Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

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John
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by John »

kit wrote:
Prem Kumar wrote:"Many additional features" tested. Based on Dr. Avinash Chander's previous interview, I wouldn't be surprised if it included an MaRV with a seeker for a carrier-killer version
Indeed that single missile can hold the chinki navy at bay in the IOR.. some of the unique real-time sensors and "satnav" gives it impressive accuracy against moving targets..its not the actual rocket which is advanced by itself but the payload that carries some bleeding edge tech capability.
Let’s not get ahead of ourself with another DF-21 discussion there is no indication of such and it would require lot of extensive testing against moving targets before that is realized.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Yagnasri »

Aditya_V
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Aditya_V »

Yagnasri wrote:https://twitter.com/KesariDhwaj/status/ ... 14083?s=20

What does our Vatji mean?
Questions answered in responses

1) Production version has desi Ku band seeker

2) Motor was always inhouse
Prem Kumar
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Prem Kumar »

John: while there is no doubt that more testing is required before the realization of an AShBm role, its pretty clear that it *is* a role that's envisaged for Agni-Prime. Dr. Avinash Chander himself has hinted at it.

Moreover, there are ways to do a low-cost simulation of this role:

1) Feed target X coordinates at time of launch. Give mid-course guidance to redirect to target position Y (electronic target). Confirm via EO & other sensors whether the vehicle manuevered and impacted at the co-ordinates of Y

2) Feed target X @ launch. At some distance away from X, have a real stationary target Y (like the decrepit ship used to test Brahmos). Optionally feed target Y's co-ordinates. See if vehicle's seeker picks up Y and makes impact. This is a close enough simulation of the real thing because the vehicle has such a high Mach that the relative velocity differential of a few knots introduced by a moving (vs a stationary) target is hardly material. I.e. if it hits the stationary target, there is a high probability that it will hit the moving one

3) Full test involving a self-propelled or towed target Y. Not sure if we have autonomous targets like Banshee or Abhyas over water. This kind of test might not even be needed (wasn't needed for Brahmos). Would be nice to have though.

Test (1) is something that could be done as part of a regular Agni-Prime test and none would be wiser
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by John »

Prem Kumar wrote:John: while there is no doubt that more testing is required before the realization of an AShBm role, its pretty clear that it *is* a role that's envisaged for Agni-Prime. Dr. Avinash Chander himself has hinted at it.

Moreover, there are ways to do a low-cost simulation of this role:

1) Feed target X coordinates at time of launch. Give mid-course guidance to redirect to target position Y (electronic target). Confirm via EO & other sensors whether the vehicle manuevered and impacted at the co-ordinates of Y

2) Feed target X @ launch. At some distance away from X, have a real stationary target Y (like the decrepit ship used to test Brahmos). Optionally feed target Y's co-ordinates. See if vehicle's seeker picks up Y and makes impact. This is a close enough simulation of the real thing because the vehicle has such a high Mach that the relative velocity differential of a few knots introduced by a moving (vs a stationary) target is hardly material. I.e. if it hits the stationary target, there is a high probability that it will hit the moving one

3) Full test involving a self-propelled or towed target Y. Not sure if we have autonomous targets like Banshee or Abhyas over water. This kind of test might not even be needed (wasn't needed for Brahmos). Would be nice to have though.

Test (1) is something that could be done as part of a regular Agni-Prime test and none would be wiser
Few things

Seems like there is confusion over mid course target updates/re directs via SAT vs using a seeker to identify and target a target. Two completely different things, former is used for hitting land based targets as new target opportunity might present itself or prior target was eliminated. This is not for hitting moving ships. Where as radar/EO seeker is needed to hit a moving target.

You need to run multiple simulations on virtual/actual targets to verify the seeker and it is highly challenging when you are dealing with ballistic missile doing a reentry (not a liquid fueled maneuvering ramjet missile with plenty of propellant to move around). No way to simulate it away (you can use virtual targets but still) you need to fire the missile and test the seeker can pick up the target. We are looking at large no of tests before it can reach maturity. Even Brahmos took a large no of tests before production.

