Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

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Nalla Baalu
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Nalla Baalu »

Another clip from chase helicopter, albeit low resolution, from Tarmak@writetake:

https://mobile.twitter.com/writetake/st ... fWpbAqAAAA
Kakarat wrote:https://twitter.com/DRDO_India/status/1 ... TvaEebsYPw (DRDO Video)
#DRDOforIndia |Naval Anti Ship Missile successfully flight tested today from ITR, Chandipur. This is the first indigenous air launched Anti-Ship Missile system for @indiannavy.
Karan M
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Karan M »

Prem Kumar wrote:Super cool!

Am trying to understand the usage here. What kind of surface targets will allow a Sea King to get within 50 Kms to launch the missile?

Is it for prosecuting targets like ASW Corvettes which may not have an anti-air element? Or anti-piracy or just plain old intimidation?
Think small boats without AD but AShM used for swarming tactics. And a, low flying Sea King can approach close enough to even capital ships.
Prem Kumar
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Prem Kumar »

ramana wrote:Usually, the explosives are 40 to 50% of the warhead's weight. As the writer is alluding to fire damage there could be pyro material like Aluminium etc in the metal casing.
Looks like a new type of warhead is developed.
Ramana: there is Twitter chatter on a new "EFP warhead" for the NASM, to increase its lethality.

Here is an older tweet talking about it first: https://twitter.com/strategic_front/sta ... 08?lang=en

There is a good chance that the NASM series (SR/MR/LR) will be a multi-platform missile. Because of its smaller size & weight, it can be fit on helicopters and smaller ships, which cannot carry the Brahmos/Uran/Klub
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by mody »

The Seaking used to carry the SeaEagle missile and the MH-60R can carry the Harpoon Block-II. Hence, the weight or size of the missile that medium sized helicopters can carry, should't be problem. The NASM would be an ideal fit for the ALH MK-III. The Seaking too can be equipped with the Harpoon if required, but the helis are old and will progressively be retired once the MH-60R enter service.

Most of the small paki boats and patrol vessels don't have integrated SAMs and might be making do with Manpads. A low flying helicopter can manage to get close to these type of ships and fire off a missile from 50 Kms range. However, still the use case seems fairly limited.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by John »

mody wrote:The Seaking used to carry the SeaEagle missile and the MH-60R can carry the Harpoon Block-II. Hence, the weight or size of the missile that medium sized helicopters can carry, should't be problem. The NASM would be an ideal fit for the ALH MK-III. The Seaking too can be equipped with the Harpoon if required, but the helis are old and will progressively be retired once the MH-60R enter service.

Most of the small paki boats and patrol vessels don't have integrated SAMs and might be making do with Manpads. A low flying helicopter can manage to get close to these type of ships and fire off a missile from 50 Kms range. However, still the use case seems fairly limited.
I don’t believe MH-60s can carry Harpoon they are being integrated to carry NSM and there were discussions of procuring NSM.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Pratyush »

Mass of the Harpoon is well within the lifting capacity of the MH60. But i am unable to actually find out if it's actually depolyed off the MH60.

Though the penguin missile was deployed off the chopper before the NSM.

PS: i have seen pictures of AH 64s armed with 4 harpoon dating back to 1980s.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by kit »

An EFP eight inches [20 cm] in diameter threw a seven-pound [3 kg] copper slug at Mach 6, or 2,000 meters per second. (A .50-caliber bullet, among the most devastating projectiles on the battlefield, weighs less than two ounces [57 g] and has a muzzle velocity of 900 meters per second.)

Thats makes the EFP one of the most destructive warheads
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by ramana »

Prem Kumar wrote:
ramana wrote:Usually, the explosives are 40 to 50% of the warhead's weight. As the writer is alluding to fire damage there could be pyro material like Aluminium etc in the metal casing.
Looks like a new type of warhead is developed.
Ramana: there is Twitter chatter on a new "EFP warhead" for the NASM, to increase its lethality.

