Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

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Prem Kumar
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Prem Kumar »

TV feed, with the WSO having the ability to place his rectangle on the selected target and send the info back to the missile
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by shaun »

Prem Kumar wrote:TV feed, with the WSO having the ability to place his rectangle on the selected target and send the info back to the missile
Thanks a ton . Yes mid course guidence too established in subsequent test by different source other than the lunch platform .
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by nits »

Gurus, based on Russia Ukraine crisis... 2 things are pretty clear.

Missiles play a key role in modern warfare and any country which needs to win a war need to be technology superior in missile tech

Missiles are needed in 1000s, you need it to break the will and fighting capacity of other country.

Now talking this in our context - we are good from tech perspective but I am not sure that we have huze inventory of missiles or possess them in 1000s considering both neibghour have some anti missile capability unlike Ukraine which increase the count we need to have an upper hand...

Do we have enough missiles for a long war, does our prod capacity can be increased and are we implementing lessons from Russia Ukraine conflict in our defence ecosystem?

Something we need to seriously think and act upon
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Aditya_V »

Nope, we need a lot more, that's why Pakis were happy to provoke. In an open military conflict they consider stalemate good for H&D. Like for eg. Objectively, PAF did very badly on both 26 Feb 19 and 27 Feb 19. But H&D they believe 1 Mig 21 and Su 30 loss for India with no losses on thier side.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Pratyush »

It depends on what kind of missiles you are talking about.

The IAF some years ago was confident of making Pakistan strategically paralyzed with approximately 5000 strategic targets killed. We had sufficient for that moment in time.

Today that might have changed. The IAF will have adapted to the new requirements as well.

PRC is a seperate issue. But with domestic industrial capacity coming on line we can hold the line against PRC as well in the near future.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by nits »

Pratyush wrote:It depends on what kind of missiles you are talking about.
Was referring to ground to ground- or air to ground - likes of Brahmos, Agnis and so on
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Pratyush »

nits wrote:
Pratyush wrote:It depends on what kind of missiles you are talking about.
Was referring to ground to ground - likes of Brahmos, Agnis and so on
Hmmm

I have no real clue about that.

IIRC, the domestic market for Brahmos was supposed to be 1000+ missiles.

We had 2 Prithvi missile groups at one time. That will have to be replaced in the very near future. Candidates for replacement, include whole series of missiles starting from a range of 200 Kms to 750 Kms.

If the forces agree to all of them. Then over the next 10 years we are going to end up with over 10 K missiles below 1000 km range.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by ks_sachin »

nits wrote:Gurus, based on Russia Ukraine crisis... 2 things are pretty clear.

Missiles play a key role in modern warfare and any country which needs to win a war need to be technology superior in missile tech

Missiles are needed in 1000s, you need it to break the will and fighting capacity of other country.

Now talking this in our context - we are good from tech perspective but I am not sure that we have huze inventory of missiles or possess them in 1000s considering both neibghour have some anti missile capability unlike Ukraine which increase the count we need to have an upper hand...

Do we have enough missiles for a long war, does our prod capacity can be increased and are we implementing lessons from Russia Ukraine conflict in our defence ecosystem?

Something we need to seriously think and act upon
I draw some different conclusions which include yours as a consideration.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by nits »

Kindly share your conclusions Sachin Ji
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Kakarat »

https://twitter.com/AN_Command/status/1 ... reBvE6WnwQ (Video)
#IndianNavy & #ANC yet again demonstrate #CombatReadiness by successfully destroying target at sea through #AntiShip version of #BrahMos at A&N Islands on 27 Apr 22.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Jay »

nits wrote:Kindly share your conclusions Sachin Ji
Nit ji, I think more than missiles, there needs to be an absolute critical need in mastering comms, and intelligence gathering/processing/sharing practices. Time and time again, Russia lost general after general because they were using unsecured and in some cases open comms and enemy was able to pin point their locations and take them out. Remember how Pakis were able to hear IAF comms during the entire Balakot saga?

Round the clock surveillance and monitoring platforms that show what's going on not only at the battlefield theatre level, but also at a squad level as well. This will give the commanders, and generals actionable input, without which Russia is paying a huge price like its failed raid on hostomel airport and its failed capture of Kiev. On the other hand, access to these platforms from individual squads is multiplying UKR's effectiveness. From TB2 drones to modified chini drones dropping individual unguided munitions, they are worth their weight in gold. At the strategic level, all the monitoring platforms of US and other NATO countries are effectively spoon feeding Russian decisions in almost real time to Ukraine.

