Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby mody » 20 Feb 2021 16:37

Helina getting inducted in numbers, will be truly a game changer for India. Imagine the increase in firepower for IA/IAF. Going from 30 odd Mi-25/35 to 22+6 Apache, 72 Rudra and hopefully 164+ LCH. Basically this would take care of the CAS role that was played by the Mig-27s and Mig-23BNs.
With the Helina, Sant and Hellfire missiles actually being much more lethal as compared to the legacy weapons that the MiGs were fielding.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Vips » 20 Feb 2021 18:32

The time window (Feb 17 to Feb 20) for testing Astra-II is nearly over and no news of the test....

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby nam » 22 Feb 2021 18:08

VL-SRSAM test fired.

Looks like Rout got told there is a Astra type missile test planned. He either assumed it was Astra 2 or someone fed him about Astra 2.

But he made a report on the imminent test of VL-SRSAM.

https://www.newindianexpress.com/states/odisha/2021/feb/22/maiden-test-of-vertically-launched-srsam-from-itr-off-odisha-coast-likely-today-2267271.amp?__twitter_impression=true

We seem to know everything about Astra 2, but the not how the missile looks! DRDO is keeping it as an enigma..Strange secrecy around Astra 2.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Aditya_V » 22 Feb 2021 18:13

Well this is based on Astra- what is role of Akash-2 then , unless Akash-2 is nearly developed while this will take time.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby jamwal » 22 Feb 2021 19:34

VLS canister based system can be deployed on ships, smaller size than Akash

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Prem Kumar » 22 Feb 2021 19:39

He tweeted that the test has taken place. No one else seems to have picked up on it.

A 40Km range is impressive. I am assuming it will be a Barak-1 replacement, i.e. a modern-day Trishul, with its VLS for the IN

For the IA and IAF, there is Akash-1, Akash-1S, MRSAM and upcoming Akash-NG. Not to mention QRSAM, with a similar range. I don't see where an Astra VLSAM fits in the mix.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ashthor » 22 Feb 2021 20:12

Indigenously designed & developed Vertical Launch Short Range Surface to Air Missile (VL-SRSAM) by DRDO for Indian Navy has undergone two successful launches today. The missile is capable of neutralizing various aerial threats at close ranges.

https://twitter.com/DRDO_India/status/1 ... 5490426884

Image

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Aditya_V » 22 Feb 2021 20:35

ashthor wrote:Indigenously designed & developed Vertical Launch Short Range Surface to Air Missile (VL-SRSAM) by DRDO for Indian Navy has undergone two successful launches today. The missile is capable of neutralizing various aerial threats at close ranges.

https://twitter.com/DRDO_India/status/1 ... 5490426884



That is as official as it gets

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Aditya_V » 22 Feb 2021 20:36

ashthor wrote:Indigenously designed & developed Vertical Launch Short Range Surface to Air Missile (VL-SRSAM) by DRDO for Indian Navy has undergone two successful launches today. The missile is capable of neutralizing various aerial threats at close ranges.

https://twitter.com/DRDO_India/status/1 ... 5490426884

Image


use this address and then I will delete my post.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby kvraghav » 22 Feb 2021 21:33

Looks very close to astra mk1. Looks like they are using Astra missile for family of missiles.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby nam » 22 Feb 2021 21:35

https://twitter.com/DefenceDecode/status/1363865592864796673

Image


VL-SRSAM is actually longer than Astra. Astra 2?

If it has dual pulse, then it is for practical purpose Astra 2. Don't know if there is a requirement for dual pulse. Barak8 has it, Mica Naval is planned to have dual pulse, so it will not be out of ordinary..

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Kakarat » 22 Feb 2021 21:47

https://pib.gov.in/PressReleasePage.aspx?PRID=1700039
Defence Research & Development Organisation (DRDO) conducted two successful launches of Vertical Launch Short Range Surface to Air Missile (VL-SRSAM).