Here is an older tweet talking about it first: https://twitter.com/strategic_front/sta ... 08?lang=en

There is a good chance that the NASM series (SR/MR/LR) will be a multi-platform missile. Because of its smaller size & weight, it can be fit on helicopters and smaller ships, which cannot carry the Brahmos/Uran/Klub
German Kormorant Missile had a similar EFP warhead that goes off after penetrating the deck.
it was designed by Manfred Held, a great weapons designer.
I saw some after-effects pictures in a journal of the Kormorant warhead. Its shreds in all directions!!!
Quite a complex warhead as it has to create so many EFPs.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Pratyush »

What's the real difference between EFP and a shaped charge?

I always thought that they were the same concept.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Vayutuvan »

Pratyush wrote:What's the real difference between EFP and a shaped charge?

I always thought that they were the same concept.
Here you go. EPF is a type of shaped charge.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaped_charge#Variants
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by ramana »

There is a video of SAAW hitting an aircraft hanger.
Very precise hit.

https://twitter.com/Kunal_Biswas707/sta ... Dnk7DpxE8g
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by ramana »

I recall people going ooh ah! about SDB.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Prem Kumar »

Nice video!

The IAF seems to like it, its been tested multiple times, is cheap & 32 can be carried in by a single Su-30 MKI. What's the hold up in ordering it in the 1000s?
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Pratyush »

Prem Kumar wrote:Nice video!

The IAF seems to like it, its been tested multiple times, is cheap & 32 can be carried in by a single Su-30 MKI. What's the hold up in ordering it in the 1000s?

Solar, lunar and Titan trials?
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Pratyush »

ramana wrote:There is a video of SAAW hitting an aircraft hanger.
Very precise hit.

https://twitter.com/Kunal_Biswas707/sta ... Dnk7DpxE8g
As a glide weapon it should be able to enter from the front/back door as well.

Truly a formidable capacity.

Fix a micro turbofan engine to it and you have a vehicle that can hit a target upto 200 kms away.

Add the Helina/ SAINT lock on after launch seeker capacity and kill tanks from 60 + kms away.

Or add the new light Anti ship missile seeker with a turbo fan and glide body and kill ships from 100s of kms away.


Oh boy, so many new possibilities have opened up with this weapon.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by ldev »

ramana wrote:I recall people going ooh ah! about SDB.
SAAW is roughly equivalent (weapon & warhead weight and launch distance ~100-110 km) to SDB 1 or the original SDB in service since 2006 which relies on INS and GPS and is used against fixed targets. SDB 2, in service since 2020, has a trimode seeker (MMW radar, IIR and semi active laser) which enables interdiction of moving targets from ~70 km in all weather conditions, day and night and through dust etc. typical on a battlefield e.g. targeting individual vehicles of a convoy on the move, armor or artillery on the move etc.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by John »

Pratyush wrote:Mass of the Harpoon is well within the lifting capacity of the MH60. But i am unable to actually find out if it's actually depolyed off the MH60.

Though the penguin missile was deployed off the chopper before the NSM.

PS: i have seen pictures of AH 64s armed with 4 harpoon dating back to 1980s.
Harpoon has never integrated with MH60 and given the small paltry amount we have that is barely enough for P-8s I doubt we will pay for any such integration and go with NSM or use NASM-SR.

As for AH-64 with harpoons I think you are referring to Sea Apache which was proposal which never made it past drawing board?
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Pratyush »

https://idrw.org/india-to-scale-up-astr ... roduction/

The desire is to produce 100 missiles per year.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by ramana »

Pratyush wrote:https://idrw.org/india-to-scale-up-astr ... roduction/

The desire is to produce 100 missiles per year.
The goal is 100 missiles per year.
Currently, trial production of 50 missiles is complete and in squadron service.
Looks like IAF wants to equip Su-30MKI and Mig-29 UP in order to phase out the R-77 missiles.
Tejas seems a lesser priority as numbers are small and they have the Derby BVR.
Definitely has something to do with the aftermath of Balakot firing solutions humbug answer.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Prem Kumar »

Yes. But given the Balakot situation and how the R-77s fell short, shouldn't the IAF be ordering Astra-1 in the several hundreds for the entire Sukhoi fleet? What more is left to be proven in the missile?