We need to build platforms that can take some damage and get the job done. That means no more penny pinching in defensive aids. A squadron of planes without SPJ's, Secure Comms, flare countermeasures, RWR's, electronic warfare systems, and other defensive aids will be less effective than half a squadron of planes with all of those. Same with our tanks, and soldiers as well.

Finally, we need to make sure that we deny the above capabilities to the enemy if we ever want to take the attack to them. Lots more of the lessons to be learnt from this war.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by ks_sachin »

Jay wrote:
nits wrote:Kindly share your conclusions Sachin Ji
Nit ji, I think more than missiles, there needs to be an absolute critical need in mastering comms, and intelligence gathering/processing/sharing practices. Time and time again, Russia lost general after general because they were using unsecured and in some cases open comms and enemy was able to pin point their locations and take them out. Remember how Pakis were able to hear IAF comms during the entire Balakot saga?

Round the clock surveillance and monitoring platforms that show what's going on not only at the battlefield theatre level, but also at a squad level as well. This will give the commanders, and generals actionable input, without which Russia is paying a huge price like its failed raid on hostomel airport and its failed capture of Kiev. On the other hand, access to these platforms from individual squads is multiplying UKR's effectiveness. From TB2 drones to modified chini drones dropping individual unguided munitions, they are worth their weight in gold. At the strategic level, all the monitoring platforms of US and other NATO countries are effectively spoon feeding Russian decisions in almost real time to Ukraine.

We need to build platforms that can take some damage and get the job done. That means no more penny pinching in defensive aids. A squadron of planes without SPJ's, Secure Comms, flare countermeasures, RWR's, electronic warfare systems, and other defensive aids will be less effective than half a squadron of planes with all of those. Same with our tanks, and soldiers as well.

Finally, we need to make sure that we deny the above capabilities to the enemy if we ever want to take the attack to them. Lots more of the lessons to be learnt from this war.
Jay and nits - I agree with all that you have stated. However here is my take on what the learnings for me are;

- Operational strategy and tactics have to be very closely aligned to the overall strategic aim of the government (the armed forces are an instrument of state policy). In Ukraine, there seems to be a disconnect.
- Combat formations have to be structured to and operationalised to meet tactical and strategic objectives - in the case of the current conflict I get the feeling that the Russian armed forces structure was not designed to prosecute the kind of engagement that has ensued - I will, however, defer to Deans on this. This is especially important as we have introduced the Independent Battle Group concept.
- Armr seems to have done poorly in the currently conflict. Now regardless of that,I believe that Armr has a decided role to play in operations hence we need to really focus on integrated mechanised warfare which is truly combined arms to;
---create the space for effective utilisation of armour
---use armr as an effective tip of the spear and have adequate and use effectively force multipliers like PGMs, S2S missiles, EW so that the tip of the spear is not blunted and is more effective.
---Increase mechanisation that can exploit the use of force multipliers effectively by exploiting opportunities as they open up.
---Be very clear on command and control - with all the Surveillance assets there is the possibility of information overload and who get to see what needs to be looked at closely as this can be overwhelming. At the same time, there has to be tactical flexibility for local commanders down to the level of an NCO make certain decisions - I feel that the Russians have also suffered due to their command and control set up and I feel that we could suffer the same if we (and may be we are) don't pay enough attention to making our NCO's more part of the strategy and planning loop.
---The role of the infantry has also been revelatory. Again coming back to the Russian BTG's the lack of manpower in BTG to some of the basic stuff seems to have come back to bite them. So as we look at IBGs and combined arms ops the role of the infantry has to be clearly laid out so that gains from the Armr and mech forces are exploited fully.
---Most importantly be very clear in objectives and use overwhelming force. Half arsed approaches like in Ukraine have resulted in needless Russian casualties.
---Information warfare is another area that is very important. As much as the battle itself is important the control of the narrative has potency in itself. If you look at our own experience time and again the DGISPR of the Pak Army seems to have been more effective in the PR side. The Ukrainians are running rings around the Russians I am sure that this spin has also added to the spine of the Ukranian people / armed forces.

