Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby LakshmanPST » 08 Jan 2021 13:15

jamwal wrote:
Though the range of BrahMos is now being extended to over 400-km, with India and Russia even planning to test an 800-km variant this year, the export version will be the 290-km one. “This is due to the Missile Technology Control Regime (prevents proliferation of missiles over 300-km range) and some other issues,” said the source.


https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 151155.cms

If the interested country is a member of MTCR, then India can export 300+ km ranged missiles too, right?


I think we can't sell missiles beyond 300km range to non-MTCR countries...

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby jamwal » 08 Jan 2021 15:11

That's what I wrote and meant sir. Only MTCR compliant countries

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Haridas » 09 Jan 2021 02:46

LakshmanPST wrote:
jamwal wrote:
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 151155.cms

If the interested country is a member of MTCR, then India can export 300+ km ranged missiles too, right?


I think we can't sell missiles beyond 300km range to non-MTCR countries...


Incorrect IMHO.
MTCR obligation prevents export of missile with >300 km range AND > 300 kg warhead. Brahmos does not cross the second condition.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby LakshmanPST » 09 Jan 2021 03:16

jamwal wrote:That's what I wrote and meant sir. Only MTCR compliant countries


I misread your sentence... Apologies...

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby mody » 13 Jan 2021 15:52

mody wrote:
John wrote:Russia offers guided missiles and they reach 90 km you aren’t going to get more than what they have achieved. Plus I doubt the Russians would be willing to supply just the launchers any deal would involve rockets and comes with all the political baggage like restrictions on using domestic missiles apart from licensed production.

Considering we already have Pinaka which is lot cheaper why bother. We can scale up and develop a variant that uses 300mm missiles.


We have achieved 75 Kms with 216 mm rockets and this too is likely to increase to about 80-85 Kms. Achieving 120-125 Kms with 300 mm rockets, which are also longer should definitely be possible.
This would put some of the paki airbases and major military targets easily within reach. Being able to pepper paki airbases from within our own territory, with precision guided rockets, which are much cheaper than ballistic missiles, does have value. The other option would be the Prahaar missiles.
The Smerch rockets weigh around 800-900 Kgs with a 240 Kg warhead. The warhead weight for Pinaka is 100 Kgs. For Prahaar the missile diameter is 420 mm, with a 200-500 Kgs warhead and a total weight of 1,240 Kgs. The length of Smerch rockets and Prahaar is almost the same.
The advantage with Smerch is that its a 12 tube system and can fire in salvo mode. A regiment of 12 launchers can lay down a lot of firepower.
If we have domestically produced rockets, then the cost will definitely be much lower. We are already producing BM-21 rockets locally and these have enhanced range, better accuracy and are cheaper than Russian rockets.
The key would be for India to negotiate a contract with the Russian's that allows India to use its own rockets in the future. The initial order of the launchers can be placed with a token order of say 2-3 reload worth of rockets. If the Russian's don't agree, shelve the proposal.

As it is over the next 10 years, India will buy less and less of Russian military hardware and will increasingly also emerge as a potential competitor to Russia, in the International arms market. A case in point being Indian offer of Astra missiles for Vietnam's Su-27/30 aircrafts. These would be in place of Russian R-77 missiles and if such a sale were to actually go through (not that I expect that it will), Russia would certainly be displeased.

We negotiated for possibility of Indian weapons to be integrated on the Rafael with the French and finally for the govt. to govt. deal they relented. Now, with India's capabilities increasing, the writing is on the wall for all nations wanting to supply weapons systems to India. Be ready to give the best and also customize and also some level of local production or support in other spheres for any sale to be possible.
Russia increasingly doesn't have anything cutting edge to offer to India, as specially in the conventional weapons space.


