Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

[Singha]

Rus might call it the son of the fabled RVV-AE-PD "ramjet adder" that was stillborn.

[JayS]

Looks like I am wrong on this being a desi project, but that report is full of inaccuracies.

- Even DRDO Annual Reports mentions Russian involvement, that its a JV project. See this one for ex:
https://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/ebooks ... html#p=102

Speed mentioned is 2.3-2.5M. 120km Range at 8km altitude. Thrust modulation capability.

- I saw the glue tender, but I don't understand its importance. Did you have any specific thing to point out in reference..?

- People use word "asymmetric" for the intake configuration as its symmetric only about one axis ie the vertical axis, not both the axes. The spacing between the two intakes is 90deg as it tends to give most desirable internal flow characteristics.

- Regarding the hypersonic speeds for AAM, I don't know if people give some thought to the maneuverability at such speed. I mean imagine the G capability that the missile will have to have to intercept a subsonic aircraft turning at 9G. Even if one can figure out how to move the missile that quickly, how will one make sure the hypersonic inlet remains stable..? Its a delicate darling. One will need very good target trajectory prediction capabilities, smart interception algorithms, rather large warheads etc to alleviate need to positively hit the aircraft.

[Prasad]

BTW there is no "flame holding" for SFRD as is the case in LFRJ, if you mean that by the term.

sorryba. my mistake.

[andy B]

Sachin sahab,

It’s a way of turning in the air. It doesn’t need any extra control surfaces. My first aeromodel only used skid to turn as I only had an elevator and rudder on that plane.

Andy Bhai,

I know that Meteor uses an hybrid of the two. And that makes sense. When you have to make small turns use skid to turn. The side slip will be within the tolerance of the intakes. For more sweeping turns use the bank (and higher efficiency).

Indranil many thanks for answering mate. Yes you are ofcourse correct in the meteor reference.

Now please hear me out here as I may be talking out of my musharraf faith bit....what if we can combine the skid to turn with some sort of tvc for sfdr it doesnt need to be as strong in lateral forces generated as what you see on the 9x or Irish, r73, etc. Just enough to assist in kicking the tail out more and thereby assisting in turning on horizontal or vertical axis inside the limitations of intake design etc.

The reason I am trying to figure this out is if we have consistent burn then loss of kinetic energy should be relatively much lower when carrying a directional reorientation by kicking the tail out.

Again not sure if this is even feasible given nozzle less tail and weight constraints just throwing up ideas.

On another thought the ESSM also definitely uses skid to turn.

Sachin sir love the posts on small arms keep it going please!!

[Singha]

what does the rolling airframe missile (RAM) use? it is used in lot of NATO ships.
it spins on its axis like a shell from a rifled barrel to stabilize.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIM-116_R ... me_Missile

[ArjunPandit]

Arjun,

Interception will never be straight line unless the target doesn’t have much manueverability like a ballistic missile/warhead, UAV, or helicopter.

thx sir, any reading recommendations that are publicly available

[SaiK]

In 2016, during ground tests, the DRDO had revealed that the SFDR-powered weapon would sport a range of 120 km at speeds of 2.3-2.5 Mach, though these specifications are understood to have been revised upward now. The DRDO and Russia have worked together on the development and testing of the nozzle-less booster, boron-based ramjet sustainer and fuel flow controller, in addition to the design of the the dual air intakes. The $70 million program aims to achieve demonstrable finality by summer 2020, by which time the Indian Air Force — as with the Astra — will guide an acceptance phase. Engineering design and wind tunnel testing on the new missile is still under way and is likely to see changes as the SFDR system progresses through testing.

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2019/02 ... -test.html

"What this means is that India is on the verge of mastering game-changing missile technology which will enable a jet fighter like the Tejas to launch an air to air missile that will travel at between Mach 3 and Mach 7 towards a Chinese fighter likely upwards of 300 km away.”

With SFDR tech now up and rolling, the Indian Air Force will basically get to craft its air-to-air missile payloads around three systems in the medium term: the MBDA ASRAAM for close combat heat-seeking duties, the Astra for beyond visual range and the Meteor+SFDR at the higher end. Theoretically, the SFDR weapon will be deployable across the IAF’s fleet, from the LCA Tejas to MiG-29s and Su-30s. But whether the missile will be a fit on the Rafale remains to be seen. Either way, the success of the program could potentially satiate the Indian Air Force’s need for a higher performance beyond visual range missile with fleet-wide integration.

