COMCASA Signing By India: A Trap or Unshackling?

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COMCASA Signing By India: A Trap or Unshackling?

Postby ArjunPandit » 06 Sep 2018 18:58

India & US sign COMCASA

External Affairs minister Sushma Swaraj, today announced the signing of the Communications Compatibility and Security Agreement (COMCASA) between the two nations.

The COMCASA will facilitate India to obtain critical defence technologies from the US, and access critical communication network to ensure interoperability among the US and the Indian armed forces.




The implications of the signing of COMCASA are way more than just communications. It signals that India is firmly aligned with US.

Few perspectives that I could think of were

Military Capacity:
1. What new shiny toys do we get
2. Does it lead to improvement in Indian MIC?

Diplomatic/Strategic
3. What impact does it have on our long-term relationships with russia? Will it mean India eventually moves out of Russian camp to the US camp?
4. How much does it impact our "strategic autonomy"
5. What impact does it have on our immediate neighbourhood, e.g., China/Pakistan
5. Is it a trap for us, because the fine print does not mean more than the sale deed of WTC

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Re: COMCASA Signing By India: A trap or Unshackling

Postby nvishal » 06 Sep 2018 19:21

Multi-alignment originally came from the policy makers in the manmohan govt. The MMRCA competition had angered some in russia back when it was announced.

Multi-alignment is not new. The pakistanis do it with US and China - playing one against the other.

Similar agreements will be signed with russia in the coming months.

-----------------

I don't think the agreement puts any liability on us to replace the existing with comcasa equipments on the current fleet of globemaster, Hercules, Poseidon etc. The ah64 also comes without comcasa. But the drones might come with comcasa.

shiv arror has just now made a post on this topic
5 Key Technologies Denied To India On US-built Aircraft Before COMCASA

We we have any more US purchases in the pipe?
Last edited by nvishal on 06 Sep 2018 19:34, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: COMCASA Signing By India: A trap or Unshackling

Postby Philip » 06 Sep 2018 19:27

This is not a 2+2 dialogue.It is 2 telling another 2 what to do, "sign on the dotted lins or else..."!

One needs to read the fine print for a final verdict.However what is evident ansd symbolic is that the current regime is tilting towards the US.I posted in another td. that there was another media report saying that the GOI was examining offering the same type of agreement to Russia and other countries to balance the scales!

There will be definite concern with the Russians as this commns. agreement could compromise their milware.The ( automatic) exchange of data from our weapon systems and platforms of Ru origin would give the US deep inside knowledge of their workings and performance.They would in future reconsider providing us with their latest high tech weaponry of the kind that the US will never give us ,nuclear sub tech., advanced missiles, etc. and which comes most importantly without strings attached.

It may also spur them into providing Pak with extra Ru weaponry which the Chins may pay for.The US is by its asinine anti- Ru stance and trade war with China only encouraging a closer relationship between the two.It is in their interests to cement further the relationship to counter the US.India will significantly lose out by becoming a Yanqui " rent-boy" for abuse against China in the future.

China will look at this signing as the final act of us becoming a Yanqui stooge, and die-hard enemy.It will up the ante against us and arm Pak to the hilt further cementing their unholy relationship to the detriment of India.

Ultimately what are we getting in return? Fukushima type obsolete N- tech at v.high cost with no guarantee of safety and liability in case of a disaster, and offers of equally obsolete vintage US weaponry like F-16/F-18s!
Other weapon systems offered may spell the death-knell of some of our indigenous programmes which are on the cusp of success like Nirbhay. by the reported offer of the Tomahawk.To my mind this agreement is ill-advised.The US despite the overwhelming truth of 26/11 where its own citizens were murdered by Paki terrorists, has done F-all to even rap them on the knuckles!

The US simply wants us as cannon-fodder against the Chins in the same way that the British used millions of Indian soldiers against Germany in both WW1 and WW2.
We will stupidly also pay for the same by buying " compatible" US weapons , as the US outsources and downsized its expeditionary mil. expenditure after having got its backside well and truly burnt in Afghanistan, Iraq and Syria in recent decades , having literally blown up trillions in the ptocess!

It is astounding that our MEA and MOD cannot see who is in full retreat in Syria , America, and who has thrashed ISIS and the motley menagerie of Syrian "rebels", backed to the hilt by the US, West and. Wahaabi Sunnis.We are tilting with the losing side and one sincerely hopes not to our detriment in the future.

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Re: COMCASA Signing By India: A trap or Unshackling

Postby Manish_P » 06 Sep 2018 20:29

Philip wrote:There will be definite concern with the Russians as this commns. agreement could compromise their milware.The ( automatic) exchange of data from our weapon systems and platforms of Ru origin would give the US deep inside knowledge of their workings and performance.


