Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 05 Oct 2020 14:05

Is the SMART something like what the Klub family of missiles has, where a ship or Submarine Launch a missile with a Lightweight Torpedo inside a capsule, the missile nears the area where the enemy submarine is , the capsule is released and a parachute is deployed and the lightweight Torpedo drops right above the enemy submarine and starts diving down in the water with a propulsion of 3KM or 6Km to catch the enemy submarine?

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 05 Oct 2020 14:23

Yep looks like it, based on this bit

https://mobile.twitter.com/Amitraaz/sta ... 4252428288

Can't post the details fr my phone.

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 05 Oct 2020 15:51

Successful Flight Test of SMART
Posted On: 05 OCT 2020 1:26PM by PIB Delhi
Supersonic Missile Assisted Release of Torpedo (SMART) has been successfully flight tested today 5th Oct 2020 at 1145 hrs from Wheeler Island off the coast of Odisha. All the mission objectives including missile flight upto the range and altitude, separation of the nose cone, release of Torpedo and deployment of Velocity Reduction Mechanism (VRM) have been met perfectly.

The tracking stations (Radars, Electro Optical Systems) along the coast and the telemetry stations including down range ships monitored all the events.

SMART is a missile assisted release of lightweight Anti-Submarine Torpedo System for Anti-Submarine Warfare (ASW) operations far beyond Torpedo range.This launch and demonstration is significant in establishing Anti-Submarine warfare capabilities.

A number of DRDO laboratories including DRDL, RCI Hyderabad, ADRDE Agra, NSTL Visakhapatnam have developed the technologies required for SMART.

Raksha Mantri Shri Rajnath Singh congratulated the DRDO Scientists for the important feat.

Secretary DD R&D & Chairman DRDO Dr G Satheesh Reddy, said that SMART is a game changer technology demonstration in the Anti-Submarine Warfare. Not sure

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 05 Oct 2020 16:05

comparing this with Anti Submarine ROCket ASROC Emerges of China

nash · Post by **nash** » 05 Oct 2020 16:30

Do we have any NOTAM information of this test ?

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 05 Oct 2020 16:42

A stupid question.
If 650 km is range, how do ships get the info ?

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 05 Oct 2020 16:43

shaun wrote:Successful Flight Test of SMART
Posted On: 05 OCT 2020 1:26PM by PIB Delhi
Supersonic Missile Assisted Release of Torpedo (SMART) has been successfully flight tested today 5th Oct 2020 at 1145 hrs from Wheeler Island off the coast of Odisha. All the mission objectives including missile flight upto the range and altitude, separation of the nose cone, release of Torpedo and deployment of Velocity Reduction Mechanism (VRM) have been met perfectly.

T

The Picture looks more like a BM or BGRV, given the size highly unlikely this is Smart, probably yesterdays Shaurya test after it has evolved without the Nose mounted rocket.

Some Twitter reports say Smart has 650Km range, I don't think that is true as you really cant detect a sub at those ranges, its probably in the 40-60Km range, I think DRDO has given a pic of yesterday's Shaurya's test with news of today's Smart test and it is being messed up.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 05 Oct 2020 17:13

Neela wrote:A stupid question.
If 650 km is range, how do ships get the info ?

Possible with a an integrated Information & command center. GOI does have such a center. Not sure what it is called and not sure if we have integrated our reconnaissance and command centers enough to pull it off.

A P-8I spots a submarine 400 km off the Indian coast or a ship and relays the co-ordinate back to the Indian Navy command center. The center then direct the SMART weapon to be launched at the exact co-ordinate pronto.

Any co-ordinate deviation from the sighting to shooting will be managed by the torpedo during the end game.

basant · Post by **basant** » 05 Oct 2020 18:51

We have to keep in mind that the missile has to decelerate to safe speed. I won't count on torpedo seeker to spot a submarine 10 min after it was spotted. Let alone of a light torpedo.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 05 Oct 2020 20:07

The image does look like Shaurya with the twin fin configuration with the fins unfolding during launch. The distinctive rear double sweep upper fin is noticeable. Unless the same fin configuration is used for SMART.