I wrote about developing guided extended range rockets for the Smerch system last month and almost on cue, the pakis have annouced that they have developed (repainted Chinese supplied rockets) a guided rocket for the Chinese copy of the Smerch!! The claimed range is 140 Kms, similar to what I was proposing.
Aparently we are already making the rockets for Smerch, as per Wiki, maybe through ToT. DRDO can take up the project along with Solar industries to develop guided rockets for the Smerch. A range of 120-140 Kms would be rally handy. With a 240 Kg warhead, the 12 tube system can lay down some serious firepower. If it can achieve good accuracy like being reported for the guided Pinaka rockets, it would fit in nicely between the Pinaka and the upcoming Prahaar/Pranash systems.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Haridas » 14 Jan 2021 15:17

mody wrote:I wrote about developing guided extended range rockets for the Smerch system last month and almost on cue, the pakis have annouced that they have developed (repainted Chinese supplied rockets) a guided rocket for the Chinese copy of the Smerch!! The claimed range is 140 Kms, similar to what I was proposing.
Aparently we are already making the rockets for Smerch, as per Wiki, maybe through ToT. DRDO can take up the project along with Solar industries to develop guided rockets for the Smerch. A range of 120-140 Kms would be rally handy. With a 240 Kg warhead, the 12 tube system can lay down some serious firepower. If it can achieve good accuracy like being reported for the guided Pinaka rockets, it would fit in nicely between the Pinaka and the upcoming Prahaar/Pranash systems.


Saar, dheeraj rakhain, gloves are off and butts being kicked.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Haridas » 14 Jan 2021 15:22

I will not be surprised of a Pinaak form factor Shourya. Imagine the range & payload :shock:

And mother's care precision.

Density & cost versus accuracy is mouth watering jalebee.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Rakesh » 14 Jan 2021 22:11

https://twitter.com/strategic_front/sta ... 16768?s=20 ---> The VL-SRSAM's cannisters feature an umbilical retraction mechanism which can twist 10 deg for easier unloading & reloading of the cannisters in the cramped space of a VL module. Additionally, frames have also been designed for easy & safe transport & storage of the missiles.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Rakesh » 14 Jan 2021 22:15

Folks, kindly provide your feedback below. Thanks.

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/134 ... 29859?s=20 ---> JUST IN: @ThalesGroup & India's @BDL_India sign pact on STARStreak air defence system. Under terms, BDL to offer STARStreak to Indian Army/IAF to plug urgent air defence gaps, with 60% of the system manufactured in India.

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 07776?s=20 ---> Thales which is offering STARStreak to Indian Army in cooperation with BDL says it's system is superior to all competitors and that the Strarstreak missile has three laser-guided darts that cannot be jammed by any known counter-measure and can also engage very low RCS targets.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby chetak » 14 Jan 2021 22:30

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Rakesh » 15 Jan 2021 00:32

https://twitter.com/KesariDhwaj/status/ ... 33474?s=20 --->

- WVR or CCM Astra version under development and to be used on Tejas Mk1A
- AESA based jammer
- Myriad of air-to-ground weapons

@MjaVinod with some great details associated with Tejas Mk1A order. Please do listen.

***VIDEO*** https://twitter.com/CNNnews18/status/13 ... 29638?s=20

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby arvin » 15 Jan 2021 00:33

Rakesh wrote:Folks, kindly provide your feedback below. Thanks.

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 07776?s=20 ---> Thales which is offering STARStreak to Indian Army in cooperation with BDL says it's system is superior to all competitors and that the Strarstreak missile has three laser-guided darts that cannot be jammed by any known counter-measure and can also engage very low RCS targets.


Why add one more type of air defence that also imported.?
MANPADS and 20/30mm guns are sufficient for air defence for upto 7km range.
Has only been sold to 5 to 6 countries going by wiki page.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby hnair » 15 Jan 2021 03:10

The Starstreak is a 1980s system originally from Shorts Belfast, that was splashed across pages of magazines from that era. No known wartime usage seem to be available nor its effectiveness. Claims of counter measures etc not available is made by all beam riding type missiles, including the paki’s RBS70 from bofors. Added recently is the claim that it can take on Vlo, because it doesn’t depend on RF or IR for target acquisition. But keeping the beam track and not losing the laser lock is something else. Particularly since the three darts are unpowered after getting boosted to high speeds. However if it’s later models does not ride beam but uses an optical device to track the laser designation, then it is prone to DIRCM and dazzlers.