The IAF is increasingly looking like the IA, who even 2 decades after Kargil, is yet to induct artillery in numbers.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by konaseema »

It appears that IAF is waiting for Astra 2 program to mature and order them in numbers and not order too many of the Astra 1. Maybe they have purchased a lot of imported missiles and don't want to stockpile Astra 1's while a better / longer range missile is in works.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by vimal »

konaseema wrote:It appears that IAF is waiting for Astra 2 program to mature and order them in numbers and not order too many of the Astra 1. Maybe they have purchased a lot of imported missiles and don't want to stockpile Astra 1's while a better / longer range missile is in works.
:rotfl: :rotfl: you seem new here saar
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by basant »

Sorry in advance for a little rant.

There was a time when it was believed that the best defense against the Chinese was not to develop infra at the border so that they cannot advance. Obviously, this is a winning formula where our adversaries do not attack us as we are not properly armed (yet). The best proof that such a scheme works is the Arjun MBT, where refusal of PA to develop adequate bridges for its transit on their side crumpled the program.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by konaseema »

vimal wrote:
konaseema wrote:It appears that IAF is waiting for Astra 2 program to mature and order them in numbers and not order too many of the Astra 1. Maybe they have purchased a lot of imported missiles and don't want to stockpile Astra 1's while a better / longer range missile is in works.
:rotfl: :rotfl: you seem new here saar
You are right. I am new as a BRFite (Trainee) but have been following the forum for more than a decade. Trying to find some rationale from an (otherwise) irrational armed forces of our country!!!
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by ks_sachin »

konaseema wrote:
vimal wrote: :rotfl: :rotfl: you seem new here saar
You are right. I am new as a BRFite (Trainee) but have been following the forum for more than a decade. Trying to find some rationale from an (otherwise) irrational armed forces of our country!!!
Just because you cannot find a reason saar does not make the armed forces irrational. Best to say you don't know.
Remember the CAPEX is finite and sinking money into Astra Mk1 if the Mk2 is just around the corner makes little sense. I do think that the IAF has a high degree of confidence in the DRDO delivering on aerial weapons. The IAF cannot just stockpile missiles as these have a shelf life. They are better of stockpiling missiles that they believe will give them the qualitative edge. I have not seen the hankering after a A2A missile similar to the Astra - unless I am mistaken.
Then there is also the issue of production capacity. If BDL takes 2 years for an order of 200 missiles say then the IAF may say well we are fairly confident that the Mk2 is going to be ready well before that..

So just saying....but I don't know for sure and I will leave it at that rather than calling the forces names.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Pratyush »

An induction of a new weapons systems
has the following steps to be undertaken before it reaches fleetwide utilisation.

1) Aircraft has to be certified and modified to fire the missile.

2) The pilot briefed and trained about it's engagement characteristics.

3) The storage and arming instructions to the base armoururs.

In a large airforce such as IAF, it will take a great deal of time to bring nearly the entire force upto the mark in terms of utilisation of the missile to it's full potential.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by konaseema »

Folks, It is just my view. I have the same view when the IAF doesn't order LCH or more Tejas Mk1A's. Looks like I pressed the wrong nerve of a few here. Apparently the oldie's of this forum have more insight into the ordering strategy of the armed forces and still do the rona dona every few weeks. What I express here is based on the news that is available to the public and the links shared in this forum and I don't know anything more than that. If you guys find IA, IN & IAF as rational when it comes to ordering home made platforms (Arjun, Artillery, Tejas, LCH, LUH, ALH Mk III etc), then I am wrong and you all have my sincere apologies.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Pratyush »