Wonderful news having a desi ASROC being able to target submarines at standoff ranges.

The 650 km range is a typo. No way we can detect a submarine 650 km away. Even ASROC doesnt go so far. Or any ASW missile for that matter.

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 05 Oct 2020 20:09

Neela wrote:A stupid question.
If 650 km is range, how do ships get the info ?

1. Networked LRMP aircraft.
2. Ships organic ASW choppers.

If the ship has this missile+torp combination, the chopper doesnt need to carry the torpedos. That should increase range, sensor capability, loiter time.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 05 Oct 2020 20:14

sudeepj wrote:
Neela wrote:A stupid question.
If 650 km is range, how do ships get the info ?
1. Networked LRMP aircraft.
2. Ships organic ASW choppers.

If the ship has this missile+torp combination, the chopper doesnt need to carry the torpedos. That should increase range, sensor capability, loiter time.

Doesnt a P-8I carry 5 Mk54 torpedoes?
Doesnt the Seaking & Seahawk carry own twin torpedoes?
Doesnt the submarine move during information transmission, missile launch and missile flight time?
Why does P-8I or Seaking/Seahawk wait instead of using its own torpedoes?

The 650 km is either a typo or nonsense.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 05 Oct 2020 20:17

While the range has NOT been specified, the image in the thread matched what has been released on the SMART test via Raksha Mantri's twitter feed. That is as official as it gets.

https://twitter.com/DefenceMinIndia/sta ... 7824199680

Raksha Mantri Shri @rajnathsingh has congratulated @DRDO_India and other stakeholders for the successful flight test of Supersonic Missile assisted release of Torpedo, SMART.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 05 Oct 2020 20:24

Indranil wrote:But the most probable case is that people are confusing two LR cruise missile projects:
1. A subsonic one which is based on the optimization of Nirbhay. I have seen tenders for this. It has been optimized to 1000 kgs of airframe weight, 505 mm diameter and 5600 mm in length. The nose is more pointed signalling higher cruise speed (or terminal velocity). Payload is the same. The equipment bay and fuel tank is much smaller. The engine and intake section has seen refinement not much different. After a long cruise and an empty tanks, the terminal velocity may be supersonic (in a dive).
2. A parallel to Brahmos, but fully desi and modern. Perhaps an analog to the upcoming ASN4NG/ASLP programs from France and UK. Our system is based on STAR. STAR stands for Supersonic TARget. This is the first implementation of the Liquid Fuel Ramjet (LFRJ) engine. Initially, this will be surface launched (with a booster) and will serve as a supersonic target for A2A and S2A missiles. Capable of 2.4M. I have seen a bunch of tenders on this project lately including for assembly stands to carriers. If my estimates are right then, STAR weighs around 600-700 kgs (without the booster). It is easy to visualize an airlaunched version. The stated goals of the ASN4NG is a range of 1000 kms. It can be expected that the Indian system will also attain something similar.

Indeed, Indranil, this should be a logical development path

The STAR will definitely build on the work of other programs.

BTW I noticed two different body and tailfin configurations in the same SFDR poster. Not that it makes a substantial difference but wanted to understand your PoV on it.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 05 Oct 2020 20:27

DRDO handle has tweeted this press release via PIB. Again no range has been disclosed and therefore we should assume that SMART would most likely mirror the ranges of other weapons in its class.

https://www.pib.gov.in/PressReleseDetai ... ID=1661707

Successful Flight Test of SMART
Posted On: 05 OCT 2020 1:26PM by PIB Delhi

Supersonic Missile Assisted Release of Torpedo (SMART) has been successfully flight tested today 5th Oct 2020 at 1145 hrs from Wheeler Island off the coast of Odisha. All the mission objectives including missile flight upto the range and altitude, separation of the nose cone, release of Torpedo and deployment of Velocity Reduction Mechanism (VRM) have been met perfectly.

The tracking stations (Radars, Electro Optical Systems) along the coast and the telemetry stations including down range ships monitored all the events.

