Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 18 May 2019 17:08

Wow. That be a lot of radars. :shock:

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 19 May 2019 09:07

Rohit - three quick notes:

1. An old R&DE article clearly mentions Army has 24 launchers per regiment, IMHO that rules out the 2x troops per battery possibility
2. Rohinis ordered by IAF were 45, 37 for surveillance (Low level radar requirement) and 8 for the Akash squadrons, so the article on 100 3D CARs planned was most probably right
3. 28 MPAR again matches the 6x troops / regiment numbers.

I'll have to concur that all the evidence so far matches the possibility that IA Akash regiment is 6x troops and 2x HQ units, with each troop being a battery by itself and not 2 of them. Qn still undecided is about how many 3D CAR did IA really order.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby rohitvats » 19 May 2019 10:43

Karan - We need to understand the nomenclature the way army uses it.

For example:

(1) Artillery: Troops ----> Battery--->Regiment
(2) Armored: Troops --->Squadron---->Regiment
(3) Infantry: Section ----> Platoon--->Company--->Battalion

This organizational structure has impact on employment and usage. The basic unit (Troop or Section) is the minimum size required for a cohesive force to make an impact. Even in case of tube artillery, Battery has 06 guns divided into 2 x Troops of 03 guns each. An artillery regiment can be deployed in terms of troops but no smaller. So, you'll not have one or two guns deployed. It is generally in terms of troops and batteries.

Same is the case with Akash; basic fire unit is 4 x Launchers + Rajendra. It can be a troop or a battery or a flight (like IAF where flight cannot be sub-divided).

In case of army, it cannot be Troops ---> Regiment.

Either we're back to the old debate of the DRDO poster being wrongly labelled (it is not, I've checked) or an Akash Regiment has 06 Batteries and 12 Troops. And I'm very sure of this part.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby rohitvats » 19 May 2019 10:53

My comments in color.

Karan M wrote:Rohit - three quick notes:

1. An old R&DE article clearly mentions Army has 24 launchers per regiment, IMHO that rules out the 2x troops per battery possibility

[ AD artillery generally has 24 units in each regiment. For example, L-70 Regiment has 04 batteries of 6 guns each, for a total of 24 guns. Here again, each battery has two troops of 03 guns each. Each troops has its own Flycatcher FCR to guide the guns. It is possible that someone simply took this structure and extrapolated it to Akash Regiments]

2. Rohinis ordered by IAF were 45, 37 for surveillance (Low level radar requirement) and 8 for the Akash squadrons, so the article on 100 3D CARs planned was most probably right

[ A 3D CAR at troop level for each troop within the regiment seems like a serious overkill to me. I can understand 2 x 3D_CAR for two sub-groups and may be, 1 or 2 more (I don't have any information either ways, if this is the case) to allow autonomous deployment of a troop in far-away locations but 12 3D_CAR per regiment (going by my calculation of number of troops), does not make sense.

For all we know, IA is using 3D_CAR for larger surveillance role with other AD assets. I will check on this]


3. 28 MPAR again matches the 6x troops / regiment numbers.

[ Actually, 2 x Regiments with 12 Troops per regiment, requires 24 Rajendra radars. 24+4 fits quite well into that]

<SNIP>

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 19 May 2019 13:40

Rohit, the article was specifically about Akash orders, mentioned the AF squadrons have 8 launchers, and hence the overall orders were 64. Also mentioned the Army orders were for 48 launchers.
Ok, here we have it. I think this settles the issue. The website was updated just before the bulk orders for the first 2 regiments were placed.

https://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/labs1/RDE(E)/English/indexnew.jsp?pg=products.jsp

A mobile launcher for launching of AAD surface-to-Air Missile has been successfully developed and realized. AAFL is to carry, support, orient and launch three AKASH articles from an inclined firing position. AAFL is capable of executing tracking commands in slave mode (auto mode). The AAFL is also be capable of orientation of the articles in elevation and azimuth plane simultaneously to commanded positions accurately within specified time duration. The Akash Air Force Launcher is a Trailer mounted Launcher system carrying three Articles. Realisation of Production Order for Launchers completed and handed over (Two Sqdns) and Support Systems (AF version) being productionised through BEL for AF and 48 launchers for Army with other ground systems likely to be released. Army acceptance likely for six batteries (24 Nos) of Wheeled version


IIRC later, all versions released were for wheeled version.

Also:

[ A 3D CAR at troop level for each troop within the regiment seems like a serious overkill to me. I can understand 2 x 3D_CAR for two sub-groups and may be, 1 or 2 more (I don't have any information either ways, if this is the case) to allow autonomous deployment of a troop in far-away locations but 12 3D_CAR per regiment (going by my calculation of number of troops), does not make sense.

For all we know, IA is using 3D_CAR for larger surveillance role with other AD assets. I will check on this]


Definitely overkill if you are ok with troops not being autonomous. If you want autonomous troops detached from HQ unit, then a 3D CAR is required.
Remember, once the Akash starts its FCR role it can't do its 360 degree search role. It ca search only ahead of its radar position, and guides the missiles (4x targets, 2/target). So a 3D radar for 360 degree search is essential.

