Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

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srin
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by srin »

You know what's interesting to me about the Brahmos "mishap" ? That it was the IAF that was handling it. IMO, IAF only has air launched Brahmos. I always believed they did massive changes to support air launching. So was this an air launched Brahmos that was accidentally fired from the ground ?
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Rakesh »

Haridas wrote:Not clear what you mean?
You mean don't show the image and just give url to the image?
If so I fail to understand the reason for the request? Pls clarify.
Haridas-ji, my apologies if my post was not clear. Please see example below.

It shows the picture and the link from where the picture was sourced. So just like that onlee.

===================================================================

This is how the launchers will look like on the upgraded Delhi Class. The Kolkata and Visakhapatnam Classes have VLS cells for BrahMos.

https://twitter.com/DefenceDecode/statu ... osfrfffW2A ---> Twin inclined tube BrahMos launchers of the guided-missile destroyer Rajput.

Image
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Pratyush »

srin wrote:You know what's interesting to me about the Brahmos "mishap" ? That it was the IAF that was handling it. IMO, IAF only has air launched Brahmos. I always believed they did massive changes to support air launching. So was this an air launched Brahmos that was accidentally fired from the ground ?
I had seen ground launched brahmos in iaf colours in Delhi back in 2014-15. So not really surprising.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by ldev »

ShivS wrote:Any records of a Brahmos being fired on moving targets- say a manouvering ship?
I am also curious about this. Have not seen any of the tests specifically mention a moving target. It supposedly has an active radar seeker which will identify a target given the speed with which it will arrive at it's INS/GPS coordinates area and normal acquisition range of such seekers. But what if it's a group of surface ships, how will it discriminate between them? And an active seeker is always vulnerable to ECM.....
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by John »

Rakesh wrote:
This is how the launchers will look like on the upgraded Delhi Class. The Kolkata and Visakhapatnam Classes have VLS cells for BrahMos.

https://twitter.com/DefenceDecode/statu ... osfrfffW2A ---> Twin inclined tube BrahMos launchers of the guided-missile destroyer Rajput.
I think it is bit different in Rajput they are 2x twin inclined launchers where as L&T launcher used in Delhi is a four tube inclined launcher.

Here is an image you posted previously not sure if this make the diff easier to visualize than trying to explain it. It is interesting change over not sure what was reason for it, less space consumed?

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7855&hilit=Ins+delh ... 0#p2533896
Last edited by John on 22 Apr 2022 04:20, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by SSridhar »

srin wrote:You know what's interesting to me about the Brahmos "mishap" ? That it was the IAF that was handling it. IMO, IAF only has air launched Brahmos. I always believed they did massive changes to support air launching. So was this an air launched Brahmos that was accidentally fired from the ground ?
IAF has a few ground-launched regiments of BrahMos. At least two, may be more now.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Rakesh »

John wrote:I think it is bit different in Rajput they are 2x twin inclined launchers where as L&T launcher used in Delhi is a four tube inclined launcher.

Here is an image you posted previously not sure if this make the diff easier to visualize than trying to explain it. It is interesting change over not sure what was reason for it, less space consumed?

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7855&hilit=Ins+delh ... 0#p2533896
John, thanks for pointing that! I forgot that post :)

The four cell in that picture confirms that it is a total of 8 BrahMos then. One quad launcher on either side.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Rakesh »

SSridhar wrote:
srin wrote:You know what's interesting to me about the Brahmos "mishap" ? That it was the IAF that was handling it. IMO, IAF only has air launched Brahmos. I always believed they did massive changes to support air launching. So was this an air launched Brahmos that was accidentally fired from the ground ?
IAF has a few ground-launched regiments of BrahMos. At least two, may be more now.
Indeed. Check this out.

A likely good way to differentiate between Army and Air Force ground launched regiments, is that the IAF version is the classic Tipnis Grey. The Army version is the Olive Green. See pictures below.

Indian Air Force Test Fires BrahMos Land to Land Version
https://www.indiastrategic.in/Indian_Ai ... ersion.htm

Image

India Sells Antiship Missiles to the Philippines as Concern Over China Grows
https://www.wsj.com/articles/india-sell ... 1642254147

Image
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by V_Raman »

why does IAF need offensive cruise missile regiments? i can understand defensive SAMs around airfields. but offensive?
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Rakesh »

V_Raman wrote:why does IAF need offensive cruise missile regiments? i can understand defensive SAMs around airfields. but offensive?
To target Hardened Air Shelters (HAS) and other high value targets at various airbases in Pakistan and China. Some of the HAS infrastructure in Pakistan was built by the Americans during the 50s and 60s, during the CENTO and SEATO agreements. When you see youtube videos on Pakistan Day (March 23), it usually shows F-16s exiting these HAS facilities onto the main runway for takeoff. From these airbases, they fly over Islamabad for the air display...just like how the IAF does for Republic Day on Jan 26th.