My understanding was that COMCASA would allow India to procure encrypted communication systems from the U.S. for US military platforms like the C-17, C-130 and P-8Is (and possibly the Apaches, and probably the Drones in the near future). Is my understanding incorrect ?

If so then what sort of Data? Could you kindly elaborate.

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Re: COMCASA Signing By India: A trap or Unshackling

Postby Lalmohan » 06 Sep 2018 21:25

real time data networking of US hardware with Indian command and control systems is probably what it is geared towards
we will clearly need a parallel interoperability protocol on our military networks for Russian systems
it is unlikely that we will be able to easily match (in real time) data from sensors on one protocol with weapons on another (e.g. SU30 lights up target for an Apache, or P8 for a Su30) but we could eventually develop some fast mapping technology that might make it possible

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Re: COMCASA Signing By India: A trap or Unshackling

Postby KrishnaK » 06 Sep 2018 21:39

It is little known that the Indian Navy’s US-built P-8Is played a key role in keeping tabs on the major India-China military stand-off in the Doklam region of Bhutan last year. But it took Washington’s sharing of intelligence of Chinese troop movements during the stand-off that proved to close the deal as far as India’s reservations on COMCASA were concerned.

The signing of the agreement throws open the possibility of India tapping into US intelligence on other Chinese movements, most notably PLA-Navy submarines in the Indian Ocean region. While the Indian Navy P-8I fleet has made headway in keeping tabs on movements, deeper sensor data will allow the kind of efficacy the Indian government keenly needs, and soon.

from 5 Key Technologies Denied To India On US-built Aircraft Before COMCASA

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Re: COMCASA Signing By India: A trap or Unshackling

Postby souravB » 06 Sep 2018 21:44

Philip wrote:It may also spur them into providing Pak with extra Ru weaponry which the Chins may pay for.The US is by its asinine anti- Ru stance and trade war with China only encouraging a closer relationship between the two.It is in their interests to cement further the relationship to counter the US.India will significantly lose out by becoming a Yanqui " rent-boy" for abuse against China in the future.

Russia will supply weapons to Pakistan independent of whether we sign anything or not. Russia is growing closer to Pak due to their own agenda of fighting Islamic Terrorism. To do that they will cajole the Motherland of Terrorism to stop breeding new Jihadis and a few helicopters and tanks are going to change hands.
When that happens we should be cheering as maintaining those white elephants will cause a further decline in Pak's operational budget.

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Re: COMCASA Signing By India: A trap or Unshackling

Postby Viv S » 06 Sep 2018 21:52

According to Shiv Aroor and Pranab Dhal Samanta, what tipped the Indian govt in favour of signing the agreement was the lag in US intelligence inputs received during the Doklam crisis.

Livefist
It is little known that the Indian Navy’s US-built P-8Is played a key role in keeping tabs on the major India-China military stand-off in the Doklam region of Bhutan last year. But it took Washington’s sharing of intelligence of Chinese troop movements during the stand-off that proved to close the deal as far as India’s reservations on COMCASA were concerned.

The signing of the agreement throws open the possibility of India tapping into US intelligence on other Chinese movements, most notably PLA-Navy submarines in the Indian Ocean region. While the Indian Navy P-8I fleet has made headway in keeping tabs on movements, deeper sensor data will allow the kind of efficacy the Indian government keenly needs, and soon.

Economic Times
The Dokalam face off was the turning point for the Indian position on the Comcasa when it realised the benefit of US intelligence on Chinese troop deployments in calibrating its approach. This sort of intelligence was not available with India.
.
.
.
THE DOKALAM LESSON

One of most significant outcomes of the Comcasa is likely to be the creation of a military communications hub that will house the Comcasa-compliant equipment to enable real-time data link with a similar facility in the US.

During the Dokalam face-off, informed sources told ET that India did encounter difficulties in obtaining latest information on troop reinforcements and deployments deep inside Chinese territory. While the US did help with some information, it came with a certain time-lag as it had to be physically passed through different security layers to reach India. This sort of exchange will technically now be possible electronically and on a real-time basis. Given the way China has revamped its battle communication systems and strengthened its electronic warfare capabilities, sources said, access to US data will make qualitatively significant impact on Indian military planning against China.


Edit: First article, already posted by KrishnaK above.

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Re: COMCASA Signing By India: A trap or Unshackling

Postby souravB » 06 Sep 2018 22:01

And regarding signing the document is beneficial or harmful, look at it this way.
If it is harmful, we can just say No after 10 years when it will be time for re-signing.
If it is beneficial, it can change how our forces operate for the better, TOTs in any shape or form will be easier, less delivery time of platforms due to less modifications.

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Re: COMCASA Signing By India: A trap or Unshackling

Postby Zynda » 06 Sep 2018 22:04

I pointed or alluded in another thread about Intel sharing by US which was a major pull...know this is not the right thread but is our intel gathering capabilities via Sats is not satisfactory enough to request assistance from US?