The launches were carried out today from a static vertical launcher from Integrated Test Range (ITR), Chandipur off the coast of Odisha. Indigenously designed and developed by DRDO for Indian Navy, VL-SRSAM is meant for neutralizing various aerial threats at close ranges including sea-skimming targets. The current launches were carried out for demonstration of vertical launch capability as part of its maiden launch campaign. On both occasions, the missiles intercepted the simulated targets with pinpoint accuracy. The missiles were tested for minimum and maximum range. VL-SRSAM with Weapon Control System (WCS) were deployed during the trials.

The launches were monitored by senior scientists from various DRDO labs involved in the design and development of the system such as DRDL, RCI, Hyderabad and R&D Engineers, Pune.

During the test launches, flight path and vehicle performance parameters were monitored using flight data, captured by various Range instruments such as Radar, EOTS and Telemetry systems deployed by ITR, Chandipur.

The present trials have proved the effectiveness of the weapon system and few more trials will be conducted shortly before deployment on Indian Naval ships. Once deployed, the VL-SRSAM system will prove to be a force multiplier for the Indian Navy.

Raksha Mantri Shri Rajnath Singh congratulated DRDO on the successful trials. Dr G Satheesh Reddy, Secretary DD R&D & Chairman DRDO congratulated the teams involved in successful flight test of VL-SRSAM Missile System.


https://static.pib.gov.in/WriteReadData/userfiles/image/Pic1(3)2L1S.jpg (3712x5568)

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby kvraghav » 22 Feb 2021 22:10

nam wrote:VL-SRSAM is actually longer than Astra. Astra 2?

If it has dual pulse, then it is for practical purpose Astra 2. Don't know if there is a requirement for dual pulse. Barak8 has it, Mica Naval is planned to have dual pulse, so it will not be out of ordinary..

This is older Astra MK1. The newer Mk1 is very close to this SR SAM.
Image

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Prem Kumar » 22 Feb 2021 22:21

That's some accelerated testing!

Its rare for the 1st test to already be targeting simulated electronic targets at min & max ranges. Usually the VL is tested first, then aerodynamics, avionics & then simulated targets.

I don't think its dual pulse, especially if the range is like 40 Km. For these ranges, one motor should suffice

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby nam » 22 Feb 2021 22:31

kvraghav wrote:This is older Astra MK1. The newer Mk1 is very close to this SR SAM.


You are right. VL-SRSAM is suppose to the "Maitri" replacement, which I think was French dumping Mica- VL on us. The French have now gone alone and it is planned to have dual pulse with AESA seeker.

If it is Maitri replacement, then VL-SRSAM would be expected to have dual pulse. The only thing that goes against this, is the smokeless motor. I don't know if DRDO has managed to create a smokeless, dual pulse motor. If it has, then this is Astra 2. However I expect Astra 2 to be longer.

So Astra 2 still remains a mystery :roll:

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby nam » 22 Feb 2021 22:33

Prem Kumar wrote:I don't think its dual pulse, especially if the range is like 40 Km. For these ranges, one motor should suffice


Mica VL NG is going to be 40KM, with dual pulsed. Single pulse would probably take you to 20KM. Mica VL has a public range of 20KM

Now I am thinking only dual pulse can achieve a 40KM range in a BVR package.. :D

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby nam » 22 Feb 2021 22:42

https://www.edrmagazine.eu/naval-launch-customer-for-mbdas-vl-mica-ng

“The main evolution regards a new dual-pulse rocket motor developed by Roxel that, combined with a reduction in the volume of the electronic components inside the missile to enable it to carry more propellant, will deliver an increased maximum interception range for the VL MICA NG of 40 km


If VL-SRSAM has a confirmed range of 40KM, then it is dual pulsed. And this is Astra 2 land launch.

Unless we have some magic propellant, which the French have not discovered yet.
Last edited by nam on 22 Feb 2021 23:29, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Prem Kumar » 22 Feb 2021 22:55

If its the Astra-2, this would mean that Hemant Rout's original article was correct (except for the SFDR part). We thought it was the ground launch test for IAF's Astra-2, but its the IN's VLSAM test.

