Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

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srai
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by srai »

Lisa wrote:May I ask if India still has missiles like this in service,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novator_KS-172

AFAIK, KS-172 never got developed further. In the 1990s it was displayed around airshows, but that is as far as it got—just mockups.

New generation of LR-AAMs are being inducted into the IAF. Enhanced variants under development.

Astra Mk.1 (100km+) [inducted 2020]
Astra Mk.2 DP (120km+) [R&D - next 5-years]
SFDR (150km+) [R&D - next 10-years]

Meteor (150km+) [inducted 2020]
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Lisa »

Thank you. Just asking because wanted to understand how puki Awacs can be made toast. IMHO, these Awacs should be sorted out first in any new mission.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Prasad »

Those would be targetted by long range SAMs rather than AAMs most likely.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Indranil »

I make a guess. Astra Mk2 will be operationalized by end of 2022. The propulsion is mastered. The seeker is mastered. I don't see how it will take more than 2 years. Also, I expect SFDR to be operational by 2025.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by nam »

Lisa wrote:Thank you. Just asking because wanted to understand how puki Awacs can be made toast. IMHO, these Awacs should be sorted out first in any new mission.
My view, there will be a A2A version of NGARM with a active seeker(along with the passive seeker) for AWACS. I am fairly certain it is part of the current testing plans.

There is no reason, otherwise to create a bigger Astra with dual pulse for only A2G role.

If Astra 2 with dual pulse can go up to 160km, we can only imagine how far NGARM with dual pulse can gone.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by brar_w »

There are many reasons for a SEAD/DEAD weapon would be distinct from an air to air missile and why merely scaling an air to air missile might not get you there. The trajectories, and warhead requirements for one are different. It’s target driven and not commonality driven.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Kartik »

Indranil wrote:I make a guess. Astra Mk2 will be operationalized by end of 2022. The propulsion is mastered. The seeker is mastered. I don't see how it will take more than 2 years. Also, I expect SFDR to be operational by 2025.
While that would be amazing, I hope it doesn't mean that the Astra Mk1 orders would get capped awaiting Astra Mk2 induction. the IAF and IN need large stocks of the Astra Mk1 as well so that almost all air superiority and multi role fighters are equipped with it.

Is there any further news on Astra Mk1 integration with Tejas Mk1?
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Prem Kumar »

Wanted to bring attention to a couple of doctrinal blindspots vis-a-vis BMs and BMDs.

1) Regarding BMs, the recent HT article reveals how the RAW chief Dhasmana warned his ISI counterpart that we had Prithvis fueled & ready, in case they didn't release Wing Co Abhinandan. It demonstrates that Prithvi has a conventional strike role. Which brings up 2 sub-topics:

a) Why is it still under SFC and not under the command of Army Artillery?
b) Why is it only Prithvi that's deployed for conventional BM strikes when we have Shaurya ready for more than a decade. Plus the "Pr" series: Prahaar, Pragati, Pralay, Pranash etc. What's holding up their induction, which would help us strike deep?

2) Regarding BMDs, why is it treated as something that's only supposed to protect cities from a nuke-strike? What about its conventional role?

Check the video released today about Iran's conventional BM strike against the US base last year. By their own admission, the US, without their 2 hour warning, would've suffered 100-150 KIA & loss of 30-40 aircraft!



In our case, we have a fully-ready BMD Phase-1 but awaiting orders. We're twiddling thumbs, waiting for AD-1/AD-2 and what not. Phase-1 should be ordered in numbers to protect airbases, forward deployed troop concentrations, ammunition/fuel storage areas etc. We know for a fact that the Chinese doctrine involves an overwhelming conventional missile first strike. We can expect several orders more missiles than what was seen in the Iran strike. Yet, we are blissfully unprepared for this.

Conventional BMs won't have MIRVs or complex trajectories. So, even our BMD Phase-1 will be quite robust in defense.

We should come up with a conventional BM & BMD doctrine that will help in both offense and defense
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by raghava »

Prem Kumar wrote: b) Why is it only Prithvi that's deployed for conventional BM strikes when we have Shaurya ready for more than a decade. Plus the "Pr" series: Prahaar, Pragati, Pralay, Pranash etc. What's holding up their induction, which would help us strike deep?


the big takeaway for me from this video was that Iran planned 27 missiles and fired 16 at one (albeit big) airbase. Assuming our missiles are more accurate than the Iranian ones, we would need at least 10 missiles per airbase...

