Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Larry Walker
BRFite
Posts: 319
Joined: 26 Nov 2019 17:33

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Larry Walker » 06 Oct 2020 13:14

If you are being pinged - wouldn't trying to outrun generate more noise and help maintain track or is it better idea to go full silent with least noise and hope that track is lost ?

kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4068
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby kit » 06 Oct 2020 13:26

Larry Walker wrote:If you are being pinged - wouldn't trying to outrun generate more noise and help maintain track or is it better idea to go full silent with least noise and hope that track is lost ?


And then would be a second ping !.. when you go after a SSBN my guess it's not gonna be just one heavy weight torpedo esp for any chinese subs.

tsarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3263
Joined: 08 May 2006 13:44
Location: mumbai

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby tsarkar » 06 Oct 2020 13:42

Kanson wrote:
For those questioning the 650 Km range, its clearly mentioned in the MoD 2018-2019 annual report. Thanks to "The Week"'s article that Swarajya republished, that had this reference

https://www.mod.gov.in/sites/default/files/MoDAR2018.pdf

Check page 105



Here the range of the TAL torpedo mentioned is around 20 km ONLY.

"far beyond torpedo range (50-650 km)" : obviously 50-650 km is beyond the range of TAL light weight torpedo.

Any ASROC type solution involves light weight torpedoes only.

So torpedo under discussion is LWT.

If anyone could recall, the booster/first stage of k-15/shaurya range is mentioned to be around 60 km .

So 50 - 650 km data suits the min & max range of the carrier missile.

In the recent test, Shaurya is flown at 40 km high alt. Earlier Shaurya was tested at various hi lo altitudes.

To release the torpedo, the missile must fly closer to sea surface at lower altitude. At lower alt due to high air density speed is reduced to supersonic.

Thanks for the article.


The "far beyond torpedo range (50-650 km)" refers to 533 mm HWT like Varunastra whose ranges are 50-65 km.

There are two indigenous LWT torpedoes.

One is Torpedo Advanced Lightweight (TAL). It is in production at BDL and exported to Myanmar. Its specs are what I posted earlier.

The torpedo’s gross weight is 220 kilograms, is 2750 millimeters in length and 324 millimeters in diameter. The warhead uses a 50 kilogram highly explosive (HE) filler and its effective range is 7 kilometers with a maximum depth of 540 meters.

A newer torpedo under development at DRDO NSTL is Advanced Light Weight Torpedo. Its specifications are mentioned in MOD AR 2018

Advanced Light Weight Torpedo (ALWT): ALWT is an anti-submarine torpedo launched from ship, helicopter or fixed wing aircraft. ALWT has dual speed capability and endurance of 25 km at low speed (25 knots) and 12 km at high speed (50 knots).

This torpedo is under development.

Pratyush wrote:I would guess that the system would be compatible with the new universal VLS being developed by L&T.

Yes, including cold launch.

I analysed the missile dimensions and while it uses Shaurya template, the booster is much shorter. So its less than 10+ meters height of the Shaurya.

kit wrote:Why would a ballistic missile directed towards the Indian Ocean or even indo china sea be misconstrued?

Most Missile Warning Systems for Mutually Assured Destruction use Infra Red Detection of launch heat signatures or long range radar detection of missiles at altitude. Any missile detected at launch or flying at high altitude can therefore trigger MAD.

Even a ballistic missile launch at naval ships can trigger MAD, irrespective of whether it has nuclear weapons or not.

Prem Kumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2659
Joined: 31 Mar 2009 00:10

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Prem Kumar » 06 Oct 2020 13:54

tsarkar: can a sub out-dive a torpedo? Example: TAL's max depth is 540m. What's the max-depth of ALWT, if you know?

Prem Kumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2659
Joined: 31 Mar 2009 00:10

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Prem Kumar » 06 Oct 2020 14:04

There's been some discussion about ASBM in the previous page. DRDO has a dedicated ASBM project.

Some key requirements for an ASBM that's different from SMART:

1) Longer ranger. Must be 1500 Km+ at least
2) The missile must have a seeker. For SMART, that's taken care of by the sub-munition, i.e. the torpedo
3) Will need end-game maneuvering to defeat defenses. Example: S-dive or zig-zag/up-down (sea-skimming ?)

While its entirely possible that the Shaurya can be repurposed to satisfy all of the above, I don't know if that's the base design that they have gone with.

At any rate, SMART cannot be used to target CBGs. That's a different missile in the works.

tsarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3263
Joined: 08 May 2006 13:44
Location: mumbai

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby tsarkar » 06 Oct 2020 15:04

Prem Kumar wrote:tsarkar: can a sub out-dive a torpedo?

Theoretically yes practically no. The Russians tried building deep diving titanium submarines but exacting build and repair standards could not be maintained.