No need to apologise. We are all on the same side. We are just somewhat cynical about Indian armed forces and the use of indigenous equipment. But don't worry, we are moving in the right direction. The pace is substantially slower than what we want it to be. But we are moving forward. That's what matters.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by VickyAvinash »

konaseema wrote:It appears that IAF is waiting for Astra 2 program to mature and order them in numbers and not order too many of the Astra 1. Maybe they have purchased a lot of imported missiles and don't want to stockpile Astra 1's while a better / longer range missile is in works.
I remember two of the logical reason put forward by former member Shiv (Hakeem), for not doing a bulk purchase of such missiles was (1) avoiding the risk of overnight bulk obsolescence and (2) slowly replacing oldest procured tranches by new ones. Later is because of budgetary limitations and life left in existing stock which can still be used for next few years. One thing is sure, IAF will slowly and steadily replace the old stock with indigenous weaponry as and when replacement time nears.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by ramana »

Wish reality was that.
When Astra Mk2 is available they will wait for Mk3.
That's the way it is.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by ks_sachin »

konaseema wrote:Folks, It is just my view. I have the same view when the IAF doesn't order LCH or more Tejas Mk1A's. Looks like I pressed the wrong nerve of a few here. Apparently the oldie's of this forum have more insight into the ordering strategy of the armed forces and still do the rona dona every few weeks. What I express here is based on the news that is available to the public and the links shared in this forum and I don't know anything more than that. If you guys find IA, IN & IAF as rational when it comes to ordering home made platforms (Arjun, Artillery, Tejas, LCH, LUH, ALH Mk III etc), then I am wrong and you all have my sincere apologies.
I am not saying that they are rational just because I took exception to your calling them irrational. I am just saying that I don't know what their thinking is and have a hypothesis. It seems that it is easy to call the forces - by armchair warriors - all kinds of names without truly knowing the reason and sometimes we will not know and it is alright to say we don't know. That is one reason why some of the gents who have served and were part of this forum have left BRF for good.
And yes I am defensive as despite all the criticisms they are the one institution where there is some kind of morality and loyalty that exists.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by konaseema »

Thanks for everyone's feedback and appreciate your support. I respect and admire our forces wholeheartedly. I have always tried to find a rationale in our procurements. Maybe I ran out of one in this case. Thanks again!
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by ks_sachin »

konaseema wrote:Thanks for everyone's feedback and appreciate your support. I respect and admire our forces wholeheartedly. I have always tried to find a rationale in our procurements. Maybe I ran out of one in this case. Thanks again!
No hard feelings.
There are enough things wrong within the armed forces that we can pick a bone with.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Prem Kumar »

ramana wrote:Wish reality was that.
When Astra Mk2 is available they will wait for Mk3.
That's the way it is.
Yes. Even if we assume the best of intentions, this is flawed-thinking. Tech always moves forward. By the time you are done inducting one version, the next version is ready. But in order for the next version to be ready, the previous version must see significant production use for real-life-feedback, production stabilization/tooling, return on capital etc. Plus previous versions become good export material. There will never be a *nirvana* state where all weapons are in their final, perfect configuration - which can be inducted in the 1000s.

They seem to think that Astra-1, Nirbhay-1, Arjun Mk-1, Tejas-Mk1 etc are all appetizers. Take a few bites, while perennially waiting for the main course to arrive.

Ironically, the same people who want the shiniest new toy are the ones who keep flogging 1960s design Mig-21s and letting their pilots risk their lives in them. The cognitive dissonance is quite stark to watch from the outside.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by ldev »