I sincerely hope we have the huge number of conventional SRBMs required for an intense 2 front war...
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by brar_w »

raghava wrote: the big takeaway for me from this video was that Iran planned 27 missiles and fired 16 at one (albeit big) airbase. Assuming our missiles are more accurate than the Iranian ones, we would need at least 10 missiles per airbase...

I sincerely hope we have the huge number of conventional SRBMs required for an intense 2 front war...
Not easy to deduce that. For starters, the US only uses a small portion of the Iraqi base that was under attack here. Secondly, the attack and targets chosen by Iran were undefended and their intention was a one time strike and not part of an ongoing conflict, where the tactical need would be different (to render the air-base inoperative for a particular amount of time). Had this been a larger more permament CENTCOM base then they would have had to use different tactics and a different raid size. Target planning is essentially an effects based exercise. What effect are you trying to bring to bear, how well is the target defended, and how and what the conventional escalation looks like. So it will vary greatly from scenario to scenario. For example, the USAF has demonstrated an 80-JDAM sortie for air-base attack using the B-2. But there may be perfectly useful effects at a quarter of that payload depending upon what you are trying to achieve. So it really depends what targets you want to render useless, and the overall effects you are trying to create. Finally, it is also a question of your own ISR capability and your opponents C-ISR capability. So if there is a huge mismatch there then you can use fixed attack fires very effectively. But if that space is highly contested then you may need more dynamic targeting options. There may be 50 targets you may want to strike at a fixed location. But unless you have great ISR (and/or your opponent not so great C-ISR), it gets difficult to filter that down to a handful and/or prioritize based on importance. ISR is equally, or even more important than having the fires capability itself. You don't wan't to run out of high-quality/relevant targets before you run out of your kinetic options. ISR is often the limiting factor, particularly with long range strike as kill chains get long and coordination and deconfliction come into play.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by srai »

SAAW mass raid would be more effective than few BM.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by jaysimha »

https://www1.nseindia.com/index_nse.htm
Bharat Dynamics Limited --> Company Information. --> Corporate Announcements -->View All.
Updates
BHARAT DYNAMICS LIMITED has informed the Exchange regarding 'Order received for MRSAM Missile Rear Sections Reg'.
https://www1.nseindia.com/corporate/BDL ... 032021.pdf

BDL received order amounting to Rs.372.98 Crore (excluding GST) towards supply of MRSAM Missile Rear Sections for Indian Air Force deliverables. The order has to be executed on or before 30.11.2023 in lots.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Prem Kumar »

srai wrote:SAAW mass raid would be more effective than few BM.
Several reasons that speak in favor of BMs:

1) Cheaper
2) We don't risk sending a plane/pilot into a heavily defended airspace around an airbase
3) With good intel, you can hit an airbase at near real-time (when you can maximize impact) with a BM than sending a plane

This is not to say either-or, but to give ourselves one more arrow in the quiver. Don't see why we should relinquish this option. Its like saying we'll intercept intruders by scrambling jets, while ignoring SAMs (which was IAF's philosophy until recently)
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by srai »

^^^
I was just pointing out that BM are relatively less precise weapons to destroy specific targets at an airbase. Basically 16 BM each with 1000kg warhead did not manage to do too much damage to the vitals of the airbase. Yes, they could have destroyed more assets if they had better intelligence and timed their strike accordingly. They were an hour too late.

Even with the BM, better to use multiple mini-smart warheads instead of one large warhead, IMO. The BM would get you to the airbase but the mini-smart warheads would then seek out to destroy specific targets on the ground.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by brar_w »

srai wrote:^^^
I was just pointing out that BM are relatively less precise weapons to destroy specific targets at an airbase. Basically 16 BM each with 1000kg warhead did not manage to do too much damage to the vitals of the airbase. Yes, they could have destroyed more assets if they had better intelligence and timed their strike accordingly. They were an hour too late.

Even with the BM, better to use multiple mini-smart warheads instead of one large warhead, IMO. The BM would get you to the airbase but the mini-smart warheads would then seek out to destroy specific targets on the ground.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7088&p=2487845#p2487845
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Aditya_V »

srai wrote:^^^
I was just pointing out that BM are relatively less precise weapons to destroy specific targets at an airbase. Basically 16 BM each with 1000kg warhead did not manage to do too much damage to the vitals of the airbase. Yes, they could have destroyed more assets if they had better intelligence and timed their strike accordingly. They were an hour too late.

