Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 07 Mar 2019 15:22

MOD Annual Report 17-18 wrote:Fused Silica Radar-dome (RADOME) for ‘Astra’ missile: Radar-dome (radome) is a critical component of target seeking missile as it protects the navigation system from adverse environment. Fused silica (SiO2) is one of the ceramic materials preferred for fabrication of radar domes. During the year, successful flight trials of indigenous fused silica radome for Astra missiles were carried out. These radomes will also be used in QRSAM, Pralay, RudraM-II & NGARM missiles in future.

Looks like Pralay is our Anti Ship ballistic missile with a radar, otherwise a I dont see a reason for a Fused Silica Radar-dome

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 07 Mar 2019 16:30

^^ Ballistic or hypersonic maneuvering..?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 07 Mar 2019 16:32

Kakarat wrote:
MOD Annual Report 17-18 wrote:Fused Silica Radar-dome (RADOME) for ‘Astra’ missile: Radar-dome (radome) is a critical component of target seeking missile as it protects the navigation system from adverse environment. Fused silica (SiO2) is one of the ceramic materials preferred for fabrication of radar domes. During the year, successful flight trials of indigenous fused silica radome for Astra missiles were carried out. These radomes will also be used in QRSAM, Pralay, RudraM-II & NGARM missiles in future.
Looks like Pralay is our Anti Ship ballistic missile with a radar, otherwise a I dont see a reason for a Fused Silica Radar-dome

Pralay will need a seeker for even land targets same as Brahmos..

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 07 Mar 2019 16:32

Thakur_B wrote:As per VK Thakur, NGARM is an air to air anti radiation missile while Rudra is an air to surface anti radiation missile. Any merit to this statement?

Karan M wrote:Thakur,

No, per DRDO a glimpse ebook NGARM is for A2G targets. It is likely Rudra M1. Rudra M2, M2A, M3 etc are NGARM missile variants (missile design wise) with different seekers for different A2G functions (check AVM Nambiars interview in Salute).

Rudra M2/M3 will have 200kg class warhead. I don't think it will be A2A missile with that kind of warhead. I have given references to this from at least 2 tenders previously here.

Perhaps "NGARM is A2A" comes from its looks, it looks scaled Astra. While we have not seen Rudra so far.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 07 Mar 2019 16:35

Aditya_V wrote:Any Idea what is the Status of Astra production, we know the R-77 improvements are required, I think Astra in numbers will be very useful

Think read somewhere in twitter that first lot is getting ready to be handed over to IAF. But take it FWIW.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 07 Mar 2019 16:48

basically Rudra M1 is NGARM .

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 07 Mar 2019 16:55

If we want to understand what we are doing with Rudra family, this is relevant:
http://www.defenseworld.net/news/24326/ ... e_to_India

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 07 Mar 2019 20:59

JayS wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:Any Idea what is the Status of Astra production, we know the R-77 improvements are required, I think Astra in numbers will be very useful
Think read somewhere in twitter that first lot is getting ready to be handed over to IAF. But take it FWIW.

was handed over 6 months ago. should be in one of the su30 squadrons now, with more squadrons due to receive...

John · Post by **John** » 07 Mar 2019 21:24

Karan M wrote:
Kakarat wrote:
Looks like Pralay is our Anti Ship ballistic missile with a radar, otherwise a I dont see a reason for a Fused Silica Radar-dome
Pralay will need a seeker for even land targets same as Brahmos..

For hitting stationary target isn’t more preferable and cheaper to use IR. Brahmos uses radar seeker because of Ashm usage.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 07 Mar 2019 21:32

can the glass dome of a IR sensor survive the heat of a SRBM ballistic missile flight?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 07 Mar 2019 22:05

John wrote:
Karan M wrote:
Pralay will need a seeker for even land targets same as Brahmos..
For hitting stationary target isn’t more preferable and cheaper to use IR. Brahmos uses radar seeker because of Ashm usage.