[ArjunPandit]

^^can mach3-7 be achieved by this missile? I have not seen any hypersonic design with a round structure. Happy to learn

[suryag]

Learnerd Saars is SFDR the holy grail w.r.t BVR missile propulsions or does it only address a subset of requirements

[nam]

Based on the Livefist report, IAF is looking for flight test later this year!

Even if they carry out captive test, this year, it will big deal !

Also 70 million for development for such capability is a steal.

[Indranil]

Looks like I am wrong on this being a desi project, but that report is full of inaccuracies.

- Even DRDO Annual Reports mentions Russian involvement, that its a JV project. See this one for ex:
https://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/ebooks ... html#p=102

From the looks of it. It seems like a joint project. But, I don't know of any Russian ramjet design which has two inlets. All their designs had air intakes in the X formation.

- I saw the glue tender, but I don't understand its importance. Did you have any specific thing to point out in reference..?

I did not know about how something as rudimentary as glue could hold back development. And although, I did not think of this at the time that I wrote the comment. If this is truly an ongoing collaboration between India and Russia, why has this become a problem to the point that DRDL feels the need to indeginize it, on priority?

- People use word "asymmetric" for the intake configuration as its symmetric only about one axis ie the vertical axis, not both the axes. The spacing between the two intakes is 90deg as it tends to give most desirable internal flow characteristics.

I think you and I are saying the same thing.

- Regarding the hypersonic speeds for AAM, I don't know if people give some thought to the maneuverability at such speed. I mean imagine the G capability that the missile will have to have to intercept a subsonic aircraft turning at 9G. Even if one can figure out how to move the missile that quickly, how will one make sure the hypersonic inlet remains stable..? Its a delicate darling. One will need very good target trajectory prediction capabilities, smart interception algorithms, rather large warheads etc to alleviate need to positively hit the aircraft.

Absolutely. Also, nose based sensors are next to impossible at those speeds.

[Indranil]

Andy Bhai,

I know that Meteor uses an hybrid of the two. And that makes sense. When you have to make small turns use skid to turn. The side slip will be within the tolerance of the intakes. For more sweeping turns use the bank (and higher efficiency).

Now please hear me out here as I may be talking out of my musharraf faith bit....what if we can combine the skid to turn with some sort of tvc for sfdr it doesnt need to be as strong in lateral forces generated as what you see on the 9x or Irish, r73, etc. Just enough to assist in kicking the tail out more and thereby assisting in turning on horizontal or vertical axis inside the limitations of intake design etc.

The reason I am trying to figure this out is if we have consistent burn then loss of kinetic energy should be relatively much lower when carrying a directional reorientation by kicking the tail out.

Again not sure if this is even feasible given nozzle less tail and weight constraints just throwing up ideas.

The nozzleless refers only to the booster. The sustainer employs a nozzle. what I am failing to understand is what advantage would a TVC-assisted boost provide with respect to a control surface based skid.

[Indranil]

thx sir, any reading recommendations that are publicly available

Please drop the sir. I have not read any book. But I have read whatever the mayajal threw at me over the last 2 decades in bits and pieces. May be JayS, Raman sir, Kartik etc. can help you.

^^can mach3-7 be achieved by this missile? I have not seen any hypersonic design with a round structure. Happy to learn

Look no further than our Shaurya/K-15. But ofcourse, it is not as maneuverable as an AAM.

[JayS]

BTW there is no "flame holding" for SFRD as is the case in LFRJ, if you mean that by the term.

sorryba. my mistake.

