Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

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Indranil
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Indranil »

dkhare wrote:On the Agni 1 Prime, does anyone see fins or spikes for a maneuverable reentry vehicle?
Image
dkhare wrote: Great news on the Ku band AESA seeker for the Astra! Mk1 or Mk2?
Guessing: Mk2 and SFDR.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by morem »

Indranil,
you did confirm in a tweet that this is a marv, right?
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Indranil »

The fins are visible in the picture above.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by jaysimha »

DRDO successfully test fires Enhanced Pinaka Rocket (MBRL) on 24th and 25th June 2021 at Integrated Test Range (ITR)
Posted On: 25 JUN 2021 6:46PM by PIB Delhi
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https://www.pib.gov.in/PressReleasePage ... ID=1730354

Twenty-five Enhanced Pinaka Rockets were launched in quick succession against targets at different ranges. All the mission objectives were met during the launches. The enhanced range version of Pinaka Rocket System can destroy targets at distances up to 45 kms.

All the flight articles were tracked by Range instruments including Telemetry, Radar and Electro Optical Tracking System deployed by ITR & Proof and Experimental Establishment (PXE).

The rocket system has been developed jointly by Pune based Armament Research and Development Establishment (ARDE) and High Energy Materials Research Laboratory (HEMRL) with manufacturing support from M/s Economic Explosives Limited, Nagpur. The development of Enhanced Pinaka system was taken up to achieve longer range performance.
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25 JUN 2021 6:34PM by PIB Delhi
DRDO successfully test fires Enhanced Range 122mm Caliber Rocket

https://pib.gov.in/Pressreleaseshare.aspx?PRID=1730350

Four enhanced range version of 122mm rockets were test fired with full instrumentation and they met the complete mission objectives. These rockets have been developed for Army applications and can destroy targets up to 40 km.

All the flight articles were tracked by Range instruments, including Telemetry, Radar and Electro Optical Tracking System deployed by ITR and Proof and Experimental Establishment (PXE).

The rocket systems have been developed jointly by Pune-based Armament Research and Development Establishment (ARDE) and High Energy Materials Research Laboratory (HEMRL) with manufacturing support from M/s Economic Explosives Limited, Nagpur. This enhanced rocket system would replace the existing 122mm Grad rockets.


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DRDO successfully flight tests New Generation Agni P Ballistic Missile at 1055 hrs on June 28, 2021
Posted On: 28 JUN 2021 12:21PM by PIB Delhi


https://pib.gov.in/PressReleasePage.aspx?PRID=1730828

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Agni P is a new generation advanced variant of Agni class of missiles. It is a canisterised missile with range capability between 1,000 and 2,000 kms.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Pratyush »

Looking at the pictures. I find the TEL front end and the sliding tarpaulin cover to be most interesting part of the excercise. :D

It's not TFTA but will get the job done quite nicely.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Prem Kumar »

If we've mastered composites to a substantial degree, is it worth trying to manufacture the Pinaka series rockets using composites? Lesser weight, more compact rockets, increased range or a bigger warhead

Not sure about the cost & ease of manufacturing (though both get better with mass production)
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Prem Kumar »

Indranil wrote:The fins are visible in the picture above.
Indranil: in the pics I've seen so far, I can't make out the fins. If you look at Agni-2 pictures, the fins are prominent
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by lakshmanM »

Prem Kumar wrote:
Indranil wrote:The fins are visible in the picture above.
Indranil: in the pics I've seen so far, I can't make out the fins. If you look at Agni-2 pictures, the fins are prominent
Agni-2 has a blunt nose RV, it creates a wider shockwave. Hence, A2 needs bigger fins for trimming. In A-P they are for a different purpose - maneuvering.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by RKumar »

Prem Kumar wrote:
Indranil wrote:The fins are visible in the picture above.
Indranil: in the pics I've seen so far, I can't make out the fins.
If you look closely at the end of the cone, magically fins will show up :mrgreen: :P
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by kit »

I think the warhead cone has manoeuvring thrusters ??.. the cep might be in single digits like that of the later versions of prithvi
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by mody »

Prem Kumar wrote:If we've mastered composites to a substantial degree, is it worth trying to manufacture the Pinaka series rockets using composites? Lesser weight, more compact rockets, increased range or a bigger warhead

Not sure about the cost & ease of manufacturing (though both get better with mass production)
The new enhanced pinaka rockets perhaps are made from composites. Most probably the propellant has also changed to a NEPE based propellant.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by darshhan »

