naval perspective and not a national perspective.


PM Modi has declared the triad to be operational and he knows his stuff.
As CUB rightly says a triad is based on
- Airplanes :IAF SU-30MKI and Mirage 2Ks This was written so many times WOP Chngappa, Press reports justifying Su-30MKI purchase in mid 1990 decade
- Land Based Missile: Various land based missiles from Prithvi, Agni -I , Agni-II/IV, Agni-III, and Agni V All operational with SFC
- Submarine based : INS Arihant

So the triad is there. Live and kicking and with the SFC.

Next lets come to range of missiles on Arihant.

The choice is K-15 or K-4. His article is based on the assumption that K15 short range are the missiles deployed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INS_Arihant

Milestones:
- INS Arihant was launched in 26 July 2009 (10th anniversary of Kargil War conclusions)
- Commenced Sea trials from 2012 .
- Final development of Sagarika/ K15 tested in Jan 2013
- Arihant reactor critical in Aug 2013
- Extensive Sea trials in 2014
- Test missile K 15 fired in Nov 2015
- We hear about K-4 testing at least twice in April 2016 Hemant Rout the gold standard of missile test reporting *
Link
- More Sea trials and commissioned by Modi in Aug 2016.
- Next we heard about sea water damage due to open and underwent repairs.
- In Nov 2018 first deterrent patrol completed.
So what do we know:
- Arihant has been tested with K-15 and K-4 missiles
- K-4 allows the sub to be deployed in far away deep waters and can reach targets in both challengers (Pak and China)


Now tell me whether IN commanders are born yesterday to carry a short range pen knife (K 15) to a missile fight?
K-4 allows them to hide in deep waters away from long range detection resources.
I think the hatch repair was used to refit with K-4 tubes.

So I think the Arihant first deterrent patrol carried K-4 missiles and not the K-15.

And CUB says it sailed from Vizag which makes sense that it carries the K-4 missiles.
Now next quibble will be only 4 missiles! :)

To this I say the early Soviet Golf Class had 3 missiles.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golf-class_submarine


*
The trial was carried out with the support of the personnel of Strategic Forces Command (SFC) while the DRDO provided all logistics. The missile was fired from 20-meter deep and it pierced into the sky after breaking the water surface. INS Arihant had first successfully fired a prototype of K-15 (B-05) missile in November last year.

The K-4 missile was fired from onboard silos of the ship submersible ballistic, nuclear (SSBN) submarine demonstrating the capability of the newly built underwater warship to fire long range nuclear capable missiles and the killing efficiency of the most advanced state-of-the-art weapon system.
“Having an operational range of nearly 3,500 km, the missile was fired towards north for a shorter range. It covered more than 700 km before zeroing on the target with high accuracy reaching close to zero circular error probability (CEP),” informed the source.


In other words they tested it from Vizag towards the Balasore area and used lofted trajectory to achieve the 700 km range with that high energy 3500 km missile. Far from prying eyes.

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Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 08 Nov 2018 01:17

Also the announcement of Indian naval submarine deterrent patrol is very significant in political terms. Please revisit the deterrence thread and read the P.N. Haskar memo to Mrs. Indira Gandhi on the subject that India needs to have submarine deterrence as a national objective. The memo was written in 1968.

P.N. Haksar, Secretary to Prime Minister Indira Gandhi that may be dated to 1968. The note is titled “Need for India In a Changing World to Reassess her National Interest and Foreign policy.”

Link is here with my remarks: viewtopic.php?p=2087913#p2087913

And note the stated range of K-4 at 3500 km ( 2000 nautical miles) is right in the lower end of the Haksar requirement of need for 2000 to 3000 miles range missiles. I think he meant nautical miles.

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Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Postby tsarkar » 08 Nov 2018 10:51

arshyam wrote:It is interesting to note that the Navy went with the Amriki classification and designated the Arihant as SSBN-80. There was a discussion in the older thread where some stalwarts (tsarkar-ji?) had argued that the Arihant was neither an SSN nor an SSBN, and was a unique type amongst world navies. Sort of a swing role platform, if you will

Indeed, we use a single alphabet designation F for Frigate S for Submarine D for destroyer K for missile boats (Killers) P for Patrol Ships. US uses FF for Frigates DD for destroyers SS for submarines. FFG & DDG indicates Frigates and Destroyers powered by Gas Turbines and SSN indicates submarine with nuclear propulsion.