I mean theres no flame holder which you typically see in Liquid ramjets or in AB of jet engine. But there is indeed a hot zone where burning happens. Boron needs quite high temp (like 2000K) to get the oxide layer it has on it to vaporise so that the elemental Boron can start burning. And the particle takes time to burn completely. It challenging to design the combustor in such a way that it maintains a very hot zone, and provide enough resident time inside the combustor for complete combustion of boron. With barely 1-1.5m chamber, you can imagine how much resident time one could get when air is moving at minimum of 100m/s. You do that by creating stable entrapped vortices. How you position the intakes is one critical factor in getting this correctly. This is very much like how combustor is in Jet engine, but there you don't have Boron particles to burn. Aluminium is rather easy to burn but Boron packs the kind of punch no other fuel has. Boron is perhaps the highest chemical energy density fuel known to man in terns of volumetric density. 30% Boron in the fuel and you have quite high energy density. To circumvent the issues with burning, looks like these days people use nano-sized boron particles. SFDR also has nano-boron mixed solid fuel.

[JayS]

- Even DRDO Annual Reports mentions Russian involvement, that its a JV project. See this one for ex:
https://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/ebooks ... html#p=102

From the looks of it. It seems like a joint project. But, I don't know of any Russian ramjet design which has two inlets. All their designs had air intakes in the X formation.

Well they don't really have to have any exactly same project. They have quite a few ramjet designs. US/Ru has done so much work in any field you take. They can almost always find something useful on anything to share. Theres enough literature available online freely, but I think Ru's main contribution would be real life data and experience.

- I saw the glue tender, but I don't understand its importance. Did you have any specific thing to point out in reference..?

I did not know about how something as rudimentary as glue could hold back development. And although, I did not think of this at the time that I wrote the comment. If this is truly an ongoing collaboration between India and Russia, why has this become a problem to the point that DRDL feels the need to indeginize it, on priority?

They said in the tender, its issue with getting it quickly enough from Russia. I cannot imagine what kind of glue can have 10yr shelf life but would expire while travelling between Russia and India. Once I requested a paper from a Russian Scientist. The old chap was nice enough to post it on his own expenses but understandably sent by cheapest post option. Took 3months to come from somewhere in deep in Siberia. I am sure DRDO can get stuff couriered much faster than that.

- People use word "asymmetric" for the intake configuration as its symmetric only about one axis ie the vertical axis, not both the axes. The spacing between the two intakes is 90deg as it tends to give most desirable internal flow characteristics.

I think you and I are saying the same thing.

Just wanted to say, in literature, especially papers from DRDL, the config is called Asymmetric config.

[NachiketM]

Think we missed this event today ...

http://www.odishabytes.com/high-speed-i ... sha-coast/

"India on Tuesday test-fired high-speed interceptor missile Prithvi Defence Vehicle (PDV) against an electronic target from Abdul Kalam Island (earlier known as Wheeler Island) of the Integrated Test Range (ITR) off Odisha coast."

[ramana]

Arjunpandit Start from a 1990s book

Tactical and Strategic Missile Guidance by Steve Zarchan.
Published by AIAA and shoulld be able to get a pdf and then graduate to other books.

[Rakesh]

https://twitter.com/delhidefence/status ... 1667575808 ---> Presenting the Akash Surface-to-Air Guided Weapons System on outdoor display at Aero India 2019. These indigenously developed and manufactured Surface-to-Air Missiles, already in service with the IAF, are force multipliers.

[dinesha]

X-post

India’s Counterforce Temptations-Strategic Dilemmas, Doctrine, and Capabilities
-by Christopher Clary and Vipin Narang
https://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/pd ... nload=true

For those looking for thread specifics, the authors has summarized their POV on India's missile development & testing and ISR capabilities under the two headings namely:
a) India’s Capabilities: Moving toward Damage Limitation? - Page - 25 onwards
b) Identifying and intercepting pakistan’s strategic systems - Page 31 onwards

[Rakesh]

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1097354304640430086 ---> Some shade from sun under this Akash SAM launcher @ Aero India 2019.

[Rakesh]

For newbies, NGARM is New Generation Anti Radiation Missile. Click on link below to learn more.

A Closer Look At DRDO’s New Generation Anti-Radiation Missile
http://delhidefencereview.com/2018/04/1 ... n-missile/

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1097349190341005312 ---> Su-30MKI with NGARM hard point for tests @ Aero India 2019.

[prasannasimha]

Nirbhay trials in March. Seems Manik engine has been fully validated for use on Nirbhay

[Karthik S]

Nirbhay trials in March. Seems Manik engine has been fully validated for use on Nirbhay

Link please.