Prem Kumar wrote:
Indranil wrote:The fins are visible in the picture above.
Indranil: in the pics I've seen so far, I can't make out the fins. If you look at Agni-2 pictures, the fins are prominent
Expand the pic. It will be clear to you.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Prem Kumar »

Ok, once I expand and look closely, I can see it. Its where the warhead meets the grey band
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Nikhil_Naya »

Cain Marko wrote: All of this raises certain questions:
1. What happens to CM speed if it has to fly super low altitude? I'm assuming ranges and speeds are given at optimum altitudes but am not sure. In general speed and range degrade at lower altitudes?
2. What is the terrain like between India and major Chinese installations, say kashghar? Hotan? over the tibetan plateau, there should be plenty of unrestricted LOS for ADS to get into action? AFter all, ship-based systems are designed to tackle low fliers at low ranges (35-40km), right?
3. How extensive are Chinese ISR assets? Seems to me they are loaded with sats, UAVs, AEW, you name it. And layered ADS. HVA will be protected. They just moved an S400 to Tibet recently.

All in all, it seems to me that closer to the border, say within 500km, the Brahmos remains India's best shot at least initially to get a breakthrough. Nirbhay's greatest damage will probably be in Central theater, and possibly eastern although at that point, you are looking at extreme ranges. Perhaps enemy forward formations might be another target instead of using air assets or bmos types - but with these, mobility could be an issue?.

This is not to say that India could do without ITCM/Nirbhay - no, it is an absolute must, and a great addition to the quiver. I'm just thinking about where and how these might be used. It doesn't help that most of US "shekinaw" stuff has been used against decrepit ME states with little to no AD assets. India doesn't have that luxury.
Great questions CM, as your namesake the CM is a great mix of what seems simple enough - but is in fact a great balance of aerodynamics, power, fuel burn etc...etc...
1 - Most CM's are designed to fly at low altitudes. If you observe most use a simple planform to generate the highest possible lift with least drag. Most CM's rarely will fly a 'hi-hi-hi' profile of attack as that would defeat the whole purpose of having a naturally stealthy attack profile.
2 - Yes, most ADS systems will have a good LOS over longer distances than they would otherwise have in the plateau region (Hotan/ Kashghar). However if you map the distance from Kashghar prefecture to Leh - its about 600 kms as the bird flies - leaving 400 kms of 'manouvering space'. If you see Kashghar, you will see that there are mountains towards the border - allowing the natural hiding space - heck, we could even have a CM come in from the 'wrong' direction!
Shipborne radar have an advantage of little or no obstacles allowing for longer range - however for low flying aircraft all radars will have the issue with the horizon due to curvature. Land based radars will have other obstacles to contend (large boulders, trees, etc) will add to radar clutter. Even the flattest of surfaces have enough obstacles.
3 - Yes the Chinese have a huge range of assets. However, thats where other systems come into play.

The lead strike will probably be a mix of SEAD/ DEAD ( Rudram+ Brahmos) punching a hole in the wall then LRCM's (ITCM's) take over the attack (salvos/ saturation attacks) and then use waypoint navigation to targets like transport nodes, dams (I am working on a map of some targets within the 500-2000 km range - just for kicks)
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by brar_w »

The math on direct attack and stand off strike weapons is fairly straight forward. You have your threats and an operational plan. From this you can begin framing requirements around the number of targets you will need to strike in any possible contingency. From there you then look at the number of time-critical targets that you may need to strike, the number of important but not time-critical targets, the number of moving targets, the number of fixed targets across the highly defended - non-defended spectrum. Now based on this, you price out what you are willing to pay (and set the technical limits) to get that and this is how you develop requirements for munitions and then begin to buy the inventories in peacetime that you think you'll need in conflict. In many instances the # of targets that you may need to strike often ends up determining inventory size and ultimately acts as ceiling on cost and performance of a weapon.

Weapons survivability is not just a function of speed alone. You can also gain survivability by signature reduction, by thermal reduction, by adding better navigation, terrain following, and even sense and avoid sensors on your weapon. Most important is to ensure your PNT is survivable as accuracy reduction may lead to a mission kill otherwise. Additionally, your own SEAD, and now days increasingly Cyber, can aid in the effectiveness of your weapon delivery. So you invest across this portfolio of capability. Think of it is as a pyramid with the top being dedicated to your most expensive weapons that will be used against the most well defended, and most time-critical targets, and the bottom your volume fires that you need in large quantities because of the sheer number of targets you need to strike as per your O plans. In between the two you have your various trades around speed, signature, seekers, range, and warhead - all things that contribute to cost and thus inventory size. You will never have the most capable and expensive weapon in high quantity and thus protocols around how it is employed are going to be drastically different compared to a cheaper weapon that is available in higher quantity. There are instances from the Gulf War where the air-force commanders basically gave up on asking US Army ATACMS strikes at sensitive targets because it took just too long to de-conflict and get the Army commander on the ground to approve strike. This (the non-deconfliction bit) was on account of having a scarce resources in theater and thus needing to preserve it for the right type of targets and organic combat unit needs.

