Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 28 May 2019 20:16

JayS wrote:
ArjunPandit wrote:^^to be fair, no journo gets to write his headings. That said he's the same guy who peddled Abhi disobeyed orders
Its not just the headline but the content too is like sales material for imported maal. Doesn't even consider Astra Mk1 as an option which also has 100km range, which in brochure to brochure comparison be enough for Su30 for not "outgunning" by F16. It also says 10yrs for Astra MK2.

Sir, How far Astra Mk2 is ? These import will kill it if not getting ready soon.

titash · Post by **titash** » 28 May 2019 20:17

cross-post from su-30 thread:

why not just put a big-ass booster on the Astra/R-77? Make it a longer ranged 2-stage weapon. Its not like the Su-30 lacks load carrying ability. These would be fired off at extreme range before the WVR merge.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 28 May 2019 20:18

JayS wrote:
ArjunPandit wrote:^^to be fair, no journo gets to write his headings. That said he's the same guy who peddled Abhi disobeyed orders
Its not just the headline but the content too is like sales material for imported maal. Doesn't even consider Astra Mk1 as an option which also has 100km range, which in brochure to brochure comparison be enough for Su30 for not "outgunning" by F16. It also says 10yrs for Astra MK2.

Bingo! Even the R-77 details are dodgy.

Also note the entire bit about Su-30s being totally defensive and desperate to dodge the AMRAAMs - language indicates what the subliminal idea being is IMHO. Compare & contrast to all accounts from AVM Subramaniam, Sameer Joshi, several others.

Also, what is the unfinished agenda from the previous administration which is coming up.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 28 May 2019 21:39

Vishnu has to do what he has to do. But he is not anti desi. His support for LCA etc. is quite evident.

Sometimes, I feel that the only thing that has saved our desi RnD is our slow procurement process.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 28 May 2019 21:42

Indranil, he has been implying that the LCA Mk2 will be obsolete, and LCA was inferior to the Gripen.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 28 May 2019 21:49

tsarkar wrote:What does QRSAM do differently than Akash?

The entire focus of QRSAM is reaction time (as the name says). The agility of the system, ability to track on the move etc. all fall under that basket. As you know QRSAM is the last line of defense. So reaction time is measured in seconds. Target acquisition to missile launch; and launch to intercept are all measured in low tens of seconds. The target is close, so the radar does not have to be so powerful. Neither does the missile need. But, its acceleration and agility has to be extremely fast. The acceleration of QRSAM-class missile has to be seen to be believed. If you see the launch side on without a count down, it is faster than persistence of vision.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 28 May 2019 21:53

Karan M wrote:Indranil, he has been implying that the LCA Mk2 will be obsolete, and LCA was inferior to the Gripen.

I know. It is still better than most of our defense "journalists".

That's why I have been asking you to write. A write up on LCAs ears and nose is long overdue. There are very few from the jingo community who can do a better job at it than you!

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 28 May 2019 22:07

Indranil wrote:
Karan M wrote:Indranil, he has been implying that the LCA Mk2 will be obsolete, and LCA was inferior to the Gripen.
I know. It is still better than most of our defense "journalists".

That's why I have been asking you to write. A write up on LCAs ears and nose is long overdue. There are very few from the jingo community who can do a better job at it than you!

JayS, Indra and KaranM, you guys are delight to read. Putyour hands to keyboard

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 28 May 2019 22:12

Indranil wrote:
Karan M wrote:Indranil, he has been implying that the LCA Mk2 will be obsolete, and LCA was inferior to the Gripen.
I know. It is still better than most of our defense "journalists".

That's why I have been asking you to write. A write up on LCAs ears and nose is long overdue. There are very few from the jingo community who can do a better job at it than you!

your keyboard to his fingers

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 28 May 2019 22:13

@Indranil, disagree with you on VishnuSom.

His video was the first one which alleged that Wing Commander Abhinandan disobeyed orders. Such a report was completely unnecessary but he still put out there. If that is not anti-India then what is? Well, his channel was also one of the first ones that started naming Abhi even before his family could be informed. He's the one plugging Gripen after his joyrides. xxxxxx edited xxxxxx
---------------------------

Mod note: No name calling please.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 28 May 2019 23:01

Indranil wrote:This is a significant development.
1. It Mark's the coming off age of A2A seeker. IAF/IA/DRDO must be happy with this seekers performance to field it on Astra, QRSAM and Akash.
2. With this seeler the Pk of the missile has gone up significantly. People in the know are saying that the salvo firing of two Akash missiles to ensure a kill will not be required.
3. With this seeker, the missiles range has been augmented to 35 km.
4. I won't be surprised if all slash missiles won't be retrofitted with this seeker.
5. Over to akash mk2 now

what's a slash missile ?

nam · Post by **nam** » 28 May 2019 23:07

titash wrote:cross-post from su-30 thread:

why not just put a big-ass booster on the Astra/R-77? Make it a longer ranged 2-stage weapon. Its not like the Su-30 lacks load carrying ability. These would be fired off at extreme range before the WVR merge.

