Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

pushkar.bhat · Post by **pushkar.bhat** » 28 Sep 2020 20:29

It takes a Chinese threat to get our forces to accept indigenous weapon platforms. First they choose to push back but once they realized that they need to fight with what they have they want SAAW, Nirbhay, ATAGS just to name a few. I hope the wisdom persists.

nam · Post by **nam** » 28 Sep 2020 21:06

May be our RM went over to Russia to get some CM engines for Nirbhay. In 3-4 months you could produce some of the version that was last tested.

There is a NOTAM of 700+KM for a missile test..It could be Nirbhay..

And yes.. thank you China. May you create more trouble.

wig · Post by **wig** » 28 Sep 2020 22:28

Brahmos, Akash and Nirbhay: India rolls out its missiles to counter Chinese threat
India-China standoff: India’s main stay in the stand-off weapons is the Brahmos air-to-air and air-to-surface cruise missile with its 300 kilogramme warhead
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 07DgJ.html

India-China standoff: India’s main stay in the stand-off weapons is the Brahmos air-to-air and air-to-surface cruise missile with its 300 kilogramme warhead

excerpts

The 500 km-range Brahmos cruise missile, 800 km-range Nirbhay cruise missiles along with Akash surface-to-air missile (SAM) with a capability to target aerial threats 40 km away are at the core of India’s stand-off weapon deterrence to People’s Liberation Army (PLA) missile deployment in Xinjiang and Tibet regions.

Bharadwaj · Post by **Bharadwaj** » 28 Sep 2020 22:43

The mythical Han rocket force will now get its teeth punched in if they try something beyond their propaganda videos. All so called developmental projects are now part of our active arsenal. Great day for our scientists.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 28 Sep 2020 22:50

tsarkar wrote:Going through the Vayushakti 2019 photos gave me an Aha moment.

All bombs dropped were 225 and 450 kg HSLD bombs

Su-30MKI -
[img]https://indianairforce.nic.in/sites/def ... exvs15.jpg

Mirage 2000 -
[img]https://indianairforce.nic.in/sites/def ... exvs12.jpg

Tejas -
[img]https://indianairforce.nic.in/sites/def ... exvs18.jpg
[img]https://indianairforce.nic.in/sites/def ... /exvs4.jpg

Jaguar
[img]https://indianairforce.nic.in/sites/def ... exvs16.jpg

Even the old MiG-21bis is equipped with them
[img]https://indianairforce.nic.in/sites/def ... 4FEB20.jpg

The standardization on Indian made bombs across the entire force is a very welcome step towards indigenization.

IMO the the Tejas and Jaguar bombs do not look like HDSL, they appear very blunt with lower L/W ratio.

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 29 Sep 2020 00:15

Kakarat wrote:India deploys long-range missile Nirbhay to counter Chinese threat at LAC

The Nirbhay missile has been developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO). The missile has been in the testing for seven years. This is Nirbhay missile's first deployment.

According to sources, the new missiles have been deployed in a limited number for now. The missile is likely to get full op clearance later.

The all-weather surface-to-surface missile has a range that can go up to 1,000 km, which mean it is capable of striking targets in Tibet.

'deployment' here seems to be same as saying LCH has been 'deployed'.
it probably means they are putting to use whatever they can get their hands on out of desperation, after years of going slow.
In limited numbers would be some testing samples that would have been preserved

vimal · Post by **vimal** » 29 Sep 2020 00:22

+1
Per Livefist Nirbhay was delayed due to delay in the Manik engine development and currently uses Russi engine. So these must be test samples.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 29 Sep 2020 01:36

Who knows what's on the deployed units. I wouldn't take Livefist as authoritative on every aspect.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 29 Sep 2020 01:48

And where does in the constitution on in Supreme court verdict it says that India has to publish all testing, hain ji?

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 29 Sep 2020 05:05

To some extent, it doesn't even matter if the Nirbhay is not actually deployed. Let the Chinese figure that out. India has made PLA planning that much harder. Their window is only until November, - winter is comin' and the Wall of the HImalayas will not be broken by any dragon. By the time things thaw up north (next May-June), India will have a lot more in place - IA. S400, more Rafale, Tejas, ityadi ityadi.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 29 Sep 2020 07:16

It is certainly plausible that a certain number of Nirbhay missiles have been operationalised to meet the crisis.Let the Chinkos know what's in store for them .In the immortal words of Cpl.Jones," they don't like it up 'em sir!"