Even with the BM, better to use multiple mini-smart warheads instead of one large warhead, IMO. The BM would get you to the airbase but the mini-smart warheads would then seek out to destroy specific targets on the ground.
Look both sides coordinated, Iran had to show retaliation tots public without causing US casualties and that is exactly what happened, US also wanted to placate Iran as Trump didn't want a conflict after killing a top general. Dont read too much into this.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Prem Kumar »

srai wrote:^^^
I was just pointing out that BM are relatively less precise weapons to destroy specific targets at an airbase. Basically 16 BM each with 1000kg warhead did not manage to do too much damage to the vitals of the airbase. Yes, they could have destroyed more assets if they had better intelligence and timed their strike accordingly. They were an hour too late.

Even with the BM, better to use multiple mini-smart warheads instead of one large warhead, IMO. The BM would get you to the airbase but the mini-smart warheads would then seek out to destroy specific targets on the ground.
The reason Iran wasn't successful was because the US had a space-based early warning system. Probably the only country to have that. Otherwise, it'd have been devastating.

With improvements in BM accuracy (Prithvi for instance has single digit CEP), we can target quite precisely.

Agree with you that a BM as a mothership, releasing smart-weapons in the end-game is a very good idea! It can "get there fast & be very precise"
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by ramana »

Prem, Read above. All that is smoke and mirrors. It was all match fixed. many many people were happy.

And SAAW will do more effective damage fro stand-off
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by basant »

Hemant Kumar Rout @TheHemantRout
#JustIn
@DRDO_India successfully tests Solid Fuel Ducted Ramjet (SFDR) technology from a defence facility off #Odisha coast. All subsystems including the ground booster motor perform as expected. Many new technologies proven during the test.File pic
@XpressOdisha

Image

@NewIndianXpress
1:55 PM · Mar 5, 2021
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by amitverma »

Congrats @DRDO

Does anyone have a high-resolution picture of the missile?

Got one

Image
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Kakarat »

https://twitter.com/DRDO_India/status/1 ... 3906713601
DRDO successfully conducted flight test of Solid Fuel Ducted Ramjet (SFDR) Technology today at around 1030 hrs from ITR Chandipur. All the subsystems including the ground booster motor performed as per expectation.
Image

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1367756480963698689
JUST IN: The @DRDO_India has just conducted another flight test of Solid Fuel Ducted Ramjet (SFDR) technology.
Image
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Prem Kumar »

This is great - happy to see that they are working to a schedule & hitting the timelines.

Is SFDR going to be a "throttle'able" Ramjet, like the Meteor?
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Prem Kumar »

ramana wrote:Prem, Read above. All that is smoke and mirrors. It was all match fixed. many many people were happy.

And SAAW will do more effective damage fro stand-off
Understood sir. I am making a case for "conventional use" of both BM & BMD technologies. We seem to not have these in our doctrines, which is a big miss, IMO.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Kakarat »

https://pib.gov.in/PressReleasePage.aspx?PRID=1702670
Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) successfully carried out a flight demonstration based on Solid Fuel Ducted Ramjet (SFDR) technology from Integrated Test Range Chandipur off the coast of Odisha at around 1030 hrs on March 05, 2021. All the subsystems, including the booster motor and nozzle-less motor, performed as expected. During the test, many new technologies were proven, including Solid Fuel based Ducted Ramjet technology.

Successful demonstration of Solid Fuel based Ducted Ramjet technology has provided DRDO with a technological advantage which will enable it to develop long range air-to-air missiles. At present, such technology is available only with a handful of countries in the world. During the test, air launch scenario was simulated using a booster motor. Subsequently, the nozzle-less booster accelerated it to the required Mach number for Ramjet operation.

The performance of the missile was monitored using the data captured by Electro Optical, Radar and Telemetry instruments deployed by ITR and confirmed successful demonstration of the mission objectives. The launch was monitored by senior scientists of various DRDO labs, including Defence Research & Development Laboratory (DRDL), Research Centre Imarat (RCI) and High Energy Materials Research Laboratory(HEMRL).

Raksha Mantri Shri Rajnath Singh congratulated the scientistsof DRDO,Indian Air Force and the Industry on the successful flight test of SFDR.