This is dynamic and the ratio, and quantity in each category changes based on how your opponent is modernizing (see THIS for some context) or presenting or likely to present its forces. So its a matter of having the right quantity of the right type to meet the need. Subsonic/ Supersonic/Hypersonic and short/med/long ranged weapons are all part of this mix and all are needed because the right combination results in the right set of attributes that can allow one to affordably build up the desired inventories. There are times when a $2 Million dollar cruise missile may in fact, on a per effects basis, be cheaper than a $30K direct attack munition so it is always beneficial to run those scenarios, look at targets a potential opponent is presenting and right size your weapon portfolios and inventories accordingly. Similarly, you may determine that the sheer number of targets you may need to neutralize using SO weaponry, may make it beneficial to buy a cheaper effector and invest some money in SEAD so that the effectiveness of the strike campaign can be enhanced without the added expense of a more expensive consumable. Imagine if the US Navy had to field a Mach 2 class TLAM replacement - the fielded inventory will be a fraction of the fielded TLAM inventory and they won't have enough to strike the number of targets they may need. A fleet of 160 Growlers on the other hand can make those TLAM's and J-series direct attack munitions more lethal and survivable so it's one possible way of mixing and matching capability and investing in the portfolio of capabilities as opposed to a single system.

A well designed subsonic cruise missile with the ability to fly low, and with waypoint navigation is not an easy target to take out at scale (assuming that this is how it is employed). You're not talking about 1 or two missiles here but a potential air-base having to confront dozens of them approaching from different directions. Paper capability may not always translate to real world efficacy when it comes to air-defense systems as technical (weather, clutter, jamming, down-times, etc) and human factors often play a role and air-defenses always have vulnerabilities that can be exploited by kinetic and non kinetic means. One can look at how Loitering munitions and relatively unsophisticated UAV's have performed in recent conflicts against air-defense systems that,on paper, should have been able to deal with them.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Pratyush »

I was looking at the specifications for the Israeli sea breaker missile. The more I looked at it. The more I realised that India already has all the building blocks for such a weapon. The flight control system for both SAAW, and ITCM. the seeker head from SAAW. All that is required is a very small gas turbine for a vehicle of this class. Manik might be too large.

Such a vehicle concept will also be quite handy in terms of dealing with S400 type system as it can also be used as a low cost air / ground launched decoy.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by darshhan »

Pratyush wrote:I was looking at the specifications for the Israeli sea breaker missile. The more I looked at it. The more I realised that India already has all the building blocks for such a weapon. The flight control system for both SAAW, and ITCM. the seeker head from SAAW. All that is required is a very small gas turbine for a vehicle of this class. Manik might be too large.

Such a vehicle concept will also be quite handy in terms of dealing with S400 type system as it can also be used as a low cost air / ground launched decoy.
How can you be so cruel to our Military procurement people and MOD officials? By giving such suggestions you are depriving them of a 1000 sq metre bungalow in Gurgaon and a farmhouse in Bijwasan. How will they afford the membership of their local golf club? And don't you want them to enjoy their vacations in Switzerland? How cold and callous of you. What has the world come to?
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Pratyush »

Sticking with an Indian supplier can also permit what you have listed above.

So it is quite neutral.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by darshhan »

Pratyush wrote:Sticking with an Indian supplier can also permit what you have listed above.

So it is quite neutral.
Low self esteem of Indians is responsible for complicating the issue. Our mil procurement guys like to take commissions from white people. Taking commissions from brown people is beneath their dignity.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Aditya_V »

It has got nothing to do with brown people low self esteem etc, commissions from foreign companies are settled abroad, usually to children/ relatives based abroad in US/ Dubai / Singapore. Making it out of reach for it to traced within India.

Anyways why is talk in the Indian Missile thread, every thread is being run down with negativity since pet projects or way things in the world dont work to a certain wishes of a certain people.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by darshhan »

Aditya_V wrote:It has got nothing to do with brown people low self esteem etc, commissions from foreign companies are settled abroad, usually to children/ relatives based abroad in US/ Dubai / Singapore. Making it out of reach for it to traced within India.

