Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

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Prem Kumar
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Prem Kumar »

arvin wrote:Would like to be proven wrong, but this doesnt look like a MANPADS at all. They are supposed to be easy to operate and proliferate. Look, identify, say AoA, fire.
Joysticks and electro optic suite would require skilled hands. Looks more suitable for anti armour role.
Smells very fishy to me:

1) Its a design that the IA has not adopted so far
2) Will have plenty of ergonomic issues (joy-sticks, seat for an operator etc). Its a dream for endless trials, now with various human test-subjects too
3) This will keep DRDO busy with *some* MANPADS project, so that God-forbid, they don't build an alternative to the Igla-family (which if they do, can make MANPADS get into the no-import list)
4) After endless trials, a token order will be placed 7 years from now, while 10X that number will be placed for Igla. Some gent will come & explain how these are 2 different classes of missiles & why both are needed

If I were DRDO, I wouldn't touch this project with a long stick. I'll ask the IA why an indigenous Igla isn't on the cards?
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Karan M »

arvin wrote:Would like to be proven wrong, but this doesnt look like a MANPADS at all. They are supposed to be easy to operate and proliferate. Look, identify, say AoA, fire.
Joysticks and electro optic suite would require skilled hands. Looks more suitable for anti armour role.
Please see the following. Prem, you as well please.

Mistral standard
https://www.mbda-systems.com/product/mistral-manpads/

Mistral Atlas as well.
https://www.mbda-systems.com/product/mistral-atlas/

As long as there is a PSQR and GSQR which DRDO is following, it's OK. Hopefully they'd have learnt by now going for the technologically best or best performance runs up against IAs perception of what it wants.

Even otherwise, the IAF and IN will find it useful for their specific static fixed bases.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Prem Kumar »

Thanks Karan: read through those specs.

Still can't get over it. A MANPAD is simple & versatile - can even be used aboard Coast Guard ships. Its one of those weapons that can be manufactured in huge numbers, with significant export potential. We have the basic tech ready (esp with MANPATGM, seeker tech etc).

And just like the Americans have done with the Stinger, once you master the truly man-portable version, you can always create variants for jeep, ship, helicopter mounting etc.

Why is the IA giving the "stay away from the Igla class" message?

I will admit I am wrong if this GSQR is for *the entire MANPADS* requirement of the Armed Forces, which runs into ~6000 missiles (based on the 2010 requirements) & an order worth 27,000 Crores even at that time!
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Vicky »

@Indranil

Is there a chance that there are two missiles? An MPDMS and a MANPAD(VSHORADS)

I distinctly remember seeing a tender for manufacture of two prototype front sections of MPDMS which had a 10 cm dia missile with an aerospike on the seeker dome - Basically an Igla influenced design.

The current tender shows a 9 cm dia missile instead.

Is there a chance the V-666 is derived from the VSHORADS project while a separate MPDMS is also being pursued?

Could be a compromise approach instead of a one size fits all approach. A heavy Mistral style long range, easily lockable, decoy resistant two-operator missile for the plains with commonality for A2A and SPAAG role while a lightweight single-person Igla style unit for the mobility challenged mountains but with less decoy resistance and reduced lock reliability.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Indranil »

I remember that one. Yes MPDMS, SHORAD and V666 is confusing. I am going to follow the tenders for a little longer to have better clarity.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/delhidefence/status ... 89865?s=20 ---> Astra On-Board Computer (OBC) by VEM Technologies

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Vips »

8th Oct has passed and the missile test that was supposed to take place between 6th and 8th oct has not happened. This is the 3rd consecutive time that the planned missile test has not happened. Last month we did not test the A5 MIRV after making tall claims about it. DRDO took the excuse of testing it after 20 days . Well the 20 days time limit gets over on 15th October and there is not fresh NOTAM yet about it

WTF is wrong with DRDO? Don't they know the virtues of under promising and over delivering rather then the other way round??
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by kit »

When everyone with a sat and ship tracks you , being ambiguous helps. And there are a lot more coming
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by ShivS »

Vicky wrote:@Indranil

Is there a chance that there are two missiles? An MPDMS and a MANPAD(VSHORADS)

I distinctly remember seeing a tender for manufacture of two prototype front sections of MPDMS which had a 10 cm dia missile with an aerospike on the seeker dome - Basically an Igla influenced design.