konaseema wrote:It appears that IAF is waiting for Astra 2 program to mature and order them in numbers and not order too many of the Astra 1. Maybe they have purchased a lot of imported missiles and don't want to stockpile Astra 1's while a better / longer range missile is in works.
As others have pointed out, all missiles have a shelf life so it may not make sense to produce and stockpile them in the thousands. Also I am sure that the IAF planning takes into account what the PLAAF and PAF possess. The PAF has recently inducted the PL-15E with the J-10 as a response to India's Rafale acquisition with the Meteor. The advertised range of the PL-15E is 145 km, open source information states that the range of Astra 1 is ~100 km vs a much lower range in practice for the RVV-AE that it will replace. The only way to validate these different ranges is when the rubber meets the road and there is another Feb 22 style clash and nobody can organize that clash like a boxing style tournament, where a heavy weight boxer only fights another heavy weight boxer or where the Rafale + Meteor combo will only face the J-10 + PL-15E combo!! And the SU-30 + Astra 1 will face off against the F-16 + AMRAAM C5!! So it makes sense for the IAF to acquire the minimum number of Astra 1 it needs and to keep it's powder dry for Astra 2 to become operational.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Aditya_V »

I don't agree, First Pakis will have very PL 15 for their J-10, better to increase Astra 1 production numbers which will get the production eco system running, which in turn will lead to faster Astra 2 and SFDCR induction in numbers.

Nothing beats domestically produced solution that too in numbers-Plus numbers also matter, extra missiles also help in mission kills, bogies in the right position for right kill.

There are JF-17s, F-7PG, Mirage iii/V, F-16s to kill. Plus 6 J-10 inducted with 19 more for induction. 145Km advertised range of PL15E, we do not know what circumstances, High altitude to low altitude flying Helo, or with 2 fighters flying head on with the Bogie aircraft closing in towards the missile even after launch? what is Maneuverability, tail chase range.

I think DRDO is far more conservative giving Head on and tail chase ranges.

Further, regarding R-77 we have more than enough SU-30, Mig 21 Bison, Mig 29's and even Tejas (if IAF decides to integrated) to use the numbers acquired easily.

So this drip drip orders make no sense, smart strategy would be get the Astra 1 production in numbers and integrated with much of the fleet which will lead to faster Astra 2 and SFDCR in numbers. PAF will be very careful in exposing J-10 with PL 15E combo, I dont think their inventory is anywhere near their Amraam numbers for fire them willy nilly like on 27 Feb 19 - 5 on SU-30 2 on MIg 21 Bisions for 1 Kill ( talk about Amraam being Slammer). and then damage their economy further by closing their airspace for 4 months.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Kakarat »

https://twitter.com/DefenceMinIndia/sta ... 5opo0gNpCw
The MoD today signed a contract with M/s Bharat Dynamics Ltd. for supply of ASTRA MK-I Beyond Visual Range (BVR) Air to Air Missile (AAM) and associated equipment for the Indian Air Force & Indian Navy at a cost of Rs 2971 Crores under Buy (Indian-IDDM) category.
https://twitter.com/DefenceMinIndia/sta ... 5opo0gNpCw
Till now, the technology to manufacture missile of this class indigenously was not available.

The Transfer of Technology from DRDO to BDL for production of ASTRA MK-I missile and all associated systems has been completed and production at BDL is in progress.
https://twitter.com/DefenceMinIndia/sta ... 5opo0gNpCw
This project will act as a catalyst for development of Infrastructure and Testing facilities at BDL. It will also create opportunities for several MSMEs in aerospace technology for a period of at least 25 years.
https://twitter.com/DefenceMinIndia/sta ... 5opo0gNpCw
The project essentially embodies the spirit of ‘Atmanirbhar Bharat’ and will help facilitate realising our country’s journey towards self-reliance in Air to Air Missiles.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Prem Kumar »

Fantastic news & timely, considering that we were lamenting just now the lack of orders beyond the first 240 for Mk1.

At 7-8 Crores a pop, this translates to ~400 missiles, assuming all of it goes towards the missiles and not training/infra etc.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Aditya_V »

Excellent News, Rs. 2971 Crore should be around 400 missiles , so that makes 50 Order in 2018, 299 Missiles for Airforce and Navy in 2020 and now 400 more, so Astra 1 orders are 749 with around 20 used up in various trials.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Prem Kumar »

I think it is 50 + 248 + today's order
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