SMART is a missile assisted release of lightweight Anti-Submarine Torpedo System for Anti-Submarine Warfare (ASW) operations far beyond Torpedo range.This launch and demonstration is significant in establishing Anti-Submarine warfare capabilities.

A number of DRDO laboratories including DRDL, RCI Hyderabad, ADRDE Agra, NSTL Visakhapatnam have developed the technologies required for SMART.

Raksha Mantri Shri Rajnath Singh congratulated the DRDO Scientists for the important feat.

Secretary DD R&D & Chairman DRDO Dr G Satheesh Reddy, said that SMART is a game changer technology demonstration in the Anti-Submarine Warfare

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 05 Oct 2020 20:29

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 05 Oct 2020 20:35

SMART is NOT a small missile. Just look at the Tel and the Missile. To my layman's eye looks comparable to Shayura Tel/Launcher platform.

What would be the range of a missile assisted Torpedo with the launch vehicle almost equal in size to Shaurya?

RajaRudra · Post by **RajaRudra** » 05 Oct 2020 21:28

pankajs wrote:SMART is NOT a small missile. Just look at the Tel and the Missile. To my layman's eye looks comparable to Shayura Tel/Launcher platform.

What would be the range of a missile assisted Torpedo with the launch vehicle almost equal in size to Shaurya?

May be It consist of two systems. The Vehicle that will carry the torpedo to a far off distance and release the torpedo. Then the torpedo should be able to track and coast to the bogey.
Torpedo's used to be small(at least in the movies) when compared to the huge missiles. That opens the question, May be in future the vehicle(Missile) should be able to carry more than one torpedo and if possible should be able to release in multiple delivery locations.

That way, probability of getting a hit will get more.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 05 Oct 2020 21:33

https://twitter.com/strategic_front/sta ... 50400?s=20 ----> Shaurya/K15 has been in service of the Navy for a while. The missile was seen (Pic1) when VP Naidu visited NSTL, Vizag in August 2019. Vizag is where IN's SSBNs are currently based at. The Navy's version is packed in an composite cannister (Pic2) to be launched from silos of SSBNs.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 05 Oct 2020 21:35

pankajs wrote:SMART is NOT a small missile. Just look at the Tel and the Missile. To my layman's eye looks comparable to Shayura Tel/Launcher platform. What would be the range of a missile assisted Torpedo with the launch vehicle almost equal in size to Shaurya?

While the launch vehicle is large, the torpedo has bulk too. Add decelerating devices like parachutes and a considerable bulk of the missile is occupied.

https://www.navyrecognition.com/index.p ... -navy.html

The torpedo’s gross weight is 220 kilograms, is 2750 millimeters in length and 324 millimeters in diameter. The warhead uses a 50 kilogram highly explosive (HE) filler and its effective range is 7 kilometers with a maximum depth of 540 meters.

The databoard in the background has more accurate information

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 05 Oct 2020 21:39

The list of labs indicates what has gone into the missile

pankajs wrote:https://www.pib.gov.in/PressReleseDetai ... 61707....A number of DRDO laboratories including...

DRDL - Missile propulsion
RCI Hyderabad - Missile guidance
ADRDE Agra, - parachutes and deceleration
NSTL Visakhapatnam - torpedo

nrshah · Post by **nrshah** » 05 Oct 2020 22:02

Wow, it is raining missiles... CLGM twice, Shaurya and now this. Wish the speed keep up for next few months and this stand off at LAC while not good but inevitable continues for some time...

Think of the possibilities it offer. A helicopter gets a fix and passively tracks the submarine while relaying information to ship command. The submarines is not aware. In few minutes there is a splash in water it hears not sure what was it and instantly its sonar starts screaming of approaching torpedo with minimal time to reaction..

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 05 Oct 2020 22:08

The main thing that SMART achieves is the sensor-shooter separation.