Frankly range is not the prime capability to get a BVR kill. There is no history of a BVR kill above 50KM! Longer range though gives the ability to kick your opponent off station..not kill him. Like PAF F16 did with Su30.

Another aspect is where you are when firing the BVR. If you have a rocket powered BVR and your target is above you.. then the BVR is going to loose energy chasing the target "up".

Jets "throw" BVR up in the sky, like throwing a ball. Interia and gravity then helps rocket powered BVR to achieve range and speed. Higher the throw, allowing longer glide towards the target..

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 28 May 2019 23:07

Rahul,

He meant Akash.

Phone autocorrect I bet.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 28 May 2019 23:09

Indranil wrote:
Karan M wrote:Indranil, he has been implying that the LCA Mk2 will be obsolete, and LCA was inferior to the Gripen.
I know. It is still better than most of our defense "journalists".

That's why I have been asking you to write. A write up on LCAs ears and nose is long overdue. There are very few from the jingo community who can do a better job at it than you!

Ok, will start collecting stuff.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 28 May 2019 23:13

Karan, my man, your article(s) on Indian radars, missiles & munitions are long overdue. with the plethora of work being done it's a situation of blink and you miss it.

I am finding it hard to keep track of which radar goes into which system, which seeker is shared by which missiles, which munitions fill into which niche and so on. All this in spite of reading BRF religiously everyday.

I am sure I am not the only one.

Please have mercy on our souls and at least write an overview of the projects for BR mainsite.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 28 May 2019 23:19

JTull wrote:@Indranil, disagree with you on VishnuSom.

His video was the first one which alleged that Wing Commander Abhinandan disobeyed orders. Such a report was completely unnecessary but he still put out there. If that is not anti-India then what is? Well, his channel was also one of the first ones that started naming Abhi even before his family could be informed. He's the one plugging Gripen after his joyrides. xxxxxx edited xxxxxx
---------------------------

Mod note: No name calling please.

I understand your frustration. Actually, I am with you. But, here are a few things to consider, obvious ones.

1. I think we should give journalists the leeway to report on both sides (desi and imports). In fact, they should. You don't want DRDO to have a completely free hand if they make substandard weapons without a reason.
2. Naming Abhi before IAF/MoD was a grave mistake. We don't know how Vishnu feels about it in hindsight. I hope he feels that he made a mistake. But such is this (nasty) news business. They are in a race to "break" news. I saw Vishnu fully endorsing Abhi later on at least.

I don't follow any of the news channels these days. The SNR is too low for me to care. How was the tone on reporting of "Abhi crossed the line against orders". Was it: "here's a case of a rogue pilot"? Or was it "Our soldier put duty over his personal safety"?

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 28 May 2019 23:19

Karan M wrote:Rahul,

He meant Akash. Phone autocorrect I bet.

Correct!

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 29 May 2019 00:32

such is the number of projects nowadays that I thought that there might well be a slash missile and I knew nothing about it.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 29 May 2019 02:38

I wouldn't start shooting the messenger yet. Vishnu's not doing anything but informing people of the likelihood of the I-Derby ER BVRAAM being integrated on the Su-30MKI. We were similarly skeptical of Shiv Aroor's claim on the ASRAAM being integrated with the Tejas and now it that news is confirmed to be true.

Besides which, we already were well aware of the R-77's limitations. and about Russian ware not meeting advertised specs. Nothing new here. Except this was a real shooting encounter and no longer an academic discussion. And the IAF is fully aware of what really transpired and will have to act on recommendations coming out of the internal studies on the encounter.

This may not be a bad thing for a stop-gap arrangement, till the Astra Mk2 or SFDR results in a deployable weapon. And in fact it is this weapon that should be there on the Tejas Mk1 and Mk1A and not the older Derby. At least till Astra comes into serial production.

