Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

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Cain Marko
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Cain Marko »

Have a feeling this A5 delay is a result of some play by MEA. The IFS babus have left no stone unturned to keep India a colony.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by jamwal »

No use of just speculating and abusing babooze based on nothing but random thoughts.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by basant »

Cain Marko wrote:Have a feeling this A5 delay is a result of some play by MEA. The IFS babus have left no stone unturned to keep India a colony.
Scheduling at this juncture shows it was a bargaining tactic. Sometimes such timings have unusual consequences too. See this.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Vicky »

Tender buzz:
VSHORADS has entered the metal cutting stage of prototyping. Tenders for various steel alloys released - large quantities.

They are still using Maraging steel, will be cheap but heavy compared to the FRP composite motors in the Russki stuff.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by ramana »

I think it's fruitless to speculate without data on test denial.
Such strategic weapons have many different levels of decisions.
So whatever it was, it would be all aspects taken into account.
Kudos to Satish Reddy for taking the heat
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by ShivS »

Vicky wrote:Tender buzz:
VSHORADS has entered the metal cutting stage of prototyping. Tenders for various steel alloys released - large quantities.

They are still using Maraging steel, will be cheap but heavy compared to the FRP composite motors in the Russki stuff.
Another weapon system being put into production without optimisation
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by nam »

If we use steel, the weight might increase by 1 or 2kg. Can't our men light 2 extra kg? Will IA give extra money because a manpad is using composites?

What is the big advantage?
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Vicky »

nam wrote:If we use steel, the weight might increase by 1 or 2kg. Can't our men light 2 extra kg? Will IA give extra money because a manpad is using composites?

What is the big advantage?
Not much difference in the field as heavy VSHORADS like Stinger, RBS-70, Mistral are very common and are equally effective.
But the Army as we all know will find every technical excuse on the earth to find a fault because they will compare the weight with the current in-service Igla, Strela and the potential Verba. Price/Commercial discussions are generally MoD's turf so Army has very small say in that.
That's the lesson we all learnt from Nag, Arjun, LCA, Prahar and many more.

Just hoping that the Army brass especially Armoured Corps and Artillery changes for the better. Since this is for Army Air Defence, I expect less import lobbying compared to Armour or Artillery. All we can do is wait and see. Verba is stuck in a limbo like the Ka-226 anyway.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by A Deshmukh »

nam wrote:If we use steel, the weight might increase by 1 or 2kg. Can't our men light 2 extra kg? Will IA give extra money because a manpad is using composites?
What is the big advantage?
Range?
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by nam »

By how much? Today's manpads are already around 10KM. DRDO would always create a contemporary solution. I really don't know if there is a usecae fo 15KM range.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by williams »

basant wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:Have a feeling this A5 delay is a result of some play by MEA. The IFS babus have left no stone unturned to keep India a colony.
Scheduling at this juncture shows it was a bargaining tactic. Sometimes such timings have unusual consequences too. See this.
Ok don't panic Bramos has much better guidance system now :D :
https://www.newindianexpress.com/states ... 33541.html
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by John »

nam wrote:By how much? Today's manpads are already around 10KM. DRDO would always create a contemporary solution. I really don't know if there is a usecae fo 15KM range.
10 km what Manpad has that kinda of range even Verpa has range of only around of only 6.5 km. Even that is highly dubious as it is against head on slow moving non maneuvering target.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Karan M »

ShivS wrote:
Vicky wrote:Tender buzz:
VSHORADS has entered the metal cutting stage of prototyping. Tenders for various steel alloys released - large quantities.

They are still using Maraging steel, will be cheap but heavy compared to the FRP composite motors in the Russki stuff.
Another weapon system being put into production without optimisation
Please don't make glib statements without evidence. This is not a forum for making random comments about design choices without evidence.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Vicky »

Also let's not overread and dramatise into the VSHORADS program at these early stages - there is no guarantee that it's a MANPAD program.
Another project called MPDMS does also seems to exist since the last two years but we do not know whether they are both variants of the same project or two parallel projects.