Its usage in war is not exactly catalogued well, unlike stingers and Russian equivalents. What is with the world wanting to dump 1980s on India nowadays? First it was f21, then panther helicopter and now this.
Last edited by hnair on 15 Jan 2021 03:31, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Edited

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Srutayus » 15 Jan 2021 03:14

The Starstreak is a 1980s system originally from Shorts Belfast, that was splashed across pages of magazines from that era. No known wartime usage seem to be available nor its effectiveness. Claims of counter measures etc not available is made by all bean riding type missiles, including the paki’s RBS70 from bofors. But keeping the beam track and not losing the laser ride is something else. Particularly since the three darts are unpowered after getting boosted to high speeds. However if it does not ride beam but uses an optical device to track the laser designation, then it is prone to DIRCM and dazzlers.

It has potential to be developed into an anti-UAV swarm system. Depends on the designator to focus on several smaller targets that move more slowly.
But in our PSUs imagination is severely rationed.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby hnair » 15 Jan 2021 03:27

Srutayus,
- a laser designator cannot do simultaneous targeting due to its physical limitation l. You can point at only one thing at a time

- the three darts cannot be separately targeted for a swarm mode. They are penetrators, not explosive (so they can’t take out multiple UAVs in proximity)

Basically for larger individual targets

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby John » 15 Jan 2021 03:34

Best way to counter uav swarm would be to utilize medium caliber gun (40 mm) with air burst.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Srutayus » 15 Jan 2021 09:03

- a laser designator cannot do simultaneous targeting due to its physical limitation l. You can point at only one thing at a time

- the three darts cannot be separately targeted for a swarm mode. They are penetrators, not explosive (so they can’t take out multiple UAVs in proximity)

Basically for larger individual targets


Thanks for the explanation.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Pratyush » 15 Jan 2021 10:35

Rakesh wrote:Folks, kindly provide your feedback below. Thanks.



The answer is no.

A better solution would be to get existing weapons through a service life extension while a 100% domestic option is developed. No more imported solutions. This purchase will be just like every other screw driver assembly done in India. Not add any real value to Indian MIC.

We have all the building blocks in place.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Pratyush » 15 Jan 2021 10:36

John wrote:Best way to counter uav swarm would be to utilize medium caliber gun (40 mm) with air burst.


This is 100% doable with the capacities of the current Indian MIC.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby John » 15 Jan 2021 11:29

^ We could have had that nearly a decade ago with Skyshield but blacklisting killed that program which could replaced Bofors 40mm and Ak-630 guns. The Skyshield system also supported integration of SAM.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby kit » 15 Jan 2021 13:29

John wrote:^ We could have had that nearly a decade ago with Skyshield but blacklisting killed that program which could replaced Bofors 40mm and Ak-630 guns. The Skyshield system also supported integration of SAM.


Indeed, a rapid fire Gun/small missile system would be ideal to take care of UAVs flying at all altitudes., maybe backed by AESA/EO sensors ? What's the altitude to which air burst shells can work ?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Rsatchi » 15 Jan 2021 14:11

^^Noob Pooch?
rapidfire gun/small missile systems have to ground-based/radar assisted(like some CIWS) or can be could be UAV based
Meaning UAV to counter UAV
Also will they be costlier to be airborne!!

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby kit » 15 Jan 2021 15:20

Rsatchi wrote:^^Noob Pooch?
rapidfire gun/small missile systems have to ground-based/radar assisted(like some CIWS) or can be could be UAV based
Meaning UAV to counter UAV
Also will they be costlier to be airborne!!


Indeed and likely limited by weight if we are thinking hard kill systems but "soft" options like a tethered aerostat carrying drone kill jammers can be powered by generators on the ground and have 360 degree coverage to jam and force down any UAV over a large area.

The high flying drones would still escape and would need to be taken care of by SAM systems !

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Haridas » 16 Jan 2021 06:35

John wrote:Best way to counter uav swarm would be to utilize medium caliber gun (40 mm) with air burst.


There is a reason that all UAV are not same sized and capability.
Similarly counter to an offensive UAV has to be properly sized and costed. There is no one size fit all.

