Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

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Pratyush
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Pratyush »

Is this lot of 40 missiles similar to what was done with Astra before the production orders were placed for it.
Indranil wrote:The final configuration of Helina/Dhruvastra is now clear to me. The sustainer lies ahead of the booster. The Booster uses a blast tube and fixed nozzle+JVC at the back. The sustainer uses 2 lateral nozzles.

40 such missiles are being prepared.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Karan M »

Pratyush wrote:Is this lot of 40 missiles similar to what was done with Astra before the production orders were placed for it.
Indranil wrote:The final configuration of Helina/Dhruvastra is now clear to me. The sustainer lies ahead of the booster. The Booster uses a blast tube and fixed nozzle+JVC at the back. The sustainer uses 2 lateral nozzles.

40 such missiles are being prepared.
Yes, and any final trials etc. Nag has cleared them.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by jamwal »

Is it just me or did these Akash launchers had 3 missiles instead of two? Or the missile in the middle has been fired?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by AdityaM »

It's a wooden dummy
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/GODOFPARADOXES/stat ... 63877?s=20 ---> Astra Mk2 is the next in DRDO family of BVRAAMs after Astra Mk1. It will nearly double the range & NEZ of Astra Mk1. Design configurations are available in public & shown in the infograph though it is possible final design might be different. IMO it is both rail & ejector launch capable.

Image
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Karan M »

AdityaM wrote:It's a wooden dummy
Not a dummy.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Karan M »

jamwal wrote:Is it just me or did these Akash launchers had 3 missiles instead of two? Or the missile in the middle has been fired?

Image
Middle one has been test fired.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by jaysimha »

Inside the world of India’s most advanced and lethal missiles
By PBNS
ATMANIRBHAR BHARAT NATIONAL NEWS
July 31, 2021
https://newsonair.com/2021/07/31/inside ... -missiles/

Here is a look at India’s most lethal missiles:

☻BrahMos Supersonic Cruise Missile
☻Agni 5
☻Agni P Ballistic Missile
☻Agni-IV
☻Shaurya
☻Agni-III
☻Agni-II
☻Prahaar
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by jamwal »

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/b ... 2021-08-28
BrahMos missile manufacturing unit in UP to provide 15,000 jobs
The BrahMos missile manufacturing project in Uttar Pradesh's Defence Corridor will provide direct employment to about 500 engineers and technicians and create thousands of other jobs.
ttar Pradesh is soon going to play an important role in the defence sector. In fact, there is a plan to produce the next generation of BrahMos missile in Lucknow, the capital of the state. The state government will make available land and other facilities for this. The BrahMos Aerospace will manufacture the next generation BrahMos missile at the Lucknow node of the UP Defence Corridor.

The project will provide direct employment to about 500 engineers and technicians. Apart from this, 5,000 people will get indirect employment. With the establishment of ancillary units related to the defence industry, about 10,000 people will get employment.

Dr Sudhir Kumar Mishra, Chief Executive Officer and Managing Director of BrahMos Aerospace met CM Yogi Adityanath on Tuesday. He told the Chief Minister that there is a plan to produce 100 missiles of BrahMos in Lucknow in the next three years under the Uttar Pradesh Defence Industrial Corridor. At present, these missiles are being manufactured in Nagpur and Hyderabad in the country.
100 missiles in 3 years in just UP. Seems like we are manufacturing 100+ annually already.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/GODOFPARADOXES/stat ... 68200?s=20 ---> Astra Mk1 launcher with bidirectional datalink (DL).

Launcher with 2-way DL allows for mid-course updates, re-targeting & buddy mode engagement (CEC) while missile is in flight.

DL also allows transmission of info such as kinematic status & target acquisition by missile seeker.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by ashishvikas »

Rs 14,000 crore 'Make in India' boost for Indian Army through Akash missiles, ALH Dhruv choppers procurement

https://aninews.in/news/national/genera ... 830154548/
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Aditya_V »

Nice, news report also mentions Akash NG, I guess 3DCar etc of existing Akash Regiments can be used with battery level Akash Ng and older Akash can be moved to less sensitive airbases
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Karan M »

Akash 1S not NG
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/GODOFPARADOXES/stat ... 14821?s=20 ---> Akash Mk1S.

IMO, Akash Mk1S employs a dual guidance scheme with a unique combo of

1. Ku band active radar seeker
2. C & X band command guidance

As shown in the infographic Akash Mk1S in addition to the newly added radar retains the original command guidance antennas.