PAF Base Mushaf has a number of HAS and also underground bunkers. PAF Base Bholari is also being developed for that reason. Both bases permanently house F-16s. Will be targeted by BrahMos (among other kit) in a full blown conflict. Expect the J-10 airbase to get thoroughly BrahMos-ed as well :)
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Rakesh »

ShivS wrote:Any records of a Brahmos being fired on moving targets- say a manouvering ship?
After nearly 21 years (first test was on 12 June 2001) of test firings, if the missile is not capable of striking a moving target, then... :mrgreen:

I have not come across such a video myself, but maybe other posters have. As per this news report, the BrahMos can engage a moving target.

With BrahMos Missile, Air Force Can Hit Enemy Ship In Minutes
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/with-br ... es-1778799
The BrahMos used today is 500 kilos lighter than the versions used by the Army and Navy which weigh 3 tonnes. The BrahMos can strike fixed targets like terrorist camps using pre-programmed coordinates which are entered into the system prior to the mission.

Alternatively, the BrahMos can be guided to a moving target such as a ship using inputs from Indian military satellites or through a data-link between the missile or friendly warships or maritime reconnaissance aircraft.
All the destroyers (Delhi, Kolkata, Visakhapatnam and Rajput) and frigates (Nilgiri, Talwar and Shivalik) in the Indian Navy are armed with this missile. As far as I know, they have all tested (or will test) their missiles against static targets. Perhaps the IN believes enemy vessels will stay anchored at a fixed location :)
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Pratyush »

Sometimes BRF makes me eye roll so hard that i fear that my brain will fallout.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Rakesh »

Pratyush wrote:Sometimes BRF makes me eye roll so hard that i fear that my brain will fallout.
:rotfl:
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Haridas »

Rakesh wrote:
ShivS wrote:Any records of a Brahmos being fired on moving targets- say a manouvering ship?
After nearly 21 years (first test was on 12 June 2001) of test firings, if the missile is not capable of striking a moving target, then... :mrgreen:

I have not come across such a video myself, but maybe other posters have. As per this news report, the BrahMos can engage a moving target. ....

.... All the destroyers (Delhi, Kolkata, Visakhapatnam and Rajput) and frigates (Nilgiri, Talwar and Shivalik) in the Indian Navy are armed with this missile. As far as I know, they have all tested (or will test) their missiles against static targets. Perhaps the IN believes enemy vessels will stay anchored at a fixed location :)
Problem of wandering Brahmos, if the moving target ship wanders across to La-whore!
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by ldev »

The Brahmos flies at ~3000 km/hour so it will take about 6 minutes to reach it's target if the surface ship is 300 km away. Even if the ship's speed is 30 knots it will not be more than ~ 5 km from the original location where it was when the missile was launched, whether it's an air launched or ship launched Brahmos. That original location can be fixed from different sources i.e IN's satellite or other airborne reconnaissance and guidance is via INS/GPS/NAVIC. I don't know if Brahmos has a data link for mid course correction but the speed with which it arrives in the designated area and the relatively limited movement of the target during the missile's transit makes the data link superflous at least IMO. It is not a subsonic 1500 km range cruise missile flying at 800 km/hour which will take 2 hours to reach the target area. If Brahmos has a data link that will add to the missile's lethality. The assumption is that the missile has an active radar seeker and if the seeker has a range of ~50 km for a large ship sized target then about 5 minutes into it's 6 minute flight it will acquire the target and home in on it, whether the target is static or moving.

