Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

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Prem Kumar
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Prem Kumar »

The LCH recommendation came from the IA post-Kargil experience. They must know a thing or two about why they asked for it.

I don't agree with the view that, because an LCH cannot survive a worst-case scenario (few second response time), it is useless in that environment. No war equipment will survive its worst case scenario.

We were debating the pros & cons of LCH vs Rudra. However, if you are of the view that helicopters are useless in mountains, you are entitled to your view.
ramana
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by ramana »

Folks we are losing our edge by indulging in trivia and I know more than you type discussions.
These threads are not the place to indulge in it.
No wonder many folks have left and gone to other S/M.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Varoon Shekhar »

^
Yes, eagerly awaiting the Agni-5 test with MIRV, tomorrow or Friday.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Vicky »

Tenders indicate 20 Rudram-III units are being built for testing over the next year :D :wink:

The "UT" in Astra Mk1 UT has something to do with "Telemetry". (underwhelming reveal :roll: ) - Why does UT exist?

20 Helina are being built (Again :-? :(( - The runaround continues) - For LCH release testing?
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by AshishA »

Varoon Shekhar wrote:^
Yes, eagerly awaiting the Agni-5 test with MIRV, tomorrow or Friday.
It's interesting that this is coinciding with PM Modi's visit to US.
ramana
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by ramana »

Vicky wrote:Tenders indicate 20 Rudram-III units are being built for testing over the next year :D :wink:

The "UT" in Astra Mk1 UT has something to do with "Telemetry". (underwhelming reveal :roll: ) - Why does UT exist?

20 Helina are being built (Again :-? :(( - The runaround continues) - For LCH release testing?

Most likely to send data on vehicle performance.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by nam »

It makes sense that Astra 2 will not be made longer. We forget that Astra 2 will be the primary BVR (along with SFDR) for AMCA. So the length needs to be within the limits of AMCA's weapon bay.

Logically, increased range will achieved by using a larger diameter.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by nam »

Rudra 3 must be our Air launched AShBM. Land lanuched AShBM must be Agni P. (2K is the perfect distance from mainland to A&N). MIRV equipped AShBM would be a interesting proposition against Chini vessel.

We need a solution to cover any Chini adventure over A&N. The Chinis have a massive eye on those islands. They will try to break the link b/w the mainland and the island.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by nachiket »

AMCA weapons bay needs to be sized for the SFDR dimensions. Ramjet AAM's with large NEZ's will have proliferated by the time AMCA gets inducted.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by brar_w »

The air intakes of a VFDR missile like say the meteor make it a poor candidate for compressed carriage (regardless of IWB size). Only one missile design (till now) has attempted a compressed carriage compliant VFDR missile design (with mixed results) and I haven’t seen any similar design attempt since then.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Indranil »

Vicky wrote: The "UT" in Astra Mk1 UT has something to do with "Telemetry". (underwhelming reveal :roll: ) - Why does UT exist?
They are refining the missile continuously. It is good. I think they are optimizing the motor for longer range and faster acceleration.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Anujan »

Was Nag ever ordered in quantity? (not Helina, the basic Nag)

I see news articles about order for 443 Nags. Was it delivered? Is it deployed?
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Pratyush »

No it wasn't ordered in any quantity. It had rather funny objections from the army over the last decade or so.

Arround 2012 they asked for a modification of the launching vehicle which resulted in an 8 missile launcher becoming a 6 missile launcher. Resulting ina delay of about 3 years.

Once this was done then they come back with a complaint arround 2016 that the missile is unable to discriminate between target and the background beyond a range of 3.2 kms during the hottest part of the day in the hottest part of the year in the hottest part of the country.

Never mind that arround that time the threat perception was sufficient dire enough that the Indian army had been compelled to deploy 2 brigades worth of upgraded t72 in Laddhak.

The limitations identified for the missile would not have effected it's operations in the region.

This issue is now reported to have been resolved. So once helina is cleared. One can hope that nag will be cleared as well.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by nam »

Nag will not be ordered in large numbers. Now that Chinis have created trouble, IA will ask for the NLOS version of Nag with 20+ KM range, as Chinis have it.
For other task IA already has various ATGM options. We have "emotional" attachment with Nag, IA doesn't.

It can ask DRDO for 100 more changes, as it is ghar kha dhal and not a critical item.