Given that nuclear submarines have unlimited power, they can outrun torpedoes if the torpedo can be detected early and the nuclear submarine can build up speed. But speed results in noise and the next torpedo can be dropped/fired within closer a no escape zone.

Submarines have a chance of outrunning/going silent against other submarines but no chance if detected by a ship or aircraft that is faster than a submarine.

Prem Kumar wrote:While its entirely possible that the Shaurya can be repurposed to satisfy all of the above, I don't know if that's the base design that they have gone with.

The K-15/B-05/Sagarika launched from INS Arihant has been doing that for 10 years

Nilanjan
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 33
Joined: 04 Apr 2020 13:47

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Nilanjan » 06 Oct 2020 16:09

tsarkar wrote:
Kanson wrote:
Here the range of the TAL torpedo mentioned is around 20 km ONLY.

"far beyond torpedo range (50-650 km)" : obviously 50-650 km is beyond the range of TAL light weight torpedo.

Any ASROC type solution involves light weight torpedoes only.

So torpedo under discussion is LWT.

If anyone could recall, the booster/first stage of k-15/shaurya range is mentioned to be around 60 km .

So 50 - 650 km data suits the min & max range of the carrier missile.

In the recent test, Shaurya is flown at 40 km high alt. Earlier Shaurya was tested at various hi lo altitudes.

To release the torpedo, the missile must fly closer to sea surface at lower altitude. At lower alt due to high air density speed is reduced to supersonic.

Thanks for the article.


The "far beyond torpedo range (50-650 km)" refers to 533 mm HWT like Varunastra whose ranges are 50-65 km.

There are two indigenous LWT torpedoes.

One is Torpedo Advanced Lightweight (TAL). It is in production at BDL and exported to Myanmar. Its specs are what I posted earlier.

The torpedo’s gross weight is 220 kilograms, is 2750 millimeters in length and 324 millimeters in diameter. The warhead uses a 50 kilogram highly explosive (HE) filler and its effective range is 7 kilometers with a maximum depth of 540 meters.

A newer torpedo under development at DRDO NSTL is Advanced Light Weight Torpedo. Its specifications are mentioned in MOD AR 2018

Advanced Light Weight Torpedo (ALWT): ALWT is an anti-submarine torpedo launched from ship, helicopter or fixed wing aircraft. ALWT has dual speed capability and endurance of 25 km at low speed (25 knots) and 12 km at high speed (50 knots).

This torpedo is under development.

Pratyush wrote:I would guess that the system would be compatible with the new universal VLS being developed by L&T.

Yes, including cold launch.

I analysed the missile dimensions and while it uses Shaurya template, the booster is much shorter. So its less than 10+ meters height of the Shaurya.

kit wrote:Why would a ballistic missile directed towards the Indian Ocean or even indo china sea be misconstrued?

Most Missile Warning Systems for Mutually Assured Destruction use Infra Red Detection of launch heat signatures or long range radar detection of missiles at altitude. Any missile detected at launch or flying at high altitude can therefore trigger MAD.

Even a ballistic missile launch at naval ships can trigger MAD, irrespective of whether it has nuclear weapons or not.

Smart dimention is quite similar to brahmos...it's a new design..cheaper and simpler than shourya..

Nilanjan
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 33
Joined: 04 Apr 2020 13:47

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Nilanjan » 06 Oct 2020 16:14

Prem Kumar wrote:There's been some discussion about ASBM in the previous page. DRDO has a dedicated ASBM project.

Some key requirements for an ASBM that's different from SMART:

1) Longer ranger. Must be 1500 Km+ at least
2) The missile must have a seeker. For SMART, that's taken care of by the sub-munition, i.e. the torpedo
3) Will need end-game maneuvering to defeat defenses. Example: S-dive or zig-zag/up-down (sea-skimming ?)

While its entirely possible that the Shaurya can be repurposed to satisfy all of the above, I don't know if that's the base design that they have gone with.

At any rate, SMART cannot be used to target CBGs. That's a different missile in the works.

Effectiveness of asbm doubtfull...why not design a bigger brahmos like missile!! Probably hstdv based missile will have that type of range..

Kanson
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3049
Joined: 20 Oct 2006 21:00

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Kanson » 06 Oct 2020 17:00

For those questioning the 650 Km range, its clearly mentioned in the MoD 2018-2019 annual report. Thanks to "The Week"'s article that Swarajya republished, that had this reference

https://www.mod.gov.in/sites/default/files/MoDAR2018.pdf

Check page 105

Supersonic Missile Assisted Release of Torpedo (SMART): DRDO has taken up a project to develop and demonstrate a missile assisted release of light weight anti-submarine torpedo system for ASW operations far beyond torpedo range (50-650 km). During August, 2018, pneumatic ejection test of TAL dummy torpedo from canister was carried out at 150 bar which established the design of safe shear pin failure. Ejection speed of torpedo was also estimated during the trials.


tsarkar wrote:
Kanson wrote:
Here the range of the TAL torpedo mentioned is around 20 km ONLY.