Leaves me feeling uneasy about the other air defence fighter that has no option but to continue using the R-77- our 3 squadrons of MiG-29UPGs likely to be supplemented by another squadron. Why hasn't the IAF prioritized integrating this type with the Astra? Same goes for the Mirage-2000I upgrade..the MICA-EM is not even as long ranged as the R-77. Will give the first shot advantage to the PAF's F-16s with the AIM-120C5.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 29 May 2019 02:41

Indranil wrote:
JTull wrote:@Indranil, disagree with you on VishnuSom.

His video was the first one which alleged that Wing Commander Abhinandan disobeyed orders. Such a report was completely unnecessary but he still put out there. If that is not anti-India then what is? Well, his channel was also one of the first ones that started naming Abhi even before his family could be informed. He's the one plugging Gripen after his joyrides. xxxxxx edited xxxxxx
---------------------------

Mod note: No name calling please.
I understand your frustration. Actually, I am with you. But, here are a few things to consider, obvious ones.

1. I think we should give journalists the leeway to report on both sides (desi and imports). In fact, they should. You don't want DRDO to have a completely free hand if they make substandard weapons without a reason.
2. Naming Abhi before IAF/MoD was a grave mistake. We don't know how Vishnu feels about it in hindsight. I hope he feels that he made a mistake. But such is this (nasty) news business. They are in a race to "break" news. I saw Vishnu fully endorsing Abhi later on at least.

I don't follow any of the news channels these days. The SNR is too low for me to care. How was the tone on reporting of "Abhi crossed the line against orders". Was it: "here's a case of a rogue pilot"? Or was it "Our soldier put duty over his personal safety"?

About 2 we see no evidence of that remorse.
he and that dead hand guy.
And they will sure get their marching orders hopefully.
along with other rascals who participated in spreading the news before the family was notified.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 29 May 2019 02:45

kit wrote:
nits wrote:

It looks as a response to Pak Missile (1500Km) test conducted on Election Counting day
dont think akash has ABM capability

During Desert Storm the RM Adviser of that time used to say for low speed Short range Ballastic Missiles, Akash with its powered all the way missile would perform better than the patriot.

The 1S seeker frees it from command guidance and gives more range.
Don't be surprised if 1S is tested against a Prithvi type target

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 29 May 2019 02:50

ashishvikas wrote:Outgunned By Pak F-16s, IAF Plans To Re-Arm Its Sukhois With Israeli Missiles

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/outgunn ... es-2044172

Its a Paki propaganda genre article.

Basically Hindus can beat Pakistan without Yehudi or Yankee help.
Further he writes

To meet its requirements, the IAF is looking at the I-Derby variant of the Israeli missile which was unveiled at the Paris Air Show in 2015. Integrating the missile into the Russian fighter will be a challenge and, according to sources, will require Israeli expertise, particularly in developing a data-link between the Sukhoi-30 and the missile, once it is fired. A fighter jet communicates with the missile through the data link and passes on updated vectors (location) of the fighter which has been targeted.

Now which MoD person will sign off on this when Su-30 MKI is already integrated with Astra?
Must be some arms peddlers with chair marshals came up with this imminent threat.

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 29 May 2019 03:46

Karan M wrote:
titash wrote:I predict a mix of guidance modes. The active seeker is < 15 km range, and is relatively low powered if jammed. The rajendra is a very high power (relatively) radar and in the absence of ARMs (e.g. small sized raids by 1-2 aircraft or cruise missiles) is actually a very solid option
>13 km. Exact range not specified. And RCS is usually ~2sq mtrs, so 25% more against a loaded fighter from below/sides. This is an Astra sized seeker ported into Akash.

...
And with MTI, chaff will be ignored as well.

...

Whats MTI?

Roop · Post by **Roop** » 29 May 2019 05:17

sudeepj wrote: Whats MTI?

Moving Target Indication. The radar signal processor uses the Doppler shift to detect a moving target (as opposed to a stationary one).

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 29 May 2019 05:52

Read Vishnu's article. There is a bit of unnecessary sensationalism for sure. And yes, Pakis will take that article and make merry. It could very well be the other way around. The F16 drivers knew they had no shot by launching the BVRs at their max range. It was their defensive ploy.