[ Actually, 2 x Regiments with 12 Troops per regiment, requires 24 Rajendra radars. 24+4 fits quite well into that]


The 28x MPAR was for the entire order.

So, 8 squadrons IAF: 16 flights x MPAR
2x regiments IA: 6x 2 = 12 troops x MPAR

So 28x MPAR.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby rohitvats » 19 May 2019 14:18

Well, if its six batteries, than the DRDO poster is wrong. Troop and batteries are not interchangeable terms.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 19 May 2019 14:33

The thing is from the orders perspective they well might be. The IA may well have re-jigged its typical orbat per Akash structure.

That poster shows 6 batteries = 6 troops & 2HQ adding up to 12 MPAR + 24 launchers (4/troop or battery). We now have multiple sources confirming the same.

Also, even service guys make goof ups when talking of this entire SAM business. I was all along under the impression we were getting 5 firing units of S-400 as an IAF guy indicated that to MOD. Now we know its 5 squadrons, and in IAF parlance each should have 2 FU = 2 batteries.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 19 May 2019 16:06

Had to dig a lot for this.
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... s?from=mdr

The Army has initially ordered two Akash regiments, with six firing batteries.

The total cost of the order which includes hundreds of missiles is about Rs 19,500 crore, defence sources said.


They said that the first full regiment should be ready by June-July and the second one by end of 2016.

IAF has already inducted its own version of the missile system.


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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 19 May 2019 16:24

BTW, head over to the strat forum. Short term elections thread is up. Need you there as well.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Kakarat » 22 May 2019 17:06

https://twitter.com/IAF_MCC/status/1131156968876306437
#RulingTheSkies : IAF successfully fired the #BrahMos air version missile from its frontline Su-30 MKI fighter aircraft today. The launch from the aircraft was smooth & the missile followed the desired trajectory before directly hitting the land target.

Image

https://twitter.com/IAF_MCC/status/1131157013365321733
BrahMos provides IAF the capability to strike from large stand-off ranges on any target at sea or on land with pinpoint accuracy by day or night in any weather condition. Brahmos coupled with the superlative performance of Su-30MKI gives IAF the desired strategic reach.

Image

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby sudhan » 22 May 2019 18:43

Livefist has shared this unique shot of a Bmos test fire. Could be from an older test (as seen on the timestamp)

Image

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby chaitanya » 22 May 2019 22:27

What a shot! Looks straight out of classic star wars

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby VinodTK » 23 May 2019 02:17

^^^AF carries out aerial version of BrahMos missile fired from Sukhoi-30MKI
NEW DELHI: The supersonic BrahMos cruise missile, with a strike range of 290-km, was tested from a frontline Sukhoi-30MKI fighter jet in the Andaman and Nicobar archipelago on Wednesday, in yet another step towards the country acquiring formidable precision strike capability from long or “stand-off” distances.

This was the second test-firing of the air-launched version of the BrahMos missile, which flies almost three times the speed of sound at Mach 2.8, after the first was conducted over the Bay of Bengal in November 2017.

The BrahMos missile, whose range is now being extended, in conjunction with the Sukhoi-30MKI fighter, which has a cruising range of 3,200-km or a combat radius of about 1,500-km without mid-air refuelling, constitutes a deadly weapons package. It can be used to take out terror camps, underground nuclear bunkers, aircraft carriers on the high seas and other military targets from “stand-off” distances by day or night in all-weather conditions, as was earlier reported by TOI.

“The launch of the missile, which weighs 2.5-tonne, from the aircraft on Wednesday was smooth. The missile followed the desired trajectory before directly hitting the land target,” said IAF spokesperson Group Captain Anupam Banerjee.

“The integration of BrahMos on the Sukhoi-30MKI was a very complex process, involving mechanical, electrical and software modifications on the aircraft. The capability of the missile coupled with the superlative performance of the Sukhoi-30MKI aircraft gives the IAF the desired strategic reach,” he added.

The Army is now inducting the 4th BrahMos Regiment, which will be the missile’s Block-III version that has steep dive, trajectory manoeuver and top-attack capabilities, while the Navy has deployed the BrahMos missiles on over 10 frontline warships. The IAF, in turn, has inducted two squadrons of the land-launch missiles, even as the force awaits for the air-launched version.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby jaysimha » 23 May 2019 15:00

http://pib.nic.in/newsite/PrintRelease. ... lid=190066
Press Information Bureau
Government of India
Ministry of Defence
22-May-2019 16:54 IST
Successful Firing of BrahMos Air Launched Missile from Su-30 MKI Aircraft

Today, IAF successfully fired the BrahMos air version missile from its frontline Su-30 MKI fighter aircraft. The launch from the aircraft was smooth and the missile followed the desired trajectory before directly hitting the land target.



