Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

arun · Post by **arun** » 03 Apr 2019 13:47

X Posted from the Indian Naval Aviation thread Re more Hellfire Missiles and also Kongsberg Naval Strike Missile which presumably will be separately ordered.

From DSCA here:

India – MH-60R Multi-Mission Helicopters

US Congress notified of possible purchase of upto 24 MH-60R Multi-Mission helicopters for an estimated cost of $2.6 billion:

Transmittal No:
19-15
WASHINGTON, April 2, 2019 - The State Department has made a determination approving a possible Foreign Military Sale to India of twenty-four (24) MH-60R Multi-Mission helicopters for an estimated cost of $2.6 billion. The Defense Security Cooperation Agency delivered the required certification notifying Congress of this possible sale today.

The Government of India has requested to buy twenty-four (24) MH-60R Multi-Mission helicopters, equipped with the following: thirty (30) APS-153(V) Multi-Mode radars (24 installed, 6 spares); sixty (60) T700-GE-401C engines (48 installed and 12 spares); twenty-four (24) Airborne Low Frequency System (ALFS) (20 installed, 4 spares); thirty (30) AN/AAS-44C(V) Multi-Spectral Targeting System (24 installed, 6 spares); fifty-four (54) Embedded Global Positioning System/Inertial Navigation Systems (EGI) with Selective Availability/Anti-Spoofing Module (SAASM) (48 installed, 6 spares); one thousand (1,000) AN/SSQ-36/53/62 sonobuoys; ten (10) AGM-114 Hellfire missiles; five (5) AGM-114 M36-E9 Captive Air Training Missiles (CATM); four (4) AGM-114Q Hellfire Training missiles; thirty-eight (38) Advanced Precision Kill Weapons System (APKWS) rockets; thirty (30) MK 54 torpedoes; twelve (12) M-240D Crew Served guns; twelve (12) GAU-21 Crew Served guns; two (2) Naval Strike Missile Emulators; four (4) Naval Strike Missile Captive Inert Training missiles; one (1) MH-60B/R Excess Defense Article (EDA) USN legacy aircraft. Also included are seventy (70) AN/AVS-9 Night Vision Devices; fifty-four (54) AN/ARC-210 RT-1990A(C) radios with COMSEC (48 installed, 6 spares); thirty (30) AN/ARC-220 High Frequency radios (24 installed, 6 spares); thirty (30) AN/APX-123 Identification Friend or Foe (IFF) transponders (24 installed, 6 spares); spare engine containers; facilities study, design, and construction; spare and repair parts; support and test equipment; communication equipment; ferry support; publications and technical documentation; personnel training and training equipment; U.S. Government and contractor engineering, technical and logistics support services; and other related elements of logistical and program support. The total estimated cost is $2.6 billion.

This proposed sale will support the foreign policy and national security of the United States by helping to strengthen the U.S.-Indian strategic relationship and to improve the security of a major defensive partner which continues to be an important force for political stability, peace, and economic progress in the Indo-Pacific and South Asia region.

The proposed sale will provide India the capability to perform anti-surface and anti-submarine warfare missions along with the ability to perform secondary missions including vertical replenishment, search and rescue, and communications relay. India will use the enhanced capability as a deterrent to regional threats and to strengthen its homeland defense. India will have no difficulty absorbing these helicopters into its armed forces.

The proposed sale of this equipment and support will not alter the basic military balance in the region.

The principal contractor will be Lockheed Martin Rotary and Mission Systems, Owego, New York. The purchaser typically requests offsets. Any offset agreement will be defined in negotiations between the purchaser and the contractor.

Implementation of this proposed sale will require the assignment of 20-30 U.S. Government and/or contractor representatives to India.

There will be no adverse impact on U.S. defense readiness as a result of this proposed sale.

This notice of a potential sale is required by law and does not mean the sale has been concluded.

All questions regarding this proposed Foreign Military Sale should be directed to the State Department's Bureau of Political Military Affairs, Office of Congressional and Public Affairs, pm-cpa@state.gov.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 03 Apr 2019 17:29

Saurav Jha Verified account @SJha1618
Following Following @SJha1618
More
New Delhi must also sanction the development and testing of the MIRVed Agni-VI ICBM as soon as possible. Again, like the ASAT mission, the building blocks are in place and a test can probably be conducted within 18 months of the go ahead.

