Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

nam · Post by **nam** » 20 Dec 2019 21:30

chetonzz wrote:the ITR tests are jumped up many many times from last few months...what exactly does that indicate? intimidation tactics or "something huge"?

It just indicates, the monsoon season is over. Now we can test our missiles, without getting wet..

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 20 Dec 2019 21:35

Not sure where ANI got the range extension from when GoI press release and DRDO Tech Focus says 75 km

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 20 Dec 2019 21:43

chetonzz wrote:the ITR tests are jumped up many many times from last few months...what exactly does that indicate? intimidation tactics or "something huge"?

In my mind, I will always put many tests together and keep them moving/cancelling - The enemy keeps guessing, cannot get correct int, has to keep on moving resources and gets us a chance to slip some testing that we do not want anyone to know. A 3000 KM NOTAM for Agni also means that 1000 km Nirbhay be tested without any extra announcement.

sivab · Post by **sivab** » 21 Dec 2019 00:32

tsarkar wrote:Not sure where ANI got the range extension from when GoI press release and DRDO Tech Focus says 75 km

From horses mouth aka DG Artillery who led this project. Read the article for more info. Note the dates.

https://palepurshankar.blogspot.com/201 ... gen-p.html

It was realized that ranges up to 100 km could be achieved by manipulating the control and guidance. That was stunning. However, we remained conservative and targeted a range of 75 km. Once that was achieved, we could extend to more.
...
Operationally, India has a deadly guided rocket with a range in excess of 75 km(now) which will get extended to 100 km in a little while. Not a case of ‘If’ but ‘When’.

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 21 Dec 2019 04:26

Pinaka Missile System clears another trial.

This was the second test carried out by DRDO in two days from Integrated Test Range, Chandipur, off the Odisha coast. In the test conducted on Thursday, the Pinaka missile was fired at 75-kilometre range.

In the test conducted on Thursday, the Pinaka missile was fired at 75-kilometre range.

As part of the series of flight trials of Pinaka missile system, the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) conducted the trial aimed at testing low range, functioning of live warhead along with its proximity initiation and salvo launch.

This was the second test carried out by DRDO in two days from Integrated Test Range, Chandipur, off the Odisha coast. In the test conducted on Thursday, the Pinaka missile was fired at 75-kilometre range.

According to the Ministry of Defence, in Friday’s test two Pinaka missiles, was launched in salvo mode and with 60 seconds interval between two firings. The missiles were fired to engage a target located at the 20-kilometre range and high accuracy was achieved.

As has been reported earlier, the indigenous missile was integrated with a live warhead with a proximity fuse and was tracked by multiple range systems viz. telemetry, radars, Electro-Optical Tracking System (EOTS), which confirmed the textbook flight performance.

The DRDO and its other laboratories have been working on extending the range of the indigenous missile system which was fitted with a guidance system in 2013 in an attempt to improve its accuracy. The Made in India system is using a new guided rocket with an Israeli designed Trajectory Control System (TCS) which were tested in 2013 with a range of 65km at that time. Though the DRDO’s aim is to reach 120 km, so far after several trials have now been increased to 90 km.

In 2006, in an effort to encourage the participation of the private sector’s participation in the defence sector, for equipping two regiments, the Indian Army had awarded Tata Power SED and Larsen & Toubro’s Heavy Engineering Division, had placed an order for 40 Pinaka Multi Barrel Rocket Launchers (MBRL).

After successfully inducting these, the Indian Army placed additional orders for four more regiments in two batches in 2015. This was followed by an additional order for six regiments which was cleared by the Defence Acquisition Council in November 2016, taking the total to up to 10 regiments to be in service by 2022.

There are talks of having a dozen more regiments of these indigenous missiles.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 21 Dec 2019 06:05

Fantastic progress with Pinaka! Just for thf record, we also use SMERCH.How complemrntary are they or will we now stop SMERCH purchases and acquire more Pinaka. Pros and cons.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 21 Dec 2019 06:58

Smerch purchases were stopped as the Russians dragged their feet on fixing extant problems with the system and providing TOT for ammo and spares. Later, an agreement was struck for ammo. The Pinaka guided renders the need for Smerch obsolete provided it is equally cost-effective and can deliver the same effect - firepower, mobility.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 21 Dec 2019 08:07

Need to now make the guided pinaka so cheap that it becomes the default.

srin · Post by **srin** » 21 Dec 2019 09:04

How does the addition of guidance package increase the range ? From the specs posted a few days ago in the Artillery thread, guided pinaka has same length (5175mm) and weight (325kg) and heavier payload (+15kg for the GNC kit), meaning less propellant than the standard Mk2. So, how can it double the range - 60km to desired 120km ?