"far beyond torpedo range (50-650 km)" : obviously 50-650 km is beyond the range of TAL light weight torpedo.

Any ASROC type solution involves light weight torpedoes only.

So torpedo under discussion is LWT.

If anyone could recall, the booster/first stage of k-15/shaurya range is mentioned to be around 60 km .

So 50 - 650 km data suits the min & max range of the carrier missile.

In the recent test, Shaurya is flown at 40 km high alt. Earlier Shaurya was tested at various hi lo altitudes.

To release the torpedo, the missile must fly closer to sea surface at lower altitude. At lower alt due to high air density speed is reduced to supersonic.

Thanks for the article.


The "far beyond torpedo range (50-650 km)" refers to 533 mm HWT like Varunastra whose ranges are 50-65 km.

There are two indigenous LWT torpedoes.

One is Torpedo Advanced Lightweight (TAL). It is in production at BDL and exported to Myanmar. Its specs are what I posted earlier.

The torpedo’s gross weight is 220 kilograms, is 2750 millimeters in length and 324 millimeters in diameter. The warhead uses a 50 kilogram highly explosive (HE) filler and its effective range is 7 kilometers with a maximum depth of 540 meters.

A newer torpedo under development at DRDO NSTL is Advanced Light Weight Torpedo. Its specifications are mentioned in MOD AR 2018

Advanced Light Weight Torpedo (ALWT): ALWT is an anti-submarine torpedo launched from ship, helicopter or fixed wing aircraft. ALWT has dual speed capability and endurance of 25 km at low speed (25 knots) and 12 km at high speed (50 knots).

This torpedo is under development.



Thanks for the update.

I believe you are mistaken.

I was interested in understanding MoD report.

Coming To TAL/Shyena LWT:

DRDO presents no information on the range. And maintains the operational depth as 450 m only.

Whereas Lt. General P.C. Katoch (Retd) here mentions the range as 19 km.

YashG
BRFite
Posts: 193
Joined: 22 Apr 2017 00:10

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby YashG » 06 Oct 2020 17:47

kit wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:Why not as a cbg killer? It's not like the missile is going to slow down so much that the ship(s) is going to disappear in the 10 minutes of time it has? During this time, a mpa could stay far away from the cbg air cover, and keep tracking it, providing mcu to the missile.

Even if carriers might be harder to pursue because of the air threat, I don't see why other surface assets like missile carrying ddgs can't be targeted?


Why not shoot of a couple of Brahmos along with a couple of SMARTS at the super duper chinky ACarrier ?!.. dudes probably would wonder what hit first !


China sending a CBG in IOR. Very imaginary scenario. They neither have expereince in CBG ops, nor the tiny channels into IOR are conducive for CBG entries. Against the mighty Andamans, I dont see China ever trying CBG in IOR ( nt in next 5 - 10 years atleast)

tsarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3263
Joined: 08 May 2006 13:44
Location: mumbai

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby tsarkar » 06 Oct 2020 18:22

Kanson wrote:
For those questioning the 650 Km range, its clearly mentioned in the MoD 2018-2019 annual report. Thanks to "The Week"'s article that Swarajya republished, that had this reference

https://www.mod.gov.in/sites/default/files/MoDAR2018.pdf

Check page 105



tsarkar wrote:
The "far beyond torpedo range (50-650 km)" refers to 533 mm HWT like Varunastra whose ranges are 50-65 km.

There are two indigenous LWT torpedoes.

One is Torpedo Advanced Lightweight (TAL). It is in production at BDL and exported to Myanmar. Its specs are what I posted earlier.

The torpedo’s gross weight is 220 kilograms, is 2750 millimeters in length and 324 millimeters in diameter. The warhead uses a 50 kilogram highly explosive (HE) filler and its effective range is 7 kilometers with a maximum depth of 540 meters.

A newer torpedo under development at DRDO NSTL is Advanced Light Weight Torpedo. Its specifications are mentioned in MOD AR 2018

Advanced Light Weight Torpedo (ALWT): ALWT is an anti-submarine torpedo launched from ship, helicopter or fixed wing aircraft. ALWT has dual speed capability and endurance of 25 km at low speed (25 knots) and 12 km at high speed (50 knots).

This torpedo is under development.



Thanks for the update.

I believe you are mistaken.

I was interested in understanding MoD report.

Coming To TAL/Shyena LWT:

DRDO presents no information on the range. And maintains the operational depth as 450 m only.

Whereas Lt. General P.C. Katoch (Retd) here mentions the range as 19 km.


Your belief is wrong. The TAL specifications came from BDL press release when exporting the torpedoes to Myanmar. I quoted the link a few pages ago. And I have personally seen TAL torpedoes during veteran's event years ago. TAL manufacture started in 2001. ALWT will be its successor. So know the difference between TAL (in service) and ALWT (under development) very well.

