Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Manish_Sharma » 26 Jul 2020 00:33

basant wrote:^^^
The above view shows the army as simple minded and innocent people who cannot think out of box for years. Let's not be so naive as they are smart and sensible when it comes to imported stuff.


About the writer of these tweets @rathorekaran17 :
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7685&start=480#p2449007
ramana wrote:He is a retired Armored Corps Brigadier and commanded Poona Horse.
Trained by Lt Gen Hanut Singh.
Very level headed. No flamboyance.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby basant » 26 Jul 2020 01:44

^^^
I have immense respect for Hanut Singh ji and have no complaints against the author. My views are based on facts repeated ad nauseam in the forum.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 26 Jul 2020 03:24

We have to understand that due to both design issues (T-90 autoloader length caps) and development hiatus (DRDO FSAPDS program was literally stopped as there were no takers for Arjun or 125mm rounds), the inducted FSAPDS rounds are not capable of knocking out heavily armored tanks at substantial ranges (2km and above). Hence the focus on missiles.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ramana » 26 Jul 2020 12:38

Has any one seen how many trials the French did tomqualify the HAAMMER series of guided bombs per wiki article?
Three. And DRDO has to do development trials, user trials, user exploitation trials etc till war is upon and then services go buy imports citing no mfg capability.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby basant » 26 Jul 2020 14:35

(CAUTION: *100% whine*)

^^^
Also trials in summer, winter, day, night, desert, mountains, plains, etc. Always wondered why no monsoon trails! May be its inconvenient to conduct.

All these might still be tolerated if the imported weapon systems go through identical grill! Apparently, our enemies respect brand of the weapons and volunteer to be defeated. What's heartbreaking is that despite all these, indigenous systems that pass these tests are not procured! Not in missiles (SSM), MBTs, fighters. AWACS? Strangely we stopped talking about them altogether!

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby darshan » 26 Jul 2020 15:29

There's a lobby that's working to get AWACS for awhile from a western country for almost 10 years now.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby MeshaVishwas » 26 Jul 2020 15:54

darshan wrote:There's a lobby that's working to get AWACS for awhile from a western country for almost 10 years now.

NauSena (Unofficially?) expressed interest in a V-22 based AEW system a while back (or is it the 737-Dud tail rumour? )

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby darshan » 26 Jul 2020 16:30

Vagueness was intentional.

At best one can hope to get more ISTARs or something based off of P-8I on short notice. Though I doubt that there's any platform out there that can come be of an immediate use and is familiar enough to be ran by an Indian crew. Can India even replace netras on the spot if one went down?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Anujan » 27 Jul 2020 01:57

The Nag saga is frustrating.

First there was a requirement that it should be able to lock on, in extreme ranges, in rajasthan heat. (why not use main gun or wire guided missiles like konkurs in this scenario?). Then there was a requirement that helina should be capable of top attack at 400m

Then these have a "fix" in the form of imported seeker. Now the complaint is that these missiles are too costly.

10x Namicas and 10x LCH armed with helina would have shut up the threat of light tanks in Depsang.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Prem Kumar » 27 Jul 2020 11:45

There is something definitely rotten in the acquisition/procurement departments of some branches of the army, especially armor & artillery (though in the latter case, things seem to have improved a bit). Too many vested interests who don't give a damn about war-preparedness. The rotten apples have to be shunted out & the ball eventually lies in the court of the COAS.

"We will fight with what we have" rah-rah notwithstanding, the COAS must take accountability for fighting and winning a 2-front war. We seem happy to do COIN operations, an occasional Balakot and leave China to the diplomats.

Its the humble jawan & the officers who repeatedly save the day, while there is incompetence all around: military intelligence (caught napping again), weapons acquisition and strategy

A thorough house cleaning is in order. However, I don't see it happening under Modi sarkar. He is a tinkerer, not a teardown-and-rebuild kind of person.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ParGha » 27 Jul 2020 22:18

Anujan wrote:The Nag saga is frustrating. First there was a requirement that it should be able to lock on, in extreme ranges, in Rajasthan heat. (why not use main gun or wire guided missiles like konkurs in this scenario?).