The current tender shows a 9 cm dia missile instead.

Is there a chance the V-666 is derived from the VSHORADS project while a separate MPDMS is also being pursued?
.
This system is unlikely to replace the Igla. It’s significantly more complex and capable - and will cost multiples of the Igla.

This may be dedicated to defend high value assets such as artillery, armour, supply dumps, HQ, bridges etc. especially from small UAVs with low IR signature.

The only replacement for the Igla will be the next Igla - retraining many 000s of operators on a new system is a big ask unless there is a significant advantage.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by John »

ShivS wrote:This system is unlikely to replace the Igla. It’s significantly more complex and capable - and will cost multiples of the Igla.
Not sure what you mean by more complex? This seems to be a combination of different systems using a Manpad as its base with different launchers, similar to Mistral as highlighted earlier. Some of Igla systems procured earlier are NEOL and cannot purchase new ones as they don't meet our performance req (such as target tracking and being able to handle decoys).

Russia has offered Verba which is a new system as igla replacement. Most likely we will end up buying some as stop gap solution till this is fully developed.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by ShivS »

One example of complexity- 2 sensors in the loop, electro optical system and the missile IR sensor. A simpler system just works off the missile sensor.

This seems to be similar to the Mistral 3, will be a bit bulkier. Will weight around 45 kgs.

One of the Mistral 3’s key selling points is that it’s very effective against small UAVs.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by John »

ShivS wrote:This seems to be similar to the Mistral 3, will be a bit bulkier. Will weight around 45 kgs.
We are playing armchair quarterback here before even a single test flight, verba uses 3 sensors in the missile and weights 17 kg and tender clearly specifies it weights 25 kg. So you doubting the tender?

There is nothing to state it is command guided from the tender, it is IR guided missile we will learn more about no of different sensors it employs as it moves into testing phase.
Indranil wrote:Missile with launch Tube (25 kg±1 kg)
As I mentioned earlier it looks like a MANPAD with multiple launch platforms with varying degree of weight. From shoulder mounted to stabilized platform for vehicles and ships.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Rakesh »

Indranil
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Indranil »

Vips wrote:8th Oct has passed and the missile test that was supposed to take place between 6th and 8th oct has not happened. This is the 3rd consecutive time that the planned missile test has not happened. Last month we did not test the A5 MIRV after making tall claims about it. DRDO took the excuse of testing it after 20 days . Well the 20 days time limit gets over on 15th October and there is not fresh NOTAM yet about it

WTF is wrong with DRDO? Don't they know the virtues of under promising and over delivering rather then the other way round??
One thing that I have learned in following DRDO closely for the past couple of decades and especially in the last two years. If they don't report a test, it doesn't mean anything. NOTAM's are not even issued when not required.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by fanne »

I think NOTAM was a CBA agreed with TSP to report on missile test. We maybe following the CBA in spirit and letter as TSP is following the current CF.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by basant »

fanne wrote:I think NOTAM was a CBA agreed with TSP to report on missile test. We maybe following the CBA in spirit and letter as TSP is following the current CF.
NOTAMs are issued by many countries, including China. The CBM agreement wrt Pakistan was related to testing of ballistic missiles only.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by VinodTK »




Good explanation of the difference between Indian and Chinese S400 systems
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Karan M »

The information above is *wrong*. 40N6, the 400km missile is available for export to PRC too and they ordered it.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by John »

VinodTK wrote:Good explanation of the difference between Indian and Chinese S400 systems
Few incorrect information, we have no idea if China is getting 40n6. Unconfirmed Russian officials have said China is getting it along with all export customers and as missile has yet to officially be inducted by even Russia (not a single TEL has been seen with it) it may be while before anyone gets it.