Also the name Shyena/Shenya is not official - neither NSTL nor DRDO nor IN uses it. Do show me an official publication with the name Shenya.

John
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2509
Joined: 03 Feb 2001 12:31

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby John » 06 Oct 2020 19:56

It is no coincidence SMART is very similar to Brahmos in size, it will be carried in existing L&T UVLS launchers which will help vary the load out for 16 cells we have on P-15A/B.

It will make it very hard for SSKs to lob AshM when there is airborne assets, the location of launch can be pinpointed and SMART can be fired at them.

pankajs
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14734
Joined: 13 Aug 2009 20:56

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby pankajs » 06 Oct 2020 20:11

Very difficult to judge is SMART is closer to Shaurya or Brahmos in dimensions without details. If it is Shaurya based or derived then its launcher too will be different from that used for Brahmos.

Ok ... going back to the DRDO/PIB press release
https://www.pib.gov.in/PressReleseDetai ... ID=1661707
Successful Flight Test of SMART
Posted On: 05 OCT 2020 1:26PM by PIB Delhi

Supersonic Missile Assisted Release of Torpedo (SMART) has been successfully flight tested today 5th Oct 2020 at 1145 hrs from Wheeler Island off the coast of Odisha. All the mission objectives including missile flight upto the range and altitude, separation of the nose cone, release of Torpedo and deployment of Velocity Reduction Mechanism (VRM) have been met perfectly.

The tracking stations (Radars, Electro Optical Systems) along the coast and the telemetry stations including down range ships monitored all the events.

SMART is a missile assisted release of lightweight Anti-Submarine Torpedo System for Anti-Submarine Warfare (ASW) operations far beyond Torpedo range.This launch and demonstration is significant in establishing Anti-Submarine warfare capabilities.

A number of DRDO laboratories including DRDL, RCI Hyderabad, ADRDE Agra, NSTL Visakhapatnam have developed the technologies required for SMART.

Raksha Mantri Shri Rajnath Singh congratulated the DRDO Scientists for the important feat.

Secretary DD R&D & Chairman DRDO Dr G Satheesh Reddy, said that SMART is a game changer technology demonstration in the Anti-Submarine Warfare

OTOH, the talks of "altitude", "separation of the nose cone", "release of Torpedo" and the involvement of DRDL and RCI Hyderabad all point to a ballistic missile that is most likely Shaurya. No reference to any entity connected with the Brahmos program.

Just based on the press release, my money is on Shaurya based launch vehicle and launcher rather than Bramhos based. Let more details come out.

pankajs
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14734
Joined: 13 Aug 2009 20:56

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby pankajs » 06 Oct 2020 20:34

Nilanjan wrote:Effectiveness of asbm doubtfull...why not design a bigger brahmos like missile!! Probably hstdv based missile will have that type of range..

What issue will an ASBM face that can be bypassed using an extended range Brahmos or a HSTDV based missile?

prasannasimha
Forum Moderator
Posts: 1207
Joined: 15 Aug 2016 00:22

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby prasannasimha » 06 Oct 2020 20:45

Image
Add 1 or 2 more ship based ones and you have covered entire IOR West attack South attack - attack through Malacca strait and around Indonesia

pankajs
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14734
Joined: 13 Aug 2009 20:56

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby pankajs » 06 Oct 2020 20:58

^^
1. Borderline overlap of the bubbles will not do. While 650 km may be the optimized range for a fail-safe bubble and adequate overlap, better to assume a 500 km range.
2. I think there will be another bubble on the western shores plus one at the southern tip.
3. A bubble based in Maldives is very unlikely.

I would start with a placement at Kanyakumari and go up the coast placing the next battery about 1000 (500km + 500 km) km north and so on till full coast is covered.

rajkumar
BRFite
Posts: 197
Joined: 22 Sep 2000 11:31
Location: London U.K
Contact:

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby rajkumar » 06 Oct 2020 20:59


Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12423
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Aditya_V » 06 Oct 2020 21:12

pankajs wrote:^^
1. Borderline overlap of the bubbles will not do. While 650 km may be the optimized range for a fail-safe bubble and adequate overlap, better to assume a 500 km range.
2. I think there will be another bubble on the western shores plus one at the southern tip.
3. A bubble based in Maldives is very unlikely.

I would start with a placement at Kanyakumari and go up the coast placing the next battery about 1000 (500km + 500 km) km north and so on till full coast is covered.



Most of these missiles will be ship based, shore based batteries will be fewer

pankajs
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14734
Joined: 13 Aug 2009 20:56

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby pankajs » 06 Oct 2020 21:25

^^
In anycase, 5 Peninsular based batteries will cover all the approach to the main land plus additional 1 or 2 on Andaman & Lakshweep.