Sensors (today & future)
P8I
Sonobuoys
ASW Helis (with or without torpedoes)
ASW corvettes & other ships
Coast Guard vessels
UAVs like Sea Guardians & unarmed UAVs
UUVs
Future SOSUS like arrays

Shooters
Ships
Land-based batteries

Its not a question of whether a P8I or an ASW carries torps organically. By separating sensor & shooter, we can have a whole spectrum of detection assets and it doesn't matter whether they are armed or not. It helps building/deploying assets that specialize only in detection

The shooter can be sitting someplace else. The beauty of networking ensures that a torp can be dropped at a place such that the sub is within its kill-radius

ernest · Post by **ernest** » 05 Oct 2020 22:50

Prem Kumar wrote:The main thing that SMART achieves is the sensor-shooter separation.

Sensors (today & future)
...

Shooters
Ships
Land-based batteries

Its not a question of whether a P8I or an ASW carries torps organically. By separating sensor & shooter, we can have a whole spectrum of detection assets and it doesn't matter whether they are armed or not. It helps building/deploying assets that specialize only in detection

The shooter can be sitting someplace else. The beauty of networking ensures that a torp can be dropped at a place such that the sub is within its kill-radius

Exactly. This will help reduce the cost of Anti-Submarine coverage. Moreover, we won't need dedicated corvettes / frigates for protecting our vital coastal facilities, and traffic out of them. Surveillance UAV / UUVs , coast guard, and the like would be sufficient as long as they are covered by a land based launcher or ship. This will alsso free up the vessels with more teeth for offensive ops.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 05 Oct 2020 23:03

For those questioning the 650 Km range, its clearly mentioned in the MoD 2018-2019 annual report. Thanks to "The Week"'s article that Swarajya republished, that had this reference

https://www.mod.gov.in/sites/default/fi ... AR2018.pdf

Check page 105

Supersonic Missile Assisted Release of Torpedo (SMART): DRDO has taken up a project to develop and demonstrate a missile assisted release of light weight anti-submarine torpedo system for ASW operations far beyond torpedo range (50-650 km). During August, 2018, pneumatic ejection test of TAL dummy torpedo from canister was carried out at 150 bar which established the design of safe shear pin failure. Ejection speed of torpedo was also estimated during the trials.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 05 Oct 2020 23:13

Prem Kumar wrote:For those questioning the 650 Km range, its clearly mentioned in the MoD 2018-2019 annual report. Thanks to "The Week"'s article that Swarajya republished, that had this reference

https://www.mod.gov.in/sites/default/fi ... AR2018.pdf

Check page 105

Supersonic Missile Assisted Release of Torpedo (SMART): DRDO has taken up a project to develop and demonstrate a missile assisted release of light weight anti-submarine torpedo system for ASW operations far beyond torpedo range (50-650 km). During August, 2018, pneumatic ejection test of TAL dummy torpedo from canister was carried out at 150 bar which established the design of safe shear pin failure. Ejection speed of torpedo was also estimated during the trials.

The only logical way I can make sense of the 650 km number is having underwater SOSUS arrays far away and using land based SMART to destroy targets detected by SOSUS. However SOSUS is expensive to develop, deploy and super maintenance intensive. Also I havent read about any Indian Development of SOSUS arrays.

Having said that, a SOSUS array along with a land based long range missile can create permanent submarine chokepoints in Middle East and Straits of Malacca/East Indian Oceans from Indian territory.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 05 Oct 2020 23:15

Prem Kumar wrote:The main thing that SMART achieves is the sensor-shooter separation.

Sensors (today & future)
P8I
Sonobuoys
ASW Helis (with or without torpedoes)
ASW corvettes & other ships
Coast Guard vessels
UAVs like Sea Guardians & unarmed UAVs
UUVs
Future SOSUS like arrays

Shooters
Ships
Land-based batteries

Its not a question of whether a P8I or an ASW carries torps organically. By separating sensor & shooter, we can have a whole spectrum of detection assets and it doesn't matter whether they are armed or not. It helps building/deploying assets that specialize only in detection

The shooter can be sitting someplace else. The beauty of networking ensures that a torp can be dropped at a place such that the sub is within its kill-radius

Can it be deployed on ships? Range has hopefully been minimized because of it is entirely shore based, more range would be of great help. India's own sub AND carrier killer?

titash · Post by **titash** » 05 Oct 2020 23:40

ASROC range is under 50 km. Hard to see how a weapon in the same class can go 650 km.