Look I am no expert but there are just my thoughts.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by brar_w »

IN a modern battlefield ISR is the new king of battle. Without capable, survivable, and layered ISR capability you cannot generate and regenerate rapid targeting that you need which makes the tens of thousands of missiles one is advocating quite redundant. Targeting (via ISR and survivable and resilient C2) is the precursor and similarly C-ISR and counter targeting a very important mission for both sides.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Jay »

ks_sachin wrote:
- Operational strategy and tactics have to be very closely aligned to the overall strategic aim of the government (the armed forces are an instrument of state policy). In Ukraine, there seems to be a disconnect.

---Most importantly be very clear in objectives and use overwhelming force. Half arsed approaches like in Ukraine have resulted in needless Russian casualties.
It's amazing how Russia dropped the ball in the above two things. It points to a systemic rot in their war fighting and decision making capabilities. The world is seeing an emperor lose his clothes in real time. Its very unnerving. I guess this is not the right thread for this discussion, so I'll stop it here.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by ramana »

shaun the Mi-17 V-5 version is quite a capable helicopter.
Arming it with SPIKE is a good thing.
Let us not critique even good things.
Mi-17V-5 weapon systems
Mi-17V-5 is armed with Shturm-V missiles, S-8 rockets, a 23mm machine gun, PKT machine guns, and AKM sub-machine guns. It features eight firing posts for aiming the weapons.

The onboard armament allows the crew to engage enemy personnel, armoured vehicles, land-based targets, fortified fire posts, and other fixed and moving targets.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by shaun »

ramana wrote:shaun the Mi-17 V-5 version is quite a capable helicopter.
Arming it with SPIKE is a good thing.
Let us not critique even good things.
Mi-17V-5 weapon systems
Mi-17V-5 is armed with Shturm-V missiles, S-8 rockets, a 23mm machine gun, PKT machine guns, and AKM sub-machine guns. It features eight firing posts for aiming the weapons.

The onboard armament allows the crew to engage enemy personnel, armoured vehicles, land-based targets, fortified fire posts, and other fixed and moving targets.
No doubt there , mi17 carrying 4 spike NLOS is a great asset and compliment our combat hepter fleet. But proliferation of SAM and absence of comprehensive defensive aids with less manoeuvrability compared to attack hepters make them vernable .

More over for spike NLOS "man in the loop " is the preferred mode of operation for long distance targets. It's IIR seeker failed in summer trials . What it essentially means , hepter can not shoot and scoot as it needs to guide the missile to its target , for maximum range it will be around 6 mins to impact . Complicating matter is there is not yet a way to automate and consolidate the Salvo concept onto to a single helicopter with Spike NLOS. Also i have few questions like 32 km range achieved at what altitude and corresponding warhead carried , whether the max advertised 32 km range achievable from sea level launch .
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Pratyush »

shaun wrote: More over for spike NLOS "man in the loop " is the preferred mode of operation for long distance targets. It's IIR seeker failed in summer trials . What it essentially means , hepter can not shoot and scoot as it needs to guide the missile to its target , for maximum range it will be around 6 mins to impact . Complicating matter is there is not yet a way to automate and consolidate the Salvo concept onto to a single helicopter with Spike NLOS. Also i have few questions like 32 km range achieved at what altitude and corresponding warhead carried , whether the max advertised 32 km range achievable from sea level launch .
1) Why should the helicopter need to stick around after launching a non line of sight missile. It's free to maneuver in 3 dimensions. Both before and after the launch.

2) can you share the published data that suggests an engagement time of 6 minutes .

3) why is a salvo operation difficult to accomplish. If multiple target's are clustered arround then the missiles can very well be fired as a salvo. While the second and third missiles are guided to the target later on.

4) the missile also have a lock on before launching. Which by definition means that multiple missiles can be launched at different targets as a slavo.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by shaun »

Pratyush wrote:
shaun wrote: More over for spike NLOS "man in the loop " is the preferred mode of operation for long distance targets. It's IIR seeker failed in summer trials . What it essentially means , hepter can not shoot and scoot as it needs to guide the missile to its target , for maximum range it will be around 6 mins to impact . Complicating matter is there is not yet a way to automate and consolidate the Salvo concept onto to a single helicopter with Spike NLOS. Also i have few questions like 32 km range achieved at what altitude and corresponding warhead carried , whether the max advertised 32 km range achievable from sea level launch .
1) Why should the helicopter need to stick around after launching a non line of sight missile. It's free to maneuver in 3 dimensions. Both before and after the launch.