Any how, the main point is that IAF is considering arming Su-30s with a better BVR. I hope they wait for Astra Mk2.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 29 May 2019 07:13

The astra mk1 needs induction in huge nos to replace the aa12 and aa10 stocks

But as usual we will import, kill the mk1 astra with a arjun type token order and then badmouth the mk2 when it does not happen

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 29 May 2019 07:52

May be Gurus can educate on the range of Astra Mk1 which Google says to be 110km. So it's higher than that of the I Derby ER which is at 100km onlee. Regarding Vishnu, he is a patriotic Pesudo Secular. Mostly a product of Pesudo Secular Education. He used to be here debating with us. He loves India but has to be on the Nautangi Pseudo secular brigade and has to write articles for the same. A kind of MMS of NDTV.

srai · Post by **srai** » 29 May 2019 09:41

Singha wrote:The astra mk1 needs induction in huge nos to replace the aa12 and aa10 stocks

But as usual we will import, kill the mk1 astra with a arjun type token order and then badmouth the mk2 when it does not happen

Current order for Astra Mk.1 is 50. Let’s see how many more are ordered after pre-production.

As per the article, Mk.2 is 10-years away.

Past experience tells us Indian end users love to wait for the unobtainium desi world beater!

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 29 May 2019 11:22

Rahul M wrote:such is the number of projects nowadays that I thought that there might well be a slash missile and I knew nothing about it.

uddu wrote:May be Gurus can educate on the range of Astra Mk1 which Google says to be 110km. So it's higher than that of the I Derby ER which is at 100km onlee. Regarding Vishnu, he is a patriotic Pesudo Secular. Mostly a product of Pesudo Secular Education. He used to be here debating with us. He loves India but has to be on the Nautangi Pseudo secular brigade and has to write articles for the same. A kind of MMS of NDTV.

I wonder whether he'd prefer being called names than such an an analysis.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 29 May 2019 11:54

Look some of this stuff is a sales pitch, IAF was probably surprised Pak was willing to waste AAM's, but it seems they have tactic to disperse enemy aircraft for thier attack, in a war wasting AAM would be stupid, but for H&D they did and broke ROE, we can always do the same especially a Mach 2+ High altitude the Su-30 will have long NEZ compared to F-16's, thats why in the month of March 2019 even when IAF aircraft came right upto to LOC and even videos taken by those on the ground in PAK, the PAF did not turn up.

27 Feb was a specific plan PAF had prepared in advance, now PAF has shown some of their cards, they just came and shot first and missed, IAF could have done the same but followed ROE. Now Israelis are making a sales pitch.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 29 May 2019 14:07

Kartik, issue is if the PAF lobbed their AMRAAMs from a perch, they may have got a significant range boost.

Straight out of the USAF BVR playbook (they do this using F-22s and AESA equipped F-15s). 100 marks for theory, zero for execution, because the USAF would have done a series of expensive tests against every use case, different ranges, speeds of target, profiles, w and w/o EW.

Our PAF herrows can't afford all that, so they just did an extrapolation from their user manuals and tried to play F-22.

But with that kind of range differential (supersonic F-22s get ~30% boost at height), doubtful even Derby ER can manage such a situation.

Solid points about Mica vs AMRAAM, Astra.

Kartik wrote:I wouldn't start shooting the messenger yet. Vishnu's not doing anything but informing people of the likelihood of the I-Derby ER BVRAAM being integrated on the Su-30MKI. We were similarly skeptical of Shiv Aroor's claim on the ASRAAM being integrated with the Tejas and now it that news is confirmed to be true.

Besides which, we already were well aware of the R-77's limitations. and about Russian ware not meeting advertised specs. Nothing new here. Except this was a real shooting encounter and no longer an academic discussion. And the IAF is fully aware of what really transpired and will have to act on recommendations coming out of the internal studies on the encounter.

This may not be a bad thing for a stop-gap arrangement, till the Astra Mk2 or SFDR results in a deployable weapon. And in fact it is this weapon that should be there on the Tejas Mk1 and Mk1A and not the older Derby. At least till Astra comes into serial production.

Leaves me feeling uneasy about the other air defence fighter that has no option but to continue using the R-77- our 3 squadrons of MiG-29UPGs likely to be supplemented by another squadron. Why hasn't the IAF prioritized integrating this type with the Astra? Same goes for the Mirage-2000I upgrade..the MICA-EM is not even as long ranged as the R-77. Will give the first shot advantage to the PAF's F-16s with the AIM-120C5.

srai · Post by **srai** » 29 May 2019 14:34

uddu wrote:May be Gurus can educate on the range of Astra Mk1 which Google says to be 110km. So it's higher than that of the I Derby ER which is at 100km onlee. Regarding Vishnu, he is a patriotic Pesudo Secular. Mostly a product of Pesudo Secular Education. He used to be here debating with us. He loves India but has to be on the Nautangi Pseudo secular brigade and has to write articles for the same. A kind of MMS of NDTV.