The air launched BrahMos missile is a 2.5 ton supersonic air to surface cruise missile with ranges of close to 300 km, designed and developed by BAPL. The IAF became the first Air Force in the world to have successfully fired an air launched 2.8 Mach surface attack missile of this category on a sea target on 22 Nov 17. Today’s was the second such live launch of the weapon. The integration of the weapon on the aircraft was a very complex process involving mechanical, electrical and software modifications on aircraft. The IAF has been involved in the activity from its inception. The software development of the aircraft was undertaken by the IAF engineers while HAL carried out mechanical and electrical modifications on the aircraft. The dedicated and synergetic efforts of the IAF, DRDO, BAPL and HAL have proven the capability of the nation to undertake such complex integrations.



The firing could be successfully undertaken with dedicated support from Indian Navy by way of ensuring availability of a large number of monitoring ships to ensure range safety clearance.



The BrahMos missile provides Indian Air Force a much desired capability to strike from large stand-off ranges on any target at sea or on land with pinpoint accuracy by day or night and in all weather conditions. The capability of the missile coupled with the superlative performance of the Su-30MKI aircraft gives the IAF the desired strategic reach.

AB/BSK
Image

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ArjunPandit » 23 May 2019 22:45

1. It seems to be a message to xina just in case they think of coming to save their nanha munna.
2. are there any significant changes in the missile?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby fanne » 24 May 2019 07:26

Is the range really 290 Km. If it is more,(far more, maybe something like 600 km) how the guidance accuracy is achieved.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby jaysimha » 24 May 2019 16:21

Last edited by jaysimha on 24 May 2019 18:13, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Singha » 24 May 2019 16:53

what is the conformal bulge in middle of fuselage with a black window? rwr?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby A Sharma » 24 May 2019 17:08

From ANI News
DRDO today successfully test-fired an indigenously-developed 500 kg inertially Guided Bomb at the Pokhran test firing range in Rajasthan. The bomb hit its target at 30 km with high precision.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby arvin » 24 May 2019 17:16

Singha wrote:what is the conformal bulge in middle of fuselage with a black window? rwr?


Could be the counterpart of the camera which took the above pic. RWR are generally placed in obstruction free area like top of vertical tail to get a sense of direction.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby jaysimha » 24 May 2019 17:29

Singha wrote:what is the conformal bulge in middle of fuselage with a black window? rwr?

may be gps/navik antenna

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Kakarat » 24 May 2019 17:37

https://twitter.com/ANI/status/1131879485651861504
#Visuals: DRDO today successfully test-fired an indigenously-developed 500 kg inertially Guided Bomb at the Pokhran test firing range in Rajasthan. The bomb hit its target at 30 km with high precision.


Image
Image

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Singha » 24 May 2019 17:47

looks like 10 feet miss distance. must be garuda or garuthma.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 24 May 2019 17:58

Looks less than 10 ft.
That first circle should be 3mtrs, i.e. 10 fit. So its within that.

Look at the vertical trajectory!!

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karthik S » 24 May 2019 19:06

Image

Another BrahMos test. What's up with all these tests? Me picturing boxer shooting his fists before a fight.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Kakarat » 24 May 2019 19:11

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1131902102576484357
Guided 500kg bomb tested from an IAF Su-30MKI today over Pokhran, says @DRDO_India.

Image
Image
Image
Image

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karthik S » 24 May 2019 19:28

Gurus, if we develop heavier version 2000 KG version of the same bomb, it can be used as bunker buster given 90 degree impact.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ArjunPandit » 24 May 2019 20:03

Karthik S wrote:Image

Another BrahMos test. What's up with all these tests? Me picturing boxer shooting his fists before a fight.

given that we dont have Vishy level chess players, we're promoting chess in India again

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 24 May 2019 20:57

This is Garuda, 30km Glide Bomb.

Garuthma, is the 100km version with wings.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 24 May 2019 20:59

Image

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby chiru » 24 May 2019 21:12

Singha wrote:what is the conformal bulge in middle of fuselage with a black window? rwr?


It's the aerodynamic cover for the landing gear lock.

Image

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby deejay » 24 May 2019 21:26

Karan M wrote:Looks less than 10 ft.
That first circle should be 3mtrs, i.e. 10 fit. So its within that.

Look at the vertical trajectory!!


Anything within the inner circle is a Direct Hit.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Prasad » 24 May 2019 22:07

Image

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Bart S » 24 May 2019 22:24

^What kind of testing is this (shown in the image)?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Indranil » 24 May 2019 22:44

That is at ORANGE. So RCS.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby shaun » 24 May 2019 22:47

RCS measurement

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby deejay » 24 May 2019 23:33

Radar Cross Section at the RCS range

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 24 May 2019 23:53

DRDO Annual Report 2016. ORANGE testing oF Garuthma and Garuda both.

https://i.imgur.com/6YeKpgd.jpg

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Bart S » 25 May 2019 00:48

That is very interesting. So they have put in a lot of effort to make it low RCS as well, though it doesn't have the traditional form factor associated with stealth shaping.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 25 May 2019 00:52

Basically older AD in service en masse with PLAAF/PAF will struggle to engage these units at range.


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