Unknowns and potential downsides are if the only seeker is an active radar homing seeker it will be vulnerable to jamming. Second potential downside is that as the Pakistan incident demonstrated, the missile flies quite high i.e. 35,000 -45,000 feet. Whether that altitude is a pre-requisite to achieve it's maximum range is unknown to me but likely and it also means that adversary radars if they are good will be able to detect the incoming missile. And the 3rd unknown to me is what happens if there is a surface group of enemy warships that are being targeted. Does the seeker have any ability to discern between different targets so that the most valuable target is prioritized? All comments welcome.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by shaun »

In Salvo mode, a pack of brahmos can prioritize target before attack. They have inertial mid course guidence , with both internal computer guidence or from external source . If active homing seekers can be be jammed it have Imaging infrared Seeker too
Last edited by shaun on 23 Apr 2022 06:52, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by viveks »

Are there any videos of the first S-400 site? Photos of the command center, etc. I have heard that the S-400 is a spruced up version of the S-300 MPV...which has the Grill pan Radar. I have seen videos of how information is shown in the Isreali Green pine radars. I think India has 3 of them functioning. Our radar assets have really matured with the coming of the Phalcons. I would like to see photos of how information is shown out of the radar of the S-400. Anyone has those, please share.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by hnair »

viveks, there will be no soliciting of such data here. Whatever gets posted in this forum must be for approved for public release by MoD. You will get a warning or ban next time you ask in that fashion about radar feed or display.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by viveks »

maybe my request hit a nerve some place....well...the video of the Green pine that I saw was public knowledge...not anything related to the know how....forgive me if you thought I was asking about the know how...may be you were thinking along those lines. Feel free to ban me for asking public knowledge questions and make things go against the spirit of this forum. Really appreciate the isrealis to even provide visuals of some user interface for the Green pine as public knowledge. Maybe, since Aegis user interface was not been advertised and released, that even a glimpse of Grill pan's parent has been not released to civil public. In some good practical sense, even a glimpse does not reveal any vital information!!!

If you feelk I have violated your secret oaths...then you can ban the **** out of me....whatever I post is regarding what is in public knowledge.
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Reason: Edited out inappropriate word
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by SSridhar »

viveks, when admins take a decision, it is not whimsical and it is certainly taken after careful consideration and observing consistent behaviour of posters.
Heed what hnair has told you.
Do not argue over this matter but drop it here and now. I have also edited your post for an inappropriate word.
No further posts allowed on this issue. Thanks.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by viveks »

Hey man...if there is no information available, one just say that. You making threats like these amounts defacto cyberbullying. Maybe you might want to talk to law informant like this!!. Not to me....Going against the spirit of this open forum...will be your own doing. Go ahead and feel free and ban and be done if posts are politically irritating to you. I am a very famous person here that I require policing for even suggesting and talking about public knowledge.
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Reason: VivekS ji cool off during this time away from BRF
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Vayutuvan »

<Poof>
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Pratyush »

<poof>
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by ldev »

viveks wrote:Are there any videos of the first S-400 site? Photos of the command center, etc. I have heard that the S-400 is a spruced up version of the S-300 MPV...which has the Grill pan Radar. I have seen videos of how information is shown in the Isreali Green pine radars. I think India has 3 of them functioning. Our radar assets have really matured with the coming of the Phalcons. I would like to see photos of how information is shown out of the radar of the S-400. Anyone has those, please share.
There will be sensitivity about posting any video/photo of the S-400 site because of the potential for geolocation of the coordinates which will enable targeting by adversaries.

If you google you will find images of the radar screens of the various radars distributed by Tass via Gettyimages on reports about the Turkish S-400 deliveries. Also on aussieairpower which has always covered Russian equipment.

i.e. there are many ways to satisfy your geek curiosity without asking for it on the forum.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by wig »

https://www.indiatoday.in/defence/story ... 2022-04-24
India arming Russian Mi-17 helicopters with Israeli NLOS anti-tank guided missiles (Non Line of Sight) . the missiles will have a strike range of 30 kms


excertpts
The ATGMs can fly low in mountainous areas and can hit ground targets from distances up to 30 kms, top government sources told India Today.

According to the sources, the missiles have already arrived in the country and are being deployed on Russian helicopters somewhere in the western sector.

The Indian armed forces are implementing the lessons learnt from the Russia-Ukraine conflict where tanks and anti-tank missiles have come into play in a big way. The Ukrainian forces have used the anti-tank and anti-aircraft missiles supplied by the Western European nations and America effectively against the Russian armoured columns, sources said
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Pratyush »

Spike NLOS should also be mounted on the Apache helo.