Range of AAMs varies with variables, such as launch altitude, launch speed, target head-on/receding, target speed, target altitude, target maneuvering, EW employment, and other environmental conditions. Brochure values tend to report the most ideal range scenario. You won’t shoot down a modern fighter at those ranges. No Escape Zone (NEZ) range is far less (somewhere in the 20-30km area).

With the above in mind as far as Astra Mk.1 goes, the following has been reported:

Head-on
-> 15 km with 90 to 110 km range
-> 30,000 ft to 44 km range
-> Sea level to 30 km range

Receding
-> 15 km with 20 km range

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 29 May 2019 14:43

Indranil wrote:Read Vishnu's article. There is a bit of unnecessary sensationalism for sure. And yes, Pakis will take that article and make merry. It could very well be the other way around. The F16 drivers knew they had no shot by launching the BVRs at their max range. It was their defensive ploy.

Any how, the main point is that IAF is considering arming Su-30s with a better BVR. I hope they wait for Astra Mk2.

Unnecessary sensationalism in more and more of his articles. Political slant as well. The cloud-radar thing had his bias open and on flagrant display. Unfortunate that one of our better journalists is headed this way.

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 29 May 2019 14:52

Karan M wrote:
Rahul M wrote:such is the number of projects nowadays that I thought that there might well be a slash missile and I knew nothing about it.

until it was clarified, i thought it is a new WVR missile,

suits its name...

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 29 May 2019 14:53

srai wrote:
uddu wrote:May be Gurus can educate on the range of Astra Mk1 which Google says to be 110km. So it's higher than that of the I Derby ER which is at 100km onlee. Regarding Vishnu, he is a patriotic Pesudo Secular. Mostly a product of Pesudo Secular Education. He used to be here debating with us. He loves India but has to be on the Nautangi Pseudo secular brigade and has to write articles for the same. A kind of MMS of NDTV.
Range of AAMs varies with variables, such as launch altitude, launch speed, target head-on/receding, target speed, target altitude, target maneuvering, EW employment, and other environmental conditions. Brochure values tend to report the most ideal range scenario. You won’t shoot down a modern fighter at those ranges. No Escape Zone (NEZ) range is far less (somewhere in the 20-30km area).

With the above in mind as far as Astra Mk.1 goes, the following has been reported:

Head-on
-> 15 km with 90 to 110 km range
-> 30,000 ft to 44 km range
-> Sea level to 30 km range

Receding
-> 15 km with 20 km range

And generally fighters move from head on to receding targets, it will complicated math to what is the actual engagment range in such scenarios.

kit · Post by **kit** » 29 May 2019 18:49

Indranil wrote:Read Vishnu's article. There is a bit of unnecessary sensationalism for sure. And yes, Pakis will take that article and make merry. It could very well be the other way around. The F16 drivers knew they had no shot by launching the BVRs at their max range. It was their defensive ploy.

Any how, the main point is that IAF is considering arming Su-30s with a better BVR. I hope they wait for Astra Mk2.

maybe an idiotic question. Can you fire the AIM 120 without a radar lock?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 29 May 2019 19:16

Use missile radar for lock you mean, yes. Cue it by IRST.

sudhan · Post by **sudhan** » 29 May 2019 19:19

kit wrote:
Indranil wrote:Read Vishnu's article. There is a bit of unnecessary sensationalism for sure. And yes, Pakis will take that article and make merry. It could very well be the other way around. The F16 drivers knew they had no shot by launching the BVRs at their max range. It was their defensive ploy.

Any how, the main point is that IAF is considering arming Su-30s with a better BVR. I hope they wait for Astra Mk2.
maybe an idiotic question. Can you fire the AIM 120 without a radar lock?

Yes, they have the possibility as per open sources.. Basically fire without a radar lock and the missile locks on to the first object it 'sees' in range..

The pakis most likely did this on the 27th Feb try and break the MKI formation that was charging into battle.

srai · Post by **srai** » 29 May 2019 19:33

^^^
Astra Mk.1 supports both LOBL and LOAL launch modes.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 29 May 2019 19:54

Just slap a dual pulse motor on the darn thing and get it into service. Otherwise, we are stuck in a never ending cycle. IAF will ask for Derby ER square because in the next shootout Rafale had to dodge some new fangled Chinese space rocket and Meteor could not reach them back.