Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

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Kartik
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Kartik » 30 Sep 2019 09:31

Could the 200 order size have anything to do with the emergency provision provided to the Service chiefs? That is up to $72 million per order AFAIR. Or was it increased?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Pratyush » 30 Sep 2019 10:34

Kartik wrote:Could the 200 order size have anything to do with the emergency provision provided to the Service chiefs? That is up to $72 million per order AFAIR. Or was it increased?



IMO, this is just a first lot like it was done for Akash. Getting the line established and supply chain humming.

Again IMO, IAF needs this missile by the thousands.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Aditya_V » 30 Sep 2019 13:19

Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) successfully test fires land attack version of BrahMos supersonic cruise missile off the coast of Odisha.

https://twitter.com/ANI/status/1178536382681104384

This test is by DRDO- new variant- extended range?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Raghunathgb » 30 Sep 2019 15:20

@DRDO_India successfully conducted test fire of BrahMos supersonic cruise missile featuring Indian propulsion system, airframe, power supply and other major indigenous components from ITR, Chandipur in Odisha, today.
https://twitter.com/SpokespersonMoD/sta ... 85312?s=19

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Aditya_V » 30 Sep 2019 15:31

Does that mean most imported compenents such as Russian engine are now manufactured in India. Hope that means that the Brahmos can be really mass produced.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby John » 30 Sep 2019 17:17

Aditya_V wrote:Does that mean most imported compenents such as Russian engine are now manufactured in India. Hope that means that the Brahmos can be really mass produced.

Brahmos is already mass manufactured it is way of reducing cost especially as these missiles are overhauled.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Aditya_V » 30 Sep 2019 17:46

Brahmos has been in production for 12 -13 years, Navy has about 70 missiles, IA around 4 Regiments and Airforce its question mark. I dont think our inventory will be more than 1000 missiles. But to have a no contest war apart from a lot of other things I we would need a combination of BM/CM's , to disable PAF airfields/PA Missile Launchers/ Radars/ Karachi port etc, before fighters can move in large loads of GPS bombs. We would require such weapons in 1000's.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby John » 30 Sep 2019 18:02

Brahmos costs bit too much to be produced in large nos, Brahmos-m which Is cheaper could be different story but there has been very little news about it.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby jaysimha » 30 Sep 2019 19:46

BRAHMOS Supersonic Cruise Missile, with major indigenous systems, successfully test-fired on 30 Sept 2019.

Image

Prem Kumar
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Prem Kumar » 30 Sep 2019 20:08

IIRC, we had already indigenized the seeker, guidance and booster. It was mainly the ramjet engine that was imported & probably the highest cost component. If we have indigenized that too, we can not only bring down the cost, but have also demonstrated mastery of the technology. Simply brilliant!

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby darshhan » 30 Sep 2019 20:35

Indranil wrote:You guys read Rajat Pandit's articles? A development time of 15 years for a modern BVRAAM is very respectable to any decent observer of weapon systems.

What is torturous is the last fifteen years of Rajat Pandit's writings. I challenge you to bring out a good article from him in the last 15 years!


Come on. Don't be so hard on him. After all he has to justify his monthly kharcha that he is getting from his import pimp sponsors. Bechaare ka ration paani band karwaoge kya.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby darshhan » 30 Sep 2019 20:39

Prem Kumar wrote:IIRC, we had already indigenized the seeker, guidance and booster. It was mainly the ramjet engine that was imported & probably the highest cost component. If we have indigenized that too, we can not only bring down the cost, but have also demonstrated mastery of the technology. Simply brilliant!


Actually Dr Sudhir Mishra had alluded to this quite a while back in one of the interviews. The interviewer asked whether Indians could go alone with Brahmos without Russian help. Dr. Mishra replied in affirmative while reminding the interviewer that Brahmos corp is still a JV.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby srin » 30 Sep 2019 21:14

This is HUGE. I'm thinking where else this can be used.