With ASAT out of the way, and not a sound of critique from anyone except for NASA and CNN, will the govt give go ahead for a 10,000 wala or will it cause any diplomatic trouble ?

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 03 Apr 2019 17:50

Karthik S wrote:
Saurav Jha Verified account @SJha1618
Following Following @SJha1618
More
New Delhi must also sanction the development and testing of the MIRVed Agni-VI ICBM as soon as possible. Again, like the ASAT mission, the building blocks are in place and a test can probably be conducted within 18 months of the go ahead.
With ASAT out of the way, and not a sound of critique from anyone except for NASA and CNN, will the govt give go ahead for a 10,000 wala or will it cause any diplomatic trouble ?

Longer range ICBM is fine (We already have the Agni 5 which can go 8000 KM's) so more then 10,000 wala we need to first develop the MIRV missile as we need to take care of the Chinese lizard. So a MIRV missile both land and its submarine launched version is 'TOP URGENT' priority.

I hope Modi/Doval team has already given the green signal for its development. This is India's last chance as the adharmic parties are only too happy to compromise our interests as evident now from the ASAT testing denial in 2012.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 03 Apr 2019 19:00

What is the diplomatic hurdle in testing MIRV?

AgniVI will be tougher than ASAT though. There will be two key new hardware technologies. MIRV and large composite booster casings.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 03 Apr 2019 19:34

I wish the babus stop using reporters to spread wishlists in SM.
There are regular channels for this.

kit · Post by **kit** » 03 Apr 2019 20:38

Singha wrote:strategic moves need PM level talk, esp if as I believe this was in response to cheen attack on risat1 in 2016.

agni/K launches are routine, until agni6 comes along.

Personally I feel India needs to build up the case of RISAT ..what's better than such an issue to unite a nation

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 03 Apr 2019 21:15

Folks, please continue discussion of Naval Strike Missile in the Indian Naval Aviation thread ----> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7308&start=640

Please keep all discussions in one thread. Easier to track and follow.

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 03 Apr 2019 21:38

Indranil wrote:What is the diplomatic hurdle in testing MIRV?

AgniVI will be tougher than ASAT though. There will be two key new hardware technologies. MIRV and large composite booster casings.

Wasnt the ASAT stage I composite though? Also Agni IV upper stage?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 03 Apr 2019 21:44

No Diplomatic hurdle but more like DRDO is working on Advanced MIRV with each acting as independent MaRV post reentry and do anti-ABM evasive manouver and boost glide to longer range than normal MIRV , Also looking at larger throw-up weight and long range keeping mobility , will take some time.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 03 Apr 2019 21:48

Indranil wrote:What is the diplomatic hurdle in testing MIRV?

AgniVI will be tougher than ASAT though. There will be two key new hardware technologies. MIRV and large composite booster casings.

US first tested a Delta Rocket in mid 1960s called Trans-stage for launching multiple satellites.
So much for keeping NASA separate from military Space.
Note ISRO has launched multiple sats into orbit successfully many times.

Long ago an Indian Admiral wrote 'Naming enemies makes them.'

So which enemy is the idea for long range MIRV?

Its sad to pursue technology for tech sake.

I would rather have MIRV on a medium range missile to ensure full spectrum Asian deterrence.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 03 Apr 2019 23:32

sudeepj wrote:
Indranil wrote:What is the diplomatic hurdle in testing MIRV?

AgniVI will be tougher than ASAT though. There will be two key new hardware technologies. MIRV and large composite booster casings.
Wasnt the ASAT stage I composite though? Also Agni IV upper stage?

ASAT stage 1 and 2 are both made of steel. I wrote an article for DDR on it. It should come out soon.

Agni IV second stage is composite. But that is not so much of a challenge as the diameter is small. Agni V (stage 2 and 3) and PSLV Stage 3 are more difficult given their 2 mtr diameter. We have demonstrated capability up to here. Agni V first stage is even more difficult because it has both large diameter and length. We have not demonstrated capability up to here.

nam · Post by **nam** » 03 Apr 2019 23:40

If we want high altitude BMD interceptors innumbers, then cost would be a major factor. If steel provides the cost advantage, it is better to stick with it than composites.