We use only S71 for INS Chakra and not SSN71
https://www.indiannavy.nic.in/content/submarines-active

So yes, it's a marked departure from tradition/convention.

It is still the world's only multi role submarine until Virginia Payload Modules enter service and that won't carry ballistic missiles.

chola wrote:How close is this one?
This? Seems to be the most realistic one.

Both by drawn by Gagan based on my inputs in 2009 here on Bharat Rakshak. The side view completely tallies with the photo of INS Arihant with Chetak flying overhead. India Today and others shamelessly copied it without credit.

Request members to kindly stop posting "Looks like Borei / Sita aur Gita" comments. Adds nothing to the discussion. Shipbuilding and Engineering is much beyond appearance and such naive posts trivialise actual shipbuilding effort and achievements.

Request moderators to filter out such comments, including one of my earlier posts responding to such comparisons.

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Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Postby chola » 08 Nov 2018 11:13

Thank you, Tsarkar and Gagan ji! Amazed to find our that the most accurate diagrams in the DDM originated here! Maybe not so amazed since the knowledge accumulated here is greater than 99% of our press. Bravo!

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Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Postby abhijitm » 08 Nov 2018 13:45

Jayram wrote:
krishna_krishna wrote:Happy Diwali to all the brfites. And Diwali gift for porki lurkers, here is video from horses mouth that shows INS Arihant has fired multiple times. So all the claim of untested mizzile test from sub will have to remain in realm of goat dreams :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OVkapI2oSE


Such an great Indian Video and ethos.. One of the most important discussions on our Nuclear triad taking place in the open next to autos and bystanders walking by with no clue who this gentleman is.. Love it..

Great video. The way he is 'confidently evasive with a smile' brings peace to Indians, and sends shiver down enemy's spine.

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Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Postby barath_s » 08 Nov 2018 14:21

sivab wrote:Ignorance is bliss.
Maiden Test of Undersea K-4 Missile From Arihant Submarine
http://www.newindianexpress.com/nation/ ... 21990.html

Braggadocio too is bliss.

Do you not keep track of the K4 missile development tests ?

You link one development test that it passed in 2016 and immediately get transported to nirvana ? Typically it takes multiple tests before the missile is declared operational

The K-4 failed a development test in December 2017 , where it was supposed to be launched from an underwater pontoon,and the battery got drained.

Failed K4 Test on 17 Dec 2017 from underwater pontoon.

So they planned to schedule a new K-4 test in the beginning of 2018 - also from an underwater pontoon (which may have gotten delayed, as these things, do)

The 750 km BO-5/K-15 was operationalized in August 2018, following tests from the Arihant.

The Arihant goes out on deterrence patrol in Oct 2018 after the K15 was declared operationalized in August

There is a great deal of obfuscation about which missile is tested when (defence orgs have in past tested one missile under cover of testing another), but the available open source information and timelines point to the K-4 not yet being operationalized and the Arihant using the recently operationalized K15/BO-5.

If you have actual updated information, do please link. But please do sanity checks about basic information that is widely followed and a wiki article away - and do the courtesy of assuming others do so.

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Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Postby Khalsa » 08 Nov 2018 14:37

Singha wrote:To me it looks size and shape of a 688 class boat about 110m long which fits a 6500-7000t weight

Well there are two humans standing on the sail to scale.

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Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Postby barath_s » 08 Nov 2018 15:07

ramana wrote: I like C Uday Bhaskar but disagree with his above article.
His article is seeing things from a naval perspective and not a national perspective.

I would say it is from a strategic perspective. The long range vision of the journey and not the focus on the immediate milestone.

ramana wrote:PM Modi has declared the triad to be operational and he knows his stuff.

You have to be extremely careful in parsing these words. As many times, what is not said or not specified is as or more important than what is said. And PM Modi is an extremely careful politician who knows what is better not specified and what words to use.

ramana wrote:As CUB rightly says a triad is based on
- Airplanes :IAF SU-30MKI and Mirage 2Ks This was written so many times WOP Chngappa, Press reports justifying Su-30MKI purchase in mid 1990 decade
- Land Based Missile: Various land based missiles from Prithvi, Agni -I , Agni-II/IV, Agni-III, and Agni V All operational with SFC
- Submarine based : INS Arihant

So the triad is there. Live and kicking and with the SFC.

Next lets come to range of missiles on Arihant.