There is more activity in the VSHORADS tenders, The MPDMS tenders are nowhere to be seen except the two related to the battery and Seeker dome seen in late 2019.

Since the K-30 Biho VSHORADS tender is also on hold along with the Strela/Verba since a long time as it doesn't meet Army's requirements - it's likely that this VSHORADS is an alternative to Biho/Schilka. We do not know what chassis will it be carried on and if it will have a anti air cannon.

A lot of unknowns.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Vips »

Cain Marko wrote:Have a feeling this A5 delay is a result of some play by MEA. The IFS babus have left no stone unturned to keep India a colony.
If we do not see a test in October (DRDO's statement that missile test is not planned for another 20 days), then it denotes something negative, either some pre-test failure or worse - we came under pressure or bargained with the chinese lizards for some concession on the LAC.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by nam »

John wrote:10 km what Manpad has that kinda of range even Verpa has range of only around of only 6.5 km. Even that is highly dubious as it is against head on slow moving non maneuvering target.
I was optimistic then! A human eye cannot figure out enemy versus friendly at those ranges anyways. So their is really no advantage of such ranges. What we do need though is cheap and in large numbers. Exotic solutions using composites doesn't help...

On a vehicle with larger optical sensor range might be useful. But then you can put a full fledged SAM on such carrier.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Prem Kumar »

MANPADS like Verba & I am sure our homegrown one, have IFF transponders. Won't rely on visual identification alone.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Karan M »

Precisely.
Cain Marko
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Cain Marko »

Vips wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:Have a feeling this A5 delay is a result of some play by MEA. The IFS babus have left no stone unturned to keep India a colony.
If we do not see a test in October (DRDO's statement that missile test is not planned for another 20 days), then it denotes something negative, either some pre-test failure or worse - we came under pressure or bargained with the chinese lizards for some concession on the LAC.
It seems the Chinese brought out a5 at security council. Wonder if that was a reason for the postponement.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by sajaym »

A long time ago...when I had cribbed about some missile test being delayed, one poster on this forum had hinted that 'don't think that the latest advertised tests are THE latest tests'. He was one of those sarkari types -- you can guess that by their trainee status, very low post count, highly technical posts.

He had suggested that the public domain news about our missiles are atleast 1 year old. Meaning we normal people are coming to know of things --missiles, nuke subs, radars only after one year. Could it be possible??
Cain Marko
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Cain Marko »

sajaym wrote:A long time ago...when I had cribbed about some missile test being delayed, one poster on this forum had hinted that 'don't think that the latest advertised tests are THE latest tests'. He was one of those sarkari types -- you can guess that by their trainee status, very low post count, highly technical posts.

He had suggested that the public domain news about our missiles are atleast 1 year old. Meaning we normal people are coming to know of things --missiles, nuke subs, radars only after one year. Could it be possible??
One can only hope and it could very well be the case.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Varoon Shekhar »

"one poster on this forum had hinted that 'don't think that the latest advertised tests are THE latest tests'."

That can't be true of a 5000+ Agni range missile, it's likely that many Prithvi, Brahmos and Akash missile launches were not announced. And that even when they were, something else could have been tested.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by prasannasimha »

prasannasimha
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by prasannasimha »

sajaym wrote:A long time ago...when I had cribbed about some missile test being delayed, one poster on this forum had hinted that 'don't think that the latest advertised tests are THE latest tests'. He was one of those sarkari types -- you can guess that by their trainee status, very low post count, highly technical posts.

He had suggested that the public domain news about our missiles are atleast 1 year old. Meaning we normal people are coming to know of things --missiles, nuke subs, radars only after one year. Could it be possible??
Possible, K4 test was all smoke and mirrors A5 was hidden once with altered trajectory such that range was like that of A3
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Sonugn »

A new version of the Akash Missile – ‘Akash Prime’- successfully flight-tested from Integrated Test Range at Chandipur. The missile intercepted and destroyed an unmanned aerial target mimicking an enemy aircraft in its maiden flight test after improvements.

via RajatPTOI (Times Of India)
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Vicky »

Sonugn wrote:A new version of the Akash Missile – ‘Akash Prime’- successfully flight-tested from Integrated Test Range at Chandipur. The missile intercepted and destroyed an unmanned aerial target mimicking an enemy aircraft in its maiden flight test after improvements.

via RajatPTOI (Times Of India)
Is this DDMitis?. Both TOIlet and ANI reported the same. Do they mean Akash-1S? The word "prime" was used in the context of 1S eons ago.