For Armageddon weapons like Agni 5/6/ K4, yeah sure composites.

There will be sukoon in the heart, once we test out Russian style high speed boosters. More sukoon will be SM2/3 style BMD loadout in P15B and P17A...

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 04 Apr 2019 00:19

Actually composites are cheaper than maraging steel. Building missiles using composites is also cheaper than building using maraging steel. Developing the tech to build using composite is expensive. But, for a country with a robust space and military missile program, it is a path that we have to take.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 04 Apr 2019 00:22

Indranil, I have a question. I do not know how much of an advantage in weight composite stages will have over maraging steel stages. If the first and second stages of the K-4 were to be built using composites instead of steel how much of an increase in range can we expect (approximately)?

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 04 Apr 2019 00:24

IMO, the strategic priorities (missiles) for Modi Sarkar 2.0 are:

1) K5 SLBM targeting all of China
2) Test TN weapons & other fission weapons till we have proven, light-weight, megatonnage designs and have enough data for LIF simulation
3) MIRV/MARV on Agni-6 or even Agni-5A
4) 10K range on Agni-6

On the last point, its to preserve our strategic autonomy. As 'muricans like to say: "Its not you. Its me"

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 04 Apr 2019 02:35

nachiket wrote:Indranil, I have a question. I do not know how much of an advantage in weight composite stages will have over maraging steel stages. If the first and second stages of the K-4 were to be built using composites instead of steel how much of an increase in range can we expect (approximately)?

What you are asking is a design question. There is a thing called range partial i.e. what is the range increase per unit weight of first stage and second stage?

Without knowing the specifics as FS is used mainly to get to altitude by overcoming gravity, not much advantage. However second and third stage range partials will be more beneficial. i.e. you get more range by decreasing the weight.
Also note the composite casings are more expensive and fault prone ; adhesive de-bonds, insulator, fuel cracking due to loads being transferred etc.

Dr. Reddy said ASAT can reach 1000 km. And thats good for all LEO EOS/Comm/ELINT sats.

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 04 Apr 2019 02:46

Indranil wrote:
sudeepj wrote:
Wasnt the ASAT stage I composite though? Also Agni IV upper stage?
ASAT stage 1 and 2 are both made of steel. I wrote an article for DDR on it. It should come out soon.

Agni IV second stage is composite. But that is not so much of a challenge as the diameter is small. Agni V (stage 2 and 3) and PSLV Stage 3 are more difficult given their 2 mtr diameter. We have demonstrated capability up to here. Agni V first stage is even more difficult because it has both large diameter and length. We have not demonstrated capability up to here.

Indranil ji, I am looking at the DDR write up: http://delhidefencereview.com/2019/04/0 ... te-killer/

And saw that you had the diameter of K4 as 1.4 meters. In an earlier report, HK Rout says, its 1.3 meters.
http://www.newindianexpress.com/states/ ... 48253.html

~~A diameter of 1.3 meters will allow three K4s to fit in the 2.3 meter dia tubes of Arihant..~~ Wrong calculation..

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 04 Apr 2019 02:58

Sudeep,

Please drop the ji. AFAIK the tubes on Arihant have a diameter of 2 mtrs. K4 uses an adapter. But only one missile per tube. Three K15 fits inside each tube.

Nachiket.
If you knock off 550 kgs on stage 1, and 150 kgs on stage 2, then you would roughly gain 15-20% higher range.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 04 Apr 2019 03:13

ramana wrote: What you are asking is a design question. There is a thing called range partial i.e. what is the range increase per unit weight of first stage and second stage?

Without knowing the specifics as FS is used mainly to get to altitude by overcoming gravity, not much advantage. However second and third stage range partials will be more beneficial. i.e. you get more range by decreasing the weight.
Also note the composite casings are more expensive and fault prone ; adhesive de-bonds, insulator, fuel cracking due to loads being transferred etc.

Dr. Reddy said ASAT can reach 1000 km. And thats good for all LEO EOS/Comm/ELINT sats.