This would validate IAF's Astra-2's aerodynamics as well

1 stone = 2 mangoes

Akash-NG would then be the bigger dual-pulse cousin of Astra-2, with a 70 Km range - competing with MRSAM

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby nam » 22 Feb 2021 23:01

Even the TFTA Aim20 ground launched version has 25KM range!

Edit: Spyder ER has a 40KM range, which I think is with Derby-ER (dual pulse BVR)
Spyder-SR has 20KM range.
Last edited by nam on 22 Feb 2021 23:29, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Prem Kumar » 22 Feb 2021 23:20

Wait till brar_w corrects you :P

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby nam » 22 Feb 2021 23:36

Just to add to the confusion, today's test didn't seem to have folded fins. Weren't we expecting VL-SRSAM to have folded fins to sit inside the container?

Folded fins would have been useful for AMCA as well.
Last edited by nam on 22 Feb 2021 23:37, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Kakarat » 22 Feb 2021 23:36

nam wrote:Even the TFTA Aim20 ground launched version has 25KM range!

Edit: Spyder ER has a 40KM range, which I think is with Derby-ER (dual pulse BVR)
Spyder-SR has 20KM range.


Spyder-MR is Spyder + booster
Image

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby nam » 22 Feb 2021 23:38

There are 3 variants with Spyder: SR, ER & MR. MR is the one with the booster. 80KM range.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby mody » 22 Feb 2021 23:49

With dual pulse the range would be more than 40 Kms. Seems to be based on Astra MK1.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby brar_w » 22 Feb 2021 23:57

This is an inherently different mission (in a way) than the Derby, Spyder, AIM-120 (SL) et al. We are talking about a short ranged naval missile. The main threat is an Anti Ship Cruise missile (and increasingly short-medium ranged ASBM's). Most stressing attack profiles include sea skimming, and high diving. Speeds can be high subsonic to low-high supersonic and there is a wide range of signatures as well. The characteristics and trajectories of the target systems, and the intercept profiles are a lot different making any comparisons to ranges (the advertised ranges of those systems are not for use as a short ranged Naval SAM) of those system of very limited utility.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Prem Kumar » 23 Feb 2021 11:38

I was a bit surprised to see the line about this being deployable on Naval ships after a couple of more tests. The following capabilities need to be demonstrated:

1) Performance against sea-clutter. This is where Trishul got stuck but it was command-guided and we have come a long way since then
2) Sea skimming targets
3) Very low RCS. Unlike Astra1 or 2, VLSAM's targets are mostly missiles. These have lower RCS (in fact some of them are optimized to have a low RCS)
4) High maneuverability. We are dealing with targets that can pull 40G, which no aircraft will
5) High supersonic. We should be testing this against a Mach 3 Brahmos, executing an S-maneuver
6) Performance of the VLS launcher in rolling seas. We might reuse VLS for Barak-1 or Barak-8, but the dimensions are not the same. Need to be tested
7) Integration with MF-STAR. Once again, we will re-use what we did for Barak-8, but needs testing
8 ) User trials from ships, involving scenarios like ripple-fire for more than 1 VLSAM to take down a target for increased PK
9) I don't believe we have a fast, maneuvering, sea-skimming target. Banshee is for land use, if I am not mistaken. It will make sense for us to develop such a target to simulate Brahmos-style missiles, in order to develop defenses

One key aspect of VLSAM is that its protecting a very high value target & space constraints would limit a ship to carry only 16 of these babies. So, each shot would have to count.

In Dr. Satheesh Reddy's interview with DDR, I noticed a pattern. Those missiles which have started user-trials in 2021 were going to be inducted in 2022. Those which are starting dev trials in 2021 are to be inducted in 2023.