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Re: COMCASA Signing By India: A trap or Unshackling

Postby sudeepj » 06 Sep 2018 22:11

Military Capacity:
1. What new shiny toys do we get
2. Does it lead to improvement in Indian MIC?


Wrong question to ask. Modern military power is about a system, not about any shiny toy. It will definitely lead to improvement in Indian MIC. We can fabricate and system integrate at an international level now. This step will allow us to plug into the best possible electronics in the world now and this will lead to a step change in the competitiveness of Indian weapon systems.

Diplomatic/Strategic
3. What impact does it have on our long-term relationships with russia? Will it mean India eventually moves out of Russian camp to the US camp?


Wrong question again. How can India, an economy of 2.5 trillion dollars, with a population of 1.3 Billion people, a democracy, a rising international power be in the Russian camp - a shrinking economy of 1.3 trillion dollars, heavily based on oil/resources, that is sanctioned internationally? Within 10-20 years, I see India being a part of the G-3 as one of the poles in the world. Russia and Little Britain will likely fall off the high table.

4. How much does it impact our "strategic autonomy"


Signing COMCASA and aligning with the international top dog, being able to interoperate with the best fighting military in the world (except the Indian Army ofcourse :-) ) is in itself strategic autonomy. If any thing restricts Indian hard power options today, it is Chinese coercion and unreliability of Russian systems. As long as we dont take risks that can 'break the world', we have the full range of options open to us.

5. What impact does it have on our immediate neighbourhood, e.g., China/Pakistan


Brown pants.

5. Is it a trap for us, because the fine print does not mean more than the sale deed of WTC


A nation the size of India will outgrow any trap people lay out for us. Onward into the future with confidence!

Bharat mata ki jai!
Long live the USA!

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Re: COMCASA Signing By India: A trap or Unshackling

Postby sudeepj » 06 Sep 2018 22:18

Philip wrote:This is not a 2+2 dialogue.It is 2 telling another 2 what to do, "sign on the dotted lins or else..."!

... There will be definite concern with the Russians as this commns. agreement could compromise their milware.

It may also spur them into providing Pak with extra Ru weaponry which the Chins may pay for.
...
It is astounding that our MEA and MOD cannot see who is in full retreat in Syria , America, and who has thrashed ISIS and the motley menagerie of Syrian "rebels", backed to the hilt by the US, West and. Wahaabi Sunnis.We are tilting with the losing side and one sincerely hopes not to our detriment in the future.


Allow me to laugh at your discomfiture. :rotfl: :rotfl: :lol: :lol: :twisted: :roll:

You have been a singular rus rakshak on this website who has personal connections to the mods, otherwise you would have been drummed out of the forum long ago. No direct Russian interest is harmed by us signing COMCASA, except perhaps a reduction in us buying weapons from them. If Russian weapons are not competitive, why should we buy from them? And if this makes them run like a whore to the whore house called Pakistan, to sell their rapidly depreciating weapons advantage, what kind of an ally/partner were they in the first place?

Indian Rus Rakshaks who have run a Jihad against the US are pathetic.

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Re: COMCASA Signing By India: A Trap or Unshackling?

Postby arshyam » 06 Sep 2018 22:48

So if we needed the great khan to share intel about Chinese troop movement off our borders, then why TF do we have ISRO, NTRO, etc.? Shut the lot down, and use the money to eradicate poverty as outsiders kindly remind us after every sat launch.

Same damn story in '62, 50 years and $2T later, same shite.

EDIT: On second thought, this might be some canard being floated to justify signing it. At least, one can hope.

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Re: COMCASA Signing By India: A Trap or Unshackling?

Postby kit » 06 Sep 2018 23:45

arshyam wrote:So if we needed the great khan to share intel about Chinese troop movement off our borders, then why TF do we have ISRO, NTRO, etc.? Shut the lot down, and use the money to eradicate poverty as outsiders kindly remind us after every sat launch.
.


food for thought !!!

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Re: COMCASA Signing By India: A Trap or Unshackling?

Postby Picklu » 06 Sep 2018 23:46

Don't think it will have any direct security implications. The sharing both ways will happen by consent.

The harm will be mostly indirect like
a. getting dependent on higher capabilities and being influenced by the threat of its loss
b. future mic decisions will be influenced pushing us more towards a particular direction

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Re: COMCASA Signing By India: A Trap or Unshackling?

Postby Viv S » 07 Sep 2018 00:25

arshyam wrote:So if we needed the great khan to share intel about Chinese troop movement off our borders, then why TF do we have ISRO, NTRO, etc.? Shut the lot down, and use the money to eradicate poverty as outsiders kindly remind us after every sat launch.

The US defence budget for FY2019 allocates $60 billion to the National Intelligence Program (CIA, NSA, NRO, etc.) and $21 billion to the Military Intelligence Program (Army/Navy/AF/SOCOM).