The NAMICAs are meant for GUARDS and MECH INF R&S (Tracked) battalions. They can "see" long distances because they have BFSRs. Once they spot the enemy armor, their job is to track the enemy and steer them towards own armor/ambush positions. To do that, they need to be able to shoot-and-scoot from a long distance. They don't have main guns and their Konkurs are for SHTF self-defense. The user-feedback on the BFSRs isn't too good either; I have heard its screen is too noisy and nauseating to the operator. At this rate, they may have to convert the R&S battalions into World War 2-style Long Range Desert Groups for passive "Road Watch Parties", small-scale raiding and special-forces support.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby nam » 27 Jul 2020 22:25

In the other thread, just read about the saga of SDR by HAL. Now this story of BEL. Sigh.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby abhik » 27 Jul 2020 23:50

^^^
Are those BEL BFSRs or Israeli ones we are talking about?
Added: AFAIK the ones that are mounted on Tatra trucks are actually ELTA designed
(2014 Article) https://www.news18.com/blogs/india/saur ... 48564.html
IA already deploys several battlefield surveillance radars (BFSRs). The longest ranged BFSR in the IA inventory is the X-band PIT 530 BFSR-MR, which can detect a group of moving people at 18 km, low flying helicopters at 25 km, moving vehicles at 40 km and a 155 mm artillery blast at 15 km. BFSR-MRs are currently deployed with IA's mechanized infantry units (MIUs). These radars originally designed by ELTA are currently being produced by BEL under license.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Prem Kumar » 28 Jul 2020 13:07

ParGha wrote:The NAMICAs are meant for GUARDS and MECH INF R&S (Tracked) battalions. They can "see" long distances because they have BFSRs. Once they spot the enemy armor, their job is to track the enemy and steer them towards own armor/ambush positions. To do that, they need to be able to shoot-and-scoot from a long distance. They don't have main guns and their Konkurs are for SHTF self-defense. The user-feedback on the BFSRs isn't too good either; I have heard its screen is too noisy and nauseating to the operator. At this rate, they may have to convert the R&S battalions into World War 2-style Long Range Desert Groups for passive "Road Watch Parties", small-scale raiding and special-forces support.


A few points:

1) I take it that you mean the mast-mounted BFSR of the R&S battalions. Rohitvats had written a piece on it. NAMICA itself does not have a BFSR mounted on it. It uses Thermal Imaging and LRF to detect targets.

2) Its news to me that the BFSR is difficult to use. LRDE's BFSR has been one of the success stories of DRDO-IA collaboration. 1000+ inducted! If there are "noise issues", can they provide that feedback and get it resolved?

3) To abhik's point, the BFSR is homegrown (LRDE). ELTA's was a stopgap measure before the homegrown system matured

4) None of this takes away from the step-motherly treatment that NAG/NAMICA received at the hands of the the DGMF and now we are standing nanga when the Chinese come knocking!


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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ParGha » 28 Jul 2020 19:08

In an R&S tracked battalion, the BFSR and NAMICAs (and BMPs) work as a single team. The Nag missiles are meant to be launched after the enemy armored column is spotted by the BFSR, and the BMPs have taken position to channel the enemy towards own armor/ambush location.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Rakesh » 28 Jul 2020 21:06

Old news, but posting because I love the picture....that exhaust! 8)

https://twitter.com/I30mki/status/12877 ... 54497?s=20 ---> In addition to the previous order of 50 Astra mk1 BVRAAM , a new order for 248 Astra mk1 placed for IAF Su-30MKI and MiG-29UPG , and IN MiG-29K.

Image

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby nachiket » 28 Jul 2020 23:35

ParGha wrote:The NAMICAs are meant for GUARDS and MECH INF R&S (Tracked) battalions. They can "see" long distances because they have BFSRs. Once they spot the enemy armor, their job is to track the enemy and steer them towards own armor/ambush positions. To do that, they need to be able to shoot-and-scoot from a long distance. They don't have main guns and their Konkurs are for SHTF self-defense. The user-feedback on the BFSRs isn't too good either; I have heard its screen is too noisy and nauseating to the operator. At this rate, they may have to convert the R&S battalions into World War 2-style Long Range Desert Groups for passive "Road Watch Parties", small-scale raiding and special-forces support.

I don't see how any of this is an argument against the NAMICA. As Prem mentioned, the NAMICA does have its own target acquisition system. Any problems with the BFSR itself should be taken up with DRDO in order to find a solution. Issues like this crop up in many types of equipment including foreign ones (Catherine TI anyone?).

In any case, even a noisy BFSR+NAMICA combo (or just the NAMICA by itself) would have been mightily useful in Ladakh now that Chini light tanks have come knockin than having nothing at all. Now we are left scrambling for Sprut tanks which will arrive too late anyway.

We have seen a lot of cribbing from all quarters (civilian and military) about the inadequate capital budget impacting operational capability but it seems things are much worse since we are getting far less bang for the buck than we could be even for the current budget due to several questionable decisions (or rather a lack of them) like this one.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby darshan » 29 Jul 2020 00:11

I wonder if someone ever raised hand and commented that not everyone in the army wears the same uniform or has the same load out. Soldiers on LAC and LoC would look different. That goes for ATGMS too. Seeker not performing in the desert doesn't break or make anything. The majority of border isn't desert. One would hope that at least someone would have been brave enough to make a slide with various numbers related to LAC and LoC and applicable operational requirements for each. At least CAG should have had.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby basant » 29 Jul 2020 00:32

^^^
CAG?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby darshan » 29 Jul 2020 03:49

basant wrote:^^^
CAG?

