Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

srai · Post by **srai** » 11 May 2020 13:12

Wondering what the eventual mix between Akash Mk1 and Mk1S would be?

AAFL/AAL -> 3 missiles
2 x Mk1 & 1 x Mk1S
1 x Mk1 & 2 x Mk1S

Flight/Troop -> 12 missiles
6 x Mk1 & 6 x Mk1S
8 x Mk1 & 4 x Mk1S
4 x Mk1 & 8 x Mk1S

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 11 May 2020 16:21

IAF MRSAMs are Barak correct?

srai · Post by **srai** » 11 May 2020 18:03

^^^
Missile is the same: Barak 8

IN LRSAM
IAF MRSAM
IA “MRSAM”

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 11 May 2020 18:58

Karan M wrote: . . . MRSAM units. 9 squadrons on order for the IAF, 2 regiments for the IA.

Karan, I thought MR-SAM deal for IA was for five regiments of the missile, which consists of 40 units and 200 missiles. Am I wrong? Yes, it is 9 squadrons for the IAF.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 11 May 2020 18:59

Prasad wrote:IAF MRSAMs are Barak correct?

Prasad, Naval equivalent of MR-SAM is Barak 8

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 11 May 2020 22:26

SSridhar wrote:
Karan M wrote: . . . MRSAM units. 9 squadrons on order for the IAF, 2 regiments for the IA.
Karan, I thought MR-SAM deal for IA was for five regiments of the missile, which consists of 40 units and 200 missiles. Am I wrong? Yes, it is 9 squadrons for the IAF.

Its sort of confusing, you could well be right. Reports suggest 1 regiment, but the number of firing units could match "5 regiments".
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... s?from=mdr

NEW DELHI: In a major upgrade to its defences, the Indian Army has signed a MoU with the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) to raise one regiment of the advanced Medium Range Surface to Air Missiles (MRSAM). The army plans to have a total of five regiments of this air defence system, which will be deployed opposite to China and Pakistan.

Also:
https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/ne ... 832237.ece
The MR-SAM, a land-based version of the long-range surface-to-air missile (LRSAM) for the Navy, will have a strike range of up 70 km, the official said. The deal envisages 40 firing units and around 200 missiles.

Now, it depends on how many firing units per regiment. Per the first link:
Each regiment consists of four launchers with three missiles each. So five regiments will have 60 missiles.[/quote]

I don't quite buy this yet, because the IAF launcher setup is 8 missile per launcher, and one reload (16 missiles), and 3 launchers + reloads to a squadron. Only reason for fewer missiles per launcher could be for mobility.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 11 May 2020 22:27

srai wrote:^^^
Missile is the same: Barak 8

IN LRSAM
IAF MRSAM
IA “MRSAM”

There will be some differences. The IA version seems to indicate an anti BM role too.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 11 May 2020 23:39

FWIW
https://www.aviation-defence-universe.c ... rsam-army/

Induction of MRSAM for Indian Army : A filip to indigenisation

New Delhi. 12 April 2017.

By Major General AP Singh, Ph.D.

The author is posted with Army HQ, Dte Gen of Army Air Defence as ADG, Army AIr Defence.

New Delhi. 12 April 2017. In a long awaited filip to indigenous capabilities, last month (March 2017), Government of India sanctioned to DRDO the programme for “Development and Production of land based Medium Range Surface to Air Missile Systems (MRSAM)”, with Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) for the Indian Army. The programme is a design, development, production, installation and commissioning of the MRSAM Systems into Army Air Defence.
.............

MRSAM will enhance the medium range Air Defence coverage to various Division Size Battle Groups, Rapid Reaction Forces of both the Pivot and Strike Corps and help them fight battle independently. It will enhance the Army’s ability to operate across diverse terrain on multiple fronts, fight isolated battles across any terrain with labyrinth of obstacles and enhance their reach deep inside the enemy territory from enemy air threats.

.............

MRSAM(Army) will be an advanced, all weather, 3600, mobile land system that will provide missile defence against wide variety of threats including saturation attacks and limited tactical ballistic missiles with full capability of air and surface surveillance, threat alert and fire control in a kill zone of over 50 km in range and 20 km in height. The missile has a small, light weight & compact active seeker.