2) can you share the published data that suggests an engagement time of 6 minutes .

3) why is a salvo operation difficult to accomplish. If multiple target's are clustered arround then the missiles can very well be fired as a salvo. While the second and third missiles are guided to the target later on.

4) the missile also have a lock on before launching. Which by definition means that multiple missiles can be launched at different targets as a slavo.
The answer lies with our procurement of Spike LR , it's IIR seeker failed in summer trials but it have also electro-optical seeker with automatic target recognition which went to its advantage . This man in the loop system trusted by IA and dozens of other users, and is the main selling point of this missile.

Salvo operation can not be accomplished is from an article in flight global. spike LR have similar capability but short range and have fiber optic link. Regarding engagement time , this missile is in development for last many decades , with problem in EO targeting because of speed . The latest iteration have large x wings making it more manoeuvrable with velocity of 130 meter per seceond making it easy for operator to search and lock on targets , speed will be more for heli launched .

As for point 1 , yes you are right as I haven't considered the range of data link , it is more as Rafael said range of the missile can be extended when released from higher altitude retaining all the capabilities .
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Barath »

https://mobile.twitter.com/RealAirPower ... 9728295937

Unclear about reliability/veracity, but if true, might be a way out of the VSHORAD RFP issues with Igla-s.
Rheinmetall was apparently blacklistedwhen the 2010 rfp controversies took place
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by kit »

A question for Gurus , brar-w esp

The foreign missiles with active (or passive!) guidance/navigation systems and those deployed on vehicles / helicopters., aircraft etc ., can they be activated remotely? How does one ensure this cannot be used to spy on user country?
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by fanne »

very much possible. More complex system, higher the probability.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Rahul M »

Jay wrote:
Remember how Pakis were able to hear IAF comms during the entire Balakot saga?
.
Huh?? When did that happen??
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Aditya_V »

I guess there is a difference between Paki claims and the Truth- if did as well they claimed , only a few trees lost, no F16 loss and an SU-30 loss- they would have shutdown thier airspace for 4 months after the Balakot Saga which resulted in a 20 Rs depreciation in the PKR.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Pratyush »

Didn't TSP win in propoganda and India both on the ground and in the air.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Aditya_V »

Pratyush wrote:Didn't TSP win in propoganda and India both on the ground and in the air.
Only in Al Jazeera, BBC, CNN, NDTV, newsrooms etc.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by ritesh »

Aditya_V wrote:
Pratyush wrote:Didn't TSP win in propoganda and India both on the ground and in the air.
Only in Al Jazeera, BBC, CNN, NDTV, newsrooms etc.
Sirjee, Information/Disinformation is the 21st century battle ground since '91 gulf war-1.

Cant let the enemy run away with their propaganda campaign unchallenged?

What lessons does GoI and military establishment is willing to learn from Rus-Ukr conflict?
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Aditya_V »

Propaganda war is not by Pakistan- its entire 3.5 allies, so grin and bear it for now. Without Western support Paki propaganda would be worth less than a used C*****.So no point beating ourselves over it.

We probably have evidence of F16 shootdown but have been forced to keep shut. For eg many in POK uploaded of the F-16 shootdown before the Internet backout and subsequent youtube videos being blocked, I am NRO and other GOI agencies have them, including twitter photos of the Paki pilot dying in ACH Rawalpindi. So no point picking up this fight which we cannot win at this point of time. Focus on the real battles along with Atmanirbhir media which is forming.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Barath »

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/152 ... gp4Kg&s=19

Saurav Jha : over 2000 akash missiles have been produced
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Aditya_V »

Barath wrote:https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/152 ... gp4Kg&s=19

Saurav Jha : over 2000 Akash missiles have been produced
I think that is on the lesser Side, in 2010 IAF Ordered 8 Squadrons and Indian Army ordered 2 Regiments -

IAF =75*2+125*6= 900 Missiles
IA= 1000*2= 2000missiles.