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John
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by John »

^ I believe the author is confusing command guidance with mid course guidance that still likely to be utilized along with active guidance in terminal phase for Akash 1S.

So 1S is still likely to retain the antenna for receiving guidance information not for command guidance but for mid course guidance.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by brar_w »

Yes some clarity there would be helpful. Mid-course guidance is just that, you update the missile with information based on a radar uplink, or a separate uplink transmitter and a data-link receiver (or a dual T/R antenna) on the missile. SARH on the other hand counts on the missile being the receiver and either the radar, or a separate RF source being the illuminator. In that case, the illuminator is actively transmitting and the missile is using that information and passively homing on the target. Both forms are commonly employed while Mid-Course guidance in support of a terminal active seeker is now getting more common. The US navy has build all three on its new/upgraded interceptors i.e. Active, Active with Mid course Guidance (using data-links), and full SARH capability (Semi active guidance).
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by shaun »

Spike LR in service with IA have Fiber optic data link system through which it can guide the missile , where as NAG have 2 way RF data link for guidance . Advantage of Spike with Fiber optic data link is it can transmit live video , which i guess is not possible with RF data linked NAG . But i feel fiber optic data link will have all the disadvantages of wire guided missile in some scenarios . May be the lofted trajectory can minimize them to some extent . care to explain
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by John »

brar_w wrote:Yes some clarity there would be helpful. Mid-course guidance is just that, you update the missile with information based on a radar uplink, or a separate uplink transmitter and a data-link receiver (or a dual T/R antenna) on the missile.
Thanks brar, technically it is possible for missile that uses mid course guidance to utilize just that and not its radar for terminal guidance (thought doing that will reduce its hit probability due to latency)?
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by brar_w »

John wrote:
brar_w wrote:Yes some clarity there would be helpful. Mid-course guidance is just that, you update the missile with information based on a radar uplink, or a separate uplink transmitter and a data-link receiver (or a dual T/R antenna) on the missile.
Thanks brar, technically it is possible for missile that uses mid course guidance to utilize just that and not its radar for terminal guidance (thought doing that will reduce its hit probability due to latency)?
That takes you back to basically command guidance where each and every guidance (transmitting radar, receiving, tracking, and computing) task is being handled remotely and the missile is just communicating and adjusting its flight based on the signal. Many modern missiles have started including GPS so it should be a lot more accurate but you will still have to face the shortcomings associated with command guidance. Having both active (with/without mid-course updates which I guess depend on weapon range as short-medium may not need it) and dedicated SARH antennas in there helps build redundancy because it means that any defensive system has to be powerful enough to overcome multiple receivers. But I doubt that unless cost is a huge issue (very low cost interceptors) pure command guidance would be of practical use in a modern battlefield. For one it will likely come with a warhead penalty (you'd need a much larger warhead to compensate for reduced accuracy and effectiveness). Surely using a radar to command guide an interceptor equipped with a terminal seeker will reduce its effectiveness. Terminal seeker are getting really good and threats are getting advanced. Even X-band radars like the AN/TPY-2 which in theory should offer the best discrimination amongst BMD radars, still have interceptors that have to deal with PIP errors and make last minute corrections based on what they've acquired through their seekers. This is also relevant to slower air-breathing targets when in a CM environment.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by John »

brar_w wrote:But I doubt that unless cost is a huge issue (very low cost interceptors) pure command guidance would be of practical use in a modern battlefield. For one it will likely come with a warhead penalty (you'd need a much larger warhead to compensate for reduced accuracy and effectiveness). Surely using a radar to command guide an interceptor equipped with a terminal seeker will reduce its effectiveness.
Thanks Brar was trying to see what the author was coming from, yea it makes little sense to have CG when it has terminal seeker.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Haridas »

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/GODOFPARADOXES/stat ... 14821?s=20 ---> Akash Mk1S.

IMO, Akash Mk1S employs a dual guidance scheme with a unique combo of

1. Ku band active radar seeker
2. C & X band command guidance
What's unique here given it's been in vogue in AAM, and taught in text book and few decade old patent?