Secretary Department of Defence R&D and Chairman DRDO Dr G Satheesh Reddy also congratulated the team involved in the successful flight test.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Aditya_V »

So will SFDR even in aircraft carry a booster and how does Meteor operate, or should the launching aircraft be at a certain minimum speed to launch Ramjet missiles?

Edited Later: Meteor has a solid fuel booster which propels the missile to Mach 3 when the Ramjet kicks in , so presumably SFDR will also have booster but presumably will become smaller in when carried in aircraft.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by fanne »

Booster was at least today to carry the missile to required altitude and speed (as if mimicking a fighter plane) and then let go as a plane will let go sfdr.
On plane do we need a booster? From ramjet to work is there a high initial velocity? Don’t know
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by John »

fanne wrote:Booster was at least today to carry the missile to required altitude and speed (as if mimicking a fighter plane) and then let go as a plane will let go sfdr.
On plane do we need a booster? From ramjet to work is there a high initial velocity? Don’t know
Yes there still needs to be booster (smaller booster than the one used for land launch) as without it the plane would need to traveling past supersonic to release the missile (don’t quote me on it I am propulsion expert) which limits its usage.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Kakarat »

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by YashG »

WoW! Great News. Is it me or is it real - Missile development is going supersonic for India. Our friends will be shivering in their salwars!
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by YashG »

Prem Kumar wrote:This is great - happy to see that they are working to a schedule & hitting the timelines.

Is SFDR going to be a "throttle'able" Ramjet, like the Meteor?
Do you mean thrust modulation?

"The configuration of the SFDR is similar to the solid propellant ramjet - solid booster combo engine that powers the Akash missile. Unlike the Akash ramjet, SFDR features thrust modulation using hot gas flow controller."

https://twitter.com/vkthakur/status/1003449543982080000
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by SSridhar »

Will buying India’s BrahMos missiles give the Philippines an edge in South China Sea dispute with Beijing? - South China Morning Post
Manila’s planned acquisition of the world’s fastest supersonic cruise missiles from India would boost the Philippine armed forces’ ability to defend coastal areas amid an ongoing dispute with Beijing over the South China Sea, according to analysts.

Jointly developed by India and Russia, the BrahMos PJ-10 can be fired from ships, submarines, aircraft and ground launchers. The missile, which has a range of 290km and flies at three times the speed of sound, was tested several times last year by Indian armed forces at sea and on land.

The agreement signed on Tuesday by Philippine defence undersecretary Raymund Elefante and Indian ambassador Shambu Kumaran lays the groundwork for Manila to procure the missile from New Delhi, and comes as the countries develop closer security ties.

If a contract is signed, the Philippines would be India’s first foreign client to acquire the missile system, and it would represent the first major defence equipment sale by New Delhi – which has itself grown closer to the United States – to Manila, one of Washington’s two security treaty allies in Southeast Asia.

Analysts said China would be watching these developments closely, with the Philippines mostly obtaining its arms from the US.

“Obviously the opponent here is China,” said Jose Antonio Custodio, a security and defence consultant who is a non-resident fellow of the think tank Stratbase ADR Institute. “We do need these missiles to strengthen our defence against China.”

In asserting its territorial rights to the South China Sea, the Philippines is both outclassed and outnumbered militarily by China. Last year President Rodrigo Duterte said it was better for the Philippines to pursue “diplomatic endeavours” with China over the South China Sea dispute because “China has the arms. We do not, so it’s simple as that.” In an October senate hearing, defence secretary Delfin Lorenzana admitted the Philippines was “not yet 25 per cent” of the way to achieving minimum credible defence capability.

Custodio said the “very lethal” BrahMos missiles were usually mounted on land-based mobile platforms, but the Philippines could also mount them on ships. “We have the modern ships to launch them, actually,” he said. “We have the platforms, like frigates from South Korea, and the Hamilton cutters from the US, but we don’t have the budget to configure the ships.”

The analyst added that the Philippines had been aiming to acquire cruise missiles for years. “This has long been planned, since during the [2010-2016 administration] of president Benigno Aquino III, when studies were being done by the navy. They were already talking about the BrahMos back then.”


Defence secretary Lorenzana in 2019 said the department would buy the BrahMos the following year, with plans to initially equip an army artillery unit, but the funds were instead diverted to the Philippines’ response to the Covid-19 pandemic.

