Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

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kit
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby kit » 29 May 2019 20:16

Karan M wrote:Use missile radar for lock you mean, yes. Cue it by IRST.


aha .. use the sniper pods given by uncle to fight the taliban air farce !!

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby JTull » 29 May 2019 20:46

I just don't understand why do we need 2-3 years to qualify desi missiles on our aircraft but accept foreign maal as ready to go. Why aren't there umpteen wind tunnel, integration, carriage, separation and firing tests? Why should IDerby be quicker to qualify on Su-30MKI than Astra, Brahmos-A, NGARM, etc.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby manjgu » 29 May 2019 21:11

Isreal is seen to be using its own products and also had multiple customers who have purchased the said missiles and other products. Unless we induct our own stuff..and use it and try to sell it others, we cant inspire confidence in our products. also the said missiles come from a company which has delivered quality stuff in the past. AND quite possibly there is money to be made in imports and foreign jaunts.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Indranil » 29 May 2019 21:14

Nirbhay is being scaled down slightly:
Diamter: 505 mm
Length: 5600 mm
Weight: 810-975 kg

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ramana » 29 May 2019 21:30

Indranil wrote:Nirbhay is being scaled down slightly:
Diamter: 505 mm
Length: 5600 mm
Weight: 810-975 kg

What was it before?
And why this redesign?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Indranil » 29 May 2019 21:33

Diameter: 520 mm
Length: 6036 mm
Weight: >1100 kgs

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Jaeger » 29 May 2019 22:06

Indranil wrote:Nirbhay is being scaled down slightly:
Diamter: 505 mm
Length: 5600 mm
Weight: 810-975 kg


Optimising for torpedo tube launch? Specifically Scorpenes which have Western sized tubes? Or for air launch optimisation?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ramana » 29 May 2019 22:27

JTull wrote:I just don't understand why do we need 2-3 years to qualify desi missiles on our aircraft but accept foreign maal as ready to go. Why aren't there umpteen wind tunnel, integration, carriage, separation and firing tests? Why should IDerby be quicker to qualify on Su-30MKI than Astra, Brahmos-A, NGARM, etc.



Well after long years on BRF you still ask this question?

As long as firangi maal is available India maal will be put through the wringer.

After Rafale was already delayed by the India specific equipment, now the IAF says need 1500 hours of flight to accept the equipment modified Rafales.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Kartik » 30 May 2019 00:32

JTull wrote:I just don't understand why do we need 2-3 years to qualify desi missiles on our aircraft but accept foreign maal as ready to go. Why aren't there umpteen wind tunnel, integration, carriage, separation and firing tests? Why should IDerby be quicker to qualify on Su-30MKI than Astra, Brahmos-A, NGARM, etc.


Because the Derby is a proven product in use on existing platforms. the Astra isn't. Rafael will be testing out the Derby-ER on their own, but the 2 year time frame is for the wind tunnel testing, the carriage trials, followed by flight testing with unguided shots and finally guided shots. A lot of work is required for the integration, but the Derby ER's basic testing will follow on from the Derby and that is Rafael's job.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Kartik » 30 May 2019 00:34

Jane's Rahul Bedi is also confirming the news that Vishnu Som broke. Apparently the deal is "imminent".

IAF plans to arm its Su-30MKI fleet with i-Derby-ER BVRAAMs

The Indian Air Force (IAF) is planning to arm its fleet of Sukhoi Su-30MKI multirole fighters with the Rafael Advanced Defense Systems I-Derby ER (extended range) beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile (BVRAAM) once the service phases out its ageing Russian-made Vympel R-77 (AA-12 ‘Adder’) AAMs by 2021–22.

Official sources told Jane’s that the IAF is in talks with Rafael to acquire the active radar-guided I-Derby ER, which has a range of 100 km, adding that the procurement process for the missiles could be finalised “imminently”.