Laziness to not read makes my nephew unique in using issmart phone to take fotu. :roll:
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by brar_w »

John wrote:
brar_w wrote:But I doubt that unless cost is a huge issue (very low cost interceptors) pure command guidance would be of practical use in a modern battlefield. For one it will likely come with a warhead penalty (you'd need a much larger warhead to compensate for reduced accuracy and effectiveness). Surely using a radar to command guide an interceptor equipped with a terminal seeker will reduce its effectiveness.
Thanks Brar was trying to see what the author was coming from, yea it makes little sense to have CG when it has terminal seeker.
If the author is trying to pass on a dual band up/down link hardware (C/X band missile communication antennas are used in other missiles as well) as a separate command guidance mode than that's probably a stretch.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by mody »

https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/other/bi ... hp&pc=U531

IAF MSRSAM to be inducted today at Jaisalmer. Hopefully all 9 squadrons will be inducted in a short time, followed by Akash-NG. S400 is also likely to come by the end of the year and would get inducted before March 2022. QRSAM has also probably entered production for IA.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Pratyush »

Aren't Akash NG and MSRSAM missiles with similar ranges. Why build both.

Why not focus on one and mass produce it.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by shaun »

Boost to IAF’s air defence with new missile system for aerial threats
https://www.indiatoday.in/defence/story ... 2021-09-09
09 Sept 2019

The Indian Air Force received its first Medium Range Surface to Air Missile (MRSAM) system on Thursday. The missile system can destroy aircraft from a distance of 110 kilometres and is capable of launching 24 missiles on 16 targets simultaneously.
The system has been jointly developed by India’s Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) with Israel Aerospace Industries in line with ‘Make in India’ mantra, aimed at self-reliance in defence production.

The induction comes at a time when the Indian forces are looking to ramp up their capabilities against unconventional warfare that includes the use of drones. This is the first of the 18 firing units that will be handed over to the Indian Air Force.

Capabilities of MRSAM
Fitted with Israel’s Barack missile, the system is supersonic, which means it can travel at a lightning pace exceeding the speed of sound. It is designed to intercept targets like aircraft, missiles and other munitions.

The system can be transported in a short time, making it difficult for the adversary to mark its presence on the ground.
The missile system also has a short response time against traditional and advanced threats that are capable of covering a large area.
The induction ceremony took place in Jaisalmer where Union Defence Minister Rajnath Singh officially handed over the system to the Air Force on Thursday.

“I have full faith that in time to come, not only our defence sector will be self-reliant, but it will be a hub for defence manufacturing across the world. The road to reach there goes through programmes like this,” Rajnath Singh said.

Earlier the Indian Navy had received another version of the MRSAM and now the Indian Army’s requirements are also likely to be expedited.
“The project was delayed, but all issues could be resolved. The next project of MRSAM for the army will also speed up,” DRDO chairman Dr G Sateesh Reddy said.

Boaz Levy, the president of Israel Aerospace Industries said this was a result of great teamwork between India and Israel.

The new system comes to 2204 squadron called the Invincibles, which is based in Jaisalmer. It was resurrected in 2015 to come up in a new avatar with MRSAM.

The squadron was originally raised in Bhatinda on October 3, 1975, when it was equipped with Surface to Air Missile ‘Pechora’. It was relocated to Pune in 1993 before getting resurrected in 2015.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Vicky »

Pratyush wrote:Aren't Akash NG and MSRSAM missiles with similar ranges. Why build both.

Why not focus on one and mass produce it.
The joint development agreements for LRSAM/MRSAM were signed way back in the ye old days of 2007 and 2008 respectively. The contract was already signed and there in no going back without paying penalties to IAI. The pricing contract was issued in 2016. Akash-NG came about only in 2020 which is much later and only because DRDO tech matured pretty quickly after they figured out the seeker in Astra which led to QRSAM and Akash-NG. Back in 2013 to 2016 , MoD probably didn't have trust in DRDO to deliver many new projects especially as the DRDO component of LRSAM/MRSAM was itself delayed extensively due to tech challenges with the motor and actuators. Maitri collab with MBDA was also a hot topic then but DRDO seems to have fought hard to force services to drop that idea and give the go ahead for QRSAM.

As far as the question of why approve Akash-NG when MRSAM is already in the works - Not much idea but it probably was just an incremental successor to the original Akash program which could have been pitched as a more cost effective component. I believe Parrikar cut down the order size for MRSAM when pricing contract was signed around 2016 taking DRDO's progress and plans in missiles and radars into account.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Karan M »

Pratyush wrote:Aren't Akash NG and MSRSAM missiles with similar ranges. Why build both.

Why not focus on one and mass produce it.
Akash NG is completely Indian through and through. MRSAM's seekers and radar are of Israeli design and origin, IP control and modifications rest with them.
As far as the question of why approve Akash-NG when MRSAM is already in the works - Not much idea but it probably was just an incremental successor to the original Akash program which could have been pitched as more cost effective component.
It is not that anymore. It will likely match the MRSAM performance in most and even exceed it in several areas.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by John »

Don’t forget IAF is also backing VL-SRSAM.