Hardly fair to expect NTRO, R&AW & DIA to produce comparable results given the vast resource disparity.

The NTRO, for example, has an annual budget of about $200 mil (extrapolating from Rs 750 crore in 2011) compared to ~$12 billion for the NSA.

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Re: COMCASA Signing By India: A Trap or Unshackling?

Postby Karan M » 07 Sep 2018 01:13

This has huge security implications for us. If we go for widespread 2 way datalinking, we will have to create two sets of networks - one for our tactical assets, i.e. delineate between our datalinks and the ones tapped into COMCASA, and the data from COMCASA enabled networks, e.g. Link-16 type has to be sanitized before it gets into our frontline assets. Perhaps we can create secure nodes on larger assets like AWACS, IFR platforms. What you don't want to have is malware sent across unsanitized nodes to your tactical assets.

On the ground, we will have to firewall and create entirely parallel - "core Indian" networks for many of our critical C4I, Strategic and Services establishments. A) Not easy. B ) Very expensive.

But the decision has been made and it would have been made seeing the benefits as well.

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Re: COMCASA Signing By India: A Trap or Unshackling?

Postby Khalsa » 07 Sep 2018 02:18

Comcasa is bigger than Doklam.
We have stood eyeball to eyeball before to the Chinese multiple times after the 62 war.

This is bigger than Doklam.

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Re: COMCASA Signing By India: A trap or Unshackling

Postby Vips » 07 Sep 2018 02:21

sudeepj wrote:
Philip wrote:This is not a 2+2 dialogue.It is 2 telling another 2 what to do, "sign on the dotted lins or else..."!

... There will be definite concern with the Russians as this commns. agreement could compromise their milware.

It may also spur them into providing Pak with extra Ru weaponry which the Chins may pay for.
...
It is astounding that our MEA and MOD cannot see who is in full retreat in Syria , America, and who has thrashed ISIS and the motley menagerie of Syrian "rebels", backed to the hilt by the US, West and. Wahaabi Sunnis.We are tilting with the losing side and one sincerely hopes not to our detriment in the future.


Allow me to laugh at your discomfiture. :rotfl: :rotfl: :lol: :lol: :twisted: :roll:

You have been a singular rus rakshak on this website who has personal connections to the mods, otherwise you would have been drummed out of the forum long ago. No direct Russian interest is harmed by us signing COMCASA, except perhaps a reduction in us buying weapons from them. If Russian weapons are not competitive, why should we buy from them? And if this makes them run like a whore to the whore house called Pakistan, to sell their rapidly depreciating weapons advantage, what kind of an ally/partner were they in the first place?

Indian Rus Rakshaks who have run a Jihad against the US are pathetic.


+108. Let the Russians go and give arms to the Paki's and taste the Paki love in Dagestan and other Stan's in Russia thereafter.

The Russians should watch the paki programs and see how they run them down and see/hear them boasting on how they defeated Russia in Afghanistan. :lol:

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Re: COMCASA Signing By India: A trap or Unshackling

Postby Vips » 07 Sep 2018 02:35

Manish_P wrote:
Philip wrote:There will be definite concern with the Russians as this commns. agreement could compromise their milware.The ( automatic) exchange of data from our weapon systems and platforms of Ru origin would give the US deep inside knowledge of their workings and performance.


My understanding was that COMCASA would allow India to procure encrypted communication systems from the U.S. for US military platforms like the C-17, C-130 and P-8Is (and possibly the Apaches, and probably the Drones in the near future). Is my understanding incorrect ?

If so then what sort of Data? Could you kindly elaborate.


Check this:

When a US warship or aircraft detects a Chinese warship or submarine, the warships, submarines and aircraft of the Indian Navy operating in the region will get to know instantly about the presence of the Chinese vessels through the transmission of encrypted data shared by the US Navy.Not only will the Indian Navy get the exact bearing and speed of the Chinese vessels, they may also be able to receive a live video feed of the 'target' as well.

The receivers fitted in Indian Navy assets will be a part of America's Combined Enterprise Regional Information Exchange System or CENTRIXS for short, a system described by the US Navy as a "collection of classified coalition networks" that support combatant commands throughout the world. CENTRIXS is a backbone of secure tactical communication between America's closest military allies, of which India is one.

And the reason New Delhi will now have access to CENTRIXS is because of its decision to sign the Communications Compatibility and Security Agreement (COMCASA), a "foundational agreement" that has the potential of transforming the way in which the intelligence and armed forces of the US and India work together.

In simple terms, this is the next step up for the armed forces of both countries, well beyond the annual set of joint exercises they have been holding for years. From a military technology standpoint, CENTRIXS is one of the systems that enable India and the United States to fight together as military allies in a combat zone since both sides would have access to a common operational picture, a single identical display which shows the position of enemy targets, friendly forces and other critical information which greatly enhances the situational awareness of military commanders.And that's not all that signing COMCASA brings with it.