==== russian ware peddling attempt deleted ====

vimal · Post by **vimal** » 29 Sep 2020 07:20

And when the balloon goes up, i'm guess those 4.5 Nirbhays will be able to tackle the might of PLA. And FFS stop peddling ruski maal for a change.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 29 Sep 2020 07:58

I'm not sure about getting too ecstatic about this. The Nirbhay never went into serial production. So all we have are the prototypes left over from the program after it ended. Makes sense not to waste them and deploy them now that the need is felt, but it is still a few leftover missiles. Not a large inventory.

And if the Nirbhay prototypes are good enough to be operationally deployed, then we have to go back to the discussion about whether it was a good idea to end the program as a TD and move to a new one instead of operationalizing the missile in it's then current state even if it may not have fulfilled all the requirements.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 29 Sep 2020 08:25

The last part of the article that says that a larger order for Nirbhay will be placed, gives me a glimmer of hope.

Hope its the productionized version of the TD, rather than the new missile with Manik that they were talking about. A quick G2G order with the Russians for a few hundred turbofans would be good (while the Manik + new missile efforts continue apace)

Interesting, isn't it, how when push comes to shove:

1) Desi systems suddenly look promising
2) TDs can become in-service munitions
3) No AON, RFP, RFQ, tendering
4) No hot & high, cold & low trials with infinitely changing GSQRs
5) No hand-wringing about where it will fit in the ORBAT

Sad that it takes an enemy at the door for us to act with sense

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 29 Sep 2020 09:04

Self-reliance had almost become a bad joke here. It is the only way to defeat the Chinese. Need to do the same with Arjun, LCA, Akash, INSAS, ....

sajaym · Post by **sajaym** » 29 Sep 2020 09:12

nachiket wrote:...So all we have are the prototypes left over from the program after it ended. Makes sense not to waste them and deploy them now that the need is felt, but it is still a few leftover missiles. Not a large inventory.

I agree. Unlike massa we people are not the type who like to fire hundreds of cruise missiles into another country at the drop of a hat. So we don't need large stocks of cm immediately. My guess is that these few nirbhay pieces are for some specifically identified targets.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 29 Sep 2020 09:14

Kakarat wrote:India deploys long-range missile Nirbhay to counter Chinese threat at LAC

The Nirbhay missile has been developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO). The missile has been in the testing for seven years. This is Nirbhay missile's first deployment.

According to sources, the new missiles have been deployed in a limited number for now. The missile is likely to get full op clearance later.

The all-weather surface-to-surface missile has a range that can go up to 1,000 km, which mean it is capable of striking targets in Tibet.

The previous news was that the missile was not meeting the mission objectives so it was cancelled.

Now we are seeing that it is being deployed against PRC. What changed that it is ready to enter service now.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 29 Sep 2020 09:22

1. How many are available to deploy?
2. Is the configuration of those missiles standard & consistent?
3. ADE is a lab. Can it manufacture in scale?
4. If not, who is the production agency?
5. Which engine will it use?
6. With Indian Army having 4 Brahmos regiments, we're not exactly short of missiles
7. Add IAF ground launched Brahmos squadrons like the one deployed at Ambala
8. Add IAF Air launched Brahmos
9. Add Prithvi regiments
10. The Navy has large number of land attack BrahMos & Klub

So unless there were a few surplus missiles for testing that weren't used earlier, what are we trying to achieve here?

nachiket wrote:...So all we have are the prototypes left over from the program after it ended. Makes sense not to waste them and deploy them now that the need is felt, but it is still a few leftover missiles. Not a large inventory.

Most likely case

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 29 Sep 2020 09:36

abhik wrote:IMO the the Tejas and Jaguar bombs do not look like HDSL, they appear very blunt with lower L/W ratio.

HSLD is a family of bombs in two variants - 500 lbs (225 kg) and 1000 lbs (450 kg). Both variants are placed next to the MiG-21Bis exhibit at Defexpo 2020 at Lucknow. You can see the blunt with lower L/W ratio there.