Yes Brahmos was tested against moving barges as well as virtual targets and Brahmos is based on Onyx which had gone thru years of similar testing before the joint venture as well.
Last edited by John on 19 Dec 2021 21:44, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by brar_w »

Testing a seeker equipped Ballistic Missile capable of attacking a moving target with defensive capability requires a lot of testing. The Chinese are still doing there testing as we speak and likely haven't had more than a handful of end to end tests even after they've been at it for years if not decades. To think that it can be done via simulation or in one or two tests is completely disregarding the enormous kill chain, and weapon related demonstrations and scenarios you need to validate through actual end to end testing before you have high confidence of a credible capability.

Another point that is very easily overlooked is that you can't build off of work done on other programs. The kill chain, types of communication, latency, seeker requirements etc are all different from a cruise missile so this needs a dedicated stream of development and testing and not just slapping a cruise missile seeker on a ballistic missile and reusing test data to validate performance.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by John »

Yea May be I am being pessimistic at this point we have multiple platforms that can be used as long range high speed Anti shipping missile (remember Sharuya) but it seems like we are being hesitant to take the next step and build one (May be political reason).
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Cain Marko »

John, Brar, and others, just thinking out aloud here, so pardon the newbie question.

Say, a p8 identifies a target ddg, 1000km away. Wouldn't it be possible to damage it using the following method... No need for seekers really.

1. We know that the ddg can move about 30kts radius in any direction from the coordinates supplied by p8.
2. We know that shaurya or A-prime can make that distance in 5-10 minutes.
3. In 10 minutes, the ddg can be no more than 10km from it's original position. Essentially, we have 10x10km area.
4. If the p8 can continue to track and provide updates during this time, the area becomes a lot smaller and the missile can be directed in pretty close.
4. In the terminal phase, can't this area be saturated with MIRVs carrying non nuclear area dispersing munitions?
5. You could launch 5-10 such missiles to really saturate the area and still cause huge damage to billion$ asset?
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by brar_w »

I assume here that the kill chain and concept of employment would entail finding, tracking and fixing something like an Aircraft Carrier from 2000+ km away and targeting it with a ballistic Missile. This is essentially what China is trying to do with the DF-21 and other even longer ranged maneuvering ballistic missiles. For that you need to no its location and heading and need to be able to track it in some sort of accurate way. The more accurate and precise track you have the better because it reduces errors and increases the probability that the seeker is able to find the target. Next you need to very quickly provide this into a weapon system and launch a ballistic missile. Then the ballistic missile needs to receive a mid-course update at precisely the right time as its warheads performs its pull up manuever to begin looking for a target within its seeker FOV. If it isn't there then game over. Next, the seeker must locate the target, get a positive ID, track it, and then manuever to strike it.

Everything from a survivable way to initially track, low-latency data link to launch platform, low latency mid-course update, seeker able to detect, and track in a ballistic profile and environment, and the maneuvering warhead itself need to be demonstrated individually and in an end to end fashion at range. Once that's done they probably need to test in operational scenarios with some sort of CMs present. Each one of these is very challenge. And collectively, no one yet has actually done (based on what we know) a credible end to end demonstration of this capability at this range. China is said to have (based on US reports) attempted this but those unclassified reports fall short of claiming that China was successful with such tests on its DF series. In short, this isn't a quick one to two test capability. This is going to take years and possibly dozen of tests that progressively expand what you are trying to demonstrate and validate. Also, I think some may be having an impression of all this happening at the speed-of-light or something very similar. In war however, transmitting tracks, mission planning, feeding data, de-confliction can be a lengthy process. In the Gulf War it took the USAF and US Army up to 2 hours to deconflict nad launch a 300 km ATACMS missile. When a JSTARS was present this was less than half but still tens of minutes and not tens of seconds. Here we are talking about ranges up to an order of magnitude (DF series of China) larger. Secondly, you have to assume some sort of kill-chain attack by an opponent or at least the ability to contest the kill chain which means you have to make your weapon system resilient or be able to perform in a degraded kill chain environment. Needless to say all this isn't easy to accomplish which is why no one has really credibly demonstrated this as of yet. It becomes slightly easier if you have a full up glide vehicle that basically spends 50% of the range cruising at say 50 km altitude but even that is a super hard, and highly specialized ( in terms of limits on repurposing components used in other kill chains or anti ship weapons) task requiring some pretty unique testing.