Also each S-400 launcher can carry 2-16 missiles not 4 as stated in the video based on missile configuration that is chosen.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by brar_w »

There were reports that China received or had ordered/was approved for the 40N6E which is the export version of the 40N6 missile with a range that is generally quoted as 350 km in some or 380 km in other publications. Subsequently, the Rostec CEO confirmed to reporters in 2019 that China was getting the missile and that the shipment was lost due to a storm encountered by the vessel as it was being delivered. That was two years ago so they would have received replacements by now.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/2 ... -sea-floor
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by John »

I know I am little skeptical of 40n6 haven’t seen any of them being paraded around by Russia and only recently was it even tested. May be that story of a storm is just to cover up delays??
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Karan M »

All reports of a S400 deployment by PRC against India mention a range coverage of ~400km. Clearly the services/Intel are assuming 40N6E is in service with PRC.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Karan M »

brar_w wrote:There were reports that China received or had ordered/was approved for the 40N6E which is the export version of the 40N6 missile with a range that is generally quoted as 350 km in some or 380 km in other publications. Subsequently, the Rostec CEO confirmed to reporters in 2019 that China was getting the missile and that the shipment was lost due to a storm encountered by the vessel as it was being delivered. That was two years ago so they would have received replacements by now.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/2 ... -sea-floor
Yes that's the one. Both India and China are approved for this, as is Turkey. Logically all would have ordered it. 380/400km etc is meaningless in practical terms. The actual E likely means a difference from Russia specific customization in some key components etc.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by brar_w »

John wrote:I know I am little skeptical of 40n6 haven’t seen any of them being paraded around by Russia and only recently was it even tested. May be that story of a storm is just to cover up delays??
There have been some OSINT coverage of the 51P6A TEL being seen within deployed S-400 units in Russia. The late 2020 Janes presentation covered this as well. Unless someone has a closeup of the individual canisters and their markings it would be difficult to tell one from another though the 51P6A is the only TEL that is capable of launching the 40N6 missile (but it can launch others as well). Visually it is going to be very similar. The missile began being inducted into Russian service sometime in late 2018 so naturally it wouldn't yet have proliferated to every S-400 unit but as it begins to, we'll be seeing a lot more of those TEL's. Early during its development, folks confused it (or it was misreported and folks just went with it) with S-500's missile that were capable of exoatmospheric intercepts and thus would warrant a larger missile which would reduce the magazine in half. 40N6 or 40N6E isn't that weapon and you'd have 4 per TEL with them in visually fairly similar canisters.
Last edited by brar_w on 14 Oct 2021 17:59, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Roop »

Karan M wrote:The information above is *wrong*. 40N6, the 400km missile is available for export to PRC too and they ordered it.
Interesting. So Russia is flouting/ignoring the MTCR rules (China is not a member of MTCR).
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Karan M »

China is arguably Russia's key strategic partner. You can expect they've received far more than just the S-400. I'd fully expect a lot of the J-20 and other programs also had Russian input. The Chinese are taking the J-20 to exercises in Russia. They wouldn't do that elsewhere.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by jamwal »

Image

Any idea about this missile??
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Pratyush »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9M14_Malyutka

NATO reporting name AT3 Sagger.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Karan M »

Prem Kumar wrote:Thanks Karan: read through those specs.

Still can't get over it. A MANPAD is simple & versatile - can even be used aboard Coast Guard ships. Its one of those weapons that can be manufactured in huge numbers, with significant export potential. We have the basic tech ready (esp with MANPATGM, seeker tech etc).

And just like the Americans have done with the Stinger, once you master the truly man-portable version, you can always create variants for jeep, ship, helicopter mounting etc.

Why is the IA giving the "stay away from the Igla class" message?

I will admit I am wrong if this GSQR is for *the entire MANPADS* requirement of the Armed Forces, which runs into ~6000 missiles (based on the 2010 requirements) & an order worth 27,000 Crores even at that time!
A MANPAD has to be effective. With fast moving aircraft, a pedestal mounted system offers a more stable firing platform and a higher chance of success.