The choice is K-15 or K-4. His article is based on the assumption that K15 short range are the missiles deployed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INS_Arihant

Milestones:
- INS Arihant was launched in 26 July 2009 (10th anniversary of Kargil War conclusions)
- Commenced Sea trials from 2012 .
- Final development of Sagarika/ K15 tested in Jan 2013
- Arihant reactor critical in Aug 2013
- Extensive Sea trials in 2014
- Test missile K 15 fired in Nov 2015
- We hear about K-4 testing at least twice in April 2016 Hemant Rout the gold standard of missile test reporting *
Link
- More Sea trials and commissioned by Modi in Aug 2016.

You have carefully omitted the links and reports of later K-4 development failures in 17 Dec 2017 (still from a pontoon), and K-15 being declared operational following August 2018 tests from Arihant.

Now it is your absolute right to insist that these are obfuscation, but to omit these datum points ltogether lacks integrity - it makes it appear that you pick and choose your data for your conclusion or that you are non-expert. This is not worthy of you.

For open source links, see my prior post, or heck, even see wikipedia.

ramana wrote:- Next we heard about sea water damage due to open and underwent repairs.
- In Nov 2018 first deterrent patrol completed.
So what do we know:
- Arihant has been tested with K-15 and K-4 missiles
- K-4 allows the sub to be deployed in far away deep waters and can reach targets in both challengers (Pak and China)

Now tell me whether IN commanders are born yesterday to carry a short range pen knife (K 15) to a missile fight?

Nor are IN commanders born who broadcast 'deficiencies' to a watchful enemy, especially when one should expect that this would undercut the prime minister and the program whereby these will anyway be made up in long run. It is immaterial whether one calls it a dog or not, as long as it bites. And it is in the national interest to maintain uncertainty on when it can bite. (eg During Kargil, the national security council headed by mr vajpayee decided not to go on all-out attack against pakistan - they feared pakistani nukes. In hindsight, one learnt that said nukes had not been operationalized at the time. This is not a failure of Mr Vajpayee or Indian security council - they made the right decision with the information they had - this is success of the obfuscation.

And patrol is anyway needed to build up competencies - to make the triad more real. It is not critically important in the short run whether it was with K-15 or K-4. If with K-4, then by most accounts K-15 was ahead - when did the operationa lpatrol with K-15 occur if not now ?

ramana wrote:K-4 allows them to hide in deep waters away from long range detection resources.
I think the hatch repair was used to refit with K-4 tubes.

Ah, now you come to the heart of the matter. The hatch story always seemed to not quite fit. Your assumption is a perfectly legitimate one. But it is an assumption. The flip side is that it could also have been a true operational accident, (which has be-deviled far more accomplished navies than ones with India's track record) or a cover for something else. The operational issues with the Chakra,with the diesel Kilos, with submarines in the yard, and many more including surface vessels, let us know that the Indian Navy is not perfect, that operations can sometimes indeed be a real concern. Of course, it still can't guarantee that the hatch was not a cover job/disinformation. But

ramana wrote:

So I think the Arihant first deterrent patrol carried K-4 missiles and not the K-15.

And CUB says it sailed from Vizag which makes sense that it carries the K-4 missiles.
Now next quibble will be only 4 missiles! :)

To this I say the early Soviet Golf Class had 3 missiles.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golf-class_submarine

The trial was carried out with the support of the personnel of Strategic Forces Command (SFC) while the DRDO provided all logistics. The missile was fired from 20-meter deep and it pierced into the sky after breaking the water surface. INS Arihant had first successfully fired a prototype of K-15 (B-05) missile in November last year.

The K-4 missile was fired from onboard silos of the ship submersible ballistic, nuclear (SSBN) submarine demonstrating the capability of the newly built underwater warship to fire long range nuclear capable missiles and the killing efficiency of the most advanced state-of-the-art weapon system.
“Having an operational range of nearly 3,500 km, the missile was fired towards north for a shorter range. It covered more than 700 km before zeroing on the target with high accuracy reaching close to zero circular error probability (CEP),” informed the source.


In other words they tested it from Vizag towards the Balasore area and used lofted trajectory to achieve the 700 km range with that high energy 3500 km missile. Far from prying eyes.

Honestly 3 missiles or 4 or 8, doesn't change qualitative strategic deterrence. A single nuke landing in a major city can spoil one's day.