I wouldn’t be surprised a mobile shorad system doesn’t come out of DRDO manpad effort. Catching up pretty quickly with China and Russia on number of different land based air defense systems.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/143 ... 62902?s=20 ---> Using an indigenous seeker in the MRSAM/LRSAM family is no big deal. Even indigenizing MF-STAR is not an issue. India is merely respecting the terms of the JV, as it usually does.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Aditya_V »

Plus it's not worth loosing the trust and future relationship with the Israelis
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Rakesh »

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/CestMoiz/status/143 ... 04130?s=20 ---> This brings me to another question - How long before we see an even longer range indigenous air defence missile system of ranges, say in excess of 200km? Going by the current development templates, I doubt that the day is far.

https://twitter.com/KesariDhwaj/status/ ... 92365?s=20 ---> XRSAM is under development. I think the range is in 150-200 km bracket.

https://twitter.com/Firezstarter1/statu ... 56771?s=20 ---> The S-400 is called because its long range telephone pole, can hit out at 400km. XRSAM is designed to offer similar capabilities with a baseline missile similar to a scaled up MRSAM equivalent, coupled to a large booster with TVC controls.

https://twitter.com/Firezstarter1/statu ... 31279?s=20 ---> What enables a program of this nature are of course the associated sensor technologies, both ground based units, and what's on the missile itself. A key area in replicating a S-400 class system would be to develop mobile TELs and TELARS, an area in which we have to invest.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Indranil »

1. Astra Mk1 is undergoing a change in propellant casting. I don't know why.
2. There is every sign the Astra Mk2 will look near identical to Astra Mk1.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by rohitvats »

I made these two maps to show how MRSAM deployment in general area of Jaisalmer is a genuine game-changer.

Following assumptions have been made:

- Firing Unit is same as a battery and comes with 1 x FCR (Israeli EL/M-2084 radar), and 3 x Launchers (8 x Ready-to-Fire missiles)

- Each Squadron has 2 x Firing Units.

- Given the network centric and stand-alone nature of these missile systems, the Firing Units are deployed in a distributed manner. The two FU are separated by ~100 km.

- Akash Missile (both batteries) are assumed to be co-located at Jaisalmer AFB for terminal defense with 30km radius.

What we're witnessing is an area-denial capability which did not exist earlier; we're finally moving to tiered SAM network. And while Air-Defense is a cat-mouse game between the defender and attacker, please remember that this is a NEW capability. Now, PAF has to factor in this capability while planning their ops. And dedicate more resources, and evolve more challenging mission profiles to ensure they're not shot out of the sky.

Map-01: Coverage radius of 60km, assuming MAX Range of 70 km

Image

Map-02: Coverage radius of 90km, assuming MAX Range of 100 km

Image
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by nam »

Indranil wrote: 2. There is every sign the Astra Mk2 will look near identical to Astra Mk1.
I personally felt that VL-SRSAM was the MK2. It has to be dual pulsed to achieve a 40KM range. Similar to what is planned for DP VL-Mica.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by John »

nam wrote:
Indranil wrote: 2. There is every sign the Astra Mk2 will look near identical to Astra Mk1.
I personally felt that VL-SRSAM was the MK2. It has to be dual pulsed to achieve a 40KM range. Similar to what is planned for DP VL-Mica.
Not necessarily Derby achieves 50km range used as part of Spyder system. So 40km seems to fit Astra Mk1 capabilities.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by brar_w »

A ground launched 7 inch AMRAAM has about 30-35 km range (likely lofted vs a subsonic target but much less against a higher altitude or faster target). The ER - AMRAAM with a 40% larger (dia) rocket motor (same warhead) gets to about 50 km likely against a similar target profile. The Derby is a 6.2 inch missile that still carries a warhead (I think) when launched as a ground based SAM.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Indranil »

^^^ +1

I think the motor diameter of Mk2 is increasing from 178mm to 190mm. Seeker, warhead and the control section remains at 178mm.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Karan M »

That should give much better end game energy management, and an expanded NEZ. But I remember reading the motor was x% larger than that of the Astra Mk1.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by jamwal »

Akash - 30 km
Akash NG* - 70 km
QR-SAM - 30 km
VL-SRSAM(Astra) - 50 km
MRSAM - 110 km
AAD - 150 km
PAD - 300 km
XRSAM*- 350 km
+
ASAT

This seems to be Indian version of S-400 system in making.

* - will be under development for at least 4-5 years.
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