Most of the onboard systems being compact, will minimize the signature making it difficult for enemy air to engage it. The propulsion system with dual pulse rocket motor will increase the missile velocity and maneuvering capability in intercepting new generation fighter aircraft and drones / UAVs of increasing capability like stealth, artificial intelligence capable and other low cost targets that will bring a very high degree of threat to the land forces. The multi-functional phased array radar, with 3D beam capability can detect target upto range of 300km with capabilities of surveillance, multi-target tracking, threat alert, target assignment & launch of missiles, enhancing the quality of Air Defence to the ground forces. Critical elements will have NBC protection.

Boost to ‘Make in India’ Capability

A very significant gain has been the transfer of technology of critical components like seeker, warhead etc. including Maintenance Transfer of Technology. Flow of technology will lead to well defined indigenous capability. Design data share will improve the ‘Built to Print’ portion of systems/sub-systems.

The private vendors already identified by IAI for IN and IAF LRSAM/MRSAM project will ensure unhindered and timely production of Army’s MRSAM. The participation of private industries in the Army project will increase remarkably vis-à-vis IN and IAF contracts since the work share will increase significantly. Industry will be involved in providing various components including of missiles. Increased work-share coupled with DRDO tasked to develop more systems will ensure larger private industry participation.

Indigenous production of the multi-functional surveillance and Threat Alert Radar will substantially increase the gain in technology to Indian companies leading to enhanced capability to develop/produce the system within the country.

Another benefit of project will be the DPSUs having developed infrastructure for production of missiles of AF and Navy, will get lead time now to enhance its infrastructure for integration of missile and training of manpower for production of MRSAM for the Army. It also gives opportunity to private industry to augment the missile production capability at least in non-niche components. The project is likely to give major boost to the “Make in India” initiative leading to more self-reliance in sustaining the system in long run.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 12 May 2020 00:16

Karan M wrote:
The chairman clarified that BEL was also developing a new radio-frequency seeker, which will be installed on board the missile to enhance interception of the target.

“This onboard will track the target and direct the missile through a ground link,” he said. According to sources, some of the new missiles destined for the Air Force will carry this new target seeker.

What does "BEL developing a seeker" mean? BEL is only the manufacturer/integrator for the Akash missile right? Seeker for the 1S is developed by the DRDO if I'm not mistaken and the 1S was tested in May last year. Not sure what the status is now.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 12 May 2020 04:04

Probably BEl is improving seeker technology by DRDO.

M. Gowtama is a very credible guy.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 12 May 2020 06:28

Its the same seeker. In desi talk "developing" also means putting a final version into production. There is always some change from what DRDO gives to what gets manufactured. That's where BEL steps in. Cost effectiveness, tweaked performance etc.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 12 May 2020 07:54

^ Yes, that's what it should be. The first Akash-1S test with indigenous RF seeker was in 2017. In December 2017, DRDO tested several rounds of Akash-1S. The MoD Report for 2017-2018 said, “ During the flight test held on December 5, 2017 against Banshee target, the integration of indigenous RF seeker with basic missile configuration was proved.”

This seeker was also successfully tested in captive flight trials (CFT) with different flight engagement profiles in Astra weapon system configuration later.

mody · Post by **mody** » 12 May 2020 19:15

The important and seriously encouraging bit is that the indigenous seeker is going into production. Doesn't matter who takes credit for it. After the RF seeker for the Astra, this will be the second RF seeker to go into production. I'm sure both the seekers will be fairly similar. However, this shows that in a few years, we might be able to develop RF seekers that offer performance similar to the seekers on the Barak-8 and have fully indigenous MR/LR SAMS.
IIR seeker for the Nag is also proven and will most likely be used as a base for Astra-IR as well as the proposed MANPAD. This leaves only MMW seekers, which we still don't have. Hopefully within the next couple years, that too shall pass and the SANT shall fly with an indigenous MMW seeker. Insha allah.

arvin · Post by **arvin** » 12 May 2020 20:29

Another focus area should be expendable radar jammars that uses DRFM like BriteCloud. Assuming We have good radar jamming and DRFM expertise via LCA and Sukhoi programmes, we can package it in a expendable form and equip all our aircrafts with it.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 13 May 2020 03:40

arvin wrote:Another focus area should be expendable radar jammars that uses DRFM like BriteCloud. Assuming We have good radar jamming and DRFM expertise via LCA and Sukhoi programmes, we can package it in a expendable form and equip all our aircrafts with it.

Yes it should be a focus area. Towed decoy and expendable radar jammers like BriteCloud are soon going to be a necessary item not just for fighters but for transports, AEW&C and tankers. With the imminent induction of long range active BVRAAMs from the PLAAF and PAF side, this is a gap that urgently needs to be addressed. Rafale is the only fighter in the IAF's inventory that'll have a towed decoy.