Edit: Even Livefist is calling it Prime. The released DRDO video also has AKP-01 code on it.
https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1442490250987720710

How is this different from the 1S then?

Edit: Upon further evaluation of the DRDO press release, I think this is just the final/further improved version of the 1S with more improvements in high alt/cold performance and simplified launchers. So, 1S will continue in this new avatar.
Last edited by Vicky on 27 Sep 2021 21:47, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by VinodTK »

^^^DRDO Tests 'Akash Prime' Missile At Integrated Test Range in Odisha's Chandipur

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Nikhil_Naya »

prasannasimha wrote:
sajaym wrote:A long time ago...when I had cribbed about some missile test being delayed, one poster on this forum had hinted that 'don't think that the latest advertised tests are THE latest tests'. He was one of those sarkari types -- you can guess that by their trainee status, very low post count, highly technical posts.

He had suggested that the public domain news about our missiles are atleast 1 year old. Meaning we normal people are coming to know of things --missiles, nuke subs, radars only after one year. Could it be possible??
Possible, K4 test was all smoke and mirrors A5 was hidden once with altered trajectory such that range was like that of A3
Ahem Ahem...A ballistic missile can very well be 'tested for full range' without testing for full range. Example, if the expected azimuth, velocity and other key control parameters are met during boost/ ascent - we can assume that the raakit will fulfil range parameter. Same time, if the raakit is able to follow a predecided path to reentry (including re-entry angle, location, etc) and show internal telemetry as naarmal meaning that the conditions remain favorable, we can assume technically that it will be the same at 'full range'. If a solid propellant engine - designed to burn for lets say 400 seconds - is packed enough to burn only for 250 seconds, can I assume that it will also stay the full burn (if I have adequate ballast/ loss of mass, etc) to compensate?

Paanwallah did say, some failures are successes in disguise...
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by kit »

prasannasimha wrote:https://twitter.com/DfIlite/status/1442 ... 18279?s=20

what could this Veda Missile be?
Could be related to MOKV., the next gen BMD layer

http://www.indiandefencereview.com/spot ... icle-mokv/

https://www.nti.org/gsn/article/lockhee ... -vehicles/

The MOKV would be a force multiplier for any ABM system. A single interceptor missile equipped with this payload could now tackle the MIRVs, including decoys.
The many-on-many strategy obviates the need for credible pre-launch intelligence while leveraging the ABM System’s discrimination capability. Provides a layered ABM defence against ballistic missiles of all ranges in all phases of flight
Substantially reduces the interceptor inventory required to defeat an evolving and more capable threat.

Bleeding edge tech , negates presumed Chinese superiority in number of nuclear (and conventional) warheads deployed.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by kit »

Also takes the threat scenario to the next level, hypersonic missiles.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by williams »

Nikhil_Naya wrote:
prasannasimha wrote: Possible, K4 test was all smoke and mirrors A5 was hidden once with altered trajectory such that range was like that of A3
Ahem Ahem...A ballistic missile can very well be 'tested for full range' without testing for full range. Example, if the expected azimuth, velocity and other key control parameters are met during boost/ ascent - we can assume that the raakit will fulfil range parameter. Same time, if the raakit is able to follow a predecided path to reentry (including re-entry angle, location, etc) and show internal telemetry as naarmal meaning that the conditions remain favorable, we can assume technically that it will be the same at 'full range'. If a solid propellant engine - designed to burn for lets say 400 seconds - is packed enough to burn only for 250 seconds, can I assume that it will also stay the full burn (if I have adequate ballast/ loss of mass, etc) to compensate?