Just noticed that a launcher placed on NH 6 as it skirts the western Gujarat will just miss Gwadar or perhaps not. May be the declared range of 650 km is conservative.

prasannasimha
Forum Moderator
Posts: 1207
Joined: 15 Aug 2016 00:22

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby prasannasimha » 06 Oct 2020 22:16

This is just as a demo and actual deployment can be mobile. This is just for coastal deployment. Even south Lakshadweep is enough instead of Maldives

nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8103
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby nachiket » 06 Oct 2020 22:47

Larry Walker wrote:If you are being pinged - wouldn't trying to outrun generate more noise and help maintain track or is it better idea to go full silent with least noise and hope that track is lost ?

"Pinged" means being hit by an active sonar pulse. Going silent by itself will not help you evade active sonar. It can only work against passive sonar. The reason passive sonar is used so much is because active sonar broadcasts the location of the emitter as well which could be the ship/sub which is the hunter. That can compromise its own safety. But a sonobuoy dropped from an aircraft or a helicopter's dipping sonar is not worried about detection and can use active sonar more freely.

k prasad
BRFite
Posts: 800
Joined: 21 Oct 2007 17:38
Location: Somewhere over the Rainbow
Contact:

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby k prasad » 06 Oct 2020 22:55

^^^ yes, and no. A sub that goes completely dark and sufficiently close to the ocean floor or undersea structures or thermoclines could potentially mask itself in the clutter. You'd need really good sensor fusion of Sonar + Magnetometer + gravimeter to catch the signature of a large metal hull in that clutter. Also, long range detection will require lower sonar frequency which reduces resolution.

There's a major push towards Synthetic Aperture Sonar (SAS) to mitigate this issue somewhat. I don't know what the status of our SAS systems is currently, but I'm sure they're working on it.

dinesha
BRFite
Posts: 1171
Joined: 01 Aug 2004 11:42
Location: Delhi

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby dinesha » 06 Oct 2020 23:16

Govt okays induction of nuke-capable Shaurya missile amid Ladakh standoff
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... NFQuO.html
The Narendra Modi government has quietly approved induction and deployment of 700-km range surface-to-surface supersonic Shaurya strategic missile even as forward movement has been recorded in development of 5,000 km range K-5 submarine-launched ballistic missile. Shaurya is the land version of the submarine-launched BA-05 missile and has been developed by the Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO). The land version was discreetly tested for the final time before induction as part of user trials in Odisha’s Balasore on October 3.


According to top missile experts, Shaurya is a delivery system stored in a composite canister for rapid deployment and minimum interaction with the elements for a long period. The strategic missile flies at a supersonic speed of Mach 7, or 2.4 km per second, at a height of 50 km (within atmosphere) and hits the designated target at Mach 4.

The missile will be soon deployed at locations identified by the Indian Strategic Forces Command under guidance from National Security Council. The missile has a warhead weighing around 160 kg. :?: :?:

While the Modi government’s decision to go for a land version is significant as the missile can be launched by a single vehicle, the DRDO is also making rapid strides in the development of a 5,000 km version of the submarine-launched ballistic missile (SLBM). With a range equivalent to Agni-5 land-based ballistic missile, the K-5 will be deployed on Arihant class of nuclear submarines.


While missile scientists are tight-lipped about the K-5 SLBM, the weapon system is expected to be tested in the next 15 months and then deployed on the 6,000-tonne Arihant class of SSBNs. The second Arihant-class nuclear-powered submarine, INS Arighat, is to be operationalised within the next six months.

The consecutive testing of hypersonic missile (September 7), Shaurya missile (October 3) and supersonic missile assisted release of torpedo (October 5) by DRDO from Balasore are clear signals from the government to the country’s adversary that India will not cow down to any coercion. The 800 km-range subsonic Nirbhay cruise missile will be tested in the next couple of weeks and will be inducted into the Indian Army and Navy. The tactical missile has already been deployed in limited numbers in response to the Chinese build-up in Tibet and Xinjiang.


Coming at a time when India is engaged with a belligerent Chinese Army in Ladakh sector, a senior government official said the testing and deployment of short-range delivery platforms clearly conveys Modi Government’s intention of not backing down to any aggression or cartographical expansion plan of any adversary in the neighbourhood.

Kanson
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3049
Joined: 20 Oct 2006 21:00

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Kanson » 07 Oct 2020 01:07

tsarkar wrote:
Kanson wrote:


Thanks for the update.

I believe you are mistaken.

I was interested in understanding MoD report.

Coming To TAL/Shyena LWT:

DRDO presents no information on the range. And maintains the operational depth as 450 m only.

Whereas Lt. General P.C. Katoch (Retd) here mentions the range as 19 km.


Your belief is wrong. The TAL specifications came from BDL press release when exporting the torpedoes to Myanmar. I quoted the link a few pages ago. And I have personally seen TAL torpedoes during veteran's event years ago. TAL manufacture started in 2001. ALWT will be its successor. So know the difference between TAL (in service) and ALWT (under development) very well.