Israel's Apache are equipped to fire that missile.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by shaun »

Must be Spike NLOS already validated with Apache , But this system got limitation, having fire solution of one target at a time. NLOS at such distance must be TV / optically guided . Even if teams at ground near to the target can take over and direct it , what's the operational advantage of such system with hepters apart from intelligence gathering and one target at a time ?
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by John »

shaun wrote:Must be Spike NLOS already validated with Apache , But this system got limitation, having fire solution of one target at a time. NLOS at such distance must be TV / optically guided . Even if teams at ground near to the target can take over and direct it , what's the operational advantage of such system with hepters apart from intelligence gathering and one target at a time ?
NLOS is fire and forget, it uses fiber optic or data-link in cases where it cannot find a target or operator wants to switch targets. In latter case guidance is only needed for new target selection (once it’s locks on ) so operator in helo won’t be guiding the missile till engagement.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by shaun »

John wrote:
shaun wrote:Must be Spike NLOS already validated with Apache , But this system got limitation, having fire solution of one target at a time. NLOS at such distance must be TV / optically guided . Even if teams at ground near to the target can take over and direct it , what's the operational advantage of such system with hepters apart from intelligence gathering and one target at a time ?
NLOS is fire and forget, it uses fiber optic or data-link in cases where it cannot find a target or operator wants to switch targets. In latter case guidance is only needed for new target selection (once it’s locks on ) so operator in helo won’t be guiding the missile till engagement.
Yes both LOAL and LOBL modes , that's what I mentioned , but as suggested by you , with the possibility of multiple missiles fired from single platform and those missile guided to their target by local teams but For that, those teams need to be near to those targets so what's advantage it brings with such standoff range ?
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by John »

Not sure I follow you if enemy unit is spotted by drone or local unit, spike NLOS can fired from an airborne platform beyond visual horizon at that given location. Operator on helo doesn’t need to do anything, only if it doesn’t lock onto to target or wants to switch target does he need to intervene even that should be only few secs at most. I don’t see why helo cannot handle 4 missiles in the air at the same time.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by hnair »

Vayutuvan and Pratyush, stick to thread topic. Thanks
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by kit »

[quote="wig"]
India arming Russian Mi-17 helicopters with Israeli NLOS anti-tank guided missiles (Non Line of Sight) . the missiles will have a strike range of 30 kms excerpts[quote]

so Dhruvastra and Helina did not make the grade or is it just that the Israeli one is longer range ?
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by shaun »

John wrote:Not sure I follow you if enemy unit is spotted by drone or local unit, spike NLOS can fired from an airborne platform beyond visual horizon at that given location. Operator on helo doesn’t need to do anything, only if it doesn’t lock onto to target or wants to switch target does he need to intervene even that should be only few secs at most. I don’t see why helo cannot handle 4 missiles in the air at the same time.
Ok let's say we have a scenario where we detect enemy armored vehicles or High value targets, we call on hepter with spike NLOS to lob on to the general direction of the target , once it's near to target , terminal guidence input is provided by the local team who is near to the target . Doesn't it make sense for the local team to use their own ATGMs instead of relying on spike carried by hepter ?

Hepters can't detect enemy targets at such long distance so require ground support for such standoff weapons.

Now if you use the above scenario for multiple teams and support with multiple spike NLOS , the result is same , all these teams should be near to the target and can use their own ATGM for proper attack
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Atmavik »

^^^ this is a puzzling development. Just as we have successful tests of Helina this news comes . And the chopper is a transport platform and not the LCH/Dhruv. Will mi 17 be used in anti armor role?
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by John »

shaun wrote:
Ok let's say we have a scenario where we detect enemy armored vehicles or High value targets, we call on hepter with spike NLOS to lob on to the general direction of the target , once it's near to target , terminal guidence input is provided by the local team who is near to the target . Doesn't it make sense for the local team to use their own ATGMs instead of relying on spike carried by hepter ?

Hepters can't detect enemy targets at such long distance so require ground support for such standoff weapons.

Now if you use the above scenario for multiple teams and support with multiple spike NLOS , the result is same , all these teams should be near to the target and can use their own ATGM for proper attack
I am not following you, why do you need terminal guidance input by a local team. The missile will lock on to target in terminal phase.

Way it will work I can imagine would be light drone operated by ground units identify enemy units in a given location, NLOS will be fired on those coordinates and if missile cannot Lock on in that given area before terminal phase. The operator in the helicopter will manually identify another target.

Given the threat of manpad and SAMs and advent of UAVs IMO attack helicopter will evolve into stand off platforms with UAVs providing targeting information.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by ldev »

Demonstration video by Rafael Defense Systems of the Spike NCLOS. It has an IIR-electro optical seeker and is wire guided upto 8 km at which point the wire gets unplugged and it is guided by a data link for the rest of the 30 km range. Already tested by the US from an Apache AH-64.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Pratyush »

I am not following the discussion about the spike NLOS terminal guidance.

Israel's Apache are equipped to fire it. The cobras that they had were equipped to fire it. The US army tested the missiles on the Apache in the last 2 years.