Perhaps to expedite the process of induction, DRDO could collaborate on a JV with Rafael of Israel. They have a X-Guard fiber optic towed decoy product that has been around for a long time now. Either that, or if it can be developed rapidly, then DRDO could go completely indigenous on it.

MAWS is another sensor that most IAF jets lack as of now. That too needs to be fixed. Super Sukhoi program will introduce it for the Su-30 fleet, Rafale has it, but the MiG-29, Mirage-2000I, Jaguar and Tejas lack MAWS as of now. A variant of the MAWS developed for the Su-30 should end up on the Mk1A, MiG-29UPG, Mirage-2000I and Jaguar fleet as well hopefully.

srai · Post by **srai** » 13 May 2020 04:26

...

After the RF seeker for the Astra, this will be the second RF seeker to go into production. I'm sure both the seekers will be fairly similar.

...

They are the same.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 13 May 2020 11:32

arvin wrote:Another focus area should be expendable radar jammars that uses DRFM like BriteCloud. Assuming We have good radar jamming and DRFM expertise via LCA and Sukhoi programmes, we can package it in a expendable form and equip all our aircrafts with it.

Good catch.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 13 May 2020 14:34

Karan M wrote:Its the same seeker. In desi talk "developing" also means putting a final version into production. There is always some change from what DRDO gives to what gets manufactured. That's where BEL steps in. Cost effectiveness, tweaked performance etc.

Plus BEL also does some captive R&D. Although this is probably not that extensive. So the seeker news can also be true.

mody · Post by **mody** » 13 May 2020 16:44

Will the tracking and fire control radar for both IA and IAF MRSAM projects be from Israel or is an indigenous option also being worked on? For the IN LRSAM, it radar is the Israeli MFSTAR.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 13 May 2020 21:15

A few notes - this is the same seeker SRai and SSridhar pointed to. BEL does not have other seeker programs running for these programs. India currently has around 7 airborne target optimized RF seeker programs we can surmise. This is one of them.

Mody, read the posts in the thread. You have the details in my post right above with a person from Army AD clarifying the details!

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 13 May 2020 21:52

If the range is not increased by the sensor in 1S, what are the advantages of using that over the last command guided model?

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 13 May 2020 23:49

sudeepj wrote:If the range is not increased by the sensor in 1S, what are the advantages of using that over the last command guided model?

Will improve the probability of kill.

srai · Post by **srai** » 14 May 2020 01:41

^^^
LOBL mode (Fire and forget) 13km, which is half the range of the missile itself. Half the time of the command guide.

LOAL (with inertial guidance and datalink), again the radar systems don’t need to be on too long like for command guidance mode.

More survival against ARM attacks.

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 14 May 2020 09:59

Increased survivability and PoK are definite benefits! The missile is powered 'all the way' in its 25km range. Its not going to stop once it reaches 25km.. There may be an increase in effective range as well.

Am I the only one who believes that desi weapon systems that go 'off radar' are working the best and are likely to cause the most amount of trouble to enemies in an actual conflict? Akash is one such..

not much tom-tomming of NG, 1-S, or Mk II. It means things are working better than expected and capabilities are 'classified'. Disreputables dont 'need to know'.

John · Post by **John** » 14 May 2020 10:55

sudeepj wrote:Increased survivability and PoK are definite benefits! The missile is powered 'all the way' in its 25km range. Its not going to stop once it reaches 25km.. There may be an increase in effective range as well.

Ramjet motor cannot be throttled similar to liquid fueled ramjet in Brahmos it will burn out much like solid fueled rocket it’s burn time is little bit longer but it has lower impulse which makes up for it. Once we move to a solid fueled rocket the range should be much better and also the missile can more optimized flight path which can increase range even further.

mody · Post by **mody** » 14 May 2020 14:58

sudeepj wrote:If the range is not increased by the sensor in 1S, what are the advantages of using that over the last command guided model?

As per some reports, it is supposed to increase the range upto 35 Kms with the RF seeker.

Nilanjan · Post by **Nilanjan** » 15 May 2020 17:12

As far as i know drdo designed a new high power seeker for akash ng for operation in mountain region,probably it will have of radar capability,which will be nesessary for avoiding terrain obstacles and bel delivered a high power transmitter for this seeker to drdo in the presence of rajnath singh..for akash 1s i have no idea if it will have the same capability...