Good. if you could show similar press release of BDL for the torpedoes supplied to Indian Navy specigfying the range, we may take this to closure.


tsarkar wrote:Also the name Shyena/Shenya is not official - neither NSTL nor DRDO nor IN uses it. Do show me an official publication with the name Shenya.

I responded to your post few pages back, where the link you mentioned as BDL press release referred TAL torpedo as Shyena.

In effect you are contradicting your own statement.

Kanson
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3049
Joined: 20 Oct 2006 21:00

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Kanson » 07 Oct 2020 01:18

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... NFQuO.html

The strategic missile flies at a supersonic speed of Mach 7, or 2.4 km per second, at a height of 50 km (within atmosphere) and hits the designated target at Mach 4 . :?: :?:

The missile will be soon deployed at locations identified by the Indian Strategic Forces Command under guidance from National Security Council. The missile has a warhead weighing around 160 kg. :?: :?:


From here,

In the last phase while moving close to its target, the missile moves at hypersonic speeds, the sources said further.

Kanson
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3049
Joined: 20 Oct 2006 21:00

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Kanson » 07 Oct 2020 01:42

Nilanjan wrote:Effectiveness of asbm doubtfull...why not design a bigger brahmos like missile!! Probably hstdv based missile will have that type of range..

You should know that success of any weapon system above 60 % is considered effective.
Here effectiveness is defined in denying the space for carrier borne operations closer to your place of interest.

It doesnt matter whether you use Asbm or brahmos or hstdv, as part of Anti Access/ Area Denial strategy, if we you could deny them space to come closer and mount an operation against you, your weapon system is effective.

Larry Walker
BRFite
Posts: 319
Joined: 26 Nov 2019 17:33

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Larry Walker » 07 Oct 2020 02:36

I beleive SMART is more effective when used against surface targets then against submarines. Imagine a P8I loaded with AShM locates a PLAN surface asset. To maximise chances of hitting it, it will co-ordinate a SMART attack and time the release of its missile so as to complicate the enemies counter-measures and make evasion much more difficult. Another use can be when PLAN has blown a hole in IN's defense and has made a run for the coast, then saturate it's proximate area with torpedoes and mines without risking any more of your assets.

Avarachan
BRFite
Posts: 560
Joined: 04 Jul 2006 21:06

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Avarachan » 07 Oct 2020 04:25

sudeepj wrote:[SMART] is an entirely new system and can be used in innovative ways to develop entirely new tactics and platforms. For example, we used to have some corvettes for anti submarine warfare and usually they would be deployed in own air cover. The idea was these would be used to persecute any submarines that sneak in close to our own harbors and protect our own coastlines. Now instead of corvettes with their manpower requirement, you can deploy, say dorniers, with the appropriate communication and sona-buoy equipment and a shore based battery of these missile torps and this can obviate the need for this class/role of corvette.

Seahawk does carry its own torps, but they do incur a cost in payload. 4 torpedos mean a payload of more than 1 tonne. Without them, your sensor has either longer range or longer loiter time. We are also acquiring new drone platforms in addition to the Herons that are extremely long endurance (48 hours!) but dont have the same kind of payload capability as say a P8i. So these sensors will now have a potent shooter in the loop as well.

The sub will move, but the missile has mid-course guidance update form the platform. Even if there is no guidance update, what are the quiet speeds of a DE sub? Even if moving at 20knots, and a 10 minute flight time, the sub can move a max distance of 4-5 miles. You can sort this possibility by sending out a spread of 4 missiles.

The Heron drone platform that the IN already operates can be fitted with sonabuoy and Magnetic Anomaly Detector.

Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) is upgrading its capabilities for the maritime arena with anti-submarine capabilities in its marine unmanned aerial systems (UAS). The new capabilities respond to the need arising from the discontinuation of the "Shahaf" manned Sea Scan maritime jet by the Israeli Navy and the growing use of IAI Heron UAS for maritime patrol missions, which created a need in anti-submarine capabilities launched directly from the UAS. The maritime UAS, which carries a range of dedicated payloads, now has two new payloads for submarine detection: the Sonobuoy (acoustic detector) and the MAD (Magnetic Detector).
The Sonobuoy is a small, lightweight innovative sonar float which is hurled out of the UAS with a parachute. Part of the Sonobuoy submerges in the water and part of it remains above water, emitting and receiving acoustics signals in high seas. The findings are transmitted in real-time to the UAS's control post. The MAD is a UAS-mounted device that detects and alerts on submarines through identification of changes in the magnetic flow (metal objects detection). The two detectors complement one another: the Sonobuoy is used for searching a broad areas while the MAD is used to verify that the object is a submarine, including an up-to-date location. The UAS carries several Sonobuoys, which it hurls accurately into the sea whenever the presence of a submarine is suspected.
The use of UAS-mounted anti-submarine means offers significant advantages, including longer stay time (dozens of hours on air), back-transmission of the sonar for many hours, operators who are located on land and can monitor the situation over multiple shift, and most importantly, the absence of risk to human life.