The concept of operations is fairly well established. Enough you tube video exist showing it's employment.





It will help to actually watch what the concept of operations is for the missiles.

The IAF IMO is making a good decision. The Mi17 has a good payload and sufficient space in the cabin to integrate the fire control system on the machine.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by shaun »

John wrote:
shaun wrote:
Ok let's say we have a scenario where we detect enemy armored vehicles or High value targets, we call on hepter with spike NLOS to lob on to the general direction of the target , once it's near to target , terminal guidence input is provided by the local team who is near to the target . Doesn't it make sense for the local team to use their own ATGMs instead of relying on spike carried by hepter ?

Hepters can't detect enemy targets at such long distance so require ground support for such standoff weapons.

Now if you use the above scenario for multiple teams and support with multiple spike NLOS , the result is same , all these teams should be near to the target and can use their own ATGM for proper attack
I am not following you, why do you need terminal guidance input by a local team. The missile will lock on to target in terminal phase.

Way it will work I can imagine would be light drone operated by ground units identify enemy units in a given location, NLOS will be fired on those coordinates and if missile cannot Lock on in that given area before terminal phase. The operator in the helicopter will manually identify another target.

Given the threat of manpad and SAMs and advent of UAVs IMO attack helicopter will evolve into stand off platforms with UAVs providing targeting information.
Make sense using UAV instead of terminal guidence from local teams . But the question is how this missile work ,

1  either you have to feed  from UAVs or sat , with exact GPS coordinate for immovable HVT and identification of target using IR Seeker at terminal phase.

2.  you can do a recce of you area of interest using the missile's optical feed and guide it to target of opportunity

3. let the local team guide the missile to its intended target

In all of the above scenarios,  multiple lunch is possible for point 1 only that too once one missile reaches its terminal phase for the onboard seeker to indetify its target , for the rest, crew inside the helpter will be glued with one missile per target

Why I am saying this for ATGM class missiles mostly guidence is provide by on board sensors of the platform . For terminal guidence using  IR and mmwave seekers , with identification and acquistion done by the sensors mounted on platform ( here hepter ) and can guided multiple missile to multiple targets . Only a combination of IR and mmWave Seeker based missile can be truly independent from its lunch platform with extended range , for rest , men in the loop is necessary.  Now mi17 is a transport helicopter with no onboard sensors for guiding such NLOS long range missiles , so it will solely replying on pre-fed data to its missile for any given mission or rely on live target coordinates from other platforms and thus require data link. So I assume mi17 are retrofitted not only with user console but data link too.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by shaun »

Pratyush wrote:I am not following the discussion about the spike NLOS terminal guidance.

Israel's Apache are equipped to fire it. The cobras that they had were equipped to fire it. The US army tested the missiles on the Apache in the last 2 years.

The concept of operations is fairly well established. Enough you tube video exist showing it's employment.


It will help to actually watch what the concept of operations is for the missiles.

The IAF IMO is making a good decision. The Mi17 has a good payload and sufficient space in the cabin to integrate the fire control system on the machine.
My contention is simple , mi17 is a transport helicopter , with no dedicate offensive or defensive sensors. Only purpose it will serve , it will act as platform to lob missile to general coordinates and let the missile do the work either using its pre fed coordinates or from external source or at best with user console and data link onboard helping crew to do quick recce using missile onboard sensor and prosecute target of opportunity. Will be interesting to know the kind of data link being used ,and whether retrofitted mi17 are identifiable.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by ks_sachin »

shaun wrote:
Pratyush wrote:I am not following the discussion about the spike NLOS terminal guidance.

Israel's Apache are equipped to fire it. The cobras that they had were equipped to fire it. The US army tested the missiles on the Apache in the last 2 years.

The concept of operations is fairly well established. Enough you tube video exist showing it's employment.


It will help to actually watch what the concept of operations is for the missiles.

The IAF IMO is making a good decision. The Mi17 has a good payload and sufficient space in the cabin to integrate the fire control system on the machine.
My contention is simple , mi17 is a transport helicopter , with no dedicate offensive or defensive sensors. Only purpose it will serve , it will act as platform to lob missile to general coordinates and let the missile do the work either using its pre fed coordinates or from external source or at best with user console and data link onboard helping crew to do quick recce using missile onboard sensor and prosecute target of opportunity. Will be interesting to know the kind of data link being used ,and whether retrofitted mi17 are identifiable.
Perhaps one spends time understanding anti armr ops in the Indian context?
In the plains and then in Ladakh.
Locked