Also, is this the LFRJ (Liquid fuel ramjet) project that I'd heard of for a long time ?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby SaiK » 30 Sep 2019 21:52

Interesting, did we deal with Russkies to get a waiver to replace with indigenous propulsion?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby John » 30 Sep 2019 22:43

SaiK wrote:Interesting, did we deal with Russkies to get a waiver to replace with indigenous propulsion?

Yes as they have to sign off for any project or deals for Brahmos Corp. If I where to guess they have moved to focus on hyper velocity missiles and still stand to make $$$ from Brahmos sales.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby sudeepj » 01 Oct 2019 00:43

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 896253.cms

BRAHMOS Missile System, which was successfully test-fired recently, is integrated with L&T manufactured Composite Airframes and two different versions of Transport Launch Canister (TLC). L&T Defence has successfully completed the realisation of the Composite Airframes for the BRAHMOS Missile.

...

Our journey started under the guidance of DRDO to develop indigenous capabilities and facilities for realization of composite airframes, canisters and allied sub-systems for BRAHMOS Missile.


So the airframe is composite, the rocket booster is also indigenized

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cit ... 774751.cms

The premier Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) unit High Energy Materials Research Laboratory (HEMRL) in Pune has developed a solid propellant booster of the BrahMos supersonic cruise missile


The seeker and guidance algorithms were Indian to begin with. Now the report that the Ramjet has also been indigenized.

I guess this means we should be ready to see a 1000km Brahmos 'prompt strike' capability at some point in future. Simplistically, Increase the size of the booster, fuel tanks and see a proportional increase in the range.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby sudeepj » 01 Oct 2019 00:51

John wrote:Brahmos costs bit too much to be produced in large nos, Brahmos-m which Is cheaper could be different story but there has been very little news about it.


When you have one AAM costing about a million dollars, a three million dollar missile that with a 600km range may actually be cost effective for the initial stages of the conflict.

E.g. A fighter plane costs about 100 million dollars. Costs about (say: $15,000 per hour, 200 hours per year) $3 million per year to operate in peace time. Will last (say) about 50 combat missions before being rendered inoperative in war time, delivers one Brahmos equivalent ground strikes per mission.

Total life time cost over 25 years = ( $100 million + 25 x $3 million ) = $175 million to deliver 50 Brahmos equivalent strikes.

Cost for 50 Brahmos missiles over 25 years may be a comparable number.

So at least for initial phases of a war when air space may be contested, Brahmos may be a better solution than JDAM type weapons from fighter planes. In later stages, fighter planes may be better.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Rakesh » 01 Oct 2019 03:22

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1178657339445919744 ---> A photo here from today's BrahMos test site. The missile system continued testing with an expanded slew of Indian systems that now make the BrahMos over 65% Indian. Details ---> https://bit.ly/2GlMYu6

Image

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Prem Kumar » 01 Oct 2019 10:33

Ok - per Shiv Aroor, by "propulsion", they meant booster. I wish the press releases were less ambiguous!

Ramjet is still Russian. But given that Russia is reneging on their word by not inducting Brahmos in their own Armed Forces, we should go ahead and indigenize the engine as well. No point in us being the only ones honoring contracts. A little bit of the Chinese treatment will make the Rooskies see sense.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby darshhan » 01 Oct 2019 14:01

sudeepj wrote:
John wrote:Brahmos costs bit too much to be produced in large nos, Brahmos-m which Is cheaper could be different story but there has been very little news about it.


When you have one AAM costing about a million dollars, a three million dollar missile that with a 600km range may actually be cost effective for the initial stages of the conflict.

E.g. A fighter plane costs about 100 million dollars. Costs about (say: $15,000 per hour, 200 hours per year) $3 million per year to operate in peace time. Will last (say) about 50 combat missions before being rendered inoperative in war time, delivers one Brahmos equivalent ground strikes per mission.