https://www.iai.co.il/iai-presents-new- ... lities-uas

A similar capability is being planned for the MQ9 as well.
https://defense-update.com/20171114_mq9_asw.html
The remote detection and tracking of submerged contacts, such as submarines, was demonstrated using an MQ-9 Predator B Remotely Piloted Aircraft (RPA) during a U.S. Naval exercise on October 12th. The flight test was conducted over the Southern California Offshore Range (SCORE) west of San Clemente Island. General Atomics Aeronautical Systems, Inc. (GA-ASI) participated in this successful demonstration of new maritime patrol capabilities that included anti-submarine warfare. The test demonstrated the ability of medium altitude, long endurance drones such as the MQ-9 Reaper to detect submarines and provide persistent tracking of submerged targets.

On this demonstration, sonobuoys were deployed by U.S. Navy helicopters and acoustic data gathered from the sonobuoys were used to track underwater targets. The data was transmitted to the MQ-9 and processed onboard, then relayed to the MQ-9’s Ground Control Station (GCS) several hundred miles away from the target area.


Thank you for this very interesting post.

Avarachan
BRFite
Posts: 560
Joined: 04 Jul 2006 21:06

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Avarachan » 07 Oct 2020 07:17

I suspect that the supersonic missile in the SMART system is a modified BrahMos, rather than a Shaurya. I have no definitive proof for this, but the speed of the development, the weight of the torpedo, the two-way datalink, the range of the BrahMos in a high-high profile, the way the BrahMos is integrated into the assets of the Indian military--I think they all point to a modified BrahMos being used.

The implications of this are staggering. This, combined with long-endurance sonobuoys and drones, really does revolutionize anti-submarine warfare. And India is the first country in the world with this! Amazing!

nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8103
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby nachiket » 07 Oct 2020 07:21

The video released for the test clearly shows it is not a Brahmos derivative.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54825
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ramana » 07 Oct 2020 10:13

wish people stick to facts and not their own projections!

viewtopic.php?p=2464289#p2464289

2018 MoD presentation lists SMART.

pankajs
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14734
Joined: 13 Aug 2009 20:56

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby pankajs » 07 Oct 2020 10:33

People's desire to immediately see SMART on all Indian frontline Warships as option that could just be dropped into the installed Brahmos launcher is what is driving this Brahmoization of SMART.

Shaurya derived missile would mean modification, testing, cost & delay.

John
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2509
Joined: 03 Feb 2001 12:31

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby John » 07 Oct 2020 10:40

pankajs wrote:People's desire to immediately see SMART on all Indian frontline Warships as option that could just be dropped into the installed Brahmos launcher is what is driving this Brahmoization of SMART.

Shaurya derived missile would mean modification, testing, cost & delay.

There is no such thing Brahmos launcher in ships there is the L&T UVLS which is used for Brahmos. It is Universal VLS, which can fire any canisterized missile that can fit in it. Shaurya is too big to fit in it hence the hope that it is more similar in dimension to Nirbhay or Brahmos.

pankajs
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14734
Joined: 13 Aug 2009 20:56

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby pankajs » 07 Oct 2020 10:47

John wrote:
pankajs wrote:People's desire to immediately see SMART on all Indian frontline Warships as option that could just be dropped into the installed Brahmos launcher is what is driving this Brahmoization of SMART.

Shaurya derived missile would mean modification, testing, cost & delay.

There is no such thing Brahmos launcher in ships there is the L&T UVLS which is used for Brahmos. It is Universal VLS, which can fire any canisterized missile that can fit in it. Shaurya is too big to fit in it hence the hope that it is more similar in dimension to Nirbhay or Brahmos.

I may not have been accurate on the details but this is what I too had written. Hope of immediate deployment on frontline Warships as a drop-in.

hnair
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4000
Joined: 03 May 2006 01:31
Location: Trivandrum

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby hnair » 07 Oct 2020 11:37

Geez.... this is getting tricky to follow! DRDO seem to have a family of common missile frames, which can be repurposed quickly and in some cases, the dimension seem altered to fit a mission:
1) Agni III frame (Agni series, derived into ASAT/Mid-course exo-interceptor first and second stages)
2) Shaurya frame (shaurya , K15 and derived into SMART)
3) PDV (PDV and derived into Pralay SSM)
4) AAD frame (AAD endo-interceptor and derived into prahar SSM)

Shaurya seem to be the unsaid 800 lb guerilla: carrier killer, a capability that India never talks about, unlike cheen. From the shore or from an Arihant class (where it neatly fits into K15 tubes), it can take out a CVN class full on carrier. Pure conjecture: maybe it remained at a TD stage, as a CBM to help khan decide on selling their P8I for Cheen-hunting? There was never a need for that missile, except against khan, since brahmos capability (even in a salvo mode) got increasingly compromised by khan's advancing AAW capability.