1. The best way to counter UAV swarm is to destroy the UAV swarm before it lifts off ground.
2. Flying UAV should be destroyed before it reached a distance from border where they become effective. IMHO that is 10-15 km from most front Indian asset or personnel.
3. Taking down UAV after it has be used for by enemy for it gun alignment, there is not much value except not taking it down now will allow the UAV to return and be used again. So now it is a simply least preferable counter value proposition.
4. Taking down UAV that is homing into our asset is a simply a save your BUTT proposition and abandon your own offensive responsibility. IMHO one is in already sliding into losing proposition.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby disha » 16 Jan 2021 07:10

A counter to UAV/Drones is to have a counter-strike of a swarm of smaller UAVs and drones. Think Locusts. Big and small.

Taking a leaf from aerostat balloons tethered, the same balloons or nesting posts can act as hives for the locusts to recharge and release in say cells of pentagons of 5 km side. This will cover 50 sq km and have multiple posts for the locusts to hive into. This swarm can latch on to any drone which is emitting radiation and does not emit the IFF signals. And gum up that drone. Even the mere act of increasing the weight and making it less aerodynamic stable will reduce that drone's effectiveness. The cells can be used to ringfence critical infrastructure.

The hive posts themselves can be hidden, camouflaged, and can also potentially have underground shelters for the locusts. Just like mosquitoes are attracted to CO2, these locusts are attracted to EM radiation.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Prem Kumar » 16 Jan 2021 11:50

Another option is to think like: rock-paper-scissors.

The counter to a rock is not necessarily another rock, but paper. Perhaps broad-spectrum EMP pulses that fry the electronics, laser dazzlers to blind the EO cameras etc.

One thing evident from the Azerbaijan conflict is that the biggest problem seems to be detection. The drones are too small, fly too low and can hide/pop-up

Drones are clearly going to do an RMA. Imagine a Kargil conflict, but the IA has access to the quad-copter style kamikaze drones that were demo'ed recently. It can be a platoon level weapon. Launch a few that will take care of machine gun nests, get inside bunkers and explode etc. All from a stand-off distance. So many lives can be saved. Won't need the 10:1 ratio when assaulting peaks.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Vinod Ji » 16 Jan 2021 14:37

Prem Kumar wrote:Another option is to think like: rock-paper-scissor

Drones are clearly going to do an RMA. Imagine a Kargil ( KAILASH )conflict, but the IA has access to the quad-copter style kamikaze drones that were demo'ed recently. It can be a platoon level weapon. Launch a few that will take care of machine gun nests, get inside bunkers and explode etc. All from a stand-off distance. So many lives can be saved. Won't need the 10:1 ratio when assaulting peaks.



We need to think antidote soon which ( I believe) drdo is already deep into it..

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ramana » 17 Jan 2021 03:15

One rule of air defence is the solution must cost much less then the threat. Starstreak looks like Rolls-Royce royce to shoot a Fiat and might not bring it down.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby nam » 17 Jan 2021 03:26

Create low cost AESA that can be track such swarm and be distributed to tactical units.

Otherwise have area monitoring radars which can track low rcs uav and netcentric warfare to warn tactical positions of incoming threat. Allow them to take evasive action.

Create 30/40/50MM programmable rounds to air burst against the UAV.

APS for armor, mechanized units, if we want to save the assets.

May be it is possible to create cheap short range vehicle mounted, large volume manpads type missile. Dual pulse manpads 5-10KM?

As mentioned earlier, knock off launching locations, which will generally be within 40-50KM. But this a difficult task. In future the range will be increased and most of them are truck mounted.

Not to mention IIR mounted MBRL rockets... which will even more difficult to crack, without Irondome type of defence. Whatever be the solution, it will be very expensive..

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby brar_w » 17 Jan 2021 06:13

There are innovative ways to reduce cost and share the technology across various applications whether that is UAV defeat, or even cruise missile defeat. Gun based projectiles and adapting offensive weapons and sharing components can get you to reduce cost significantly. Two examples here are the AGR-20A APKWS which is basically a guided Hydra rocket. It has already successfully downed unmanned vehicle in Air to Air scenario and is a candidate for a high-magazine anti-cruise missile loadout for fighters. It can also be adapted for a similar role via a ground launcher. Same thing with the hyper-velocity projectile shooting down a cruise missile from a 155 mm gun. Both are sub $50 K (APKRS is a sub $30 k) solutions and are capable of defeating a threat that is equal or higher cost than them (favorable exchange ratio). Against even lower end threats there are prox fused 30 and 40 mm gun based rounds and full-up guided rounds also in the works. Of course high-power microwaves which many are developing or fielding are that large swarm defeat capable weapons that can be paired with other solutions.