The latest developments come after the fire-and-forget I-Derby ER missile, which features a software-defined radar seeker and a dual-pulse solid rocket motor, was selected to be the primary AAM to arm the IAF’s indigenously designed Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) following successful test-firings in July 2018.


An earlier version of the Derby, which can be configured as a surface-to-air missile, is also part of the IAF’s 18 Spyder-SR air-defence systems acquired from Rafael in 2008–09 for an estimated USD1 billion.

Delivery of the Spyder-SR systems, which included 750 Derby missiles, began in 2012 and was completed three years later.


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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Kartik » 30 May 2019 02:10

Some more details on the changes that were made to the i-Derby-ER from the original Derby BVRAAM. Range quoted as more than 60 miles which is more than 97 kms. So a 100 km+ range.

Rafael unveils long range Derby missile

Rafael’s Derby active-radar air-to-air missile has been in service since 1998 and is in operational service with six customers. To keep the missile capable of meeting current and future threats, Rafael has undertaken two major upgrades that not only improve seeker performance, but greatly increased range capability.

As a first step Rafael (Static A8) developed the I-Derby with an all-new seeker head and guidance package. The package is more flexible than the previous unit, with a better ability to control the waveform. Its electronic counter-countermeasures performance is improved, a necessary step to match and stay ahead of advances in electronic warfare systems. At the same time, the seeker retains the “lock-on before launch” function that gives the Derby a short-range “fire and forget” capability, in which the missile’s seeker head can be slaved to the pilot’s helmet display for close-in dogfighting.

I-Derby’s seeker/guidance package employs solid-state technology so that physical size and weight has been reduced. At the same time Rafael replaced the large proximity fuse fitted to the original missile with a much smaller RF-based fuse located at the base of the seeker’s radome.

Taken together, these enhancements have freed up considerable volume internally for the fitment of a larger propulsion system, resulting in the I-Derby ER. Rather than just increase the amount of propellant carried, Rafael opted for a dual-pulse motor. The initial launch pulse is similar to that of the original Derby, but a second pulse can now be fired at a time dictated by the missile’s flight control system, which detects when the weapon is running out of energy. Firing the second pulse is normally undertaken shortly before intercept, greatly increasing the missile’s maneuvering energy in the end-game as a means of expanding its no-escape zone.

At the same time, the I-Derby ER’s range is increased to more than 60 miles, placing it into the long-range category and allowing it to better exploit the greater capabilities being introduced by modern fighter radars. The missile is also completely interchangeable with the Derby used in Rafael’s Spyder-SR ground-based air defense system. Theoretically, I-Derby ER could also be adapted with a booster motor as used by the current Spyder-MR system, although Rafael sees little operational need for such a long-ranged system.


Last edited by Kartik on 31 May 2019 00:31, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Zynda » 30 May 2019 06:34

Do we need to go to Russia for the above to happen? Doesn't Derby need to speak with Bars to exploit the missile's capability as much as possible? Or do we have the necessary Bars source codes for the above to happen?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby uddu » 30 May 2019 07:44

Kartik wrote:
JTull wrote:I just don't understand why do we need 2-3 years to qualify desi missiles on our aircraft but accept foreign maal as ready to go. Why aren't there umpteen wind tunnel, integration, carriage, separation and firing tests? Why should IDerby be quicker to qualify on Su-30MKI than Astra, Brahmos-A, NGARM, etc.


Because the Derby is a proven product in use on existing platforms. the Astra isn't. Rafael will be testing out the Derby-ER on their own, but the 2 year time frame is for the wind tunnel testing, the carriage trials, followed by flight testing with unguided shots and finally guided shots. A lot of work is required for the integration, but the Derby ER's basic testing will follow on from the Derby and that is Rafael's job.


We can have both. Astra must be top priority and mass produced missile and i-derby integration if technically possible and financially cheap, that be done too.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 30 May 2019 13:10

Zynda wrote:Do we need to go to Russia for the above to happen? Doesn't Derby need to speak with Bars to exploit the missile's capability as much as possible? Or do we have the necessary Bars source codes for the above to happen?


