Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

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Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Rakesh » 18 Dec 2018 01:47

Last Page of Previous Thread ---> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7342&start=5080


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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby kurup » 19 Dec 2018 18:43

2000 km range missile test from ITR on Dec 23/24 ,

https://twitter.com/kurup89/status/1075376099767418880

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby JayS » 20 Dec 2018 09:41

^ K5 test...?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Singha » 20 Dec 2018 11:56

yes perhaps in a lofted or depressed path. it was promised in Jan2019 though so maybe a A4 or K4.

one of the holy grails we should look for is a common booster rocket like say a Shourya topped with a modular package that could be a RV for MRBM role and a KV HTK for ABM role and a AAM type sensor and warhead for ULRAAM role for A2AD against large airplanes (tankers, awacs, elint) flying around far behind the front. or atleast a choice of ABM and ULRAAM role.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby fanne » 20 Dec 2018 17:47

Sub launched missiles are not covered in indo-pak agreement and need not be notified. Prior slbms had no announcement unless we are doing to establish deterrent

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ArjunPandit » 21 Dec 2018 16:25

I was looking for why SLBMs have thicker noses and came across this link
http://www.ajbasweb.com/old/ajbas/2017/August/30-40.pdf

Not that it includes the reason for the pointy noses, but it has good info on the different types of nose cones and components.

I came across another link below which quoted

"The heat generated during reentry is not only dependent on atmospheric density, but is also inversely proportional to the square root of the radius of the RV's nose cone and proportional to the cube of its velocity. Hence, blunt nose RVs are heated less than slender ones; and lifting RV designs, which use the glider principle, produce less heat than ballistic hyperbolic descent designs because their velocity is typically lower. Thus, a full evaluation of thermal impacts during reentry is dependent on both vehicle- and mission-specific criteria."

Initially it seemed counter-intuitive prima facie, as a blunt nose cone would have higher friction and therefore higher heat. However, also come across this for blunt nose cones
"H. Julian Allen, at the NACA's Ames Laboratory, showed analytically that a blunt heat-sink body could survive an ICBM reentry. We needed one bit of research data—ffight-test information—to verify the calculations and satisfy everyone that we were on the right track. This was the Reynolds Number (flight condition) at which the flow on various nose cone shapes made the transition from laminar to turbulent conditions. The X-17 vehicle got this data on large-scale model- " "Thor-Able later was used to prove that the ablation nose cone was practical. In retrospect it seems clear that much of our original concern over heat transfer was without foundation, and we forgot how hard it is to transfer heat when we want to."
from here
http://www.airforcemag.com/MagazineArch ... eering.pdf
This article is an interesting read for a historical context.

requesting brar or other wise men to add in case i missed out any reason for the blunt nose cones

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Haridas » 21 Dec 2018 22:34

^^Related post on other thread

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7248&p=2311072#p2311072

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby kurup » 22 Dec 2018 16:46

370 km range missile test from ITR on Dec 26/27 ,

https://twitter.com/kurup89/status/1076433580773978112

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ArjunPandit » 22 Dec 2018 16:54

Haridas wrote:^^Related post on other thread

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7248&p=2311072#p2311072
thanks sir, tbh I didn'tb understand that

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Vips » 22 Dec 2018 18:34

kurup wrote:370 km range missile test from ITR on Dec 26/27 ,

https://twitter.com/kurup89/status/1076433580773978112


This may be the Pralay Test which was postponed on Dec 19 due to inclement weather.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby PratikDas » 23 Dec 2018 13:38

Agni-IV missile successfully tested
India on Sunday successfully test-fired its nuclear-capable long-range ballistic missile Agni-IV, with a strike range of 4,000 km, as part of a user trial by the Army.

Radars and electro-optical systems had been positioned along the coast of Odisha for tracking and monitoring all parameters of the missile, the sources said, adding two naval ships were anchored near the target area to witness the final event.