Stationary targets can often be "lost" due to GPS jamming and INS drift, plus even otherwise non seeker PGMs, have a larger CEP. So, point targets need seekers. RF seekers come with all weather advantage, and despite attenuation because of moisture, largish seekers compensate. IIR seekers can use DSMAC via sat imagery, and hence have their advantages too.

But Pralay I guess will have a RF seeker based on IAF target set and also because India has also demonstrated capability to develop RF seekers which work at high speed, heat. Of course, if we have developed IIR seekers for Rudra M2, all bets are off. The other IIR we have developed for high speed carriage, is a largish unit for the PDV but again more oriented towards Bzm targets silhouetted against cold space.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 07 Mar 2019 22:09

Singha wrote:can the glass dome of a IR sensor survive the heat of a SRBM ballistic missile flight?

One way is the heated external radome ejects as missile approaches target area uncaging the IIR seeker which was kept safe behind a thermal shield. Now if A2A missiles can hit 3-4 Mach, and seeker still works and is able to ignore the heat bloom around it's own radome, I think even this can be managed.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 07 Mar 2019 22:32

Don't know much details as to the current use or how many we have, the novator k100 A2A was supposed to be within our stores already.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 07 Mar 2019 22:34

Anti-radiation A2A sounds like an interesting idea. It can sneak up on a fighter or AWACS without itself being detected. Similar to IIR, but operating at a longer range.

However, if the radar has a good resolution, the incoming missile will be detected by the radar itself. Then its a question of the RCS of the missile, distance at which it is detected & its NEZ.

At any rate, it will need its own seeker too (like MMW on the NGARM). Because the aircraft can turn off its radar to defeat the missile.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 07 Mar 2019 22:48

For something that is 500km away, you need something that is very very quick. Mach 3 is 1km/s. A head-on engagement would need to think of escorts and multiple missiles for one target. Perhaps another tactic needs to be resorted to.

Karan,
RF seeker it is.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 07 Mar 2019 23:09

phoenix missile was mach5.5 and high flyer.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 07 Mar 2019 23:43

Prem Kumar wrote:Anti-radiation A2A sounds like an interesting idea. It can sneak up on a fighter or AWACS without itself being detected. Similar to IIR, but operating at a longer range.

However, if the radar has a good resolution, the incoming missile will be detected by the radar itself. Then its a question of the RCS of the missile, distance at which it is detected & its NEZ.

At any rate, it will need its own seeker too (like MMW on the NGARM). Because the aircraft can turn off its radar to defeat the missile.

The beauty of it is if you launch 2 emitting ARH NGARM based large missiles & 2 ARMs based A2A missiles, and they look the same, how will PAF AWACS know which is an ARM and which is not? All are being cued by the fighter radar till they reach the seeker uncages itself/turns on... so all the PAF AWACS can do, is turn around & run, and if it switches off its radar, that too is a win for the Indian side, because they "mission killed" the AWACS, albeit at a cost of 4x missiles.

I think it is high time DRDO started thinking innovatively.. they have the building blocks for a range of measures...e.g. a large X-Band AWACS which can act like a missile guidance unit not just an AWACS & guiding missiles which are based on 3x propulsion or Brahmos NG etc with a mix of seekers to specifically target force multipliers.

Yeah, funding I know. But IAF also needs to push them to think out of the box and standard, west did this, russia did this, israel did this, now we do it mindset.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 08 Mar 2019 00:19

NGARM is Rudra I. NGARM can be used against ground based targets or lumbering aerial targets. Rudra II and III are different. Our previous discussion here

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 08 Mar 2019 03:22

AIM 120 is mach 4+

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 08 Mar 2019 06:59

If we are creating a new-gen of ASMs and SSMs, I would humbly submit that we build one like what Singha (I think) posted sometime back. An MIRV missile with conventional warheads

Example: the Prompt Global Strike concept, modified for a different use-case.

Take one of the K-series missiles, launched with a large payload (10 Ton+) and relatively short range (<1000 Km). Warhead consisting of 1000s of Tungsten rods, with hypersonic velocities. Launch 50 of them, 2 for each PAF airbase, within the first few minutes of a conflict - i.e. terror attack. Two such missiles will obliterate an entire airbase, including aircraft inside hardened shelters.