The lesson I take away from the Golf is that the Soviet Union had these relatively easily detectable diesel submarines,with short range nukes - barely 270 km nuke missile range - requiring them to get right up to the enemy coast. [later 1000 or 1600 km] and they did not hesitate to send them out on patrol.

Nations do what they can.

One thing you should also think about is whether the 3 K15 launches in August 2018 from the Arihant were not actually K15 user trials, but that one or more may actually have been K-4 launches.

The December 2017 failed K4 test would have been the 4th as per Sandeep Unnithan, with more scheduled thereafter. (24 Mar 2014/30m depth/3000 km range, 7 Mar 2016/20m underwater platform/pontoon, 31 Mar 206/20 m underwater/Arihant/700 km depressed trajectory)

I figure that there are actually too few launches overall for development tests, integration tests, user trials and that the K-15 was ahead of the K-4. So the official timeline makes sense to me - and that would have the Arihant voyaging with K-15 on deterrent patrol - this time around.

But as always, additional information could always cause me to change my mind/assumption.

The desire of us all all too often is to wish things were so - and I recommend that this should be guarded against or meticulously tested, before one comes to whatever decision one does come to.

I also figure that triad is not necesarily on/off- create enough uncertainty in the mind of your opponents - and it could be effective enough. At the same time,we are faced with professionals whose life is to figure out how to degrade the actual effectiveness of the triad. You see the USA trying various exercises with differin degrees of success against the Soviets & Russians and vice versa.

The Mirage, Jaguar and Sukhoi MKI (with Brahmos) could conceivably sport a nuke delivery, but so could Pakistan's supposedly de-plumbed F-16s in 1980 - before they came up with gravity bombing techniques. The limitation is that the Mirage, Jaguar and Sukhoi are not super survivable for deep penetration of china and may lack the range to hurt the populous chinese heartland on their east coast. But that's a matter of degree - like I said, there is a range of capabilities and confidence.

Cheers !

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Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Postby ks_sachin » 08 Nov 2018 16:21

barath_s wrote:...

Post more often...
Good to read diff perspectives..

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Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Postby barath_s » 08 Nov 2018 16:33

tsarkar wrote:It is still the world's only multi role submarine until Virginia Payload Modules enter service and that won't carry ballistic missiles.

How do you define multi-purpose ?

As there are a number of submarines with multiple countries which have multiple roles - power projection (surface attack, cruise missile attack against faraway targets/ etc) or sea denial or strategic support (underwater attack/suppression of enemy boomers, especially ASW/fleet escort) intelligence, surveillance and research aka spy missions, special operations support, strategic nuclear strike, etc

Usually a strategic nuclear strike platform is a high value platform and is not employed in other manners - doing so might compromise its primary mission.

Multi-role as a result of lack of clarity or compromise in usage or limitation of hardware is different from multi-role due to other reasons...

I'm not following your train of thought, so would you mind explaining, please ?

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Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Postby barath_s » 08 Nov 2018 16:49

Rishi_Tri wrote: Assuming China is the biggest supporter, one would want one's biggest strategic asset to be present where it could pressure, hurt and deter China, hence somewhere close to Hong Kong or Shanghai. So even with its limited capabilities, Arihant has massive deterrent capabilities.

That's extremely far away and presents logistics and crew challenges.And to get there you need to go through one of 3 choke points, which are not in control of India - (Malacca, Lombok or Sunda strait) often braving shallow water (which helps one detect or track a sub) and traffic to get to an extremely high traffic area, populated by not just commercial traffic, but multiple navies, often with sophisticated detection capability (surface, air or subsea ASW with towed array sonars, dipping buoys etc) and ocean floor sensors,for all I know.

You could give up noise signatures (useful for enemy threat libraries) and tactics, if observed.

Sure you could attempt it, but is the game worth the candle, right now ? Arihant is still our only operational SSBN sub and we have to work up a few more crews, work out tactics & strategy, get trained and test out new equipment (including missiles) and achieve sustained operational excellence .

ie Balance benefit vs risk vs time and decide what drives you to do it now, rather than any of the other competing priorities...

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Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 08 Nov 2018 19:13

Everyone: Please stop quoting *ENTIRE* posts to make a one line point. Also please make proper use of quotes. If you do not know how to use quotes, please *DO NOT* use them! It is frustrating to go through entire posts to see who wrote what and who responded to what. I have edited and cleared everything.