This was the 7th trial of Agni-IV missile. The last trial conducted by the strategic force command (SFC) of the Indian Army from the same base on January 2, 2018 was successful.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby PratikDas » 23 Dec 2018 13:56

Why do I get the feeling that this flurry of tests is India demonstrating that our gun powder is dry?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby darshhan » 23 Dec 2018 15:25

PratikDas wrote:Why do I get the feeling that this flurry of tests is India demonstrating that our gun powder is dry?


That's right. For that matter the corollary is also true. Just check the missile testing(or rather the lack of it) by Pakis. Pathetic bluffers.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby JTull » 23 Dec 2018 15:50

This is to prevent any capping of strategic deterrence after unfavourable results in general elections. Plus there has been instances of opposition complaining to election commission about NDA govt allowing tests just before elections to further its nationalistic agenda.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby SaiK » 24 Dec 2018 15:02

OT?

Tsirkon is being manufactured in compliance with Russia’s Universal Vertical Launching System (UKSK), a seaborne missile launcher platform that notably includes the Russian “Caliber” and Russian-Indian “BrahMos” missiles. In fact, Tsirkon shares so much design and performance DNA with the latter that it could be considered as a fully Russian-made modernization of BrahMos.

Tsirkon’s top speed was previously reported to be around Mach 6 or 7,400 km per hour, but CNBC’s sources state that the recently tested Tsirkon missiles reached a top speed of Mach 8 or 9,800 kilometers per hour. It is unclear whether this discrepancy comes from technical improvements, different Tsirkon models being simultaneously developed and tested, or misstatements about Tsirkon’s performance.
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/ ... ches-39637

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Singha » 24 Dec 2018 15:22

i dont think the brahmos airframe can take Mach8 speed. tsirkon would have the typical wedge shape that is shown for scramjet missiles.
http://sohanews.sohacdn.com/zoom/640_36 ... 280857.jpg

russian made take on the brahmos is the yakhont.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ArjunPandit » 24 Dec 2018 15:56

from the days when A1 and Prithvi tests will be discussed and debated just 10 years back to when A4 test saw a mere passing mention. Not just India but BRF too has come a long way.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Singha » 24 Dec 2018 17:38

in eco forum we used to salivate and yelp over 100,000 cellphone subs added in a month!
now yawn, we add around 9 million a month. total subs stand around 1.05 billion
all systems naarmal.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby saip » 24 Dec 2018 22:43

^^^^
OT. But between Sep 18 & Oct 18 the count actually went DOWN by 9 mil. But no worry, it is still over 1 billion and 21 million. All naarmaal.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Rahul M » 24 Dec 2018 23:17

no more OT plz.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ramana » 26 Dec 2018 10:20

ArjunPandit wrote:from the days when A1 and Prithvi tests will be discussed and debated just 10 years back to when A4 test saw a mere passing mention. Not just India but BRF too has come a long way.

Recent tests are both lofted trajectory.
Instead of maxminimum energy trajectory (MET).
Lofted means the same RV is launched to an apogee higher than the apogee of MET.
This allows the RV to hit a closer target,
GD now think of its uses!
Last edited by ramana on 26 Dec 2018 23:33, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: corrected minimum. ramana

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Austin » 26 Dec 2018 10:50

Israel engages air defenses to intercept anti-aircraft missile from Syria – IDF

https://www.rt.com/news/447395-israel-a ... nse-syria/

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Austin » 26 Dec 2018 10:51

Lots of videos in that link including 8 Ripple Fire by pantisir system to take on Israel Deliah cruise missile fired by Israel F-16I

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Yagnasri » 26 Dec 2018 10:51

Looks like Pralay is going to be tested soon.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby naruto » 26 Dec 2018 13:31

ramana wrote:Recent tests are both lofted trajectory.
Instead of maximum energy trajectory (MET).

ramana garu, isn't it minimum energy trajectory.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby darshhan » 26 Dec 2018 14:19

Shouldn't lofted trajectory be more effective in taking out underground bunkers and other subterranean targets? The warhead penetration would be much more. Of course this is contingent on the missile having sub 10 meter accuracy.