On the other hand, ASROC is < 5m and weighs < 500 Kg. If we're using a Shaurya class weapon i.e (10 m, 6000 Kg) as the baseline, than ranges can be greatly extended. But the question of precise targeting comes into play.

Would a hypersonic Shaurya based weapon be able to deliver a torpedo at 650 Km in the same amount of time that ASROC can deliver a torpedo at 50 Km? If not, then how would you target a moving submarine at those ranges?

I think based on the small size of the truck (it's not a 8x8 that the Shaurya/Pralay launchers use) it's more of a 65 Km ranged ASROC class weapon as opposed to a 650 Km weapon.

Raghunathgb · Post by **Raghunathgb** » 06 Oct 2020 00:05

Point 1 - it was clearly mentioned in mod report 2018-19 that max range is 650 kms. One can argue it could be typo, but looking at min range of 50 kms I go with 650 kms than 65.
Point 2 - going by tweets of defense ministry and hemant Kumar rout , it is often been represented as cutting edge technology which wouldn't have been the case if range was limited to 65 kms.
Point 3 - base missile looks like shaurya and definitely supports 650 kms range.you don't need that size missile for short ranges.

Agreed that BRF members are not able to crack the puzzle, but why doubt the capabilities and often downplay out strength. This is one of its class missile in world which no country has developed for such ranges. So unless proved otherwise let's stop speculating and downplaying it's ranges.

kit · Post by **kit** » 06 Oct 2020 00:12

Interesting that the SMART is a vertical launch system., is it possible that IN would be fielding a unified launch system for anti ship missiles and torpedoes ?!., would be quite interesting to see a paki or a chini ship duck a dual launch !!.. or rather they would be a sitting duck ?!.. chinese duck anyone ?

( ahem, one over and one under looks like a good combo to tear up any ship looks like the IN is going to give it to "them" both ways

!! )

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 06 Oct 2020 00:19

Cain Marko wrote: Can it be deployed on ships? Range has hopefully been minimized because of it is entirely shore based, more range would be of great help. India's own sub AND carrier killer?

1) From the pics, it looks like the carrier missile is based on Shaurya. The 650 Km range also corroborates this

2) If its Shaurya (whose Arihant equivalent is K15 or B05), then its a missile sitting inside a VLS. Hopefully, we can standardize the VLS and have a "drop-in" option into our destroyers. The Navy gurus can help us understand if there will be space inside an ASW Corvette to host SMART

3) There is a separate ASBM (carrier killer) project in the works. SMART is not that. The whole SMART concept of slowing down before releasing a torp defeats the purpose of an ASBM. However, its possible that the ASBM might be based on, once again, Shaurya. If so, the UVLS comes into play once again.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 06 Oct 2020 00:19

There is no reason not to use ALH as ASW platform of choice if the range is 650 KMS. Pretty much the ship can host the missile and all the heli platform has to carry is dunking sonar, extending its range on station by a large factor.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 06 Oct 2020 00:21

Yep, we can have land based ALH, Coast Guard ALH, Dornier etc all acting as sensors. Not to mention UAVs. It just opens up a whole range of possibilities

ernest · Post by **ernest** » 06 Oct 2020 00:24

titash wrote:
Would a hypersonic Shaurya based weapon be able to deliver a torpedo at 650 Km in the same amount of time that ASROC can deliver a torpedo at 50 Km? If not, then how would you target a moving submarine at those ranges?

given mach 7+ speed of Shaurya, it will cover the distance in less than 350s (assuming average speed of mach 6, with terminal deceleration)

A submarine going full steam will cover 2-3 nautical miles max, and will be detectable by the torpedo given the signature at max speed.
If it is going slower, it will be quieter, but will cover < 1 nautical mile. Again will be within reasonable detection range.