Helina meanwhile will be inducted (don't know when), because there is no other alternative. MoD seems to have used it's famous "paper pushing process" to block French ATGM.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Pratyush »

I will be quite happy if the Indian army buys the helina and the shorter ranged MPATGM in large numbers for all it's troops.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Prem Kumar »

Pratyush wrote:No it wasn't ordered in any quantity. It had rather funny objections from the army over the last decade or so.

Arround 2012 they asked for a modification of the launching vehicle which resulted in an 8 missile launcher becoming a 6 missile launcher. Resulting ina delay of about 3 years.

Once this was done then they come back with a complaint arround 2016 that the missile is unable to discriminate between target and the background beyond a range of 3.2 kms during the hottest part of the day in the hottest part of the year in the hottest part of the country.

Never mind that arround that time the threat perception was sufficient dire enough that the Indian army had been compelled to deploy 2 brigades worth of upgraded t72 in Laddhak.

The limitations identified for the missile would not have effected it's operations in the region.

This issue is now reported to have been resolved. So once helina is cleared. One can hope that nag will be cleared as well.
2 more objections by the IA that led to delays:

a) They wanted the minimum range reduced to 500m or thereabouts
b) They raised some issue about Namica's water fordability

Its as disgraceful a saga as the Arjun :evil:
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Karan M »

Vicky wrote:Tenders indicate 20 Rudram-III units are being built for testing over the next year :D :wink:

The "UT" in Astra Mk1 UT has something to do with "Telemetry". (underwhelming reveal :roll: ) - Why does UT exist?

20 Helina are being built (Again :-? :(( - The runaround continues) - For LCH release testing?
Telemetry is for a design change usually (for an already mature product). How many UT? Are there new units being fabricated? That would let us know.

20 Helina for LCH sounds about right. The other 40 mentioned could be for a pre-production run to proof test the IA order.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by sajaym »

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/a ... 2021-09-23
No plans to conduct test of nuclear-capable Agni-V missile for next 20 days: DRDO.
As usual, the gora man asks the brown man to heel and the brown man humbly obliges. If there was no plan to test it, then why was the NOTAM issued?

My ideal wet dream would have been to see a Agni-V being launched from a truck-based cannister and then each of the MIRVs striking different closely-placed-ship-sized targets (simulating a carrier battle group) in the Bay of Bengal. That single test would shut down any other country's aspirations of sailing a CBG uninvited, into either the Arabian Sea or the Bay of Bengal. :twisted:
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Vicky »

Karan M wrote: Telemetry is for a design change usually (for an already mature product). How many UT? Are there new units being fabricated? That would let us know.
Quantity unknown.

On a second look. UT might just stand for the "USER TRIALS" version. There are special references to UT being "Limited Telemetry" which probably means this is the final version with the developmental telemetry removed.

But it has an revised datalink, upgraded Radio Proximity fuze, Revised slotted array for the seeker, some changes to the motor and a field checkout system compared to the Mk-1 version that existed earlier.

Don't know which version is in Limited Series Production. The old one or UT?
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by ramana »

Seems like the US asked for a test delay. Let us see. The DRDO chief by saying no intention has undercut the political position. If not intention then why NOTAM was issued? And that too two NOTAMs.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by S_Madhukar »

Why is the US asking for a delay ? So that it can have the right 'assets' in place to monitor it ? Otherwise CNN won't have time to publish it's op-ed? Did they tell us about the weapons cache they were gifting to AfPak? That's the problem with Unkil he doesn't give toffees easily nor allows you to have one
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Karan M »

Vicky wrote:
Karan M wrote: Telemetry is for a design change usually (for an already mature product). How many UT? Are there new units being fabricated? That would let us know.
Quantity unknown.

On a second look. UT might just stand for the "USER TRIALS" version. There are special references to UT being "Limited Telemetry" which probably means this is the final version with the developmental telemetry removed.

But it has an revised datalink, upgraded Radio Proximity fuze, Revised slotted array for the seeker, some changes to the motor and a field checkout system compared to the Mk-1 version that existed earlier.

Don't know which version is in Limited Series Production. The old one or UT?
User trials were already completed. But these could be ones with a new Indian seeker and the number of changes indicated are fairly substantial. So, yes, it would make sense if a new set of trials were to be completed for this batch and then series production was cleared for this version.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Prem Kumar »

1) Repeated delays in GISAT-1 launch - possible U.S pressure
2) GSLV fails to launch GISAT-1 - reason not yet known
3) Agni-V premature reporting of MIRV, followed by cancellation

After the U.S walked out of Afghanistan, illegally transferring Billions of $$ worth war-equipment to Islamic terrorists, many of which would be used against it. And screws us over in QUAD.

