Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

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Prem Kumar
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Prem Kumar » 12 Oct 2020 15:01

Though I am not a fan of the ADE, if the Nirbhay test failed because we rushed with the testing, I look at that as a positive. It means that the labs are working on a war-footing!

Our too-cautious & must-never-fail approach was one of the reasons why the Tejas took as long as it did.

Failure with a new engine means that we are pushing the envelope

Hemant Rout has good insider contacts. If he says that the engine had not cleared ground tests, its probably true

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby darshhan » 12 Oct 2020 15:12

Prem Kumar wrote:Though I am not a fan of the ADE, if the Nirbhay test failed because we rushed with the testing, I look at that as a positive. It means that the labs are working on a war-footing!

Our too-cautious & must-never-fail approach was one of the reasons why the Tejas took as long as it did.

Failure with a new engine means that we are pushing the envelope

Hemant Rout has good insider contacts. If he says that the engine had not cleared ground tests, its probably true


Yup. I would stand by Hemant Rout. Most probably team was under pressure to deliver and hence bypassed the required ground tests.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby sum » 12 Oct 2020 15:16

So, this was test with Manik engine?

Did not clear ground tests means Manik series itself hasnt yet cleared any ground tests or this particular model hadn't been and was just rushed in straight from the line?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby darshhan » 12 Oct 2020 15:21

nam wrote:I will wait for proper details to come up. It is possible the engine failed, which is perfectly normal for a first time flight.

However this "not cleared ground test" is someone pushing away the blame. ADE was planning to test out Nirbhay with Manik this year. So it was a planned test, not a random try after the Chinese came.

Not a big deal. We will fix the engine and try again.


Hemant Rout is the gold standard for DRDO missile program reporting. He might or might not be technically astute but his sources inside DRDO are really good. If he says something, one should atleast consider it without bias. And there is no surprise in what he has tweeted. We are in a high stress almost war like situation wrt China. All DRDO teams would have been put on notice to expedite their projects. From that viewpoint this was an acceptable risk on part of ADE. Full support to them for taking risk. Sooner or later they will figure out the engine part too.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby thammu » 12 Oct 2020 15:29

I too agree with the general view. It's better to test fast and furious and fail here and there, rather than go for a slow fail safe testing mode.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Raghunathgb » 12 Oct 2020 17:47

After every failed nirbhay test we hear the same thing of repeating the test in few months only to see it after a year and half. Hope it is not the case this time.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby kirpalbasra » 12 Oct 2020 19:03

Why do the Indians give all ways give results of test and why make a big noise about conducting a test.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby JTull » 12 Oct 2020 20:11

kirpalbasra wrote:Why do the Indians give all ways give results of test and why make a big noise about conducting a test.


Failure of one test just gave credibility to the success of all others that have taken place in last month.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby pankajs » 12 Oct 2020 20:24

One either conducts a test in secret or one give a factual account of the results of an announced test. The falsification of results of a declared test will create doubt about earlier successful tests and tarnish the image of the project/Lab/DRDO/GoI.

My guess is that DRDO would have been fairly confident about the test. Failure, while disheartening, is part of the process.

The fault as I see is in the slow progress at the MoD side on project sanctions/funding/induction followed by demand for fast results during a crisis. The bunched up testing tells us that most of the current lot were unplanned tests.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby hnair » 12 Oct 2020 20:33

That “did not clear ground tests” seem a CYA type weasel statement. Later, after a few departmental slapfests, same “source” can claim to News Router that s/he meant “not all ground tests are yet over”. But then so is Nag family ATGMs or even Brahmos

No sensitive department in India is going to approve a few crores of money being wasted on such tests, when they know an inquiry will be imminent.

It would have been more clearer and much different if “sources” had said “failed ground tests”.

This is a new engine that has been tested for sometime in test rigs. But it could never be tested properly on air due to lack of test beds. Probably the pins for its FADEC etc might have come off like that PSLV launch due to vibrations or some software glitches caused a shutdown. Might not be lack of power etc, in a first test, since engine power won’t be in an optimized mode.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ramana » 12 Oct 2020 20:50

nam, So this Nirbhay test is with new STFE engine right?
The PTA engine version is proven.

Let them do root cause.
Engine failure is one cause.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Kakarat » 12 Oct 2020 21:05

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1315653078499033089
Today’s Nirbhay cruise missile test was with the @DRDO_India/GTRE small turbofan engine (STFE) replacing the UEC/NPO 36MT turbofan that powered all previous tests. The missile has been recovered. Analysis underway on engine and guidance system performance.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Indranil » 12 Oct 2020 21:06

JTull wrote:
kirpalbasra wrote:Why do the Indians give all ways give results of test and why make a big noise about conducting a test.


Failure of one test just gave credibility to the success of all others that have taken place in last month.