We integrated Bars with Astra without going to Russia. Here, as Som's article correctly says, the datalink is the big deal. Finding the space for the datalink setup & EMI/EMC will be the key thing. Rest, IAF will likely have the Israelis come over and do the work.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 30 May 2019 13:11

Kartik interesting (and good news) is that i-Derby ER is standard fit for LCA as well. Any other sources to confirm this?

Kartik wrote:Jane's Rahul Bedi is also confirming the news that Vishnu Som broke. Apparently the deal is "imminent".

IAF plans to arm its Su-30MKI fleet with i-Derby-ER BVRAAMs

The Indian Air Force (IAF) is planning to arm its fleet of Sukhoi Su-30MKI multirole fighters with the Rafael Advanced Defense Systems I-Derby ER (extended range) beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile (BVRAAM) once the service phases out its ageing Russian-made Vympel R-77 (AA-12 ‘Adder’) AAMs by 2021–22.

Official sources told Jane’s that the IAF is in talks with Rafael to acquire the active radar-guided I-Derby ER, which has a range of 100 km, adding that the procurement process for the missiles could be finalised “imminently”.

The latest developments come after the fire-and-forget I-Derby ER missile, which features a software-defined radar seeker and a dual-pulse solid rocket motor, was selected to be the primary AAM to arm the IAF’s indigenously designed Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) following successful test-firings in July 2018.


An earlier version of the Derby, which can be configured as a surface-to-air missile, is also part of the IAF’s 18 Spyder-SR air-defence systems acquired from Rafael in 2008–09 for an estimated USD1 billion.

Delivery of the Spyder-SR systems, which included 750 Derby missiles, began in 2012 and was completed three years later.


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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 30 May 2019 13:13

If we are looking at a complete R77 replacement, that is several thousand missiles.

Also, Rafael claims the i-Derby ER is superior to the AMRAAM C7. Not the D. Given Israel operates the C7, this claim may be taken reasonably seriously.
PAF operates the C5.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Prasad » 30 May 2019 13:28

Given 2052 on the Tejas+MKI fleet, that is a **** ton of missiles.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 30 May 2019 13:31

DRDO will be running after Astra Mk2 like a dawg. Only good news is that due to QRSAM, Akash Mk1S - base Astra technologies will still be in series production for DRDO to work upon, improve. And private partners still get business.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Prasad » 30 May 2019 13:41

And why would you need 1000 Mk1s or the Mk2 after you've signed a deal for 5000 I-Derby-ER?
The ER version is cheaper than the METEOR.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 30 May 2019 13:45

I suspect Mk1 will languish by the wayside as we move to Mk2 (when it comes).

I look at subsystems and production partners to see they still get something. Right now we have the following missiles with common subsystems etc.
1. Akash Mk1S (electronics)
2. QRSAM (electronics, propulsion likely from MRSAM class)
3. NGARM (nav electronics, propulsion)
4. Rudra M2 (nav electronics, propulsion)
5. SRSAM Navy (?)

So the industrial ecosystem established for Astra won't disappear but the key suppliers will be disappointed for sure. Never mind the line established at BDL will languish.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby sajaym » 30 May 2019 14:13

Indranil wrote:Nirbhay is being scaled down slightly:
Diamter: 505 mm
Length: 5600 mm
Weight: 810-975 kg


If we can scale down the Nirbhay into similar dimensions as the Harpoon missile and operationalize it, our P-8I fleet will over night turn into a Strategic bomber fleet. :twisted:

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby nam » 30 May 2019 14:23

I take it will be a combination of Astra 1/2 and Derby on Su30.

Replacing thousands of R77 will take a long time. Having two source of BVR will cover this. Also complicate counter measures for adversary with BVR types on Su30.