Within the first 30 minutes of a conflict, PAF should cease to exist. 95% of Paki nuclear delivery capability will be taken out. No air-to-air combat. Just take them all out.

This approach may not work against the Chinese, because they early warning may interpret the launch of such a missile as a pre-emptive 1st nuke strike. But Pakis have no early warning.

mody · Post by **mody** » 08 Mar 2019 16:11

What is the status of the Akash follow on orders? 8 squadrons of Akash for the IAF have been ordered and at least 5 squadrons seem to operational. The first 2 at Pune and Gwalior and 3 more in the northeast. An additional order of 7 squadrons of the MK1 was to be placed, but was stuck due to price negotiations. Any news if the same has been placed? Given the current situation, having 7 squadrons of Akash on the western/north western border, would be great. Have the trials for Akash S1 been completed or the last tests were the final 'developmental' trails and now user trials are to be conducted? Akash S1 entering production would be big news. Our own SAM with indigenous RF seeker. Minimum 8 squadrons should be ordered, to go with the 15 planned squadrons of MK1.
Also, any idea as to what is hitch with MRSAM project? The Navy version seems to be working fine and has been tested multiple times from ships. Order was also placed last year for additional 7 units for the P17A frigates. Missiles for P15B have already been ordered. What is holding up the IAF project?
A 70 Km range state of the art SAM would be great to have.

sahay · Post by **sahay** » 08 Mar 2019 21:08

mody wrote:8 squadrons of Akash for the IAF have been ordered and at least 5 squadrons seem to operational.

All 8 squadrons are operational, the remaining three are in the north-east too.

mody wrote:Also, any idea as to what is hitch with MRSAM project?

According to Air Marshal Nambiar, there were some issues that were found during operationalisation and they are being fixed now.

Air Marshal Nambiar wrote:The IAF has ordered 18 firing units, and we are in the process of getting the first firing unit. We had deployed the first unit during the Uri crisis, but we were not very satisfied with its performance, especially in terms of operationalising it, so we are back to the drawing boards and we believe that the first firing unit will now come up in the next six to eight months.

mody · Post by **mody** » 09 Mar 2019 15:15

sahay wrote:
mody wrote:8 squadrons of Akash for the IAF have been ordered and at least 5 squadrons seem to operational.
All 8 squadrons are operational, the remaining three are in the north-east too.

mody wrote:Also, any idea as to what is hitch with MRSAM project?
According to Air Marshal Nambiar, there were some issues that were found during operationalisation and they are being fixed now.
Air Marshal Nambiar wrote:The IAF has ordered 18 firing units, and we are in the process of getting the first firing unit. We had deployed the first unit during the Uri crisis, but we were not very satisfied with its performance, especially in terms of operationalising it, so we are back to the drawing boards and we believe that the first firing unit will now come up in the next six to eight months.

Good to know that all 8 squadrons of Akash have been deployed. The question still remains about the intended order for additional 7 squadrons plus the status of of the Akash S1.
The problem with the MRSAM was reported. However, no news whther it has been solved and the production started for the 9 squadrons (18 firing units) or not.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 09 Mar 2019 15:24

Why do you need to know all this, at the present time?

Edited: I understand the curiousity/interest factor & that you are an old timer who posts responsibly on serious topics, with a keen interest in desi gear. Just that the timing is not conducive.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 09 Mar 2019 15:42

come on Karan ... Mody ji is not working for ISI...and ISI has better sources to confirm all this ...this all is for jingo satisfaction only. Let me tell u a incident of 1971 war and i have heard it with my own radars/side lobes. The pilot in question was captured by the Pakis in 1971... he was told to reveal his squadorn etc... name of CO , pilots etc. after a few slaps and beating ..he refused... and then he lied. and then he was confornted with the full list of pilots in his squadorn... so dont worry ISI chaps would know if 8 or 80 squadorns of Akash/ MRSAM have been deployed. people are also answering to such question based on open source reading not from some uber secret files.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 09 Mar 2019 17:12

You guys are welcome to find the answers, but for now not here.