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Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Postby Vips » 08 Nov 2018 19:17

How effective will a couple of INS Arihant class subs be to enforce assured MAD against the Chinese? A missile with a single warhead strike capability launched in a S400 deployed China - Will it be enough?

Need at least half a dozen N Subs with MIRV equipped missiles with minimum 6000 KM range to contain china effectively. This is at not going to happen for at least a decade or more.

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Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Postby nam » 08 Nov 2018 20:23

Regarding the "hatch story", it is inconceivable that we would have water getting in through a hatch and the same sub goes out on it's first patrol .. all within a year.

If the supposed water damage was extensive, Arihant will not have been fixed in one year. Period. It is not easy to fix sub parts when there is an accident. It has to be cut open for major damages. And would IN have put any new changes through a re-test given that it is first of the class?

Not that i claim to be expect, what hatch in a sub will let in water? Cannot be missile tube or torpedo tube. If it had happen, wouldn't the CO got his sack?

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Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Postby Singha » 08 Nov 2018 21:33

4 missile tube hatches
1 hatch in sail
2 or 3 hatches on the fuselage
6 torpedo tubes each with outer and inner door

Take your pick

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Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Postby disha » 08 Nov 2018 21:55

Deterrence is a funny business. It is conceivable to how most mammals conceive. All it takes is a single one to hit the 'target'. It does not matter if five or thousand are shed.

It is one which could make it makes deterrence possible. And how it can be delivered. As long as the other thinks that even a single one can be delivered., deterrence is achieved. At that point 30 or 3000 do not matter. Even if you have 30,000 it is useless if there is no way to deliver it to target.

Now MAD is an outdated concept. Only civilizations that believed in the end of world and second coming etc brought forth the totally useless MAD concept. No ruler wants to rule over a dead country. And as a ruler, would you start a war and lose a million or two in the hope that you can kill the other's billion?

So Vips, one Arihant is enough. And one Arihant with one launch tube with one missile reaching the heart of the forbidden city is enough. Remember this is second strike. There is no way any adversary will be able to guarantee a destruction of a nuke sub which can loiter in ocean for months and can strike at will.

There are land based missiles and there is also air based delivery. There is a good reason that all NWS (& P6 states) have a triad.

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Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 08 Nov 2018 22:03

nam wrote:Regarding the "hatch story", it is inconceivable that we would have water getting in through a hatch and the same sub goes out on it's first patrol .. all within a year.

If the supposed water damage was extensive, Arihant will not have been fixed in one year. Period. It is not easy to fix sub parts when there is an accident. It has to be cut open for major damages. And would IN have put any new changes through a re-test given that it is first of the class?

Not that i claim to be expect, what hatch in a sub will let in water? Cannot be missile tube or torpedo tube. If it had happen, wouldn't the CO got his sack?

I am not an expert either, but I am assuming from the entrance hatch from where the crew enters / exits the boat.

I have been inside a Sindhugosh Class boat. For water to enter (in sizeable volumes) it will have to be through a hatch like that or perhaps through a torpedo tube that has a leak. Any leak for a submarine is disastrous and when she descends, the leak will only get worse and eventually destroy the boat.

That entire story of the Arihant taking in water - through an open hatch - is suspect. All subs have systems to let you know - that during a dive - a hatch is open. The dive will immediately be stopped. Alarms will be blaring and crews will be racing to stop any foreseeable damage.

And a vessel of the size and importance of the Arihant, there will be such fail safe systems and back ups as well. That is a nonsense story to justify some refit of some component or missile system.

Regardless, I would rather not know what the real reason is. Arihant can only be successfull in her role, if she remains silent. In the words of Vice Admiral JS Bedi (retd), “The navies of the world do not talk about their submarines.”

And yes the CO would get the sack. If he ignored all the alarms, told his crew to not take any corrective action and purposefully sunk the vessel. Getting sacked would then be the least of his worries. He would have committed treason and will face capital punishment. I doubt modern subs could even dive, with an open hatch.

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Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 08 Nov 2018 22:16

Also there are certain procedures during a dive. I am going to use my SDRE logic here and make some assumptions.

I believe the Captain tells the XO to dive the boat. The XO then tells the OOW (Officer On Watch) to commence diving procedures. The OOW communicates to the crew inside the boat to then start diving procedures. The Captain goes down, then the XO and then the OOW is last. He then closes the hatch and confirms that the hatch is closed. There is probably some system confirming that the hatch is closed and only then does the vessel begin to dive.