Anyways why is talk in the Indian Missile thread, every thread is being run down with negativity since pet projects or way things in the world dont work to a certain wishes of a certain people.
Relax. The post was made in jest. The context was mil people's love of imports. No need to take everything so seriously.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by SSridhar »

darshhan wrote:Low self esteem of Indians is responsible for complicating the issue. Our mil procurement guys like to take commissions from white people. Taking commissions from brown people is beneath their dignity.
darshhan, you have been skating on very thin ice. Take it as a warning from Admin. And, do not reply to this, for that will only complicate matters more for you.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by ramana »

I think the Agni Prime wide range is an indicator of its mission and capability.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by darshhan »

ramana wrote:I think the Agni Prime wide range is an indicator of its mission and capability.
Although its impact on the future battlefield will be decided by its manufacturing rate. That is if it is ordered by Army/AF for conventional roles.

By the way where does this leave Shaurya, considering the fact that there is a significant overlap between both the missiles?
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by ramana »

Purely conventional role for Shourya.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Pratyush »

ramana wrote:Purely conventional role for Shourya.
In conventional role will it not overlap with Brahmos ER.

Or the difference in payload weight will remove the overlap.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Aditya_V »

Pratyush wrote:
ramana wrote:Purely conventional role for Shourya.
In conventional role will it not overlap with Brahmos ER.

Or the difference in payload weight will remove the overlap.
We do not have unlimited numbers for Brahmos ER, and different targets will require different methods. and unfortunately we have more targets than weapons.
Last edited by Aditya_V on 02 Jul 2021 11:47, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Prem Kumar »

ramana wrote:Purely conventional role for Shourya.
There was an emergency induction authorization for Shaurya by Modi sarkar in Oct 2020. But we don't know of any firm orders & knowing our glacial pace, its open to question if any actual inductions have happened.

Moreover, the October authorization put Shaurya under the SFC, which makes one wonder if its a conventional strike missile. An induction under SFC for a strategic role would also square with the lack of information on the # of systems ordered, if any.

IMO, we have a "doctrinal blindspot", which I had referred to in one of my posts: we don't have a conventional BM doctrine that's under the Army Artillery's command, be it Shourya or Prithvi or any of the Pra-series missiles.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by jamwal »

When did nod for Shaurya happen? Any details?
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Prem Kumar »

jamwal wrote:When did nod for Shaurya happen? Any details?
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... NFQuO.html

There was this announcement after the Shaurya test in Oct 2020, but silence since then
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Prasad »

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Cain Marko »

Pratyush wrote:
ramana wrote:Purely conventional role for Shourya.
In conventional role will it not overlap with Brahmos ER.

Or the difference in payload weight will remove the overlap.
By Brahmos ER, are you referring to the ER range 900km missile? Or are you referring to some next gen hypersonic variant? In either case, the Shaurya is quite different:
For starters, it is much larger
Second, it has far greater range and payload capabilities
Third, it is much, much faster - almost twice the speed - truly hypersonic
Unlike the Bmos, it has no skimming, terrain hugging capabilities. It has a quasi ballistic trajectory.

In terms of use case - Bmos is almost entirely a battlespace management asset. The Shaurya has a theater level role (not that these can't overlap). It is India's expensive, non-nuclear response at long ranges. Another possibility is using the Shaurya as a sea-denial asset targeting larger targets at long distances, somewhat like the Df-21D
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by nam »

Agni P is being told as a replacement for Agni 1. Agni 1 was meant for Pak and I don't see why Agni P needs to be fins to evade ABM? Pak doesn't have one, nor will have one.

So it is meant for China. But then what is the point of having a 2K range BM with nukes? And why an all composite missile. It is not as if we have extract the maximum distance for a missile size. Pak major cities, Lahore, Karachi, Slumbad is within 100KM from our borders!

I feel Agni P is the template for a ASBM, against PLAN. You need a compact BM with ability to host it on IN DDG, 2K range (distance from India to A&N), anti-ABM measure and cold launch to prevent damage to launching ships..