On the other hand if we have indeed mastered that kind of accuracy, then we have a carrier killer of our own.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby darshhan » 26 Dec 2018 14:25

By the way what is the intensity of missile testing wrt frequency for Chinese, Americans, French etc programs.

Pakistan is plainly bluffing. It seems they do not carry out even half a dozen tests annually for their so called diverse inventory. Do they even have a proper test range with required instrumentation and all?

The other country with delusions and pretensions of being a missile power is probably UK. Do they even manufacture any strategic missile besides importing from US?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby John » 26 Dec 2018 19:36

Singha wrote:i dont think the brahmos airframe can take Mach8 speed. tsirkon would have the typical wedge shape that is shown for scramjet missiles.
http://sohanews.sohacdn.com/zoom/640_36 ... 280857.jpg

russian made take on the brahmos is the yakhont.

Yakhont is export variant of Oniks, Brahmos is essentially Oniks (original non export variant). Russia was pitching Yakhont since mid 90s reportedly somehow got the money to complete its development and has offered it for export (Bastion is ground based system that uses Yakhont) ironically competing with Brahmos. Even more ironic is the fact that it was sold to Syria and Israel designed Barak-8 to mainly counter Yakhont (reportedly can take it out before it can even enters the terminal phase).

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ArjunPandit » 27 Dec 2018 16:18

ramana wrote:
ArjunPandit wrote:from the days when A1 and Prithvi tests will be discussed and debated just 10 years back to when A4 test saw a mere passing mention. Not just India but BRF too has come a long way.

Recent tests are both lofted trajectory.
Instead of maxminimum energy trajectory (MET).
Lofted means the same RV is launched to an apogee higher than the apogee of MET.
This allows the RV to hit a closer target,
GD now think of its uses!

Ramana sir,
thanks! my search on google highlighted that it is for higher end velocity. So apart from hiding range, can be used for higher penetration with higher accuracy. Deep underground bunkers. there are few additional interesting items i came across, sharing for your comments and guidance. The article speaks about the highly lofted testing done by NoKo

https://allthingsnuclear.org/dwright/warhead-reentry

The first of these depends on the maximum heating rate at the surface and the length of time that significant heating takes place. Number (2) depends on the total amount of heat absorbed by the RV and the amount of time the heat has to travel from the surface of the RV to the warhead, which is roughly the time between when intense heating begins and when the warhead detonates.

I calculated these quantities for the two cases of interest here: the highly lofted trajectory that the recent North Korean missile followed and a 10,000 km missile on a normal (MET) trajectory. The table shows the results.


Image

The rate of heat transfer per area (q) is roughly proportional to ρV3, where ρ is the atmospheric density and V is the velocity of the RV. Since longer range missiles reenter at higher speeds, the heating rate increases rapidly with missile range. The total heat absorbed (Q) is the integral of q over time during reentry.

This calculation assumes the ballistic coefficient (β) of the RV is 48 kN/m2 (1,000 lb/ft2). The heating values in the table roughly scale with β. A large value of β means less atmospheric drag so the RV travels through the atmosphere at higher speed. That increases the accuracy of the missile but also increases the heating. The United States worked for many years to develop RVs with special coatings that allowed them to have high β and therefore high accuracy, but could also withstand the heating under these conditions.

The results in the table can be understood by looking at how RVs on these two trajectories slow down as they reenter. Figs. 1 and 2 plot the speed of the RV versus time; the x and y axes of the two figures have the same scale. The maximum deceleration (slope of the curve) is roughly the same in the two cases, leading to roughly the same value of q. But the 10,000 km range missile loses more total energy—leading to a larger value of Q—and does so over a longer time than the lofted trajectory.