The armed Sea Guardian drones the Navy is likely to acquire will be fitted with some of the most sophisticated American military hardware -- the Global Positioning Systems and Identification Friend or Foe (IFF) receivers on board will be anti-spoof and invulnerable to attempts to electronically jam or manipulate their signals. Data transmitted by the Very High Frequency (VHF) emitters will be strongly encrypted and the security-key for the encryption systems will be entirely in Indian hands.

Once they enter service, the Predator Sea Guardian manufactured by General Atomics will transform the Indian Navy's ability to monitor large parts of the Indian Ocean. Capable of flying non-stop for 27 hours at an altitude of 50,000 feet, the Sea Guardian is remotely piloted or can operate fully autonomous missions. Equipped with a multi-mode maritime radar, the drone can engage targets such as enemy ships by firing either Hellfire missiles or smart bombs mounted on its wings.

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Re: COMCASA Signing By India: A Trap or Unshackling?

Postby Rishi_Tri » 07 Sep 2018 03:21

arshyam wrote:So if we needed the great khan to share intel about Chinese troop movement off our borders, then why TF do we have ISRO, NTRO, etc.? Shut the lot down, and use the money to eradicate poverty as outsiders kindly remind us after every sat launch.

Same damn story in '62, 50 years and $2T later, same shite.

EDIT: On second thought, this might be some canard being floated to justify signing it. At least, one can hope.


Could not agree more. That article if it says Doklam as being key deciding factor, is crappy @#$%. Shut down all these ruses in name of military satellites, SSB, RAW, IB, military intelligence if some piece of software alongwith hardware is needed for detecting some visual Chinese threat.

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Re: COMCASA Signing By India: A Trap or Unshackling?

Postby V_Raman » 07 Sep 2018 04:32

I still believe we will be sending troops to AFG - hence all this.

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Re: COMCASA Signing By India: A Trap or Unshackling?

Postby krishna_krishna » 07 Sep 2018 04:39

Here is my two nana paisa on this, India has made one stupid decision, which will allow India to make more stupid decisions. Having said this since it is already been done, here is what I see :

1) Primary aim is real time data sharing between us and them. This will help during crisis as well as joint operations.
2) This agreement will allow India access to critical technology which will revolutionise the defence manufacturing. I sincerely hope this would not be like software evolution as most Indians helped US MNC's instead of establishing startups here.
3) I see some implications in Afghanistan where we will have some joint operations.

Most stinking part is part of 2+2 guests landed after porkistan. To me why Indian strategic community put blinders to is a mystery to me, why we need to sign at this time when these two gentlemen could have come just for this important strategic deal (as touted by few elites).

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Re: COMCASA Signing By India: A Trap or Unshackling?

Postby Cain Marko » 07 Sep 2018 06:58

While I understand all the rnd, I feel that this was bound to happen, a part of the natural alliance that ABV spoke of. The pieces on the board are moving and we can expect some very dramatic shifts in the near future.

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Re: COMCASA Signing By India: A Trap or Unshackling?

Postby Cain Marko » 07 Sep 2018 07:07

V_Raman wrote:I still believe we will be sending troops to AFG - hence all this.

This...

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Re: COMCASA Signing By India: A Trap or Unshackling?

Postby Dileep » 07 Sep 2018 07:39

We will get "Technology"? Sure!! Like each of us freely get technologies like "Android" and "LTE". The agreement simply means we can now buy the equivalent of smart phones and satellite TV receivers for the aam aadmi currently using BSNL land line and Doordarshan terrestrial TV.

We get the phone and connection. We can call unkil on it. Unkil can call us when he pleases and tell us what he pleases. We get the Satellite TV and the channels decided by unkil that we can watch.

If we are smart, we will keep the smart phone in the living room, and not carry it to the rest of the house where we do private stuff. The phone have camera and microphone, so we don't know what unkil will see and hear.

What we WILL NOT get is any of the underlying technology. We will not even get to open the equipment. There are no user serviceable parts inside.

Communication technology is one of the closely guarded ones, probably above sensor technology. We design some ancillary equipment for a radio, and it is forbidden to get a radio unit to desh for validation testing. We fly our equipment and folk abroad to do the work.

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Re: COMCASA Signing By India: A Trap or Unshackling?

Postby SaiK » 07 Sep 2018 07:46

answer the Qs: 1) do we need technology from maasa? and 2) do we need to inter-op?

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Re: COMCASA Signing By India: A trap or Unshackling

Postby Manish_P » 07 Sep 2018 08:04

Vips wrote:
When a US warship or aircraft detects a Chinese warship or submarine, the warships, submarines and aircraft of the Indian Navy operating in the region will get to know instantly about the presence of the Chinese vessels through the transmission of encrypted data shared by the US Navy


Only if the US chooses to share it, right?