Thanks Ramana saar. I was asking with respect to K-4 itself, not the ASAT. ASAT range is already adequate.

Indranil wrote:Nachiket.
If you knock off 550 kgs on stage 1, and 150 kgs on stage 2, then you would roughly gain 15-20% higher range.

Nice so K-4 range can be theoretically up to 4200km if all stages are composite.

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 04 Apr 2019 03:17

Indranil bhai, just wanted to bring to your attention another data point. HKR does have the DRDO beat and reports accurately about many tests. Wiki has this reference and the 1.3 meter diameter.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 04 Apr 2019 03:37

I don't know how many steps they will take to get 3 stage, all composite,10 mtr tall, 2 mtr dia SLBM: A true blue SLICBM.

They might get there in two steps: First get to a 3 stage,10 mtr tall, 2 mtr dia SLBM where all but the first stage have a composite casing. And then, switch to an all composite three stage missile.

Or they might get there in on step. I am sure we will know within 5 years.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 04 Apr 2019 03:39

sudeepj wrote:Indranil bhai, just wanted to bring to your attention another data point. HKR does have the DRDO beat and reports accurately about many tests. Wiki has this reference and the 1.3 meter diameter.

It's in that ball park region. A public tender for building a trailer to carry the stages put the diameter at 1.4 mtrs. Also, I know that it is one K4 per launch tube.

Snehashis · Post by **Snehashis** » 04 Apr 2019 04:36

Picklu, Ramana have a look here -

IIT-Bombay develops first indigenous thermal imaging devices

“The focal plane arrays, which is at the heart of all thermal imagers, involves a number of complex fabrication steps,” Prof. Chakrabarti says.

“IIT Bombay’s research group have successfully optimised each of these steps in-house and thereby the flipchip bonded sensor arrays can be entirely fabricated in this country. This will make the indigenous thermal imaging or night-vision technology affordable and cheaper and will serve as a perfect example of Made In India.”

https://publications.drdo.gov.in/ojs/in ... 11178/5795

We report the successful fabrication and characterisation
of single-pixel MWIR T2SL InAs/GaSb-based detectors.
The highest measured responsivity was 1.62 A/W. To the
best of our knowledge, we have successfully fabricated and
demonstrated the frst InAs/GaSb-based T2SL MWIR 320 ×
256 FPA in India, which could image human targets even at
higher operating temperatures (i.e. up to 150 K). Moreover,
this T2SL FPA exhibits room temperature operation for higher
temperature targets (> 300 ºC)

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 04 Apr 2019 04:50

Thats great news .
So earth application is check.
Can any chip expert look at the spec data and compare to similar products abroad?

I know LWIR is for space and custom FPA.

Link to the original April 2017 Current Science paper

https://www.currentscience.ac.in/Volume ... 7/1568.pdf

Suresh S · Post by **Suresh S** » 04 Apr 2019 07:35

I do not agree with that. We must have MIRV which can reach North and south America. It takes yrs to make and deploy these and need may arise suddenly and without warning. We will not survive by being nice. In 1971 it was uncle that threatened to attack us. It can happen anytime .We do not have to name any enemy but just make and deploy these SLMB and ICBM which can reach any point on the globe if need arises.

mody · Post by **mody** » 04 Apr 2019 15:19

For missiles I would say mastering the following technologies is more important than testing a 10K+ range A6 missile.

1). All composite missiles or basically having 2 meter diameter 1st composite tech for missiles upto A5. This will automatically boost the range for all missiles, or help reduce the size for missiles like the A1.
2). MIRV and MaRV warhead tech. MIRV with MaRV for A5, K4 and K5 would also be good enough, to cover all of Asia, Africa and most of Europe.
3). NEPE based propellant for all A and K series missiles. Currently I think we have this for Pinaka MK-2 rockets and maybe Pralay and proposed A-1P might also be based on NEPE based propellant.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Apr 2019 15:34

^^ second that. we dont need sarmat type ss18ski. mobile, light and mach23 + MARV + MIRV is what we need to build and test.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 07 Apr 2019 06:21

Our missiles are already unitary MaRV.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 07 Apr 2019 06:38

delete

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 08 Apr 2019 00:33

Still no word on Nirbhay... Hoping things are in motion for good news this month

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 08 Apr 2019 16:54

Range of BrahMos Supersonic Cruise Missile to Be Increased to About 310 Miles

https://sputniknews.com/military/201904 ... c-missile/

MOSCOW (Sputnik) - The range of BrahMos supersonic cruise missiles, produced jointly by Russia and India, is planned to be increased to 500 kilometres (311 miles) from 400 kilometres, Alexander Maksichev, the managing co-director of the BrahMos Aerospace company, told Sputnik.