Exactly my sentiment!

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby darshhan » 12 Oct 2020 21:12

hnair wrote:That “did not clear ground tests” seem a CYA type weasel statement. Later, after a few departmental slapfests, same “source” can claim to News Router that s/he meant “not all ground tests are yet over”. But then so is Nag family ATGMs or even Brahmos

No sensitive department in India is going to approve a few crores of money being wasted on such tests, when they know an inquiry will be imminent.

It would have been more clearer and much different if “sources” had said “failed ground tests”.

This is a new engine that has been tested for sometime in test rigs. But it could never be tested properly on air due to lack of test beds. Probably the pins for its FADEC etc might have come off like that PSLV launch due to vibrations or some software glitches caused a shutdown. Might not be lack of power etc, in a first test, since engine power won’t be in an optimized mode.


You have a point. But then Rout never made a direct allegation of an engine failure. He just made an insinuation of an engine failure by stating that ground tests were not completed. That too he put in quotes. So the reader is free to reach his own conclusions or wait for official enquiry to be completed.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby nam » 12 Oct 2020 21:26

Apparently PTAE-7 gives 3.7KN, while the Russi turbofan is 4.4KN. So push comes to shove, we have PTAE-7. May be we have deployed some of PTAE-7 versions...

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ramana » 12 Oct 2020 22:29

nam wrote:Apparently PTAE-7 gives 3.7KN, while the Russi turbofan is 4.4KN. So push comes to shove, we have PTAE-7. May be we have deployed some of PTAE-7 versions...



My understanding too. Hence the lesser range than the turbofan version.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby arvin » 12 Oct 2020 23:19

hnair wrote:
This is a new engine that has been tested for sometime in test rigs. But it could never be tested properly on air due to lack of test beds.

With multiple jet and aero programs like manik\AMCA, high time we got a test bed.
Acquiring one is just a pen push away , i.e transfer one 747-400 from Air India to DRDO. All the 4 747 of AI are under govt ownership and won't be sold outside. Wiser after USAF converted one of older AI 747 into laser test bed.
AEROTEC is converting an older Qantas 747 into a test bed for RR to be delivered by 2021. If we start now we can have one in 2 years by 2022.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby nam » 12 Oct 2020 23:40

There might be PTAE-7 version of Nirbhay deployed. If these were user tested in Rajasthan desert, it won't be public. After all Nirbhay flies on wavepoints.

Because of the lower thrust, it won't fly higher(?), hence the lower range. Ofcourse, lower fuel efficiency compared to a turbofan.

The peculiar thing is we tested a local engine version. if a half baked version was deployed, we would have been carrying more user test. Not test with a new engine.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby pankajs » 13 Oct 2020 02:01

https://www.iiss.org/blogs/military-bal ... os-missile
India’s Brahmos missile: an added target in the air?
Alexander Maksichev, the co-director of Russo-Indian company Brahmos Aerospace, which produces the Brahmos missile, is reported in the Russian press as saying a variant of the missile designed to engage airborne early-warning and control (AEW&C) aircraft would be ready by 2024.

....
Alongside the original Brahmos airframe, an updated, smaller version known as Brahmos-NG or Brahmos-M has also been proposed. One option could be also to use the Brahmos-NG development as the basis for an AAM intended to engage a high-value, low-density target set such as AEW&C and tanker aircraft. India’s interest in this class of weapon may be being spurred in part by increasing numbers of AEW&C aircraft in China’s People’s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF), and also in part by the PLAAF’s pursuit of a similar class of weapon.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby pankajs » 13 Oct 2020 03:04

pankajs wrote:
Neela wrote:A stupid question.
If 650 km is range, how do ships get the info ?

Possible with a an integrated Information & command center. GOI does have such a center. Not sure what it is called and not sure if we have integrated our reconnaissance and command centers enough to pull it off.

A P-8I spots a submarine 400 km off the Indian coast or a ship and relays the co-ordinate back to the Indian Navy command center. The center then direct the SMART weapon to be launched at the exact co-ordinate pronto.

Any co-ordinate deviation from the sighting to shooting will be managed by the torpedo during the end game.

pankajs wrote:
sanjaykumar wrote:The SMART torpedo deployment presupposes detection and ranging abilities. It reveals perhaps that Indian systems are robust, whatever they are; SOSUS, magnetic anomaly detection, ?space based laser sea-level changes from submerged submarines.