New Delhi reportedly offered a financially strapped Manila a US$100 million soft loan to acquire the missiles in December, but President Rodrigo Duterte was reluctant to accept the offer.

When the agreement was signed on Tuesday, Lorenzana gave no details about how Manila would pay for the BrahMos missile. According to the Philippine security blog MaxDefense, “since funding could be an issue, the credit line being extended by India to the Philippine government might be used, and may even be expanded beyond the US$100 million credit peak”.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by SSridhar »

basant wrote:@DRDO_India successfully tests Solid Fuel Ducted Ramjet (SFDR) technology from a defence facility off #Odisha coast. All subsystems including the ground booster motor perform as expected. Many new technologies proven during the test.
This is phenomenal news.

Earlier two tests had successfully tested the nozzle-less booster and therefore this should be the sustainer part, the ducted soild-fuelled ramjet.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by SSridhar »

Prem Kumar wrote:Is SFDR going to be a "throttle'able" Ramjet, like the Meteor?
Yes, that's correct. There is a solid-fuel gas generator that produces fuel-rich gas, where a valve allows throttling.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Karan M »

Aditya_V wrote:So will SFDR even in aircraft carry a booster and how does Meteor operate, or should the launching aircraft be at a certain minimum speed to launch Ramjet missiles?

Edited Later: Meteor has a solid fuel booster which propels the missile to Mach 3 when the Ramjet kicks in , so presumably SFDR will also have booster but presumably will become smaller in when carried in aircraft.
There are two boosters in the picture, one visible and one part of the airframe itself. The former mimics the aircraft carriage (getting the missile to the correct alt, speed), and the second is the integrated nozzleless booster which is part of the missile and kicks in to accelerate the missile to its operating speed. As the DRDO press release notes (and SSridhar picked up), the ramjet was also tried out and functioned well (hence the PR mentions the same "During the test, many new technologies were proven, including Solid Fuel based Ducted Ramjet technology.

Successful demonstration of Solid Fuel based Ducted Ramjet technology has provided DRDO with a technological advantage which will enable it to develop long range air-to-air missiles. At present, such technology is available only with a handful of countries in the world. During the test, air launch scenario was simulated using a booster motor. Subsequently, the nozzle-less booster accelerated it to the required Mach number for Ramjet operation.
".
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by nam »

Would anyone know why don't we see Brahmos type intake in these missiles? Is it because solid fuel requires more air mass compared to what a Brahmos type intake provides?

Brahmos type intake would probably be more aero efficient, while carrying on the fighter or in flight.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Indranil »

John wrote:
fanne wrote:Booster was at least today to carry the missile to required altitude and speed (as if mimicking a fighter plane) and then let go as a plane will let go sfdr.
On plane do we need a booster? From ramjet to work is there a high initial velocity? Don’t know
Yes there still needs to be booster (smaller booster than the one used for land launch) as without it the plane would need to traveling past supersonic to release the missile (don’t quote me on it I am propulsion expert) which limits its usage.
No. The missile has an integral solid rocket booster (the part in the brown colour). It accelerates the missile to ramjet operation speed after launch from aircraft. After the rocket is burnt out, the cavity becomes the combustion chamber for the ramjet motor. Pretty much the same as Akash Mk1 or Meteor.

Image

Image
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by lakshmanM »

Image
Image
lots of confused folks out there (not necessarily in this thread of course), nicked it from a Facebook group, hope it helps
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Aditya_V »

From the looks of things, Meteor, SFDR are all specialized missiles which need to be launched at altitude with certain launch parameters, For eg.so a Rafale for a A2A missiles will carry a mix of MICA RF, MICA IR and some 2-4 Meteors. Similarly LCA, SU-30 et all with carry some CCM , other BVR plus 2/4/6 SFDR as applicable.

in A2G missions for self defense BVR will be by R-77/MICA-RF/Astra 1/2/ Derby etc. The SFDR/ Meteor are specialised missiles for certain profiles.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Pratyush »

The use of the SFDR with a booster should make a light weight high energy ground launched 100 knot range SAM possible.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Kanson »

Why the booster of SFDR is described as nozzle-less? Missile like Brahmos do have internal booster as that of SFDR. But we place much emphasis on referring the booster of SFDR and Meteor as nozzle-less. Does nozzle-less is so unique? Does it increase the effectiveness? Or anything of significance?
Why there is an emphasis on nozzle-less?
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