I could be wrong here. But, shouldn't an agency like CAG be pointing out things that aren't working in country's favor?


ParGha wrote:Seven out of eight (7/8) of all the R&S battalions, and four out of four (4/4) of the R&S tracked battalions are in the Plains divisions -- specifically tasked to operate in the heat of Rajastan and Punjab. To buy NAMICAs for the mountains, either you have to authorize raising more R&S tracked battalions, OR (preferably) authorize raising new anti-tank artillery regiments. Frankly, the artillery brigades are better resourced to use it effectively (with their SATA batteries) and they have a history of anti-tank artillery regiments (37 Coorg, 4 Maratha, etc).


Shouldn't the planning and utilizing what's available on the table have started the day India learned of chinese acquiring light tanks and enemy having better mechanized army? Heck, one would've thought of deploying even semi working prototypes as deterrent/decoy etc. I'm not sure why one couldn't have had daily test flights of HAL built helos within LAC area just for the heck of it as soon as these helos were flight worthy for the terrain. Same for weapons as soon as they were integrated. The real performance of weapons should have been classified anyways. At the least, enemies would have had to do some extra guess work or preparations. Even duds are useful as long as everything's classified about it.

Lot of it is spilt milk but one really hopes that someone is keeping track of all the wasted opportunities and preparing list of people to be reprimanded for failing to utilize common sense when they could and chose to hide behind the procedures to save their asses.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 29 Jul 2020 04:33

ParGha wrote:
Anujan wrote:The Nag saga is frustrating. First there was a requirement that it should be able to lock on, in extreme ranges, in Rajasthan heat. (why not use main gun or wire guided missiles like konkurs in this scenario?).


The NAMICAs are meant for GUARDS and MECH INF R&S (Tracked) battalions. They can "see" long distances because they have BFSRs. Once they spot the enemy armor, their job is to track the enemy and steer them towards own armor/ambush positions. To do that, they need to be able to shoot-and-scoot from a long distance. They don't have main guns and their Konkurs are for SHTF self-defense. The user-feedback on the BFSRs isn't too good either; I have heard its screen is too noisy and nauseating to the operator. At this rate, they may have to convert the R&S battalions into World War 2-style Long Range Desert Groups for passive "Road Watch Parties", small-scale raiding and special-forces support.


Did we actually work with Elta to get further data processing upgrades? If not, we can't blame them.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 29 Jul 2020 04:36

nachiket wrote:
ParGha wrote:The NAMICAs are meant for GUARDS and MECH INF R&S (Tracked) battalions. They can "see" long distances because they have BFSRs. Once they spot the enemy armor, their job is to track the enemy and steer them towards own armor/ambush positions. To do that, they need to be able to shoot-and-scoot from a long distance. They don't have main guns and their Konkurs are for SHTF self-defense. The user-feedback on the BFSRs isn't too good either; I have heard its screen is too noisy and nauseating to the operator. At this rate, they may have to convert the R&S battalions into World War 2-style Long Range Desert Groups for passive "Road Watch Parties", small-scale raiding and special-forces support.

I don't see how any of this is an argument against the NAMICA. As Prem mentioned, the NAMICA does have its own target acquisition system. Any problems with the BFSR itself should be taken up with DRDO in order to find a solution. Issues like this crop up in many types of equipment including foreign ones (Catherine TI anyone?).

In any case, even a noisy BFSR+NAMICA combo (or just the NAMICA by itself) would have been mightily useful in Ladakh now that Chini light tanks have come knockin than having nothing at all. Now we are left scrambling for Sprut tanks which will arrive too late anyway.

We have seen a lot of cribbing from all quarters (civilian and military) about the inadequate capital budget impacting operational capability but it seems things are much worse since we are getting far less bang for the buck than we could be even for the current budget due to several questionable decisions (or rather a lack of them) like this one.


DRDO's BFSR was provided to the infantry. Its called BFSR-SR. An upgraded version is now available called BFSR-XR. The DRDO BFSR-SR has been upgraded by some pvt guys for automatic target recognition etc. No idea whether IA picked it up. It also comes with an integrated TI to correlate the targets picked up and image them.

The R&S units operate the BFSR-MR. This is an Elta unit which is mounted on tall masts. Its license manufactured at BEL.