Image
Image
Not clear with the bolded part.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby JayS » 27 Dec 2018 18:10

What exactly is not clear..?? q (rate of heat transfer) is proportional to deceleration (rate of KE energy dissipation). Since both trajectories have almost equal max deceleration (slowing down while reentry - about 3/5 km/sec2 from the graphs) q is almost the same for the two. But Q (total heat transferred to RV) is proportional to total KE dissipated. Since for MET, KE is reduced from 7.2 kmps to 0.8 kmps as against the drop of 5.2 kmps to 2.0 kmps for lofted one (i.e. 4 times more energy dissipated for MET as compared to lofted trajectory) Q is much larger for MET. Its not 4x because a lot of dissipated KE is spent in heating and ionizing the air in the shock layer (this is the fundamental principle behind blunt RV). hence we see only factor of 1.9x for Q.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Vips » 27 Dec 2018 19:15

Pralay test was scheduled for test today. Again no news so far. I hope they at least do it before the year is out.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Shrinivasan » 27 Dec 2018 22:30

Vips wrote:Pralay test was scheduled for test today. Again no news so far. I hope they at least do it before the year is out.

Nitin Gokhale posted sometime back that it has been pushed to 2019... no more tests in 2018.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ArjunPandit » 27 Dec 2018 22:45

JayS wrote:What exactly is not clear..?? q (rate of heat transfer) is proportional to deceleration (rate of KE energy dissipation). Since both trajectories have almost equal max deceleration (slowing down while reentry - about 3/5 km/sec2 from the graphs) q is almost the same for the two. But Q (total heat transferred to RV) is proportional to total KE dissipated. Since for MET, KE is reduced from 7.2 kmps to 0.8 kmps as against the drop of 5.2 kmps to 2.0 kmps for lofted one (i.e. 4 times more energy dissipated for MET as compared to lofted trajectory) Q is much larger for MET. Its not 4x because a lot of dissipated KE is spent in heating and ionizing the air in the shock layer (this is the fundamental principle behind blunt RV). hence we see only factor of 1.9x for Q.

Thanks JayS, at the expense of looking idiot by asking what may be fairly obvious to you, by blunt nose cone you mean the one for ogival ones that are extensively used in SLBMs?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ArjunPandit » 27 Dec 2018 22:46

darshhan wrote:By the way what is the intensity of missile testing wrt frequency for Chinese, Americans, French etc programs.

Pakistan is plainly bluffing. It seems they do not carry out even half a dozen tests annually for their so called diverse inventory. Do they even have a proper test range with required instrumentation and all?

The other country with delusions and pretensions of being a missile power is probably UK. Do they even manufacture any strategic missile besides importing from US?

went through all the pages covering 2018, close to summarising all our tests. I might be wrong but we might never have had an year with so many missile tests.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby PratikDas » 28 Dec 2018 00:06

Regarding lofted trajectories and their technical purpose, as opposed to their operational purpose where one can use their imagination, this post from Haridas ji in the locked thread was short and sweet.

  • Lofted trajectory: Max Q pressure
  • Depressed trajectory: Max temperature
  • Nominal trajectory: Max range

Image

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ArjunPandit » 28 Dec 2018 00:53

ramana wrote:..

kya aapka Gmard pe koi pata hai?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby JayS » 28 Dec 2018 01:54

ArjunPandit wrote:Thanks JayS, at the expense of looking idiot by asking what may be fairly obvious to you, by blunt nose cone you mean the one for ogival ones that are extensively used in SLBMs?

No q is stupid saar. If I know what exactly is confusion its easier to answer.

As an extreme case, Blunt nose as in any reentry space capsule. A rather blunt nose is used as spacecrafts enter with far higher speed (M25 or so) and they need to dump all that KE so they can land safely. Missile RV has relatively much less energy during reentry. they dont use too blunt nose as you dont want to reduce velocity. In fact pointy nose is used for some missiles because accuracy is more important and it reduces travel time through atmosphere. So you have faster and more accurate RV. Of coarse you have to deal with thermal management issues.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Gyan » 28 Dec 2018 12:12

Both Prahaar & Pralay programs seem to moving at snail pace while Pinaka -3 (300mm diameter version) has disappeared.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby prasannasimha » 28 Dec 2018 12:50

Pralay testing was deferred due to Cyclone Pethai


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