Anyway that was not my question. My specific question, to Philip sir, was how exactly would our Russian military equipment and weapons be compromised by US devices mounted on US platforms (operated by us).

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Re: COMCASA Signing By India: A trap or Unshackling

Postby ArjunPandit » 07 Sep 2018 09:03

sudeepj wrote:
Military Capacity:
1. What new shiny toys do we get
2. Does it lead to improvement in Indian MIC?


Wrong question to ask. Modern military power is about a system, not about any shiny toy. It will definitely lead to improvement in Indian MIC. We can fabricate and system integrate at an international level now. This step will allow us to plug into the best possible electronics in the world now and this will lead to a step change in the competitiveness of Indian weapon systems.

Shiny toys are front ends and are visible, perhaps I shoudl have been more clear. That said, all the intelligence and systems are not of great use if one doesnt have hammer to hit opponents with.

Diplomatic/Strategic
3. What impact does it have on our long-term relationships with russia? Will it mean India eventually moves out of Russian camp to the US camp?

sudeepj wrote:Wrong question again. How can India, an economy of 2.5 trillion dollars, with a population of 1.3 Billion people, a democracy, a rising international power be in the Russian camp - a shrinking economy of 1.3 trillion dollars, heavily based on oil/resources, that is sanctioned internationally? Within 10-20 years, I see India being a part of the G-3 as one of the poles in the world. Russia and Little Britain will likely fall off the high table.

Try crossing russian interests. We would know it. They still have leverage over us with Akula, Su and T90. Try screwing them, we will pay more than what pukis have paid to Uncle.

4. How much does it impact our "strategic autonomy"


sudeepj wrote:Signing COMCASA and aligning with the international top dog, being able to interoperate with the best fighting military in the world (except the Indian Army ofcourse :-) ) is in itself strategic autonomy. If any thing restricts Indian hard power options today, it is Chinese coercion and unreliability of Russian systems. As long as we dont take risks that can 'break the world', we have the full range of options open to us.

Seriously, you must be joking. Unless we go puki and dont care about our image or sanctions, they will have a lot of ways to arm twist us, esp in the case of war. Imagine predators not being available during war or at worse operational details compromised. Obviously there will be ruse from Indian side, but how many 10. The fact that they can see our actions and intent itself will be a big challenge. If you think Russia is falling away from high table, well what can I say. Russia may not be big(economicall) but they have everything that it takes to fight.

5. What impact does it have on our immediate neighbourhood, e.g., China/Pakistan

sudeepj wrote:Brown pants.

Ignorance is bliss, like pakis have learnt. In a way its a signal to China. Where we are headed to
sudeepj wrote:
5. Is it a trap for us, because the fine print does not mean more than the sale deed of WTC


A nation the size of India will outgrow any trap people lay out for us. Onward into the future with confidence!

Bharat mata ki jai!
Long live the USA!

Time and again, people assumed size is final word have had nasty surprises await them, in the case of war. Our size will grow, but growth of our economy is not guaranteed. They may have many levers to pull.

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Re: COMCASA Signing By India: A Trap or Unshackling?

Postby ArjunPandit » 07 Sep 2018 09:11

Viv S wrote:
arshyam wrote:So if we needed the great khan to share intel about Chinese troop movement off our borders, then why TF do we have ISRO, NTRO, etc.? Shut the lot down, and use the money to eradicate poverty as outsiders kindly remind us after every sat launch.

The US defence budget for FY2019 allocates $60 billion to the National Intelligence Program (CIA, NSA, NRO, etc.) and $21 billion to the Military Intelligence Program (Army/Navy/AF/SOCOM).

Hardly fair to expect NTRO, R&AW & DIA to produce comparable results given the vast resource disparity.

The NTRO, for example, has an annual budget of about $200 mil (extrapolating from Rs 750 crore in 2011) compared to ~$12 billion for the NSA.

Agreed but the scope is way bigger for US of A. They need to look what Iran, NoKo, India are doing in addition to spying on their friends. I supspect,
1. we may have had information, esp closer to Dokalam area, but wont be having a complete picture, esp regarding their troop movements from other distant areas.
2. Our Elint/Humint is not be as robust as US. US might have shared their chatter b/w military and CPC.
3. Is it possible that we might be getting info about US mfgd assets in pukiland,

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Re: COMCASA Signing By India: A Trap or Unshackling?

Postby ArjunPandit » 07 Sep 2018 09:17

SaiK wrote:answer the Qs: 1) do we need technology from maasa? and 2) do we need to inter-op?

1. Of course yes, Engine tech, Submarine, Aircraft carrier, submarine, but is it available? at what cost. Haven't heard much on DTTI
2. Do we need inter-op? calling cards for 1800-order-2nd-largest-army have just been launched in washington. The cards can call IOR, SCS and Afghanistan

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Re: COMCASA Signing By India: A Trap or Unshackling?