"We will come to hypersound via an increase in range. We have already confirmed 400 kilometers, in order to increase the range to 500, it is needed to increase the speed. Now the missile flies at speeds of 2.8 mach. We will achieve the speed of hypersound through modernization, it is more than 4.5 mach," Maksichev said.

negi · Post by **negi** » 08 Apr 2019 17:03

Brahmos is a pretty beefy missile no point doing this 300-400 and then 500 extensions, slap on it a thick booster that still keep it ship deployable and extract a range of around 1500 km where initial phase remains ballistic and we lob it at high altitude and it dives into the ramjet phase . It's a better way to package the missile where the same missile without booster stage works for 300-400 km range and with a solid booster can engage targets at 1000 km or above range . If a system has to be deployed in numbers it should be robust and economically viable. We have enough prowess with SRBs .

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 08 Apr 2019 18:53

As reported earlier Brahmos corp is working on a 800 + km range Brahmos program.

The current fuel and ramjet burn supports 450- 500 km range , So they are just using the fullest range post Indian entry into MTCR , That would make all the currently inducted Brahmos to fly at long as 450 + km.

They have a Improved Ramjet Variant under works that will increase speed to Mach 4.5 keep same range. Plus a Scramjet variant of Brahmos derived from Zircon program to give it Mach 8 capability

There are no magical way to fit a fat booster to increase its range , The only way to do it is to increase it ramjet burn time and make engine more effecient to burn less fuel and carry more of it.

Also the warhead weight also matter if you carry 250-300 kg of Warhead you need x amount of fuel compared to say carrying 50 kg warhead then it impacts the other design aspect as well

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 08 Apr 2019 23:52

From Defexpo18 if i remember right DRDO is developing a free flowing solid propellant for Brahmos's ramjet to increase its range

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 09 Apr 2019 00:03

Based on Akash grains?

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 09 Apr 2019 09:09

Indranil wrote:Based on Akash grains?

From a few Russian reports a few years back it was supposed to be some sort of aluminium slurry in hydrocarbon.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 09 Apr 2019 10:25

Suresh S wrote:I do not agree with that. We must have MIRV which can reach North and south America. It takes yrs to make and deploy these and need may arise suddenly and without warning. We will not survive by being nice. In 1971 it was uncle that threatened to attack us. It can happen anytime .We do not have to name any enemy but just make and deploy these SLMB and ICBM which can reach any point on the globe if need arises.

Right ... except all countries that fall in range will ask themselves if it is intended for them. Chile and American both will realize such a system is not aimed at Chile. Smart folks don't just inhabit BRF and they will start thinking of active counters.

MIRved SLBM in the Agni-5 category is all that Indian needs for the foreseeable future.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 09 Apr 2019 11:08

Range of BrahMos missiles may be increased from 400 km to 500 km
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 775494.cms

"We will come to hypersound via an increase in range. We have already confirmed 400 kilometres, in order to increase the range to 500, it is needed to increase the speed. Now the missile flies at speeds of 2.8 mach. We will achieve the speed of hypersound through modernization, it is more than 4.5 mach," Maksichev said.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 09 Apr 2019 11:10

It is clear now that the range increase to 500 + km is being achieved via increase in speed from M 2.8 to 4.5

So a roughly 40 % increase in speed should translate to 40 % increase in range from 400 to 550 km ?

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 09 Apr 2019 17:45

Austin wrote:It is clear now that the range increase to 500 + km is being achieved via increase in speed from M 2.8 to 4.5

So a roughly 40 % increase in speed should translate to 40 % increase in range from 400 to 550 km ?

Sirji
What is the flight profile for this range?