OSINT is perfectly capable of causing unnecessary hassles and unexpected issues for our guys, so why make their life harder?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open-so ... telligence

I repeat again, no more discussion on exact munition numbers, items deployed etc during the current time. Things are still hot.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 09 Mar 2019 21:28

PS: Mody is an old hand, no issue of ISI etc. Just to be clear. And no issues in him asking the query as well.

The issue is just about the timing right now. We shouldn't collate info that makes things easier for the other side, to whatever extent.

mody · Post by **mody** » 11 Mar 2019 14:42

Karan M wrote:PS: Mody is an old hand, no issue of ISI etc. Just to be clear. And no issues in him asking the query as well.

The issue is just about the timing right now. We shouldn't collate info that makes things easier for the other side, to whatever extent.

My question was more pertaining to the follow on order for additional 7 squadrons of Akash MK1, more then anything else. Photos Akash MK1 deployed in the northeast are already available and Wiki even gives the bases where the squadrons ahve been deployed.
The only anxiety was if the follow on order has been placed or the bean counters at MoD are still haggling over the price.
Besides there was also news of an additional regiment to be ordered for the army, apart from the 2 already in service/in the process.

The question about the Akash S1 was just to know the progress. Everyone knows it is not in production as yet, however, if there is any new update about the progress of the programs, it would only go to show how the desi program is gaining momentum.

The question with regards to MRSAM, can be ignored for now.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 11 Mar 2019 15:44

Like I said, lets circle back to this topic in a month or two's time. We can discuss this while rest of India goes ape over the elections.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 11 Mar 2019 18:35

Vijainder K Thakur
‏@vkthakur

https://twitter.com/vkthakur/status/1105087983156449281

Two Guided Pinaka rockets were successfully tested today reportedly to a range of 90-km at Pokharan. Guided Pinaka rocket feature canards on the 60-km range Pinaka Mk-II rocket for aerodynamic control, INS, and GPS to extend range and improve accuracy.

https://twitter.com/vkthakur/status/1105087987908517888

In an earlier test to 75-km range, a Guided Pinaka rocket achieved a 2m CEP!

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 11 Mar 2019 20:22

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1105079518736338944

JUST IN: Guided Pinaka multi-barrel rocket system completes successful twin tests at Pokhran ranges today, says @DRDO_India. Statement:

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1105111253247234048

Here’s a picture from today’s guided Pinaka test:

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 11 Mar 2019 20:22

^^ At high attitude we can expect >120km range.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Mar 2019 20:24

unlike the brute and crude smerch, the pinakas look slim smooth and muricanish.

mody · Post by **mody** » 11 Mar 2019 21:39

Wow 90 KM's for 214mm rocket is great. 75 KM's with
2m cep is fantastic. I don't think we will develop a 300mm version. Prahar can be used for longer ranges.

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 11 Mar 2019 22:17

mody wrote:Wow 90 KM's for 214mm rocket is great. 75 KM's with
2m cep is fantastic. I don't think we will develop a 300mm version. Prahar can be used for longer ranges.

sir, wont use of a missile be escalatory and costly?

John · Post by **John** » 11 Mar 2019 22:28

This makes all Haft-1 missiles obsolete a smaller cheaper missile with similar range and more accurate in more mobile launchers means those Haft launchers easily get taken out by a salvo.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Mar 2019 23:01

Nasr is well within its range too.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 11 Mar 2019 23:12

Karan M wrote:basically Rudra M1 is NGARM .

NGARM has a oddly small warhead of 60kg compared to HARM, KH-31, KH-58 of 150kg. Wonder why?

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 11 Mar 2019 23:41

The HARM and AARGM have a 65 kg BF warhead. With current generation guidance, navigation and seeker(s), I don't know of any good reason to use a larger warhead against the relevant target types.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 12 Mar 2019 00:21

The latest version of American MLRS does 150km, I think we will see further improvement in range in future versions.