[Kakarat]

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1097858717285011460

JUST IN: Next Nirbhay cruise missile development trial ‘shortly’ says @DRDO_India chief G. Satheesh Reddy.

[Karthik S]

Thanks Kakarat, but doesn't say March. Anyway good news, I hope the range is at 1500km.

[Kakarat]

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/10 ... 1299750913

#AeroIndia2019

Nirbhay missile heading for another test in March.

From @AeroIndiashow press con.

@akananth

I think it is from Aeroindia press meet and reporters are tweeting in bits from it

[sajaym]

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2019/02 ... -test.html

"What this means is that India is on the verge of mastering game-changing missile technology which will enable a jet fighter like the Tejas to launch an air to air missile that will travel at between Mach 3 and Mach 7 towards a Chinese fighter likely upwards of 300 km away.”

Learnerd Saars is SFDR the holy grail w.r.t BVR missile propulsions or does it only address a subset of requirements

Absolutely. Also, nose based sensors are next to impossible at those speeds.

Not able to comment whether this is the holy grail of BVR propulsion, but I would say that this is definitely the holy c**p of air-to-air combat. This here missile is not a BVR...it is a BTR (Beyond Theatre Range) weapon. The hypersonic speed is not for engaging alien spaceships moving warp speeds, instead the hypersonic speed is just a transport enabler -- to get the missile quickly from theatre A to threatre B. The terminal stage tracking & manoevering might still happen at currently prevalent speeds. It is a game changer and a force multiplier in the following ways:

1. A fighter can fire this missile from theatre A quickly into theatre B without ever entering theatre B in the course of the engagement. Once in theatre B (and after hypersonic speed cut-off), the missile either locks onto a target via LOBL or LOAL OR it can even be cued onto the target by any friendly forces in theatre B (soldier with manpad, SAM system, unmanned vehicle, helicopter, fighter, AWACS). So a CAP mission can literally cover greater swathes of territory with such a missile.

2. Since this missile can be fired from theatre A to theatre B, a fighter in theatre B doesn't have to worry about having exhausted it's AA missiles and having to RTB for reload. It has access to an unlimited (limited by missiles carried/stored in theatre A) supply of ready to fire missiles. Heck, this missile can even be fired from a storage silo in a fighter's homebase in threatre A! The WSO of a fighter in theatre B simply needs to lock onto a target and press the trigger & his missile can come from anywhere! Reminds me of the Ramayana/Mahabharat tele serials in my childhood days where warriors shooting arrows at each other would simply stretch their hands in the air and lo behold an arrow would appear in their hand!

So in many ways this is truly a capability to look forward to in the current scenario of depleting squadrons & the looming threat of a two-front war. Also, this might be the last iteration of the air-to-air missile before the direct energy weapons make an appearance.

[ramana]

If it comes about its like the US Navy Phoenix missile with phenomenal range.
It also means its to intercept nuke threats from afar.

[JTull]

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2019/02 ... -test.html

"What this means is that India is on the verge of mastering game-changing missile technology which will enable a jet fighter like the Tejas to launch an air to air missile that will travel at between Mach 3 and Mach 7 towards a Chinese fighter likely upwards of 300 km away.”

Learnerd Saars is SFDR the holy grail w.r.t BVR missile propulsions or does it only address a subset of requirements

Not able to comment whether this is the holy grail of BVR propulsion, but I would say that this is definitely the holy c**p of air-to-air combat. This here missile is not a BVR...it is a BTR (Beyond Theatre Range) weapon. The hypersonic speed is not for engaging alien spaceships moving warp speeds, instead the hypersonic speed is just a transport enabler -- to get the missile quickly from theatre A to threatre B. The terminal stage tracking & manoevering might still happen at currently prevalent speeds. It is a game changer and a force multiplier in the following ways:

1. A fighter can fire this missile from theatre A quickly into theatre B without ever entering theatre B in the course of the engagement. Once in theatre B (and after hypersonic speed cut-off), the missile either locks onto a target via LOBL or LOAL OR it can even be cued onto the target by any friendly forces in theatre B (soldier with manpad, SAM system, unmanned vehicle, helicopter, fighter, AWACS). So a CAP mission can literally cover greater swathes of territory with such a missile.