Even if the ability is not available currently, it shows the intent & determination to acquire the capability.

https://saluteindia.org/military-modern ... air-force/
MILITARY MODERNISATION: INDIAN AIR FORC {Air Marshal R. Nambiar | Written from an IAF pov but check what he has written about building a nationwide & seamless master network}
The IACCS network which functions on the AFNet is a ground plane, consisting of fibre optics, satellites and multiple other sources, which integrates all our Air Defence Systems in one grid. It is, therefore, possible today, for an aircraft which is flying over Leh to be controlled from Delhi. This is the capability we have built up over the last ten years. The entire grid is operational in the Western border and we are in the process of rolling out the Eastern grid and along with the Southern sector in the next three months. This is a major achievement, which makes sure that all our assets work in synergy with each other. We intend to integrate this master network along with the Army’s Air Defence Control and Reporting System (Akash Teer) and the Navy’s Trigun network to form a seamless master network, which will fully integrate the full spectrum of air operations by any of the forces. This will ensure that fratricide cases do not occur and that any intruder into our area of operations or into our area of interest is picked up and suitably addressed.

If sub hunting sensors are integrate on the same network the SMART operators at the command center will have a birds view of the target area and be able to co-ordinate a safe corridor for the SMART to hunting up to 650 kms from the shore.

Plus the SMART will not be a seeker driven missile that will latch on to the nearest plane or ship based on some signature but rather a co-ordinate driven one that will inject the torp into the kill zone provided no plane or ship get in its path.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby pankajs » 13 Oct 2020 03:19

^^ Another excerpt form the above source ..

We are in the development stage of the Pralaya guided short-range (400 km) tactical ballistic missile for battlefield use developed by DRDO. Also developed for the IAF are the precision-guided munitions (PGMs) Garuthmaa and Garuda. An air-launched anti-tank missile has been developed called SANT (Standoff Anti Tank) which will have multi-platform launch capability and can be launched from attack helicopters. Other weapons developed are the SAAW (Smart Anti Airfield Weapon), Dhruv Astra an anti-surface missile and a new generation anti-radiation missile—the Rudram-1. We also have the Rudram-2 and Rudram-3 missiles which are variants of the Rudram-1 with different functions for ground attack.

Seems like whether we call then Rudra M-1, Rudra M-2 and Rudra M-3 or Rudram-1, Rudram-2 and Rudram-3, they are missiles of the same series/family/lineage, each optimized for "different functions for ground attack".

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 13 Oct 2020 04:44

Rudram-1 (NGARM), Rudram-2, Rudram-2A, Rudram- 3.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby VikramS » 13 Oct 2020 11:55

I am glad that they are rushing things out faster. As long as the test missiles are properly instrumented even a few minutes of flight provide truly valuable input and validate various sub-systems.

Trying to create the perfect system with 99% success probability takes much longer than one with 90% success probability.

More importantly it is a signal that it is OK to fail, as long as you fail fast, and move on.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby rsingh » 13 Oct 2020 18:21

kirpalbasra wrote:Why do the Indians give all ways give results of test and why make a big noise about conducting a test.


Because we can :mrgreen:

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby juvva » 13 Oct 2020 21:08

kirpalbasra wrote:Why do the Indians give all ways give results of test and why make a big noise about conducting a test.


do we? i am not sure any one outside forums like brf, knows about the test/failure and cares about it.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Rakesh » 13 Oct 2020 21:20

kirpalbasra wrote:Why do the Indians give all ways give results of test and why make a big noise about conducting a test.

Because that is how it works :) You celebrate your successes and study your failures. Why the takleef/worry?

Why hide behind a curtain, when it serves no purpose? No one in the know is revealing anything classified. So announce every test, whether successful or a failure. But the enemy should be aware of what could potentially come up their musharraf, in case the balloon goes up.

China and Pak only understand the danda. Best to show them what that danda is capable of doing.

juvva wrote:do we? i am not sure any one outside forums like brf, knows about the test/failure and cares about it.

You would be surprised of how much the aam janta is aware and social media plays a big role in it. India is one of the largest mobile phone users in the world with access to a variety of social apps like twitter, instagram, the now banned tik tok, etc.

Promote all indigenous products. Promote them at every opportunity. Promote them on every platform available. Change the mindset among the aam junta, especially the youth. That is the only path forward.

You can kill a person, but it is impossible to kill an idea. Let the wheel of indigenization move at full steam ahead.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ramana » 14 Oct 2020 00:27

Due to limited number of tests it gives credibility to the testing process.

So its a good thing to acknowledge issues.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby JTull » 14 Oct 2020 01:33

ramana wrote:Due to limited number of tests it gives credibility to the testing process.

So its a good thing to acknowledge issues.


And, we do hide tests whenever it suits us.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ramana » 14 Oct 2020 04:49

JTull wrote:
ramana wrote:Due to limited number of tests it gives credibility to the testing process.

So its a good thing to acknowledge issues.


And, we do hide tests whenever it suits us.


What is pinching you?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ramana » 14 Oct 2020 04:50

You think the new USAF fighter plane just appeared out of no where?