My mango-abdul understanding of standard MBRL is: load up solid fuel rockets, look at the firing tables for the target location, aim the launcher at the right elevation and azimuth so it can hit the target and fire.

So - was it always theoretically possible to reach the range (say at 45 degree elevation firing) with the standard rocket, but wasn't practical due to dispersion (since there is no guidance kit) and hence it was always restricted to shorter ranges ?

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 21 Dec 2019 10:25

I guess with controllable fins etc. The rocket can manoeuvre itself to longer ranges and hit the specific target

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 21 Dec 2019 11:06

maybe a new solid fuel ??

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 21 Dec 2019 11:09

tsarkar wrote:Not sure where ANI got the range extension from when GoI press release and DRDO Tech Focus says 75 km

Have we compare the GMLRS & GMLRS-ER , it is easier to understand the way Pinaka is progressing.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 21 Dec 2019 11:15

srin wrote:How does the addition of guidance package increase the range ? From the specs posted a few days ago in the Artillery thread, guided pinaka has same length (5175mm) and weight (325kg) and heavier payload (+15kg for the GNC kit), meaning less propellant than the standard Mk2. So, how can it double the range - 60km to desired 120km ?

To my knowledge, 60 km is Mk1 & 75 km is Mk2 which we call it as guided Pinaka

Same goes for Pinaka 1. What we call as Extended range Pinaka1 is infact Pinaka1 Mk2.

Hope it clears the doubt..

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 21 Dec 2019 11:28

Aditya_V wrote:I guess with controllable fins etc. The rocket can manoeuvre itself to longer ranges and hit the specific target

It is said that GMLRS-ER uses such mechanism to extend the range.
Though it doesn't have nose mounted fins it uses GPS assisted active fight path correction & adjustment. It is believed, though this, GMLRS-ER could extend the range further.

From this angle, mentioning of IRNSS looks interesting.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 21 Dec 2019 13:25

GMLRS seems to have a 100 Kg warhead. Pinaka has a 250 Kg warhead

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 21 Dec 2019 13:40

srin wrote:How does the addition of guidance package increase the range ? From the specs posted a few days ago in the Artillery thread, guided pinaka has same length (5175mm) and weight (325kg) and heavier payload (+15kg for the GNC kit), meaning less propellant than the standard Mk2. So, how can it double the range - 60km to desired 120km ?

Guided round is sent higher than usual parabolic trajectory of normal rocket where low air drag and control surfaces help it glide further.

srai · Post by **srai** » 21 Dec 2019 14:20

^^^
Plus, at longer ranges unguided rockets lose accuracy.

...

The Pinaka is a multi-barreled rocket launcher capable of firing twelve 210 mm rockets in 44 seconds at a range of 38 km. In 2015, an Extended Range Unguided Pinaka Rocket was fired to a range of 55km using case bonded propellants. The rockets fell more than 500 m away from the intended target. Not good at all. It seemed like another failure. However, the Rocket was steady and impressive. ARDE had done a good developmental job. It was clear that that a guidance mechanism was mandatory to increase accuracy. We had to succeed.

...

Tech Focus had this for accuracy of unguided rockets:
≤ 1.5% range (PE)

nam · Post by **nam** » 21 Dec 2019 14:35

Using Navic would be a good solution to increase accuracy cheaply.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 21 Dec 2019 14:38

Kanson wrote:
srin wrote:How does the addition of guidance package increase the range ? From the specs posted a few days ago in the Artillery thread, guided pinaka has same length (5175mm) and weight (325kg) and heavier payload (+15kg for the GNC kit), meaning less propellant than the standard Mk2. So, how can it double the range - 60km to desired 120km ?

To my knowledge, 60 km is Mk1 & 75 km is Mk2 which we call it as guided Pinaka

Same goes for Pinaka 1. What we call as Extended range Pinaka1 is infact Pinaka1 Mk2.

Hope it clears the doubt..

The Pinaka Mk2 is not the same as Pinaka Guided. The latter uses tech from the former. Yes, the Pinaka Mk2 was what is referred to as ER Pinaka in the above excerpt, but today, the term is now being used for a new Mk1A round using Mk2 tech (like the guided Pinaka did).

Mk1, ER Mk1 ie Mk1A, Mk2, Guided Pinaka, 122mm ER.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 21 Dec 2019 15:06

Tech Focus had this for accuracy of unguided rockets:
≤ 1.5% range (PE)

Meaning accuracy aided by tech determines range beyond unguided accuracy?