Now going to run back into my foxhole, so that I can duck and take cover. Probably everything I said above is inaccurate.

But moral of the story —> water coming through an open hatch - during a dive - is nonsense.

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Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Postby nam » 08 Nov 2018 22:38

Singha wrote:4 missile tube hatches
1 hatch in sail
2 or 3 hatches on the fuselage
6 torpedo tubes each with outer and inner door

Take your pick


Logic tells me that a sub design will have fallback in areas where there is a obvious chance of water coming in. There would be multiple water tight compartments around these places.

If for some reason we are stupid enough to not think about this and resulted in major damages.. SSBN-80 will not be doing patrol within a year.

I mean there were reports of damage to reactor. How did we fix it without opening up the sub, do all the test and send it on a deterrent patrol for the first time in our history!

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Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Postby Rishi_Tri » 08 Nov 2018 22:41

"That's extremely far away and presents logistics and crew challenges.And to get there you need to go through one of 3 choke points, which are not in control of India - (Malacca, Lombok or Sunda strait) often braving shallow water (which helps one detect or track a sub) and traffic to get to an extremely high traffic area, populated by not just commercial traffic, but multiple navies, often with sophisticated detection capability (surface, air or subsea ASW with towed array sonars, dipping buoys etc) and ocean floor sensors,for all I know."

Extremely far away would be Cape Horn and why would one send Nuclear sub through Malacca, Lombok, Sunda knowing all at. I would have the sub round Australia, through Tasman sea, off PNG and then park itself in the Typhoon infested waters in Philippine sea.

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Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Postby arshyam » 08 Nov 2018 23:22

barath_s wrote:
arshyam wrote:It is interesting to note that the Navy went with the Amriki classification and designated the Arihant as SSBN-80. There was a discussion in the older thread where some stalwarts (tsarkar-ji?) had argued that the Arihant was neither an SSN nor an SSBN, and was a unique type amongst world navies. Sort of a swing role platform, if you will. I was hoping the official designation would reflect some of that*, but SSBN it finally is. Maybe we want to keep the deterrence signalling unambiguous between conventional and nuclear weapons.

* Since diesels are designated S-xx, I was expecting something like SN-xx, or SNB-xx.


SS =Submarine aka Ship,submersible

B = Ballistic missile

N= Nuclear powered

It makes no specific reference to whether the ballistic missiles have nuclear warheads or not....

Arihant certainly is a nuclear powered submarine carrying ballistic missile, thus SSBN

If it had no ballistic missiles, and instead had only cruise missiles, it would be a SSGN. However, keep in mind that in history, you have had soviet and israeli submarines that had nuclear tipped cruise missiles and further, that there are nuclear torpedoes. Also, the us has had and is redeveloping nuclear warheads for tomahawks, launchable from vls. Thus it is constrained more by doctrine and treaty than technology . in fact, one of the favourite russian pastimes is accusing a vls (eg mk 41 used in aegis) of being able to fire nuclear tomahawks, with no more than a software change/setting. ie The name is less important than the capability.

USN Hill classification scheme: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hull_clas ... arine_type

Thus diesel powered Barberowith capability to launch Regulus nuclear tipped cruise missiles was a SSG.

Now Arihant could have been thought of or used as the forerunner of the attack class design, but everyone knows that it is designed for and carries ballistic missiles. If those tubes are removed, one might consider reclassifying it.

While good on details, I am not clear on exactly what your point is. A primer of the USN naming convention doesn't answer my question :). I was simply remarking how the designation doesn't conform to the Navy's own convention.

tsarkar-ji clarified the IN naming convention in a recent post.

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Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Postby Lisa » 08 Nov 2018 23:32

disha wrote:
Now MAD is an outdated concept. Only civilizations that believed in the end of world and second coming etc brought forth the totally useless MAD concept. No ruler wants to rule over a dead country. And as a ruler, would you start a war and lose a million or two in the hope that you can kill the other's billion?



Dishaji, an article for you. Insanity has many faces,

Mao's theory on atomic bomb: They can't kill us all

https://newspaperarchive.com/morgantown ... -1964-p-2/

"What if they killed 300 million of us? We would still have many people left." :shock:

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Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Postby SaiK » 09 Nov 2018 00:46

vips, you are right. we need half to nearly a dozen of these. hence, we have to lie low and build the capability. it (the deterrence) has worked this far, and we don't want to spoil that.

meanwhile, please support trump sarkar to discourage weapons treaty with russkies, and we prepare for the pok3 series.