Paanwallah did say, some failures are successes in disguise...
Yea generally a fully announced test is to make sure our deterrence posture is known loud and clear to everyone concerned.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Vicky »

Vicky wrote: Edit: Upon further evaluation of the DRDO press release, I think this is just the final/further improved version of the 1S with more improvements in high alt/cold performance and simplified launchers. So, 1S will continue in this new avatar.
Additional note: Unlike 1S, the new Prime has multiple new conformal antennas similar to the one's seen in Astra - It's no longer just command guidance, it has full bidirectional datalink for non line of sight targets and LOAL. Great work. Hope the Army switches it's recent order to this version.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Indranil »

Keep some mithai's ready. DRDO tests missiles in bunches.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Karan M »

Vicky wrote:
Vicky wrote: Edit: Upon further evaluation of the DRDO press release, I think this is just the final/further improved version of the 1S with more improvements in high alt/cold performance and simplified launchers. So, 1S will continue in this new avatar.
Additional note: Unlike 1S, the new Prime has multiple new conformal antennas similar to the one's seen in Astra - It's no longer just command guidance, it has full bidirectional datalink for non line of sight targets and LOAL. Great work. Hope the Army switches it's recent order to this version.
The Army hasn't as of yet placed its follow on order, which will be of this design alone. This was developed specifically for them. IAF will also likely seek to modify its units to deploy the seeker equipped Akash and field a mix of both types wherever possible.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by hnair »

Do we still tell the pakis about tests or just reforward the NOTAM for BM tests?

If we still inform them, maybe it is time to get out of that “CBM”, BS which gives their end user-tests some form of technological legitimacy and equal-equal with Indian programs. It is easy for us to spot activity in their sites even if they don’t inform and same way the chinese will inform them of ours
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Anujan »

This is from 2019 from economic times, here is the clipping from DRDO https://www.drdo.gov.in/sites/default/f ... t_2019.pdf
Defence Ministry to decide on Army's Rs 10,000 crore Akash missiles proposal for Pakistan, China border

The proposal to acquire two regiments of the Akash Prime missiles which can be
deployed in high altitude areas to counter China and Pakistan would be discussed
at the meeting of the Defence Acquisition Council scheduled to be held today
New Delhi: Seeking to prevent any intrusion of aircraft through the mountainous borders with
Pakistan and China, the Defence Ministry is set to discuss a proposal to acquire two regiments of the
Akash Prime missiles which can be deployed in high altitude areas above 15,000 feet.
The new Akash missiles which will have an extended performance range than its predecessors are
being prepared to be deployed in high altitude areas in Ladakh which shares boundaries with both
Pakistan and China.

"The Defence Ministry is scheduled to consider the Army proposal worth around Rs 10,000 crore
for acquiring two regiments of the Akash Prime or extended performance Akash missiles. The Akash
Prime Missile is an upgraded version of the missile system already existing in the Army," government
sources told ANI.

This is from outlook in 2019
In recent development, Short Range Surface to Air Missile (SRSAM) global case has been
withdrawn and also awarded to Akash with upgrades of Seeker Technology, Reduced footprint for
weapon system elements, 360 degree engagement capability and high altitude/low temperature
operation, which is named as ''Akash Prime''.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by chetak »

A new version of the Akash Missile – ‘Akash Prime’ has been successfully tested from Integrated Test Range (ITR), Chandipur, Odisha today. The missile intercepted and destroyed an unmanned aerial target mimicking enemy aircrafts, in its maiden flight test after improvements: DRDO
via@ANI·12h


Image
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by srin »

https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 698998.ece
In comparison to the existing Akash System, Akash Prime is equipped with an indigenous active Radio Frequency (RF) seeker for improved accuracy. Other improvements also ensure more reliable performance under low temperature environment at higher altitudes,” a DRDO statement said. A modified ground system of the existing Akash system had been used for the flight test, it stated.
I think 1S has been renamed as Prime
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Anujan »

prasannasimha wrote:https://twitter.com/DfIlite/status/1442 ... 18279?s=20

what could this Veda Missile be?
Probably a satellite launch vehicle.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Prem Kumar »

The Akash has already demonstrated the capability to take out very fast, low flying, short range targets. This will be useful in the mountains, especially with its own RF seeker.
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