DRDO should double down on SFDR. No point playing catch up, when IAF can easily get the same type from other source.. like Derby.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Cain Marko » 30 May 2019 15:02

I think the iaf has little choice but to go for an interim purchase of longer ranged aam than r77 or Astra or even c5 if it wants a straightforward advantage over tspaf. The other 3 are all of same range class. The Derby has the advantage of the dual pulse motor. In time the mk2 Astra or sfdr will take over.

Although I'm not exactly sure how they will integrate Israeli aam with mki. Maybe they will get source codes considering they'll be buying the same for the lca mk1a as well

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby JayS » 30 May 2019 15:05

Karan M wrote:I suspect Mk1 will languish by the wayside as we move to Mk2 (when it comes).


So easily we throw away hard work. When it was looking like we will finally have desi BVR in numbers we see another import gravy train starting. Whats the guarantee IAF will not drop ball on MK2 when its ready citing some other gold plated foren missile like Meteor..?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 30 May 2019 15:07

No guarantee at all. I am only taking solace from the fact our GBAD program is at least allowing DRDO to keep progressing its missile work.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby srin » 30 May 2019 15:13

I don't see it as very likely is it that this i-derby ER is cheaper than Astra Mk1. So there will be a sticker shock factor when they consider buying thousands.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 30 May 2019 15:22

Lol did sticker shock stop IAF from Rafale, MMRCA?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 30 May 2019 15:28

In the short term this purchase will redress the so called balance. Longer term problem remains. Eg where is the path for Uttam? Why are IAF guys not sitting down with DRDO to indigenize AESA FCRs?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby srin » 30 May 2019 15:57

^^^ Uttam - I'm really worried about. Presuming that 2052 is a done deal with Mk1A and HAL can put it on Mk2/AMCA or any other aircraft also if necessary (vague recollection of RFP from chor gupta site), it means that for Uttam to succeed in our gharki-murgi-dal-barabar environment, it must be significantly better than 2052 for it to see service on Tejas variants or AMCA in future.

Maybe if Elta starts playing too smart ... or if IAF really really desires Meteor on Tejas, and the Frenchies don't want to integrate with Israeli radars...

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby JTull » 30 May 2019 19:00

Indranil wrote:
JTull wrote:@Indranil, disagree with you on VishnuSom.

His video was the first one which alleged that Wing Commander Abhinandan disobeyed orders. Such a report was completely unnecessary but he still put out there. If that is not anti-India then what is? Well, his channel was also one of the first ones that started naming Abhi even before his family could be informed. He's the one plugging Gripen after his joyrides. xxxxxx edited xxxxxx
---------------------------

Mod note: No name calling please.

I understand your frustration. Actually, I am with you. But, here are a few things to consider, obvious ones.

1. I think we should give journalists the leeway to report on both sides (desi and imports). In fact, they should. You don't want DRDO to have a completely free hand if they make substandard weapons without a reason.
2. Naming Abhi before IAF/MoD was a grave mistake. We don't know how Vishnu feels about it in hindsight. I hope he feels that he made a mistake. But such is this (nasty) news business. They are in a race to "break" news. I saw Vishnu fully endorsing Abhi later on at least.

I don't follow any of the news channels these days. The SNR is too low for me to care. How was the tone on reporting of "Abhi crossed the line against orders". Was it: "here's a case of a rogue pilot"? Or was it "Our soldier put duty over his personal safety"?


Now Ghafoora is quoting Vishnu Som. Any doubts left to his loyalties? (PS: I'm not name calling :wink: )

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ramana » 30 May 2019 20:25

Cain Marko wrote:I think the iaf has little choice but to go for an interim purchase of longer ranged aam than r77 or Astra or even c5 if it wants a straightforward advantage over tspaf. The other 3 are all of same range class. The Derby has the advantage of the dual pulse motor. In time the mk2 Astra or sfdr will take over.