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Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Postby AdityaM » 09 Nov 2018 02:23

Rakesh wrote:And a vessel of the size and importance of the Arihant, there will be such fail safe systems and back ups as well. That is a nonsense story to justify some refit of some component or missile system.

Justify to whom? If the leak story hadn’t been published, no one would have known anyways.

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Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Postby Vips » 09 Nov 2018 02:34

disha wrote:So Vips, one Arihant is enough. And one Arihant with one launch tube with one missile reaching the heart of the forbidden city is enough. Remember this is second strike. There is no way any adversary will be able to guarantee a destruction of a nuke sub which can loiter in ocean for months and can strike at will.


Nope against China with BMD and S400 (and S500 in the future) the assured second strike capability which is based on Arihant equipped with only 3500KM range missile with single warheads is on very flimsy and shaky grounds.

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Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 09 Nov 2018 03:55

Bararth_s,

I did not know about the K4 hangfire in Dec 2017. Besides you posted after my post.


I vehmently object to your attributing motives to me..
I dint have to be selective of facts.

I suggest you apologize.
I dont take such things lightly.

Ramana

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Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Postby Singha » 09 Nov 2018 06:08

S400 is not a icbm intercept platform . There might be higher tier systems they are working on like the test pictured over tibet by a passing airliner but s400 can be dropped from the discussion

At present i would say the us gba and the moscow abm systems are the only two anti icbm grade systems and backed by dew line and large football field sized radars

Any news of cheen building similar radars?

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Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Postby Prasad » 09 Nov 2018 06:23

China has OTH radars facing the east/south east. Iirc there is one at Tianbo, Mongolia. Hence launching from that angle might not be the best idea irrespective of the effectiveness of their radars.

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Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 09 Nov 2018 07:22

AdityaM wrote:
Rakesh wrote:And a vessel of the size and importance of the Arihant, there will be such fail safe systems and back ups as well. That is a nonsense story to justify some refit of some component or missile system.

Justify to whom? If the leak story hadn’t been published, no one would have known anyways.

Saar, my bad. Justify is the wrong term. Perhaps obfuscation would be a better term. But the idea that water can enter through a open hatch - during a dive - makes no sense whatsoever. No alarm, no fail safe measure. That is highly improbable. The open hatch story is an excuse.

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Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Postby Prem Kumar » 09 Nov 2018 09:33

Its possible that the news that Arihant was in the dock for a refit might have gotten leaked. "Hatch leak" could've been a nice cover up story.

Even if Arihant carried only K15's, if she carried a full loadout, that's 12 nuke-bums, fully mated, on a single carrier! Its the largest tonnage carried by any Indian platform in history

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Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Postby Singha » 09 Nov 2018 09:54

cheen ABM test near urumqi was seen by a passing cathay pacific airliner

https://theaviationist.com/2017/07/29/c ... sile-test/

they are making efforts to counter the Agni2 and Agni3 using thaad++ type projects

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/18 ... ile-launch

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Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Postby kit » 09 Nov 2018 10:03

nam wrote:Regarding the "hatch story", it is inconceivable that we would have water getting in through a hatch and the same sub goes out on it's first patrol .. all within a year.

If the supposed water damage was extensive, Arihant will not have been fixed in one year. Period. It is not easy to fix sub parts when there is an accident. It has to be cut open for major damages. And would IN have put any new changes through a re-test given that it is first of the class?

Not that i claim to be expect, what hatch in a sub will let in water? Cannot be missile tube or torpedo tube. If it had happen, wouldn't the CO got his sack?


What if it was another sub ..arihant class sub not the arihant ? :mrgreen:

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Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 09 Nov 2018 10:34

Prem Kumar wrote:Its possible that the news that Arihant was in the dock for a refit might have gotten leaked. "Hatch leak" could've been a nice cover up story.

Even if Arihant carried only K15's, if she carried a full loadout, that's 12 nuke-bums, fully mated, on a single carrier! Its the largest tonnage carried by any Indian platform in history



Thats the key. The deterrent patrol is open with mated warheads.
No more recessed deterrent nonsense promoted by Ashley Tellis during UPA regime,

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Re: INS Arihant: News & Discussion

Postby ArjunPandit » 09 Nov 2018 10:38

^^meanwhile shooklaw is burning with anger on twitter. Does not respond to me when i call his lies out.


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