I'd reckon VLSAM won't be inducted before 2023, given all the complexities above
Last edited by Prem Kumar on 23 Feb 2021 15:08, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Picklu » 23 Feb 2021 12:32

What's the significance of having 2 names for the same missile with same launch platform? Or is there some difference?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby nam » 23 Feb 2021 16:09

It is bit strange that DRDO went ahead with the test without a container or folded fins. QRSAM had both in the first test itself. I think it had TVC vanes as well, in the first test. So it is not like DRDO needs to test the TVC vanes.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby jamwal » 23 Feb 2021 18:35

Engine of VL Astra seems to be quite different from AAM version. Looks like some kind of vane like structure.

Found it:
Image

Image

Image

Image

Image
Last edited by jamwal on 23 Feb 2021 18:45, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Pratyush » 23 Feb 2021 18:45

Maybe because a booster is added to the missile for VL applications.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby brar_w » 23 Feb 2021 20:10

Prem Kumar wrote: The following capabilities need to be demonstrated:

1) Performance against sea-clutter. This is where Trishul got stuck but it was command-guided and we have come a long way since then
2) Sea skimming targets
3) Very low RCS. Unlike Astra1 or 2, VLSAM's targets are mostly missiles. These have lower RCS (in fact some of them are optimized to have a low RCS)
4) High maneuverability. We are dealing with targets that can pull 40G, which no aircraft will
5) High supersonic. We should be testing this against a Mach 3 Brahmos, executing an S-maneuver
6) Performance of the VLS launcher in rolling seas. We might reuse VLS for Barak-1 or Barak-8, but the dimensions are not the same. Need to be tested
7) Integration with MF-STAR. Once again, we will re-use what we did for Barak-8, but needs testing
8 ) User trials from ships, involving scenarios like ripple-fire for more than 1 VLSAM to take down a target for increased PK
9) I don't believe we have a fast, maneuvering, sea-skimming target. Banshee is for land use, if I am not mistaken. It will make sense for us to develop such a target to simulate Brahmos-style missiles, in order to develop defenses

One key aspect of VLSAM is that its protecting a very high value target & space constraints would limit a ship to carry only 16 of these babies. So, each shot would have to count.

In Dr. Satheesh Reddy's interview with DDR, I noticed a pattern. Those missiles which have started user-trials in 2021 were going to be inducted in 2022. Those which are starting dev trials in 2021 are to be inducted in 2023.

I'd reckon VLSAM won't be inducted before 2023, given all the complexities above


This is an excellent summary. Naval SAM's, in particular short-medium ranged naval SAM's, are primarily aimed at (as in this threat is priority #1) the ASCM or other anti-ship threats. And given the environment of an at sea launch and interception, and the abilities, tactics, and range of performance of some of the sea threats, this will require a fairly significant at-sea development and operational testing before it is matured and operationalized. Expect them to begin doing this in subsequent phases of testing. As you rightly mention, naval target requirements are also unique from a ground based SAM target requirements. Not only do they need to have a wider envelope, they also need to be designed with a sea-based test platform in mind (how does one safely test a Mach 3 high-diver intercept at sea etc). This is a unique challenge to designing and testing a naval SAM. An advantage of doing is that you are able to offer the infrastructure and the targets to your operational crews so that they are better prepared as well. Kill two birds with one stone.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby kvraghav » 23 Feb 2021 20:31

The extra vanes may be needed for vertical launch stability when compared to the AAM.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby brar_w » 23 Feb 2021 20:38

A vertically launched short-medium ranged naval SAM isn't going to be lofting for a majority of its intercepts. So it needs to be able to execute a very rapid pitch over maneuver to align itself to the most optimal intercept trajectory, as fast as possible. Barring any other design solution (like ACMs) this means a TVC system.

On the ESSM, for example, they put a jet vane system that aligns the missile to the right trajectory soon after VL launch, and then detaches to get you the best of both worlds (you get the initial quick snap maneuver, and you don't degrade Isp for the longer duration of flight to the intercept). Perhaps VL ASTRA is using something similar.

Image

You can see the POM here -

https://youtu.be/Mw5f0_SQeuc?t=64

At roughly 1:11 mark you can see the vane control system being let go.

Pratyush wrote:Maybe because a booster is added to the missile for VL applications.