After that there have significant orders of in 2015,2019 and 2022- expected. With IAF and IA small orders in between. I suspect much more than 2000 missiles have been produced.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by mody »

The Akash Prime (Akash 1S), with the indigenous RF seeker was tested again recently. Can the older missiles in service be upgraded with the new RF seeker module?
With the new Akash NG missile also being tested, which has solid rocket motor and the indigenous seeker, a new fire control radar and a longer range, why would new missile squadrons of the Akash Prime be required?

What is the maximum range of Akash NG supposed to be? Will it be the same as Barak-8 or lower and which is the fire control radar being used with the Akash NG missile?
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by mody »

https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/other/fr ... 7956932e59

A number of Tests for air to air and air to ground weapons are planned in the coming days/weeks.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by ramana »

Great News.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by bharathp »

DRDO is also planning to conduct the first test of Astra-3, based on the solid fuel-based ducted ramjet (SFDR) propulsion to enhance its range to 350-km, by the end of this year, the sources said.
from: https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/other/fr ... 7956932e59

thats the best one for me
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by ashishvikas »

Updates by Indrani1_Roy

Some additions:
1. Astra Mk2 unguided ballistic launch has been successful. New tests against targets.
2. Astra Mk1 is akready flying with indigeneous seekers. New tests with AESA-based seekers.

https://twitter.com/Indrani1_Roy/status ... GzlAw&s=19


What do u mean by ballastic launch ? From ground or aircraft.
Motor fired. No target. From aircraft.

https://twitter.com/Indrani1_Roy/status ... psDjA&s=19
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by kit »

Image


The Glide Fire SSM could be a hypersonic glide vehicle that can be fired from vertical launcher of both existing and future ships that will have the ability to maneuver and operate at low altitudes.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/RAFIndia_/status/15 ... LlU9iud8gw ---> Indian Air Force is reportedly set to test improved Astra Mk1 and maiden test of Astra Mk2 this month with a Su-30MKI. Furthermore, test for Astra Mk3 integrated with Solid Fuel Ducted Ramjet (SFDR) is planned to be tested by year end.

https://twitter.com/RAFIndia_/status/15 ... LlU9iud8gw ---> Improved Astra Mk1 will feature an indigenous Radar Frequency (RF) seeker with better precision and range as compared to the Russian counterpart (borrowed from R-77 missile) that is presently fitted on limited series production units.

Image

https://twitter.com/RAFIndia_/status/15 ... LlU9iud8gw ---> Astra Mk2 is a next generation variant that employs dual pulse rocket motor, offering high agility, speed and accuracy against airborne targets within 160km range.

Image

https://twitter.com/RAFIndia_/status/15 ... LlU9iud8gw ---> Astra Mk3 is powered by Solid Fuel Ducted Ramjet (SFDR) propulsion and will be employed to target adversaries at extreme long ranges.

Image
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/8r02s125558/status/ ... LlU9iud8gw ---> Ground trials of DRDO NASM-SR on a Sea King helicopter of Indian Navy. This anti-ship missile will go on all naval helicopters used by Navy.

Image
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by mody »

https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/other/dr ... c2af1e78c3

The above article is classic DDM. Sample this:

"What is Agni?

Agni is a surface-to-surface missile launched from the ground to strike targets on land or sea. It can be fired from handheld weapons or ground installations, and can be mounted on to vehicles or ships. Since the launching platform is typically stationary or moving slowly, it is powered by a rocket engine or an explosive charge. Agni missiles have fins or wings for lift and stability, although hypervelocity or short-range missiles may use body lift or fly a ballistic trajectory. "


A handheld launcher for the Agni series missiles!!!! :rotfl:

the surprising thing is the authors credentials:
(Author is Aerospace & Defence Analyst & Director, ADD Engineering Components (India) Pvt Ltd. Views expressed are personal and do not reflect the official position or policy of Financial Express Online. Reproducing this content without permission is prohibited).

Now, either the editors have made a real hash of the article or the ADD Engg. Components has some major problems.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by basant »

Finally explosive charge for propulsion instead of rocket engine! Dreams do come true!
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by John »

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/8r02s125558/status/ ... LlU9iud8gw ---> Ground trials of DRDO NASM-SR on a Sea King helicopter of Indian Navy. This anti-ship missile will go on all naval helicopters used by Navy.
I do think missile should have much higher range launched from ACs, I do hope we work on integrating them with our ACs while we wait for ER.
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