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 15 May 2020 18:39

Nilanjan what do you mean by "of radar capability,which will be nesessary for avoiding terrain obstacles"?

Nilanjan · Post by **Nilanjan** » 15 May 2020 20:14

Karan M wrote:Nilanjan what do you mean by "of radar capability,which will be nesessary for avoiding terrain obstacles"?

Sorry,for confusing you using wrong term..actualy ,that is a stupid invention of mine..what i wanted to tell that in mountainous region after firing a ad missile toward target,the target can use terrain to hide from the ground based fire control radar,now if the missile have high power seeker it can track and intercept that target from height using it's seeker.so,the kill probability will increase..now,there is a indication in many reports about akash ng that it will have better capability in this type of scenario..

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 16 May 2020 03:25

Nilanjan wrote:
Karan M wrote:Nilanjan what do you mean by "of radar capability,which will be nesessary for avoiding terrain obstacles"?
Sorry,for confusing you using wrong term..actualy ,that is a stupid invention of mine..what i wanted to tell that in mountainous region after firing a ad missile toward target,the target can use terrain to hide from the ground based fire control radar,now if the missile have high power seeker it can track and intercept that target from height using it's seeker.so,the kill probability will increase..now,there is a indication in many reports about akash ng that it will have better capability in this type of scenario..

Thanks for clarifying. Can you point to any of these reports? Akash NG is receiving a higher power seeker, but it will have advantages in several kinds of scenarios.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 19 May 2020 11:31

In recent development, Short Range Surface to Air Missile (SRSAM) global case has been withdrawn and also awarded to Akash with upgrades of Seeker Technology, Reduced footprint for weapon system elements, 360-degree engagement capability and high altitude/low-temperature operation, which is named as 'Akash Prime'.

https://www.firstpost.com/india/steady- ... 13281.html

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 19 May 2020 11:48

Karan M wrote:In recent development, Short Range Surface to Air Missile (SRSAM) global case has been withdrawn and also awarded to Akash . . .

https://www.firstpost.com/india/steady- ... 13281.html

That was 'Project Maitri' with MBDA that had been hanging fire for a long time.

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 19 May 2020 21:20

Vishnu Som interview with Air Force Chief
https://www.ndtv.com/video/exclusive/nd ... ome-videos
ASTRA -"Order very soon, Hopefully that adequate production capability is established. Tech is contemporary". Around 17:00 min.
Also on TV tonight at 10:00 PM

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 19 May 2020 23:58

dinesha wrote: ASTRA -"Order very soon, Hopefully that adequate production capability is established.

This statement only makes sense to me if the order is for a foreign weapon system which has already been bought by the originating country's armed forces (or others) in numbers and the Indian Armed forces are just the next customer. The "adequate" production capability was established when the previous customers placed large orders and the same will now be leveraged to fulfill India's orders. This does not work for new Indian systems which have zero orders till now. No production house works like that.

srai · Post by **srai** » 20 May 2020 04:35

^^^
I think there has been a pre-production order for 50 Astra units. But yes you are right. Let the orders be signed and then the production rate will establish accordingly.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 20 May 2020 07:53

srai wrote:I think there has been a pre-production order for 50 Astra units. But yes you are right. Let the orders be signed and then the production rate will establish accordingly.

Yes, in 2018 an order was placed by IAF for 50 missiles. At that time, it was stated that this 'pre-production' order was to enable BEL to iron out all supply chain issues for future bigger orders.

In March 2020, an IAF officer was quoted in the press, “We have initiated the process to acquire the first batch of the Astra missiles. Since it is indigenous, we will be procuring them in batches”.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 20 May 2020 11:31

I think our forces need to learn, Lockheed Martin etc, when they invest in something like an F-22 or F-35 are assured of compensation no matter what the outcomes are, and more money is thrown to fix problems. Thats why the US has such a good MIC. We need similarly develop our MIC we need our nation to be secure.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 May 2020 12:05

Guys in our PSU system, we tend to operate a bit differently based on verbal commitment, GOI demarches, circulars etc. Indent is often enough to establish facilities which the much maligned PSUs keep running, even after the product goes through trial after trial. The point being since all report to the same entity, which is the GOI, production facilities get established and funded by internal funding without substantial orders for the same by the user. Anyhow, per BDL, they were expecting substantial Astra orders and hence establishing a dedicated line for the same, which is what the IAF report likely refers to.

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 20 May 2020 13:27

There was an order of 50 Astras.

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 08 Jun 2020 18:15

I hope they resume some testing now.