Bottom line is that no single solution is going to be capable of defeating a true "swarm" (not just what gets called a swarm in the media) or a combined attack of swarm drones and other more sophisticated weapons. There needs to be an architecture in place that is paired to a capable command and control solution that is sophisticated enough to assimilate traditional (kinetic) and non-traditional (Directed Energy, and gun based systems) components and optimize the right solution for the right type of threat. Having to survive traditional eletronic attack (mostly ground station link and PNT disruption), survive HPM targeting, and then be smart enough to use swarm tactics to make gun targeting difficult is a major cost imposition on any swarm concept's individual vehicles. This is what ultimately makes the exchange ratio favourable i.e. it forces your opponent to invest in more sophisticated individual swarm elements or to mix them up with higher capability weapons (like cruise missiles and decoys) that add cost and technical complexity. Relying on just a single solution, like a 30 or 40 mm gun, or a laser weapon system is not going to do that. But collectively, they can have a tremendous impact.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Rakesh » 18 Jan 2021 23:21

https://twitter.com/strategic_front/sta ... 14310?s=20 ---> ARCI-Hyderabad is producing Tangent Ogive shaped Silica radomes with 460.8 mm length & 192 mm base diameter & with a wall thickness of 4.572 mm. For comparison, the Astra missile is 178mm in diameter. It is likely to be used in an upcoming SAM (Akash-NG) or AAM (Astra Mk-2).

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Prem Kumar » 23 Jan 2021 15:47

A question on Akash-NG: looks like it has a single-pulse motor and a range that's in-between Akash-1 and MRSAM. Given that DRDO actually built the MRSAM's dual-pulse motor & recently tested Rudram-1 which also is dual-pulse, what could be the rationale to have Akash-NG as a single-pulse missile?

From the schematics, other than the fact that its named Akash, its a brand new missile. The limited range and single-pulse baffles me a bit. If we were going to do something new, it would have made sense to build an MRSAM replacement.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby kit » 23 Jan 2021 21:10

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/strategic_front/status/1350616344086114310?s=20 ---> ARCI-Hyderabad is producing Tangent Ogive shaped Silica radomes with 460.8 mm length & 192 mm base diameter & with a wall thickness of 4.572 mm. For comparison, the Astra missile is 178mm in diameter. It is likely to be used in an upcoming SAM (Akash-NG) or AAM (Astra Mk-2).


if i am not wrong, silica radomes are quite suited for hypersonic missiles

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Vips » 23 Jan 2021 21:58

15 Akash NG missiles are on the assembly lines right now and trials are scheduled to start in June. Range to be increased to 70 Kms.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby srai » 25 Jan 2021 08:43

https://twitter.com/DRDO_India/status/1 ... 29184?s=20
DRDO
@DRDO_India
·
10h
DRDO’s complement of ATGMs #RepublicDay2021


At 0:30s, there’s a new picture of SANT being launched from a Mi-35.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Pratyush » 25 Jan 2021 11:09

^^^

What's the difference between Helina and SANT??

The link shows both of them.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby bharathp » 25 Jan 2021 11:41

Pratyush wrote:^^^

What's the difference between Helina and SANT??

The link shows both of them.

Helina - Infrared Image seeker
SANT - active radar homing

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby manjgu » 25 Jan 2021 13:16

i hope all the mizziles DRDO is showcasing have been inducted into operational use and not merely tech demonstrators !!!

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby nash » 25 Jan 2021 15:35

https://twitter.com/TheHemantRout/status/1353636081699352576
#BreakingNews #India successfully conducts first test of supersonic Akash-NG #missile from a test facility off #Odisha coast. Developed by @DRDO_India
, the New Generation weapon is capable of destroying highly manoeuvring targets like UAVs, aircraft & missiles. @NewIndianXpress


:D :D :D

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Pratyush » 25 Jan 2021 15:40

^^^nice.

Bharatp thanks.


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