Total life time cost over 25 years = ( $100 million + 25 x $3 million ) = $175 million to deliver 50 Brahmos equivalent strikes.

Cost for 50 Brahmos missiles over 25 years may be a comparable number.

So at least for initial phases of a war when air space may be contested, Brahmos may be a better solution than JDAM type weapons from fighter planes. In later stages, fighter planes may be better.


Such MBA style thinking almost never works in actual warfare.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Austin » 01 Oct 2019 14:18

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7101&p=2384702#p2384702

https://www.theweek.in/news/sci-tech/20 ... range.html

At 800 km range this should effectively cover all our western neighbor even if the system is deployed 200 km deep inside India.
The range would put any CBG at 600 km at serious risk , Long range Lo-Lo trajectory is now also possible at M 1.5

Flight time for the same speed to cover the full range would be around 8-9 minutes

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Arun.prabhu » 01 Oct 2019 18:26

Granted, operational theory isn’t perfect but the reasoning is sound. What if your counter argument apart from MBA thinking doesn’t work?

darshhan wrote:
sudeepj wrote:
When you have one AAM costing about a million dollars, a three million dollar missile that with a 600km range may actually be cost effective for the initial stages of the conflict.

E.g. A fighter plane costs about 100 million dollars. Costs about (say: $15,000 per hour, 200 hours per year) $3 million per year to operate in peace time. Will last (say) about 50 combat missions before being rendered inoperative in war time, delivers one Brahmos equivalent ground strikes per mission.

Total life time cost over 25 years = ( $100 million + 25 x $3 million ) = $175 million to deliver 50 Brahmos equivalent strikes.

Cost for 50 Brahmos missiles over 25 years may be a comparable number.

So at least for initial phases of a war when air space may be contested, Brahmos may be a better solution than JDAM type weapons from fighter planes. In later stages, fighter planes may be better.


Such MBA style thinking almost never works in actual warfare.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby srai » 01 Oct 2019 18:50

^^^
For high-value heavily defended target, Brahmos is the way. Lots of targets in this category. Virtually impossible to defend against when a Su-30MKI launches it from well inside Indian airspace. At 300/450/600/800km max ranges, provides a lot of flexibility and survivability. A 3-million per unit is not much for the capability it provides.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby John » 01 Oct 2019 19:41

He left out other costs of missile, Missiles are not maintenance free granted canisterization does reduce cost ( does not apply to air launched Brahmos) but missile does need to be ovehauled (i.e fuel needs to be replaced) ( I believe they manage to extend that from the 5 years originally advertised). Plus the cost of TEL and other support vehicles and also cost for dummy rounds.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Iyersan » 01 Oct 2019 20:40

https://twitter.com/zeerajasthan_/statu ... 57792?s=19

Major test at Pokhran. Dont know the detaild

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ArjunPandit » 01 Oct 2019 21:15

^^could be hypersonic ..other than that is a very long shot..

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Sonugn » 01 Oct 2019 21:17

Garuthmaa tests?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby dinesh_kimar » 01 Oct 2019 21:24

Wow, Zee Rajasthan reporting 5 "explosions" that rocked the town, earth shaking, shutters and doors slammed, etc.

Rajnath visited on 16th Sept, and army exercises going on right now........High activity, with many visitors, comings and goings, IAF planes,etc.

Hope they tested.......

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ArjunPandit » 01 Oct 2019 21:32

dont think zee is credible...there may be some kite flying..

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Sonugn » 01 Oct 2019 21:34

Some other reports of planned explosions viz expired ammo.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ArjunPandit » 01 Oct 2019 21:41

checked USGS and european sites for any earthquakes nothing in last 1 hr
https://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/map/
https://www.emsc-csem.org/Earthquake/Ma ... typ=ASIA#3

rules out something done underground...kite flying..may be dipstick test..to see the reaction..