Which is also why silver bullet tech range has inherent limitations ie tech. Putting all eggs in one basket is fine as long as unguided are also in sufficient numbers and practiced.

srai · Post by **srai** » 21 Dec 2019 20:10

^^^
Unguided ones are fine for shorter ranges < 40-50km. At 55km, 1.5% accuracy distance comes out to be quite a lot. These are area weapon so it is deemed acceptable up to certain distance and margins.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 21 Dec 2019 22:03

Srin, All things being equal guidance reduces range as energy is used for corrections. However effectiveness improves due to accuracy.
You are right that some other improvements are being incorporated at same time.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 21 Dec 2019 22:07

MBRLs are area weapons. They need modest guidance to deliver the end effect be reducing CEP.

However Guided Pinaka with it's high accuracy is a different weapon all together. It gives the Artllery commander capability to deliver 100 kg explosive within the CEP. Basically don't need hazardous CAS from air force.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 21 Dec 2019 22:17

Prem Kumar wrote:GMLRS seems to have a 100 Kg warhead. Pinaka has a 250 Kg warhead

Not really Pinaka also has ~100kg warhead, Mk-2's all up weight is ~330kg.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 22 Dec 2019 06:18

Have we used them in the latest extermination exercise?

Haridas · Post by **Haridas** » 22 Dec 2019 09:17

ramana wrote:MBRLs are are weapons. They need modest guidance to deliver the end effect be reducing CEP.

However Guided Pinaka with it's high accuracy is a different weapon all together. It gives the Artllery commander capability to deliver 100 kg explosive within the CEP. Basically don't need hazardous CAS from air force.

Guidence control also allows additional capability to fly non ballistic trajectory using body lift.

IMHO that is how the 60 km ballistic munition extends to 100 km

I posted to this few days ago in previous pages

srin · Post by **srin** » 22 Dec 2019 09:55

^^^ That is really interesting. If they can have say folded fins and SFDR (or even dual-thrust) propulsion, then it becomes a potent cold start surface-surface "cruise" missile.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 22 Dec 2019 12:10

How feasible would it be to incorporate cbu-105 type skeets into the Pinaka to give you a long ranged anti-tank weapon?

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 22 Dec 2019 13:13

Haridas wrote: Guidence control also allows additional capability to fly non ballistic trajectory using body lift.

IMHO that is how the 60 km ballistic munition extends to 100 km

Great point! This is where guidance + control-surfaces play together. For a non-ballistic glide path, guidance becomes essential for accuracy. The control surfaces play the dual role of generating lift + trajectory correction.

srai · Post by **srai** » 22 Dec 2019 13:31

Prasad wrote:How feasible would it be to incorporate cbu-105 type skeets into the Pinaka to give you a long ranged anti-tank weapon?

Refer to page 11-12.

https://www.drdo.gov.in/sites/default/f ... 19_Web.pdf
DRDO Technology focus
VOL 27 ISSUE 6 December 2019
ISSN No. 0971-4413
ARTILLERY ROCKET SYSTEMS

ATM/STM Warheads

These sub-munition warheads are used to stop the advancement of approaching column of enemy personnel (STM) or armoured vehicles (ATM). ATM warhead houses 18 Nos of anti-tank sub munitions, whereas STM warhead houses nearly 48 Nos of sub munitions. These munitions are axi-symmetrically packed and dispensed over the target area by cutting the casing into three petals using FLSC. Each ATM is attached with a parachute and gets stabilized. On landing, these parachutes gets detached with the help of a parachute release mechanism. Functioning of a pyro-cutter makes the sub-munitions in up-right position. ATM sense the tank, by change in magnetic field. If no target detected with in set period, munition blows off with SD. In case of STM, it gets activated by pressure. Similar to ATM, after the set period, SD/SDA will ensure the clearing of minefield.

srin · Post by **srin** » 22 Dec 2019 15:05

srai wrote:
Prasad wrote:How feasible would it be to incorporate cbu-105 type skeets into the Pinaka to give you a long ranged anti-tank weapon?
Refer to page 11-12.

https://www.drdo.gov.in/sites/default/f ... 19_Web.pdf
DRDO Technology focus
VOL 27 ISSUE 6 December 2019
ISSN No. 0971-4413
ARTILLERY ROCKET SYSTEMS

ATM/STM Warheads

These sub-munition warheads are used to stop the advancement of approaching column of enemy personnel (STM) or armoured vehicles (ATM). ATM warhead houses 18 Nos of anti-tank sub munitions, whereas STM warhead houses nearly 48 Nos of sub munitions. These munitions are axi-symmetrically packed and dispensed over the target area by cutting the casing into three petals using FLSC. Each ATM is attached with a parachute and gets stabilized. On landing, these parachutes gets detached with the help of a parachute release mechanism. Functioning of a pyro-cutter makes the sub-munitions in up-right position. ATM sense the tank, by change in magnetic field. If no target detected with in set period, munition blows off with SD. In case of STM, it gets activated by pressure. Similar to ATM, after the set period, SD/SDA will ensure the clearing of minefield.