These actions look Manmohan'esque
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by ramana »

It could be a glitch during pre flight checkout..
Yes DRDO statement is bizarre..
Let's see.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by ramdas »

It could be that the postponement may be for weather related reasons. The monsoon has become unusually active at this time. This may not have been foreseen when the NOTAM was issued on Sep 11. Hopefully this is the only reason, and the test with MIRVs will take place once the weather clears.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by AshishA »

It might be weather related. Heavy rain due to low pressure has been happening for about 2 weeks I think. And will also intensify from September 26 too. Hence the 20 days. But I am not sure.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by basant »

Must be political weather, as usual. What is interesting was that it was scheduled at THIS time!
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Prasad »

Image

Could be that tracking ships in the Bay of Bengal had an issue with weather?
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by kit »

AshishA wrote:
Varoon Shekhar wrote:^
Yes, eagerly awaiting the Agni-5 test with MIRV, tomorrow or Friday.
It's interesting that this is coinciding with PM Modi's visit to US.

yes, its a political statement to US as well.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Cyrano »

Put off by 20 days doesnt indicate just weather conditions
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by SSridhar »

Key trial of 5,000-km ICBM Agni-V in October - Rajat Pandit, ToI
India will soon conduct another test of its most formidable strategic missile, the over 5,000-km Agni-V, even as work is still in progress to develop multiple-warhead capability for ballistic missiles.
It will take another two years for a MIRVed missile to be flight-tested to prove the core technologies. With warheads meant to hit targets hundreds of kilometre apart with different trajectories, such a missile involves complex technologies. The test of the highly-miniaturised Agni-Prime in June included decoys, not an MIRV payload,” said a source.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by ramdas »

now whose sources do we trust, Hemant Rout's or Rajat Pandit's ?
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Prem Kumar »

A reasonable sounding confusion (misunderstanding decoys as MIRVs). But Rout is a heck a lot more reliable than Rajat Pandit.

I think there is some cover-up going on. 2 things have happened:

1) A test was planned when it wasn't supposed to be planned. An Agni-V test would've needed MoD clearance in the first place (before a NOTAM was issued). So, clearly, someone forgot to liaise with the MEA about Modi's US visit. Some MEA babu would have raised hell with his MoD counterpart

2) A news item got leaked that shouldn't have been leaked (about MIRV). Babus are in damage control mode via "sources"
Last edited by Prem Kumar on 24 Sep 2021 11:29, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by SSridhar »

In my opinion, if decoys are deployed already, that is as good as the MIRVd payload.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by SSridhar »

From the notes, "In May 2013, the DRDO Chief, Dr. V.K.Saraswat said that MIRV was at a design stage and another test of Agni-V, without MIRV, would be done later that year."

According to The Hindu (Feb. 05, 2013), “We have started working on the multiple independently targetable re-entry vehicles [MIRV] version [Agni-VI]. It will carry four or six warheads depending upon their weight,” DRDO missile technologists said.

The Jan 19, 2020 test of K4 was supposed to be a MIRVd missile (no official claim though).

We will leave it at that.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by sajaym »

Great videos of the Agni-5 & the SS-18. Really awesome how the gas cannister is jettisoned to the side by a rocket charge before the main engine kicks in! 8)




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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Pratyush »

Given the current state of Indo US relationship. Coupled with the state of Indian missile development program. Why is the test required to have MEA coordination?

Something doesn't add up.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by ramdas »

Also, given that Dr. Saraswat himself has revealed MIRVs as a goal way back in 2012/13, why would MIRVs in a test be something to hide with babus having to do `damage control' ? MIRVs are absolutely necessary or credible deterrence, given China's buildup. As or decoys, only if the decoys are heavy decoys of weight comparable to the RV itself, does a payload with decoys become equivalent to a MIRV payload. Not if the decoys are chaff/decoy balloons, etc.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by hnair »

Dont know why we are being coy with MIRV announcements? China has handed over the pakis the tech for tracking, like three years back after the pakis probably tested their MIRV mijjile back in 2017 which seem to have came a cropper.

2018 News:
China Acknowledges Sale Of Advanced Missile Technology To Pakistan
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