These systems are easily a decade old and due for an upgrade. Question is whether IA has asked BEL to do so, or even approached Elta.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ks_sachin » 29 Jul 2020 18:13

Karan M wrote:
nachiket wrote:I don't see how any of this is an argument against the NAMICA. As Prem mentioned, the NAMICA does have its own target acquisition system. Any problems with the BFSR itself should be taken up with DRDO in order to find a solution. Issues like this crop up in many types of equipment including foreign ones (Catherine TI anyone?).

In any case, even a noisy BFSR+NAMICA combo (or just the NAMICA by itself) would have been mightily useful in Ladakh now that Chini light tanks have come knockin than having nothing at all. Now we are left scrambling for Sprut tanks which will arrive too late anyway.

We have seen a lot of cribbing from all quarters (civilian and military) about the inadequate capital budget impacting operational capability but it seems things are much worse since we are getting far less bang for the buck than we could be even for the current budget due to several questionable decisions (or rather a lack of them) like this one.


DRDO's BFSR was provided to the infantry. Its called BFSR-SR. An upgraded version is now available called BFSR-XR. The DRDO BFSR-SR has been upgraded by some pvt guys for automatic target recognition etc. No idea whether IA picked it up. It also comes with an integrated TI to correlate the targets picked up and image them.

The R&S units operate the BFSR-MR. This is an Elta unit which is mounted on tall masts. Its license manufactured at BEL.

These systems are easily a decade old and due for an upgrade. Question is whether IA has asked BEL to do so, or even approached Elta.


Karan this video featuring 17th Guards has the details of the BFSR-MR.

Also the screen that ParGha was mentioning.

https://youtu.be/Hxx_JSgNyT4

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby basant » 29 Jul 2020 21:53

darshan wrote:
basant wrote:^^^
CAG?

I could be wrong here. But, shouldn't an agency like CAG be pointing out things that aren't working in country's favor?

CAG does its evaluation as per laid out procedure. Evaluation of policies is beyond its scope.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby basant » 31 Jul 2020 13:11

Strategic Frontier @strategic_front
Render of a new Agni missile from an Indian pvt company that does fuse testing & manufactures data acquisition systems for strategic weapon systems. Notice the warhead section with 4 MIRVs. DRDO has been working on MIRVs for a while, current status of it is not known in public.

Image


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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby abhik » 31 Jul 2020 23:44

^^^
That's a render of Chinese DF-5 missile.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ramana » 31 Jul 2020 23:55

Yes, Sad that twitter handles have to pass off Chinese stuff as Indian..

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby basant » 01 Aug 2020 01:51

Thanks for the correction. It's stupid of people to do that (and of me to post it here).

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 01 Aug 2020 02:38

Everything is for clicks and likes on social media. A lot of stuff posted by these handles is flat out incorrect. Also correcting it is a double edged sword as in giving too much information away, even if it is open source. Why make the PRC bots and Paki bots task easier.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby basant » 01 Aug 2020 17:28

Harshal Pal @HarshalPal5
Meet indigenous Flag of India swarm-drone named ALFA-S. With AI-backed netwrk centric feature, >100km range & 1hr endurance, these swarm drone are the future of A2G warfare! An LCA could carry 24 of them
+
General overview:
Each drone is about 1.5-2m long, has foldable wings, and would be carried inside canister housing 8 such drones, battery powered propellers and a HE warhead
+
ALFA-S is the acronym for Air Launched Flexible Asset System

Image



See also: Drone Swarms -a Growing Lethality…. Where is the World? Where are We? (Lt Gen (Dr) V K Saxena (Retd), PVSM, AVSM, VSM, Distinguished Fellow, VIF)

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ramana » 04 Aug 2020 00:29


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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Rakesh » 10 Aug 2020 21:14

https://twitter.com/ReviewVayu/status/1 ... 47456?s=20 ---> With ref to MoD’s plans for domestic defence procurement

Mr Jamshyd N Godrej, CMD, Godrej & Boyce: "At Godrej Aerospace & Defence we have helped develop & manufacture important equipment...

Pix1: Godrej BrahMos facility
Pix2: Mr. Godrej (at left) with Dr. Sudhir Mishra, CMD Brahmos (at right)

Image

Image

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ramdas » 11 Aug 2020 20:18

https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/defe ... 2009-07-23

This 2009 article by Sandeep Unnithan refers to a 3500 km range MIRVed K-X as the INS Arihant's primary armament. The K_X=K-4. So, the K-4 is likely to be MIRVed. Hope it has already been tested in such a configuration. It makes sense, given that 4 K-4's have to replace 12 K-15's.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby SSridhar » 11 Aug 2020 21:58

The January 19 test off Vizag was suspected to be a MIRV test.


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