Also there are two tail units for each variant - Ballistic Tail Units and Retarder Tail Units. Since low level bombing was done at Vayushakti to enable spectators view the operation, all bombs used there have the shorter retarder tail unit to enable launching aircraft clear the area before bomb explodes to prevent any accidental damage.

This image also shows both variants. Ignore the LGB in the middle.

The LGB just takes the centre warhead section of 1000 lbs bomb and adds nose & tail kit

This photo also shows Harpoon on extreme lhttps://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/posting.php?mode=edit&f=3&p=2462858eft and the CBU-105 in its TFTA packaging on the right. They've just opened the top cover and kept it in the bottom packaging.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 29 Sep 2020 09:51

tsarkar wrote:1. How many are available to deploy?
2. Is the configuration of those missiles standard & consistent?
3. ADE is a lab. Can it manufacture in scale?
4. If not, who is the production agency?
5. Which engine will it use?
6. With Indian Army having 4 Brahmos regiments, we're not exactly short of missiles
7. Add IAF ground launched Brahmos squadrons like the one deployed at Ambala
8. Add IAF Air launched Brahmos
9. Add Prithvi regiments
10. The Navy has large number of land attack BrahMos & Klub

So unless there were a few surplus missiles for testing that weren't used earlier, what are we trying to achieve here?

......

Did similar questions come to mind when buying 6 Apaches for the army? or 36 Rafales for an airforce that has retired hundreds of aircraft (Mig-21, Mig-27s). Why do we suddenly jump to question the indigenous product when no such flags are raised for imports? Where is the "respect the IA and the IAF's decision" or "they know better than us Boys with Toys"?

I would say that if these have been deployed, there must be some secrets that the forces and DRDO keep well hidden from prying eyes. Remember Pokhran!

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 29 Sep 2020 10:39

tsarkar wrote:1. How many are available to deploy?
2. Is the configuration of those missiles standard & consistent?
3. ADE is a lab. Can it manufacture in scale?
4. If not, who is the production agency?
5. Which engine will it use?
6. With Indian Army having 4 Brahmos regiments, we're not exactly short of missiles
7. Add IAF ground launched Brahmos squadrons like the one deployed at Ambala
8. Add IAF Air launched Brahmos
9. Add Prithvi regiments
10. The Navy has large number of land attack BrahMos & Klub

So unless there were a few surplus missiles for testing that weren't used earlier, what are we trying to achieve here?

Every target can't be hit with the Brahmos. It is an expensive missile and its range in a low-altitude profile is limited. Even its maximum range with no altitude restrictions is only 5-600km. Using Prithvi or other ballistic missiles carries a threat of escalation. There is definitely scope for a ~1000km range subsonic cruise missile which can fly and maneuver close to the ground. But its usefulness is in having hundreds of cheaply produced versions available like the Chinese CJ-10. A few prototypes will only go do far. But it is better than nothing.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 29 Sep 2020 11:19

Vivek K wrote:Did similar questions come to mind when buying 6 Apaches for the army? or 36 Rafales for an airforce that has retired hundreds of aircraft (Mig-21, Mig-27s). Why do we suddenly jump to question the indigenous product when no such flags are raised for imports? Where is the "respect the IA and the IAF's decision" or "they know better than us Boys with Toys"?

Yes!

Similar questions are asked and answered when the "Acceptance of Necessity" is provided.

Without answering all these questions and many many more, the "Acceptance of Necessity" is not provided.

The questions are asked in writing in files, and the files are moved between offices by dutiful peons, and the answers are written in writing in files. All filed in L1 Almirah's meticulously for CAG Audit or Parliament or Court scrutiny.

Without AON, no one can issue EOI, RFI, RFP or do any Govt to Govt deals.

The IAF has not accorded AON for NASAMS and even Modi cant proceed on his Govt to Govt deal with his bestie Trump. Infact there wasnt even an Air Staff Requirement for NASAMS.