These are max values without mid course correction based on updates from sensors. It remains to be seen how it is incorporated into the system

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 06 Oct 2020 00:26

As Saurav Jha says, for once, we are not the "5th country to develop this capability".

We are the first country to have such a game-changing, standoff ASW capability. We can build doctrines & networking capabilities that will take advantage of such a weapon.

And SMART was developed in record time.

Lets celebrate this stupendous achievement!

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 06 Oct 2020 00:28

Prem Kumar wrote:The whole SMART concept of slowing down before releasing a torp defeats the purpose of an ASBM

That isn't necessarily true in all possible concepts of employment. There is some utility in being fast and then going slow. The former provides great time to target and bypasses many mid-and terminal course defenses. The latter allows the unleashing potential sensors and sensor/shooters that offer higher fidelity targeting and hunter-killer like applications (especially when you have to pick a ship from a group or from decoys (emitters)). Hypersonic BGV's are already trading speed for survivability (compared to ballistic missiles) so it isn't out of the realm of possibilities that other concepts do similar things to enhance the probability of successfully finding and fixing the right target.

https://aviationweek.com/defense-space/ ... onic-entry

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/3 ... onic-speed

kit · Post by **kit** » 06 Oct 2020 00:30

Prem Kumar wrote:As Saurav Jha says, for once, we are not the "5th country to develop this capability".

We are the first country to have such a game-changing, standoff ASW capability. We can build doctrines & networking capabilities that will take advantage of such a weapon.

And SMART was developed in record time.

Lets celebrate this stupendous achievement!

indeed as a shore-based weapon esp at the Andamans ..

., i can think to this as a possible mine-laying weapon as well ., chinis are toast

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 06 Oct 2020 00:39

brar_w wrote: That isn't necessarily true in all possible concepts of employment. There is some utility in being fast and then going slow. The former provides great time to target and bypasses many mid-and terminal course defenses. The latter allows the unleashing potential sensors and sensor/shooters that offer higher fidelity targeting and hunter-killer like applications (especially when you have to pick a ship from a group or from decoys (emitters)). Hypersonic BGV's are already trading speed for survivability (compared to ballistic missiles) so it isn't out of the realm of possibilities that other concepts do similar things to enhance the probability of successfully finding and fixing the right target.

https://aviationweek.com/defense-space/ ... onic-entry

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/3 ... onic-speed

Always good to hear such counter-points. In the realm of Nirbhay type loitering missiles, I agree that there is a lot of value in the fast-slow mode. Get to the general target area quickly, then slow down to recce, relay images back, have a cup of chai & pick out a target! Hope some future variation of Nirbhay/Brahmos will do this.

Then, there is the Klub style slow-fast mode, that takes advantage of efficient cruising to cover long distances while skimming low, followed by a supersonic sprint to defeat air-defences in the endgame

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 06 Oct 2020 00:44

Prem Kumar wrote:
brar_w wrote: That isn't necessarily true in all possible concepts of employment. There is some utility in being fast and then going slow. The former provides great time to target and bypasses many mid-and terminal course defenses. The latter allows the unleashing potential sensors and sensor/shooters that offer higher fidelity targeting and hunter-killer like applications (especially when you have to pick a ship from a group or from decoys (emitters)). Hypersonic BGV's are already trading speed for survivability (compared to ballistic missiles) so it isn't out of the realm of possibilities that other concepts do similar things to enhance the probability of successfully finding and fixing the right target.

https://aviationweek.com/defense-space/ ... onic-entry

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/3 ... onic-speed
Always good to hear such counter-points. In the realm of Nirbhay type loitering missiles, I agree that there is a lot of value in the fast-slow mode. Get to the general target area quickly, then slow down to recce, relay images back, have a cup of chai & pick out a target! Hope some future variation of Nirbhay/Brahmos will do this.

Then, there is the Klub style slow-fast mode, that takes advantage of efficient cruising to cover long distances while skimming low, followed by a supersonic sprint to defeat air-defences in the endgame

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7625&p=2464121#p2464121

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 06 Oct 2020 01:15

I am most exited about coastal batteries of these Missile assisted Torps.