2. Since this missile can be fired from theatre A to theatre B, a fighter in theatre B doesn't have to worry about having exhausted it's AA missiles and having to RTB for reload. It has access to an unlimited (limited by missiles carried/stored in theatre A) supply of ready to fire missiles. Heck, this missile can even be fired from a storage silo in a fighter's homebase in threatre A! The WSO of a fighter in theatre B simply needs to lock onto a target and press the trigger & his missile can come from anywhere! Reminds me of the Ramayana/Mahabharat tele serials in my childhood days where warriors shooting arrows at each other would simply stretch their hands in the air and lo behold an arrow would appear in their hand!

So in many ways this is truly a capability to look forward to in the current scenario of depleting squadrons & the looming threat of a two-front war. Also, this might be the last iteration of the air-to-air missile before the direct energy weapons make an appearance.

It is ridiculous to think that you'll be firing at enemy aircraft from far away when there are friendly fighters in their proximity. It is even more ridiculous to then say that the friendly aircraft will then be able to cue these missiles as they enter the theatre.

[ArjunPandit]

Just to put things in light, the workable width of pakistan is 350 Km. Most of the bases are within 50-150 km range

[ArjunPandit]

Jtull, wont IFF help?

[Karan M]

It is ridiculous to think that you'll be firing at enemy aircraft from far away when there are friendly fighters in their proximity. It is even more ridiculous to then say that the friendly aircraft will then be able to cue these missiles as they enter the theatre.

In 1994, Russia tested a R37 fired by a MiG-31 which hit a target 300km away. It handed over the guidance midway, to a Su-30M. The test was successful.

[nam]

Once the S400 comes in, I am expecting it to be cued/target info by Su30's BARS.

It would be a fascinating capability.

[John]

Once the S400 comes in, I am expecting it to be cued/target info by Su30's BARS.

It would be a fascinating capability.

Not for Su-30 Perhaps for an AWACS even then I doubt russia would allow any such integration or has such capability ( I believe S-400 is very tightly integrated system and doesn't integrate with other systems but I am not an expert on S-400). MR-SAM in other hand is different story.

[nam]

Once the S400 comes in, I am expecting it to be cued/target info by Su30's BARS.

It would be a fascinating capability.

Not for Su-30 Perhaps for an AWACS even then I doubt russia would allow any such integration or has such capability ( I believe S-400 is very tightly integrated system and doesn't integrate with other systems but I am not an expert on S-400). MR-SAM in other hand is different story.

It has to be a X band radar to provide target co-ordinates. Like the one on Su-30.

I am pretty sure Russia would have such an integration or plans to. Like the F35 + SM, providing targeting beyond Aegis range.

[John]

I have not heard of such capability for S-400.

Added: If enemy acs are flying low to avoid S-400 I would much rather have flanker finish them off with AAM rather than flying around providing guidance to S-400.

[brar_w]

I am pretty sure Russia would have such an integration or plans to. Like the F35 + SM, providing targeting beyond Aegis range.

Care to share any evidence you have to support the claim that the Russians have something similar to NIFC-CA?

[Karan M]

Guys, back to Indian missiles please. Take this discussion to the relevant thread. I quoted the Russian example of what can be done, but a more detailed investigation into Russian systems belongs on another thread.

[Rakesh]

Barak 8 and Barak 8 ER at Aero India 2019. Picture courtesy of Vayu Aerospace Review.

[Austin]

Russian-Indian BrahMos-2 Hypersonic Missile To Be Created, Tested By 2024 - Manufacturer

https://www.urdupoint.com/en/world/russ ... 56019.html

BENGALURU (India) (UrduPoint news / Sputnik - 20th February, 2019) The Russian-Indian air-based hypersonic missile BrahMos-2 will be created and tested by 2024, BrahMos company's spokesman Praveen Pathak told Sputnik on Wednesday.

"[India] is working on a hypersonic missile together with Russia. It will take no more than five years. The test launch may take place in late 2023 - early 2024," Pathak said on the sidelines of the Aero India exhibition in the Indian city of Bengaluru.