Postby Prasad » 07 Sep 2018 09:28

Dileep wrote:We will get "Technology"?
What we WILL NOT get is any of the underlying technology. We will not even get to open the equipment. There are no user serviceable parts inside.

Communication technology is one of the closely guarded ones, probably above sensor technology. We design some ancillary equipment for a radio, and it is forbidden to get a radio unit to desh for validation testing. We fly our equipment and folk abroad to do the work.

We've already seen this with the DTTI. We will get nothing. None of the fawning articles mention anything about what we're giving up by linking up with the american system.

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Re: COMCASA Signing By India: A Trap or Unshackling?

Postby arshyam » 07 Sep 2018 09:51

krishna_krishna wrote:2) This agreement will allow India access to critical technology which will revolutionise the defence manufacturing. I sincerely hope this would not be like software evolution as most Indians helped US MNC's instead of establishing startups here.

There is no way, absolutely no way, that the US will allow manufacturing of CISMOA equipment outside their control. So we'll just be end users of smartphones, as Dileep saar put it. At least with the software industry, there is enough meaningful work done here to chart our own path down the road. But this alphabet soup nonsense is intended to take us in the exact opposite direction. Cap, rollback, and eliminate, as the Americans love to keep saying.

An exercise for the curious: let's see which of the CISMOA signatories actually manufacture comms equipment that NATO/US use. If they do, under what conditions?

Heck, which of the CISMOA signatories actually have an independent foreign policy? And no, France is not as independent as we like to think.

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Re: COMCASA Signing By India: A Trap or Unshackling?

Postby arshyam » 07 Sep 2018 09:57

BTW, some CISMOA equipment require US personnel to be present, inspect, etc. Are we okay with that?

https://www.business-standard.com/artic ... 698_1.html

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Re: COMCASA Signing By India: A Trap or Unshackling?

Postby arshyam » 07 Sep 2018 10:05

Please read this article again, just as a refresher. Sure, this talks about CISMOA and not COMCASA, but in the absence of public disclosure by our government, one has to refer to what's already available in the public domain. It does not look good:

https://www.business-standard.com/artic ... 698_1.html

To assess the key hurdles, Business Standard has scrutinised the text of the CISMOA that the Republic of Korea (South Korea, or ROK) Ministry of National Defence (MND) signed with the US DoD on October 27, 2008. That text requires Korea to provide US personnel access to Korean military bases; reserves for US personnel the right to install, maintain and inspect CISMOA-controlled equipment; bans the transfer of CISMOA-controlled equipment to any third party; bans its indigenous production; and stipulates stringent safeguards for securing, storing and accounting for COMSEC (communications security) equipment obtained from the US.

Paragraph V of the agreement requires ROK to pay the full cost of reconfiguring its communication systems to be interoperable with US military systems, and for testing the Korean systems, whenever required.

Paragraph IX of the agreement stipulates: “DoD-provided COMSEC equipment and materials, including keying materials, will be installed and maintained only by authorized US personnel… When authorized by the US, qualified ROK personnel may remove and/or replace US COMSEC equipment previously installed by US personnel.”


So we'll pay for the privilege of surrendering our capabilities. Wah, bhai wah, the Americans sure are brilliant in marketing!! And we are brilliant in tying our feet in response.

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Re: COMCASA Signing By India: A Trap or Unshackling?

Postby arshyam » 07 Sep 2018 10:08

Now, the PM need not respond to each and every outrage offered by the political opposition, but in this case, he needs to offer a clear and cogent explanation. The country has a right to know.

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Re: COMCASA Signing By India: A Trap or Unshackling?

Postby Avarachan » 07 Sep 2018 10:38

As Shri Abdul Kalam repeatedly stated, "Strength respects strength, not weakness." That's what's going through my head right now.

What's strange about this decision is that I don't see the need for it. China's nuclear submarines aren't so quiet that India needs cutting-edge technology to detect them. https://fas.org/blogs/security/2009/11/subnoise/
And, if this decision were made so that President Trump will preserve India's access to the U.S. market, that's even more foolish ... Restricting the freedom of action for the Indian military in exchange for more H1B visas is a lousy exchange. Regarding U.S. pressure, India has stood up to the U.S. many times, even when India was much weaker than it is now. (India only acquired a global nuclear deterrent in 2010, with the operationalization of Agony 3.)

If this alignment with the U.S. moves forward, the Indian Navy won't be able to freely operate Indian SSN's alongside Indian destroyers, due to their COMCASA-equipped American anti-submarine helicopters. This will enormously complicate Indian operational planning.

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Re: COMCASA Signing By India: A Trap or Unshackling?