Booster is not the most optimal approach when you need a system that has the job of being the inner defense against sea skimming targets. Think trying to intercept a Mach 3+ sea skimmer at minimal range (last shot scenarios). Vertically launching, ditching the booster, and igniting the SRM is going to take up time and altitude. Adding a booster to a 7" or sub 7" missile (like the Israeli options mentioned earlier) to try to convert it into a medium-long-range SAM is also not optimal for a Naval SAM application. As you begin to approach BLOS (to ship radar) targets, you really want to be able to provide a 10-13" guidance section given that your ability to provide updates may be minimal against many target types. High-Low-Low and even Low-Low-Low target trajectories need to be accounted for. Med.-Long range Naval SAM's are also area-defense weapons so they need to account for different trajectories and targets that are guided towards other vessels and not just those incoming towards the launch vessel. These are less important to a short ranged ground based SAM system (like a Spyder/NASAMS etc). This is why there are generally different SAM's systems, or at least missiles, for different altitudes and intercept ranges. Longer ranged systems are larger, have more room for electronics and a larger diameter guidance section compared to the point defense or the short-med. ranged systems. As distances get large and you generally need a more capable seeker to maintain a desired probability of intercept/kill.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Rakesh » 25 Feb 2021 08:32


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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Rakesh » 25 Feb 2021 08:38

https://twitter.com/strategic_front/sta ... 97060?s=20 ---> VL-SRSAM's ship launch configuration shows a 16 cell VLU set up. Most current Indian Navy Frigates & Destroyers should be able to house one such VLU set up on their forward decks. The VL-SRSAM will fill the gap in AD capability between AK-630s & Barak-8 LRSAMs on Indian ships.

Image

Image

Image

Image

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby John » 25 Feb 2021 08:51

nam wrote:https://www.edrmagazine.eu/naval-launch-customer-for-mbdas-vl-mica-ng

“The main evolution regards a new dual-pulse rocket motor developed by Roxel that, combined with a reduction in the volume of the electronic components inside the missile to enable it to carry more propellant, will deliver an increased maximum interception range for the VL MICA NG of 40 km


If VL-SRSAM has a confirmed range of 40KM, then it is dual pulsed. And this is Astra 2 land launch.

Unless we have some magic propellant, which the French have not discovered yet.


You cannot compare the two missiles this doesn't look like straight up Astra mk1 being converted for air defense similar to how mica was. So expect the range should be better than vl mica as it would be better optimized for that role.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby nam » 25 Feb 2021 15:27

John wrote:You cannot compare the two missiles this doesn't look like straight up Astra mk1 being converted for air defense similar to how mica was. So expect the range should be better than vl mica as it would be better optimized for that role.


It is not just Mica, even the Debry and Aim120 don't reach 40KM in their single pulse land fired mode. And they are not even vertically launched.

Given all the TVC disco VL-SRSAM is suppose to do, there is no way a standard Astra amount of propellant can give you a range of 40KM at such lower altitude.

It still retains the Astra's large central fins compared to Akash NG. So the drag has not been reduced either. Hence my personal view is that it is a dual pulse motor. aka Astra 2(or Astra IR with TC Vanes) They even did a rail launch, instead of using a container! No folded fins either. DRDO was in a hurry to test this missile.

Let's see how Astra 2 looks like.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Kanson » 25 Feb 2021 19:10

Main area of operation for vl-srsam is in handling targets at short ranges.
Though flavour of the day is dual pulse, Long ranges could be reached depending upon alt & trajectory. After all in aam role its actual range of 20+ km is boosted to 80+km by speed & alt. Word around is it range could be increased further.
Mica & derby are shorter range missiles compared to Astra. There range qutoed is around 40 - 60 km whereas for Astra it is 110+km.

It is pleasing to see the speed with which this project is progressing.

Is it capable of doing both hot & cold launch?

Can it get along with old systems?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Lisa » 27 Feb 2021 19:11

May I ask if India still has missiles like this in service,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novator_KS-172

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Kanson » 01 Mar 2021 14:35

IAF do possess something of that long range in this section.


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