Anyways, if it is indeed the Shaurya airframe, SMART missile seem to have been repurposed from anti-CV to anti-SSN/BN/GN role. But it is one expensive missile to be build by dozens and so will be more of a mission-complicator for cheen sub-force, by its very existence than for shore defense kind of roles discussed above. This missile makes every anti-sub sensor of Indian military into a nightmare for a sub captain: you never know if that little drone you once cheekily waved at, is capable of calling in this bad boy within minutes

k prasad
BRFite
Posts: 800
Joined: 21 Oct 2007 17:38
Location: Somewhere over the Rainbow
Contact:

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby k prasad » 07 Oct 2020 13:25

Shaurya seem to be the unsaid 800 lb guerilla: carrier killer, a capability that India never talks about, unlike cheen.


We have never talked about it because (a) it isn't completely ready yet, and (b) we have never needed to publicize it... Till now.

The reason a country publicized it's military capabilities is, somewhat counter-intuitively, so that it won't have to use them, i.e. deterrence. Remember those huge military parades in Red Square, or the fancy documentaries from US about their fancy aircraft? Well, guess which programs were kept secret - the F-117, the B-2, the Mig-25, etc.... Programs whose valley lies not in their deterrence, but in their combat use.

China touts it's carrier killer because it needs to deter any possible US deployment in the South China Sea. Till now, China hadn't had neither the carrier force nor significant blue water threats in the IOR, and we don't have any other adversaries with similar capabilities. So even if we had the capability, no need to show it. Now that China is trying to flex its naval muscle, we'll start seeing more news about such projects, Just as we are starting to see more missile rattling in the past few months.

tsarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3263
Joined: 08 May 2006 13:44
Location: mumbai

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby tsarkar » 07 Oct 2020 13:44

Kanson wrote:Good. if you could show similar press release of BDL for the torpedoes supplied to Indian Navy specigfying the range, we may take this to closure.

Please do your own research.

<<self deleted after one hour as my point was made and I had no further need to disclose my personal information>>

Kanson wrote:
tsarkar wrote:Also the name Shyena/Shenya is not official - neither NSTL nor DRDO nor IN uses it. Do show me an official publication with the name Shenya.

I responded to your post few pages back, where the link you mentioned as BDL press release referred TAL torpedo as Shyena. In effect you are contradicting your own statement.

There is no contradiction. You need to understand and interpret the facts.

The site publishing the news is navyrecognition. They use data and photo from BDL provided press release. However they probably picked the name from the internet. And even got the spelling wrong.

https://www.navyrecognition.com/index.p ... -navy.html

Since you claim to know better, do explain the following. What does Shyena mean?
Last edited by tsarkar on 08 Oct 2020 01:48, edited 5 times in total.

tsarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3263
Joined: 08 May 2006 13:44
Location: mumbai

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby tsarkar » 07 Oct 2020 13:58

From the IAF video, here are screenshots of NGARM on a trapeze launcher

Image
https://photos.app.goo.gl/qfgbmhFTiSMUhhfHA

Image
https://photos.app.goo.gl/1Ge2cNSkomzavQwf7

Image
https://photos.app.goo.gl/k2JAtGjqjELeubXw9

Image
https://photos.app.goo.gl/PauobPha53o9RfKi9

Most missiles use rail launchers (R-73E, Astra) or drop launch (BrahMos). Why is a trapeze launcher important? This enables fuselage hardpoints to launch missiles with sufficient clearance from the fuselage.

Even more important, this enables weapons carriage for Low Observable aircraft like AMCA inside weapons bays. During weapon employment, the weapons bay door will open and the trapeze launcher will deploy the missile outside the fuselage.

This is what the F-22 uses
Image

So when one needs an indicator of progression of projects like AMCA or Ghatak, the development of a trapeze launcher shows the progress made.

tsarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3263
Joined: 08 May 2006 13:44
Location: mumbai

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby tsarkar » 07 Oct 2020 15:55

Historically the Su-30MKI were armed with Russian OFAB 250 bombs
https://photos.app.goo.gl/2KHJgXR8bUt2u3a4A

The OFAB 250 bombs have been replaced with more modern HSLD bombs
https://photos.app.goo.gl/rGjvGQdfwPNQi9oG8

SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 24189
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby SSridhar » 07 Oct 2020 17:43

We do not need to always think that we would use SMART only in IOR. We may have to use it in Indo-China Sea too. I would be happy to see its use there.


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: anupamd, Avinash Rav, Cain Marko, kvraghav, Shakthi and 53 guests