Doesn't India deserve to keep its secrets or has to reveal for fanbois?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Philip » 14 Oct 2020 10:16

Regarding Nirbhaya,the proven Ru engine must be utilised for a first tranche of accelerated missile production,so that the forces are equipped with adequate numbers reqd. ,especially in the current context. The testing of the new DRDO engine can continue without any delays,and once perfected could replace the imported one. Neither production nor incremental development must suffer while we are at war with China.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Raghunathgb » 14 Oct 2020 11:43

ramana wrote:
JTull wrote:
And, we do hide tests whenever it suits us.


What is pinching you?


More than suiting us, I think navy has been quite secretive about its business with missiles. Especially the K series missiles. The information of test conducted by other two armed services are available easily compared to Navy.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby kirpalbasra » 14 Oct 2020 12:59

ramana wrote:You think the new USAF fighter plane just appeared out of no where?

Doesn't India deserve to keep its secrets or has to reveal for fanbois?


Yes totally agree. I would personally prefer that that imformation given after the test or before say ( Indian defence forces test new engine for its cruise missle and leave it at that..

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby JTull » 14 Oct 2020 13:31

ramana wrote:
JTull wrote:
And, we do hide tests whenever it suits us.


What is pinching you?


Er, nothing!

I meant that we don't declare all our tests. First few K-4 tests weren't announced! I'm sure every carriage, drop and firing tests of air-launched weapons like Astra, Brahmos, NGARM, SAAW haven't made it to the press. This time we wanted to make a statement with high-tempo testing, so we're doing it. We also need to keep desi media naysayers fed with occasional failures. Otherwise, who'll we use to feed their Chinese patrons some "insider info"?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Neela » 15 Oct 2020 01:51

ramana wrote:Due to limited number of tests it gives credibility to the testing process.

So its a good thing to acknowledge issues.


Picking a missile *from the Army inventory* and testing it has a very powerful meaning.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby pankajs » 16 Oct 2020 02:06

https://twitter.com/Amitraaz/status/1316631937897820161
The 55-km range helicopter launched Naval Anti-Ship Missile (NASM-SR)...
  • Primarily for Seakings and MH-60Rs.
  • Terminal IIR-Seeker with Slid Rocket motor.
  • 0.8Mach.
  • Its longer-range version is also in the plans.
Image

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Anujan » 16 Oct 2020 03:14

There was a vayu article about this and other missiles some time back:

https://www.vayuaerospace.in/article/53 ... p-missiles

India's indigenous anti-ship missiles


for the Indian Navy’s IMRH acquisition, MBDA has pitched its Sea Venom which has a range of 25 km and also the Marte ER which can reach more than 100 km. The NASM SR could certainly be considered for these potent platforms. The long range version of the NASM SR will have a range excess of 150 km, enabling engagement of hostile targets from stand-off distances. At the DRDO stand during Aero India 2019 were several posters of a one-tonne class medium range air launched cruise missile. Not much else was revealed about this unnamed stealth missile but seems this will have a low RCS body to avoid radar detection.
.....
The Varunastra is described as a long range anti-ship missile with cruising speed of 850 kmph. This low cost relatively light weight missile is being developed for neutralising smaller ships as a ‘cost effective solution’. The missile weighs 225 kg, has a 108 kg penetrator and blast fragmentation warhead. The missile has very low RCS and a designed range in excess of 270 km. The Vel is another low RCS platform being developed, a light cruise missile which weighs about 200 kg and can achieve speeds in excess of 270 km for employment against surface targets


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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Prem Kumar » 16 Oct 2020 13:00

Much-needed boost, but some of these specs seem completely off:

A 55Km range missile weighting 380Kg but a 270 Km range missile has a 200Kg weight. Even if we assume that the warheads are of different classes, these numbers seem very odd

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby lakshmanM » 16 Oct 2020 13:30

Prem Kumar wrote:Much-needed boost, but some of these specs seem completely off:

A 55Km range missile weighting 380Kg but a 270 Km range missile has a 200Kg weight. Even if we assume that the warheads are of different classes, these numbers seem very odd

Puhlease, look at the typical flight altitude and separation velocity of both missiles.
Subsonic, sea-skimming missile, released from a slow platform vs high altitude, supersonic missile, released from a fast aircraft

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Pratyush » 16 Oct 2020 15:50

pankajs wrote:https://twitter.com/Amitraaz/status/1316631937897820161
The 55-km range helicopter launched Naval Anti-Ship Missile (NASM-SR)...
  • Primarily for Seakings and MH-60Rs.
  • Terminal IIR-Seeker with Slid Rocket motor.
  • 0.8Mach.
  • Its longer-range version is also in the plans.
Image


Has all the hall marks of a being the foundation stone for a powered glide weapon for anti armour applications will a range of upto 150 kms. Using the SAAW airframe, the data link, a small booster, the IIR seekers.


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