I don't think the saturating of an area this wide with MIRV's is the solution you are looking for. It is an incredibly expensive, not very precise, and not very credible way of defeating a large surface target and thus may not serve as a very credible deterrent (you need to the other side to actually fear such a capability for it to work).
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by srin »

Do seekers work during re-entry phase ? With the plasma surrounding the missile, I'm not sure that either RF or IR seeker or satcom would work, until it is well within the atmosphere
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by brar_w »

Seekers will be engaged in the terminal phase once the warhead is at a sufficiently slow speed, has pulled up, and you're at a slower speed. This is why you cannot rely on seekers alone. The very small amount of time at those altitudes for the engaged seeker to find a target and for the warhead to maneuver does not make this very practical unless at extremely short ranges with extremely short reaction times. For example, the Pershing II (which many Chinese researchers point to when discussing China's obsession with guided maneuvering ballistic missiles and the notable design similarities b/w it and the DF-15 and 21 families) engaged its radar at something between 15-20 km altitudes. Lets say that with seeker cooling technology and other types of seeker, you can extend this to higher altitudes it still gives very limited amount of time and very limited amount of area that can be scanned in that time (accounting for time for the vehicle to maneuver). So ideally, you want to launch with a rough idea of target location, bearing, re-enter, receive mid course update via data-link while in the upper atmosphere make course corrections, and then engage a terminal seeker that is now scanning within a much narrower possible area, acquire the target and make the final finer adjustments. This is still not easy. If you have something like a glider that can spend hundreds or thousands of kms cruising at 50-60 km altitudes then this makes it a lot easier but it is more challenging with a much faster MaRV that goes through the atmosphere much faster. In a way the Hypersonic glide vehicle solves that problem. It is much more difficult to develop and field, and is slower than a ballistic missile and MaRV but compared to either, it is far easier to adapt into a moving target strike capability given its ability to cruise at flatter trajectories and at those altitudes for more than half of its entire range.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by ldev »

brar_w wrote:If you have something like a glider that can spend hundreds or thousands of kms cruising at 50-60 km altitudes then this makes it a lot easier.....
Is the alarm/apprehension of the recent Chinese FOBS/Hypersonic test related to a Chinese attempt to have precisely such a glider?
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by brar_w »

ldev wrote:
brar_w wrote:If you have something like a glider that can spend hundreds or thousands of kms cruising at 50-60 km altitudes then this makes it a lot easier.....
Is the alarm/apprehension of the recent Chinese FOBS/Hypersonic test related to a Chinese attempt to have precisely such a glider?
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7844&p=2527621#p2527621
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Vips »

Explained: India’s missile capability.

At a seminar organised by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) last Tuesday, Defence Minister Rajnath Singh encouraged scientists to work towards developing hypersonic missile technology. China had demonstrated its hypersonic missile capability with successful tests of a hypersonic glide vehicle (HGV) which, according to reports, circled the globe but missed its target by just a few kilometres.

What is the history of missile technology in India?

Before Independence, several kingdoms in India were using rockets as part of their warfare technologies. Mysore ruler Hyder Ali started inducting iron-cased rockets in his army in the mid-18th century. By the time Hyder’s son Tipu Sultan died, a company of rocketeers was attached to each brigade of his army, which has been estimated at around 5,000 rocket-carrying troops.

At the time of Independence, India did not have any indigenous missile capabilities. The government created the Special Weapon Development Team in 1958. This was later expanded and called the Defence Research and Development Laboratory (DRDL), which moved from Delhi to Hyderabad by 1962.

“In 1972, Project Devil, for the development of a medium range Surface-to-Surface Missile was initiated. A large number of infrastructure and test facilities were established during this period.” DRDO’s official history of the lab states. “The development of components / systems for Project Devil formed the technology base for the future IGMDP Programme,” says DRDO. By 1982, DRDL was working on several missile technologies under the Integrated Guided Missiles Development Programme (IGMDP).

What kind of missiles does India have?


India is considered among the top few nations when it comes to designing and developing missiles indigenously, although it is way behind the US, China and Russia in terms of range.

DRDO chairman G Satheesh Reddy told The Indian Express that DRDO is “working on multiple varieties of missiles”. Among the surface-launched systems:

ANTI-TANK GUIDED MISSILE: Nag has already been inducted into the services. Reddy said Nag is the only “fire-and-forget ATGM meeting all weather requirements for its range (around 20 km)”. Recently Heli-Nag was tested, which will be operated from helicopters and will be inducted by 2022, said Reddy. There is also a Stand-off Anti-Tank (SANT) missile, with a range over 10 km. Tested from Indian Air Force (IAF) helicopters on December 11, it has a millimetre wave seeker, which enhances target detection in all weather conditions. Reddy said “man-portable ATGMs” are also available.