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Iyersan » 01 Oct 2019 21:48

Can expired ammo destruction cause the kind of shakes in the neighborhood

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ArjunPandit » 01 Oct 2019 21:49

depends how much and how close to civilian infrastructure it is being done..could be some thermobaric bomb ..would have high atmospheric effects..ruling out MOAB/FOAB type because that too would have caused small quake...

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby kit » 01 Oct 2019 21:54

John wrote:
SaiK wrote:Interesting, did we deal with Russkies to get a waiver to replace with indigenous propulsion?

Yes as they have to sign off for any project or deals for Brahmos Corp. If I where to guess they have moved to focus on hyper velocity missiles and still stand to make $$$ from Brahmos sales.


They increased the range of Brahmos ancient predecessor the P-800 Oniks to nearly 800 km , so they intend to keep their version .

https://southfront.org/russia-reveals-information-on-new-onyx-m-anti-ship-cruise-missile-with-range-of-800-km/

Similarly to the original Onyx cruise missile, the Onyx-M will be capable of carrying conventional and nuclear warheads. The maximum speed of the Onyx-M and mass-dimensional characteristics remained the same as in the basic version of the rocket.

The information provided by TASS’ sources was not confirmed by the missile manufacturer – NPO Mashinostroyeniya (part of the Tactical Missile Arms Corporation, KTRV).

Earlier, on September 13th, a spokesperson for the company told TASS that there were plans to improve the Onyx anti-ship missile.

“Yes, we proposed to improve the flight performance of Onyx missiles to increase the effectiveness of this anti-ship complex,” the spokesperson said.

Russian-Indian BraMos rocket was produced on the basis of the Onyx cruise missile. At MAKS-2019, the head of the BraMos joint venture on the Indian side, Kumar Mishra, told TASS that the firing range of the BraMos cruise missile could be increased to 800 km. He then noted that such a technical opportunity existed. The missile was recently tested successfully.

On September 26th, 2018, it was reported that the Russian Navy test-fired a supersonic Onyx anti-ship cruise missile for the first time.

The withdrawal from the intermediate range cruise missile control treaty has facilitated such a development. It goes without saying that the Brahmos actual range is similar without any change in the speed.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby dinesh_kimar » 01 Oct 2019 21:56

deleted
Last edited by dinesh_kimar on 01 Oct 2019 21:57, edited 1 time in total.

kit
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby kit » 01 Oct 2019 21:56

dinesh_kimar wrote:Wow, Zee Rajasthan reporting 5 "explosions" that rocked the town, earth shaking, shutters and doors slammed, etc.

Rajnath visited on 16th Sept, and army exercises going on right now........High activity, with many visitors, comings and goings, IAF planes,etc.

Hope they tested.......



the last set of nuclear tests coincided with a major exercise :twisted: , is the Buddha smiling again ?!!

Tactical nuclear warheads ? looks like sub kiloton explosions. Maybe warhead tests for Brahmos/Nirbhay ??
Last edited by kit on 01 Oct 2019 22:13, edited 1 time in total.

ArjunPandit
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ArjunPandit » 01 Oct 2019 22:01

^^seems unlikely esp when kazhaks are trying for India's NSG entry. It would not be good from an optics perspective..but then would be better from a perspective "who cares" and esp a good show to china day ...Sniper on twitter had a statement eons back..that Modi wants to be ahead of JLN in every matter...and this is one legacy that will make him immortal like IG and ABV..but i think time hasnt come to bare that fang..

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Iyersan » 01 Oct 2019 22:13


kit
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby kit » 01 Oct 2019 22:15

*deleted
Last edited by kit on 02 Oct 2019 02:43, edited 1 time in total.

kit
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby kit » 01 Oct 2019 22:16

Iyersan wrote:https://twitter.com/DrGPradhan/status/1179068792200019973?s=19

Even Dr Gaurav Pradhan says so


link disappeared ?


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