Although I'm not exactly sure how they will integrate Israeli aam with mki. Maybe they will get source codes considering they'll be buying the same for the lca mk1a as well



Wish Parrikar were still alive to call out this interim BS.
Demanding a Israeli AAM with a Russian radar is just making sure there are excuses.

How and who will pay for the integration?
Both Russia and Israelis have squeezed India many times for such jugaad systems.

And neither will take responsibility.

Always thirsting for imported new toys when local development which is delayed due to new requirements being piled on just before project completion.

During Kargil the Paveway guidance kits (from UK sources!) for the bombs did not fit as the adapter ring screws had mismatch. The kits were purchased without regard to suit Indian ordnance. It was DRDO and Israelis who had to work pronto to make these fit.
And the great Jaguar DPSA was a dud.
Many Air Marshals made their career selecting it since the 1970s.
It need the DARIN upgrades to make it useful.

All those R77s didn't they know that Fizzleya was getting 120Cs?
It was documented here from open sources.

The procurement system: IAF, Ministry, Political leaders all need overhaul.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ArjunPandit » 30 May 2019 20:29

^^did you slap somras seller with this argument?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ramana » 30 May 2019 20:30

Indranil wrote:Nirbhay is being scaled down slightly:
Diamter: 505 mm
Length: 5600 mm
Weight: 810-975 kg


from

Indranil wrote:Diameter: 520 mm
Length: 6036 mm
Weight: >1100 kgs



Indranil its not scale down slightly.
Its entire redesign.

Every parameter is being changed.
from flight characteristics the length and weight changes will need a lot of re-testing as CP and CG will change.
Control laws have to be re-written.

And reduction in diameter will require re-packaging the insides.

So another big mess up?
Who was not in the loop?
DRDO or the Services?
Or is this because the engine is not performing?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Zynda » 30 May 2019 20:44

^^It is intentional...the changes mentioned are being carried out not because there is anything wrong with Nirbhay (AFAIK)...can't say anything more than this here.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ArjunPandit » 30 May 2019 20:48

^^can't we put the existing design in production and then make the changes in subsequent blocks?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Indranil » 30 May 2019 20:49

Good call Zynda.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Arun.prabhu » 30 May 2019 21:14

Not that hard to guess, but I'll keep mum.

Zynda wrote:^^It is intentional...the changes mentioned are being carried out not because there is anything wrong with Nirbhay (AFAIK)...can't say anything more than this here.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ArjunPandit » 30 May 2019 21:19

Arun.prabhu wrote:Not that hard to guess, but I'll keep mum.

Zynda wrote:^^It is intentional...the changes mentioned are being carried out not because there is anything wrong with Nirbhay (AFAIK)...can't say anything more than this here.

I guessed it but I would stay mum.. :evil: :evil:,

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Arun.prabhu » 30 May 2019 21:22

I have come to think of it as the armed forces kicking the can down the line. We see it with every product that is developed indigenously.

ArjunPandit wrote:^^can't we put the existing design in production and then make the changes in subsequent blocks?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby JayS » 30 May 2019 22:33

ramana wrote:
Indranil wrote:Nirbhay is being scaled down slightly:
Diamter: 505 mm
Length: 5600 mm
Weight: 810-975 kg


from

Indranil wrote:Diameter: 520 mm
Length: 6036 mm
Weight: >1100 kgs



Indranil its not scale down slightly.
Its entire redesign.

Every parameter is being changed.
from flight characteristics the length and weight changes will need a lot of re-testing as CP and CG will change.
Control laws have to be re-written.

And reduction in diameter will require re-packaging the insides.

So another big mess up
Who was not in the loop?
DRDO or the Services?
Or is this because the engine is not performing?


Lets not worry about this. There can be many valid reasons for such change. The previous config is years old and was probably not the most optimized, being the first iteration. After so many years and flight test data, they must be having refined design process now which could have resulted in better optimized design. And perhaps ADE now has got SQRs which demanded the changes. Until now it was just a TD with meager funds. Any one of them or all of them or some more reasons.


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