Igla comes with a pedestal setup too.
https://mobile.twitter.com/ralee85/stat ... 5520441345

So we might well have a design which is more simple and this one.

There cou
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Pratyush »

Igla deal for 5000 missiles is getting signed in January for about 5000 crores rupees.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Karan M »

This is the report on which the above is based.

Akash 2 regiments, Igla S, deals signed by Jan 2022.
Army MRSAM trials complete and induction by then (deal was already signed).

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 9.ece/amp/
In another category, while a global tender to procure Quick Reaction SAMs (QRSAMs) has been delayed, an indigenous project by the DRDO is moving ahead. “The DRDO has presented the proof of concept, and so far, three trials have been conducted,” one of the officials cited above said.
Proof of concept! :roll:

And DRDO is planning to offer it for user trials. If after this, they want a system redesign we can expect interminable delays.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Karan M »

Short Range SAMs (land variant) are on negative import list from December 2020. Are QRSAMs considered separate?!
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Prem Kumar »

Does anyone have the RFP details on the AD gun-missile system?

If 5000 Igla order is signed in Jan, where does this leave the indigenous MANPAD effort? Sure, our homegrown MANPAD is still in the design stage, but hope it doesn't become another "proof of concept"
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by arvin »

^^^
Most likely Igla that is imported will be pure shoulder fired version. Order will keep Putin happy.
We need our own design to customize for Man portable role, helis, land vehicles, ships etc. Order size will be hugh and cant be met with imports.
Plus these things are also used to drive agenda via friendly supplies.
Should have been mass produced long time back as part of IGMDP. But never too late.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by YashG »

Image

Report talks about ~ 250 single + 250 Multi launchers.
Above is a pic of igla multi launcher ( The seated version!)

with 500 Launchers, (10 Missiles in stock for each launcher = 5000) - Will it not leave space for inducting desi manpads later ?
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by John »

Any domestic manpad will take 5+ years to be inducted, we have lot of older igla which are NEOL which need to be replaced and this order is no where close to covering it. Original order couple years back was over 10k crores even that I don’t believe was not fully adequate.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Karan M »

My biggest concern was whether the Igla S issues were fixed. Looks like they were.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 1.ece/amp/
Since then there have been trials and retrials as there were deviations in the products fielded and the Army tried to avoid a single vendor situation arising out of non-compliance of some vendors which would result in cancellation of the tender as procedure. Eventually all three companies were declared complaint after the re-trails last year, according another official.

Another official source said that of the three contenders, the MBDA bid was the most expensive at about $3.68 bn, SAAB at about $2.6 bn and Rosoboronexport at around $1.47 bn. The benchmark price decided by the Army was just over $2 bn. This led to a division within the ministry at such a low bid from the Russians compared to the benchmark price arrived at by the Army
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Karan M »

These launchers will be split amongst Army, Navy and AF. While they appear to be substantial, I believe there is still space for a local alternative given IAs huge requirement.

My biggest concern is for QRSAM. It shouldn't be dropped under any flimsy circumstance.

The IAFs and IAs AD will see a quantum jump.

Overall requirements per India Strategic.
According to sources, Indian Army alone would need 5,175 VSHORAD missiles with 800 launcher systems. The figure could easily touch 6,000 missiles and 900 to 1,000 launchers by adding the IAF requirements. While the missile acquisition plans include direct import of a little over 2,000 missiles, the remaining will be assembled/license-produced within the country. The Government also needs to take a call whether these will be produced by BDL alone or the production could be split between public and private sector companies.
So we are importing around half the actual requirements going by the number of launchers. There is scope for a desi system.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Karan M »

This makes for grim reading provided it is true. It claims the trials were a sham. Provided the details are true - most likely sourced from one of the competitors.

https://stratpost.com/indias-vshorad-pr ... ight-path/
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Pratyush »

^^^ I remember reading this about igla over the last few years as well. So it tracks well with that.

If it is being sourced from competitors or not is a seperate matter.
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