SURFACE-TO-AIR MISSILE: The short-range SAM system Akash has already been inducted in the Army and the Air Force. For Akash 1, which has a seeker, the Army has already got the Acceptance of Necessity from the government, Reddy said. For Akash (New Generation), the first tests were conducted in July this year; Reddy said a couple more trials are to be done.

Must Read |Defence ties in focus as Rajnath holds talks with French minister
Medium-Range SAM: Production of MRSAM systems for the Navy is complete, and it is placing its order, Reddy said. The Jaisalmer-based 2204 Squadron of the Air Force became the first unit to get the MRSAM systems in September this year. Technology for MRSAM for the Army “is also in a good shape and will be flight-tested soon”.

AIR-TO-AIR: Astra, India’s Beyond Visual Range Air-to-Air Missile (BVRAAM), has been completely tested and is under induction. It has a range of around 100 km, and DRDO is trying to now induct it with more IAF platforms, including the domestically developed light combat aircraft Tejas. A long-range Astra is also being developed, for which initial tests have been conducted. The missile uses solid fuel ramjet technology, which enhances speed, and will have an indigenously-built seeker.

AIR-TO-GROUND: Rudram, a New Generation Anti-Radiation Missile (NGRAM), has cleared initial tests and “some more tests will be conducted soon.” With a maximum range of around 200 km, the missile mainly targets communication, radar and surveillance systems of the adversary, and was tested from the Sukhoi-30MKI fighter jet last year. Reddy mentioned that BrahMos, which India developed jointly with Russia, is already operational. It has a 300 km to 500 km range, and is a short-range, ramjet-powered, single warhead, supersonic anti-ship or land attack cruise missile.

Reddy said a supersonic missile-assisted torpedo system was successfully launched from Wheeler Island last Monday. It “carried a torpedo and delivered it at a longer range” and will enhance Navy anti-submarine capability with a range of around 400 km, Reddy said.

Which of India’s missile systems are most important?


The two most important are Agni and Prithvi, both being used by the Strategic Forces Command.

Agni (range around 5,000 ) , is India’s only contender for an inter-continental ballistic missile (ICBM), which is available with only a few countries. Prithvi, although a short-range surface-to-surface missile with a 350 km range, has strategic uses. India also tested a anti-satellite system in April 2019. A modified anti-ballistic missile named Prithvi Defence Vehicle Mk 2 was used to hit a low-orbit satellite. It put India only behind the US, Russia and China in this capability.

What about hypersonic technology?

India has been working on this for a few years, and is just behind the US, Russia and China. DRDO successfully tested a Hypersonic Technology Demonstrated Vehicle (HSTDV) in September 2020, and demonstrated its hypersonic air-breathing scramjet technology.

According to sources, India has developed its own cryogenic engine and demonstrated it in a 23-second flight. India will try to make a hypersonic cruise missile, using HSTDV.

Sources said only Russia has proven its hypersonic missile capability so far, while China has demonstrated its HGV capacity. India is expected to be able to have a hypersonic weapons system within four years, with medium- to long-range capabilities.

What makes India good in missile technology?

Lt Gen V K (retired) Chaturvedi, who had headed the Army’s artillery’s modernisation programme, said missile technology is “one field in which India has made very, very positive and substantial progress”.

Under the IGMP then headed by A P J Abdul Kalam, later India’s President, first came Prithvi, then Agni. BrahMos, at 2.5-3 times the speed of sound, was among the fastest in the world when developed, Chaturvedi said. “After the nuclear blast in 1998, cryogenic etc were not given to us. Kalam and others, they made it a point that they developed it within the country.”

Chaturvedi said the US is leading in missile technology, and China is building up”. India is also “at a very advanced stage” among the top three or four nations .

With India’s missiles, Chaturvedi said “today our basic opponent, area of interest is northern border [China]. In the western border [Pakistan] we cover the whole area”.