Postby Avarachan » 07 Sep 2018 10:48

Karan M wrote:This has huge security implications for us. If we go for widespread 2 way datalinking, we will have to create two sets of networks - one for our tactical assets, i.e. delineate between our datalinks and the ones tapped into COMCASA, and the data from COMCASA enabled networks, e.g. Link-16 type has to be sanitized before it gets into our frontline assets. Perhaps we can create secure nodes on larger assets like AWACS, IFR platforms. What you don't want to have is malware sent across unsanitized nodes to your tactical assets.

On the ground, we will have to firewall and create entirely parallel - "core Indian" networks for many of our critical C4I, Strategic and Services establishments. A) Not easy. B ) Very expensive.


+1. If deeply implemented, COMCASA will lead to the partitioning of the Indian military. The COMCASA-equipped part of the Indian military will have to be firewalled off from the non-COMCASA equipped part of the Indian military. What a mess this will be.

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Re: COMCASA Signing By India: A Trap or Unshackling?

Postby pankajs » 07 Sep 2018 10:52

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 678934.cms
US’ Comcasa assurance: Won’t share India data without consent
The United States has agreed to address key Indian concerns on reliability and sharing of secure data through India-specific legally binding assurances in the just-negotiated Communications Compatibility and Security Agreement (Comcasa), with the rider that they will be valid as long as the agreement is not terminated.

ET has reliably gathered that both sides have agreed to an arrangement by which either side can terminate the agreement by giving each other an advance notice of six months.

The Dokalam face off was the turning point for the Indian position on the Comcasa when it realised the benefit of US intelligence on Chinese troop deployments in calibrating its approach. This sort of intelligence was not available with India.

The first important assurance the US has given is that, as long as the Comcasa is in play, it will ensure any equipment provided under the agreement will remain operational at all times. This was an important issue for India because it wanted a safeguard against the US using the Comcasa tool to limit or influence Indian decision-making in deployment and use of the US-origin equipment.

The second assurance was on the security of data obtained from India. While the Comcasa might make it technically possible for the US to access Indian data because the encryption and decryption codes for communication equipment will be sourced from the US, insiders said, India has managed to secure a specific assurance from Washington that it will not share Indian data with any entity without prior consent from New Delhi.

It’s, however, learnt that India will look to address this issue more definitively in the discussions on implementation of the agreement. In those conversations, New Delhi may press for specially devised encryption-decryption codes only for India.

Further, sources said, both sides have reached an understanding that in case of a conflict with any other agreement arrived at during the purchase of any specific military equipment from the US, the Comcasa shall prevail.

SIGNIFICANCE OF COMCASA

The Comcasa provides the legal framework for the US to part with its sensitive communication equipment and codes to enable transfer of realtime operational information. This equipment is largely used for ground-to air communication, installed US-origin military aircraft to enable best battle situation awareness. The US data link is considered the most secure communication platform, which will also allow India access to big data base of American intelligence, including real-time imagery.

Once the Comcasa is signed, the US government will be able to give the go-ahead to install the best communication equipment on relevant platforms being sold to India. {I.e. It will not be installed willy nilly on all Indian platforms or Russian platforms or on all bases.}

As part of this arrangement, the US will most likely gain access to data generated from India. Also, it will allow Indian and US forces to conduct joint operations with greater ease given the seamlessness that may be possible due to same communication channels. {Again, only on US supplied platforms.}

THE DOKALAM LESSON

One of most significant outcomes of the Comcasa is likely to be the creation of a military communications hub that will house the Comcasa-compliant equipment to enable real-time data link with a similar facility in the US.

During the Dokalam face-off, informed sources told ET that India did encounter difficulties in obtaining latest information on troop reinforcements and deployments deep inside Chinese territory. While the US did help with some information, it came with a certain time-lag as it had to be physically passed through different security layers to reach India. This sort of exchange will technically now be possible electronically and on a real-time basis. Given the way China has revamped its battle communication systems and strengthened its electronic warfare capabilities, sources said, access to US data will make qualitatively significant impact on Indian military planning against China.

The text of the Comcasa has been firmed up and is slated to be taken up by the Cabinet Committee on Security on Wednesday just ahead of the crucial Indo-US 2+2 meeting here on Thursday.

This meet , which has been postponed a couple of times, will havE US Secretary of State Mike Pompeo and Secretary of Defence Jim Mattis in joint bilateral conversation with their Indian counterparts Sushma Swaraj and Nirmala Sitharaman.

Ahead of the 2+2 meet, US has given India STA-1 status, a special authorisation for defence trade which is only meant for US allies. This allows for much easier approval process for military sales to India.

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Re: COMCASA Signing By India: A Trap or Unshackling?

Postby pankajs » 07 Sep 2018 11:24

arshyam wrote:BTW, some CISMOA equipment require US personnel to be present, inspect, etc. Are we okay with that?

https://www.business-standard.com/artic ... 698_1.html

Seems perfectly reasonable to me.

Which part is troublesome in your opinion?


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