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2020/07 ... fence.html

BTW I dont see praise from Vivek K or anyone else here for IAF for supporting indigenous BMD program over Modi's nefarious intentions of buying NASAMS and even projecting it as a BMD equal=equal

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 29 Sep 2020 13:02

nachiket wrote:
tsarkar wrote:1. How many are available to deploy?
2. Is the configuration of those missiles standard & consistent?
3. ADE is a lab. Can it manufacture in scale
4. If not, who is the production agency?
5. Which engine will it use?
6. With Indian Army having 4 Brahmos regiments, we're not exactly short of missiles
7. Add IAF ground launched Brahmos squadrons like the one deployed at Ambala
8. Add IAF Air launched Brahmos
9. Add Prithvi regiments
10. The Navy has large number of land attack BrahMos & Klub

So unless there were a few surplus missiles for testing that weren't used earlier, what are we trying to achieve here?
Every target can't be hit with the Brahmos. It is an expensive missile and its range in a low-altitude profile is limited. Even its maximum range with no altitude restrictions is only 5-600km. Using Prithvi or other ballistic missiles carries a threat of escalation. There is definitely scope for a ~1000km range subsonic cruise missile which can fly and maneuver close to the ground. But its usefulness is in having hundreds of cheaply produced versions available like the Chinese CJ-10. A few prototypes will only go do far. But it is better than nothing.

No one is questioning the utility of the Nirbhay missile program with its long range and loitering capability. The IN will use the Nirbhay to replace the Klub land attack missiles.

https://pib.gov.in/PressReleasePage.aspx?PRID=1635916

Long Range Land Attack Cruise Missile Systems and Astra Missiles for the Indian Navy and Indian Air Force (IAF).....addition of Long Range Land Attack Missile Systems having a firing range of 1,000 kilometres to the existing arsenal will bolster the attack capabilities of the Navy and the Air Force

So rest assured procurement of Nirbhay based LRLAMS is in progression.

What is being questioned is the utility of very limited numbers of test missiles built to varying standards to test different sub-systems, different performance parameters and different mission profiles.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 29 Sep 2020 13:07

Either DDMitis or signalling to China on counter deployment.

Given that it was in TD mode unlikely to have more than 5 in inventory and a couple more than can be built in the labs. It still is a lab project.

However, there is another possibility where India *might* be talking of a 1000km missile that can be fielded that is not Nirbhay e.g. Shaurya even if nothing has been heard of it for a long time.

I would settle for DDMitis.

Roop · Post by **Roop** » 29 Sep 2020 13:35

Bharadwaj wrote:The mythical Han rocket force will now get its teeth punched in if they try something beyond their propaganda videos.

Why "mythical"? Are you saying PLA rocket forces don't exist, that it is all a gigantic HAN propagandu bluff? Or is your statement just an effort to give the PLA "H&D" a kick in the azs?

BTW, this is a serious question, I am not looking to start an argument / flame-war.

Bharadwaj · Post by **Bharadwaj** » 29 Sep 2020 15:06

Roop wrote:
Bharadwaj wrote:The mythical Han rocket force will now get its teeth punched in if they try something beyond their propaganda videos.
Why "mythical"? Are you saying PLA rocket forces don't exist, that it is all a gigantic HAN propagandu bluff? Or is your statement just an effort to give the PLA "H&D" a kick in the azs?

BTW, this is a serious question, I am not looking to start an argument / flame-war.

Sarcastic dig at them ... that's all

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 29 Sep 2020 17:01

tsarkar wrote:What is being questioned is the utility of very limited numbers of test missiles built to varying standards to test different sub-systems, different performance parameters and different mission profiles.

Limited numbers because the realization has dawned late that the TD version was good enough for combat (even if its not all singing, all dancing). China won't wait till LRLACM will be ready.

I am hoping that this TD version gets productionized and inducted in numbers. Yes, sub-system standardization, production blueprints are not be ready because there were no plans of induction. But heck, we are a hair's breadth away from war. So, these things can be done on a war-footing.

At any rate, there *was* a mention in the Livefist original article that the Army might be interested in inducting the as-is (TD) version of the Nirbhay. It was the Navy that wanted the next gen one. But given that Shiv Aroor was the only one reporting it & he adds his own masala, one didn't know whether to believe it or not

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 29 Sep 2020 17:07

I am also really hoping that they are producing/fielding BMD systems (AAD/PAD) in numbers to defend our airbases and critical assets from Chinese IRBMs. I hope our thinking isn't limited to protecting Delhi with the ABM.

The nice part about a BMD is that it offers theatre coverage & we won't need 1 system per airfield.

We saw a great video of a massive convoy of trucks en-route to Ladakh, as well as fuel storage facilities. These would be early targets of BM strikes. Without fuel/ration, our troops on the ridges starve.