Voila and you have Agni P
Last edited by nam on 04 Jul 2021 02:05, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by nam »

“The Agni-P missile would further strengthen India’s credible deterrence capabilities,” Singh said
The RM mentions only deterrence capabilities. no mention of "strategic".
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by kit »

Does the Shaurya or Agni P have "aircraft carrier" killer role/capability?
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Prasad »

PLARF launch pads in northern China are in the 2500km range from northern MP. Right within the Agni P envelope.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Cain Marko »

Nikhil_Naya wrote:
Cain Marko wrote: All of this raises certain questions:
1. What happens to CM speed if it has to fly super low altitude? I'm assuming ranges and speeds are given at optimum altitudes but am not sure. In general speed and range degrade at lower altitudes?
2. What is the terrain like between India and major Chinese installations, say kashghar? Hotan? over the tibetan plateau, there should be plenty of unrestricted LOS for ADS to get into action? AFter all, ship-based systems are designed to tackle low fliers at low ranges (35-40km), right?
3. How extensive are Chinese ISR assets? Seems to me they are loaded with sats, UAVs, AEW, you name it. And layered ADS. HVA will be protected. They just moved an S400 to Tibet recently.

All in all, it seems to me that closer to the border, say within 500km, the Brahmos remains India's best shot at least initially to get a breakthrough. Nirbhay's greatest damage will probably be in Central theater, and possibly eastern although at that point, you are looking at extreme ranges. Perhaps enemy forward formations might be another target instead of using air assets or bmos types - but with these, mobility could be an issue?.

This is not to say that India could do without ITCM/Nirbhay - no, it is an absolute must, and a great addition to the quiver. I'm just thinking about where and how these might be used. It doesn't help that most of US "shekinaw" stuff has been used against decrepit ME states with little to no AD assets. India doesn't have that luxury.
Great questions CM, as your namesake the CM is a great mix of what seems simple enough - but is in fact a great balance of aerodynamics, power, fuel burn etc...etc...
1 - Most CM's are designed to fly at low altitudes. If you observe most use a simple planform to generate the highest possible lift with least drag. Most CM's rarely will fly a 'hi-hi-hi' profile of attack as that would defeat the whole purpose of having a naturally stealthy attack profile.
2 - Yes, most ADS systems will have a good LOS over longer distances than they would otherwise have in the plateau region (Hotan/ Kashghar). However if you map the distance from Kashghar prefecture to Leh - its about 600 kms as the bird flies - leaving 400 kms of 'manouvering space'. If you see Kashghar, you will see that there are mountains towards the border - allowing the natural hiding space - heck, we could even have a CM come in from the 'wrong' direction!
Shipborne radar have an advantage of little or no obstacles allowing for longer range - however for low flying aircraft all radars will have the issue with the horizon due to curvature. Land based radars will have other obstacles to contend (large boulders, trees, etc) will add to radar clutter. Even the flattest of surfaces have enough obstacles.
3 - Yes the Chinese have a huge range of assets. However, thats where other systems come into play.

The lead strike will probably be a mix of SEAD/ DEAD ( Rudram+ Brahmos) punching a hole in the wall then LRCM's (ITCM's) take over the attack (salvos/ saturation attacks) and then use waypoint navigation to targets like transport nodes, dams (I am working on a map of some targets within the 500-2000 km range - just for kicks)
I like it. Thank you Nikhilji, learnt a few things.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Haridas »

Prem Kumar wrote:
ramana wrote:Purely conventional role for Shourya.
There was an emergency induction authorization for Shaurya by Modi sarkar in Oct 2020. But we don't know of any firm orders & knowing our glacial pace, its open to question if any actual inductions have happened.

Moreover, the October authorization put Shaurya under the SFC, which makes one wonder if its a conventional strike missile. An induction under SFC for a strategic role would also square with the lack of information on the # of systems ordered, if any.

IMO, we have a "doctrinal blindspot", which I had referred to in one of my posts: we don't have a conventional BM doctrine that's under the Army Artillery's command, be it Shourya or Prithvi or any of the Pra-series missiles.
IMHO Submarine launched Ballistic missile has strategic role onlee hence SFC has B05 (Shourya is called B05 in this configuration) . All other use of Shourya varients purely conventional role onree.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by jamwal »

https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/co ... 221094.ece

Bharat Dynamics signs up for supply of Akash missiles to IAF
Total order book at ₹8,683 cr
Bharat Dynamics Limited has signed a contract worth ₹499 crore with the Ministry of Defence to manufacture and supply Akash missiles to the Indian Air Force.
“BDL has already received export leads from some countries expressing interest in procuring the missile. The company has a well-established infrastructure and expertise to execute these orders and meet the customer delivery schedule,” h
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Aditya_V »

By any chance this order is for Akash 2
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