My understanding of the ATM is that it disperses AT mines in the area. The CBU-105 senses the tanks from the air and then fires EFP into the top of the turret.

srai · Post by **srai** » 22 Dec 2019 16:12

^^^
Yes. But the mechanism of packaging and dispersal is similar.

There are six new munitions under R&D by DRDO. Some of these may end up becoming a warhead option on Pinaka.

Soft Target Blast Munition ('NIPUN')
Anti-Tank Point Attack Munition ('VIBHAV')
Anti-Tank Bar Munition ('VISHAL')
Directional Fragmentation Munition ('PARTH')
Anti-Tank Munition (‘PRACHAND’)
Jumping Fragmentation Munition ('ULKA')

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 22 Dec 2019 20:36

The CBU-105/Bonus type solutions are based on technologies from 2-3 decades ago, a clean sheet design today will probably involve drone swarms that can persist over the target area with higher pk than the skeets that are demi dumb.

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 22 Dec 2019 20:51

Raghunathgb · Post by **Raghunathgb** » 23 Dec 2019 16:29

The @DRDO_India developed #QRSAM successfully engaged the aerial target establishing its capability. With this, developmental trials of the QRSAM weapon system are completed and weapon system is expected to be ready for induction by 2021.

https://twitter.com/delhidefence/status ... 27808?s=19

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 23 Dec 2019 18:34

Raghunathgb wrote:The @DRDO_India developed #QRSAM successfully engaged the aerial target establishing its capability. With this, developmental trials of the QRSAM weapon system are completed and weapon system is expected to be ready for induction by 2021.

That was quick. A big round of applause for DRDO, BEL and BDL.

Raghunathgb · Post by **Raghunathgb** » 23 Dec 2019 19:50

Thakur_B wrote:
Raghunathgb wrote:The @DRDO_India developed #QRSAM successfully engaged the aerial target establishing its capability. With this, developmental trials of the QRSAM weapon system are completed and weapon system is expected to be ready for induction by 2021.

That was quick. A big round of applause for DRDO, BEL and BDL.

With ATAGS, QRSAM ,Pinaka and MPATGM hopefully Indian army confidence in DRDO grow multifold.

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 23 Dec 2019 19:53

copying some wiki information for QR SAM testing

Overview

This missile is an all-weather, all-terrain surface-to-air missile equipped with electronic counter measures against jamming by aircraft radars. The missile can be mounted on a truck and is stored in a canister. QRSAM uses solid-fuel propellant and has a range of 25-30 km
Around 100 scientists are working as part of the missile development program led by Developed by Defence Research and Development Laboratory (DRDL). DRDO’s other labs including RCI, R&D Engineers and ITR are also contributing to the missile development effort.

Testing

1. The first test firing of the missile took place on 4 June 2017.
2. This was followed by the second successful test on 3 July 2017.[8] The test was conducted from Chandipur, Odisha.
3. On 22 December, the missile was test fired for the third time. While the test was initially reported to be a success, The Print reported that the test failed with the missile being unresponsive after it took off
4. The fourth test took place on 8 October 2018 and was reported to be successful
5. Fifth test was successfully performed on 26 February 2019
6. The sixth test was conducted on 4 August 2019 at 11:05 am from a mobile truck-based launcher at the launch complex-3 of the Integrated Test Range (ITR) at Chandipur
7. The seventh-test took place on 23 December 2019 from launch pad-3 of Integrated Test Range (ITR).

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 23 Dec 2019 19:56

Raghunathgb wrote:With ATAGS, QRSAM ,Pinaka and MPATGM hopefully Indian army confidence in DRDO grow multifold.

Gen rawat has said a couple of times next war would be fought/won with desi weapons...i wish it also included arjun tanks..we are quite well placed on artillery, missiles (tactical), planes(on right course), navy had always been the good boy ..
I think the hardest nut to crack is DGMF...for armoured vehicles including tanks..lets hope they know what they are doing and that is the best ...

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 24 Dec 2019 06:48

QRSAM pic from RT.com