Though PAD/AAD wouldn't protect these facilities from a cruise missile strike, they can protect them from IRBMs. So, these facilities need an Akash + PAD/AAD bubble

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 29 Sep 2020 21:47

Also, if push comes to shove and these products have to be used, we can get some real-life experience as the Americans do employing their products all over.

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 29 Sep 2020 21:47

I think what we missed that one of the test was highly successful. Where it failed or did not achieve the desired success, IIRC, was treetop flying or lo lo lo flight. If not anything it complicates enemy plan in terms of logistics as they will have to keep air defences or hardened structures if they havent done already...in any case it should be better than raad/babur..we need to also sort out the production issues...so a small production run may not be a bad idea..or who knowit might have already ahppened.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 29 Sep 2020 22:23

Shaurya or more precisely Sagarika (K-15) has been productionized per reports where as Nirbhay was in full TD mode only. To me Shaurya seems a more likely candidate to be deployed at the LAC.

The other possibility is P-800 "Oniks-M" clone may be revealed.

Lastly DDMitis cannot be ruled out.

John · Post by **John** » 29 Sep 2020 22:37

Any word on Prahaar? Can we push to induct it rather than wait for Pranash.

KSingh · Post by **KSingh** » 29 Sep 2020 23:54

tsarkar wrote:https://pib.gov.in/PressReleseDetail.aspx?PRID=1645092

Under the Buy Indian (IDDM) category, the DAC approved ... Smart Anti Airfield Weapon (SAAW). .... The Smart Anti Airfield Weapon being procured at an approx. cost of Rs. 970 crore will add to the fire power of Navy and Airforce.

Just like Astra this is only DAC so let’s hold the celebrations for now but this is great news all the same

And just like Astra this clearance is for both the af and navy which is quite noteworthy for a number of reasons

1) showcases the maturity of Indian development/certification agencies now
2) SAAW is quite a niche weapon and being integrated on the MiG-29K fleet gives an intriguing insight into the shift that has taken place inside Indian naval aviation- fighters/carriers are no longer primarily air defence for battle groups anymore. They are strike assets agaisnt LAND targets

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 30 Sep 2020 01:34

if indigenous weapons are good enough for a war like scenario, they should be good enough for peace time procurement as well.

V_Raman · Post by **V_Raman** » 30 Sep 2020 02:15

I guess the key requirement for peace time procurement is durability and serviceability - many acquisitions might stuck due to that. Even the ordinance produced by OFB might become faulty over time in storage...

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 30 Sep 2020 02:56

pushkar.bhat wrote:It takes a Chinese threat to get our forces to accept indigenous weapon platforms. First they choose to push back but once they realized that they need to fight with what they have they want SAAW, Nirbhay, ATAGS just to name a few. I hope the wisdom persists.

If you think about it it takes some time to make Nirbhay in quantity and definitely more than a few months.
So while its easy to make the underlined remarks, its erroneous as timeline does not support it.
Nirbhay Army version trials were completed and hence produced.
The other two services trials are not complete.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 30 Sep 2020 03:10

Also think of the boost for the SAAW sensors and parts.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 30 Sep 2020 03:11

arvin wrote:
tsarkar wrote:
But its Igla and not Akash. And I didnt see the flash or hear the sound of explosion. Possibly the video cut out before that happened.
Towards the end, the person says it missed by a mile.

The IAF has a IR target for testing IR seeker missiles.

ulka?

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 30 Sep 2020 12:15

Live fist reporting that we have just successfully test fired a Brahmos ER. Any idea on how much is the extended range.

A 600 km missile will give it some real teeth

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 30 Sep 2020 12:19

P-800 "Oniks-M", a version of the the grandfather of Brahmos is supposed to have a range of 800 km.

Here is an interesting bit of info ...
https://tass.com/defense/1079734
Russia develops seaborne cruise missile with increased range capability — sources

Indian Head of BrahMos Aerospace Joint Venture Sudhir Kumar Mishra told TASS at the MAKS-2019 international air show that it was technically possible to increase the missile’s range to 800km.

From the horses mouth assuming an optimized trajectory. Btw, imagine the "Indian" Brahmos head taking about the range of P-800, a Russian missile!