With Agni V ready, he said, India is working on Agni VI and Agni VII, which should have a much longer range. He mentioned that Prithvi, which DRDO developed in consultation with the armed forces, “was originally with the Army, and went to the Strategic Forces” but is expected to be back to the Army later. Pinaka rocket systems have also been developed in close coordination with the user agencies, he said.

Where do China and Pakistan stand compared to India?

While China is ahead of India, Chaturvedi believes a “lot of things about China are psychological”.

According to a Pentagon report in 2020, China may have either achieved parity, or even exceeded the US in land-based conventional ballistic and cruise missile capabilities.

Chaturvedi said China’s missile development is “definitely a concern for us, but we will definitely evolve”. He said if China strikes a strategic target of India, “we will hit back with equal potential, and hit them at the place where it matters the most.”

Chaturvedi was more dismissive about Pakistan. China has given Pakistan the technology, “but getting a technology and really using it, and thereafter evolving and adopting a policy is totally different”.

He called hypersonic missiles “weapons of deterrence” but will not be used. He believes they “will continue to deter, but unlikely that China will ever use this. But if it does, India will not sit idle.”

On nuclear capability, Chaturvedi said although India does not call BrahMos nuclear, it can be used. India’s only nuclear missiles are Prithvi and Agni, but beyond those, tactical nuclear weapons can be fired from some IAF fighter jets or from Army guns, which have a low range, around 50 km.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Cain Marko »

brar_w wrote:I assume here that the kill chain and concept of employment would entail finding, tracking and fixing something like an Aircraft Carrier from 2000+ km away and targeting it with a ballistic Missile. This is essentially what China is trying to do with the DF-21 and other even longer ranged maneuvering ballistic missiles. For that you need to no its location and heading and need to be able to track it in some sort of accurate way. The more accurate and precise track you have the better because it reduces errors and increases the probability that the seeker is able to find the target. Next you need to very quickly provide this into a weapon system and launch a ballistic missile. Then the ballistic missile needs to receive a mid-course update at precisely the right time as its warheads performs its pull up manuever to begin looking for a target within its seeker FOV. If it isn't there then game over. Next, the seeker must locate the target, get a positive ID, track it, and then manuever to strike it.
I was thinking of a p8 tracking a ddg type target at distance of say, 300km, and providing regular coordinates to a shooter (stay landbased shaurya battery) some 1000km away.
I don't think the saturating of an area this wide with MIRV's is the solution you are looking for. It is an incredibly expensive, not very precise, and not very credible way of defeating a large surface target and thus may not serve as a very credible deterrent (you need to the other side to actually fear such a capability for it to work).
If you can get the precise coordinates isolated to a 1x1sqkm area with the help of the p8, why wouldn't MIRVs work? Even the loss of 10 such missiles would be a pittance compared to the loss of a destroyer?
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Barath »

https://mobile.twitter.com/DfIlite/stat ... 7947845633

Tweet with purported info of Rudram II details.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by nash »

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1473544750795870211

JUST IN: @DRDO_India
tests India's short range ballistic missile PRALAY from the Integrated Test Range on the east coast. The missile, sporting a 500 km range, was first tested in 2018.
Do we know about the bold part.This is going like K-15 first public announcement of test.
Last edited by nash on 22 Dec 2021 13:40, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Kakarat »

https://twitter.com/delhidefence/status ... 7356377093
Another Day, Another Missile Test by @DRDO_India


India successfully testfired the Pralay surface to surface ballistic missile with a range of 150 to 500 kms
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Prem Kumar »

Happy to see a Pra-series missile test after a long time! Interesting tweet by LiveFist - there is no previous mention of a Pralay test before today. Not sure what was so hush-hush about it, given that we are public with other tests like Agni-Prime.

Not sure where Pralay will fit: if its under Artillery, that's great. Hope it doesn't end up under SFC. Its a battlefield missile for deep strikes. Freedom must be given to the Army to use it as they seem fit (with come chain of command of course).
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by nash »

https://twitter.com/TheHemantRout/statu ... 0791748608

#FirstPhoto @DRDO_India
confirms first test of SRBM Pralay.

The mission meets all objectives as the new missile follows desired quasi ballistic trajectory & reaches the target with high degree accuracy, validating the control, guidance & mission algorithms.
@NewIndianXpress


Shaurya Lite :D
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Kakarat »

DRDO conducts maiden launch of indigenously developed new generation surface-to-surface missile ‘Pralay’ -PIB
Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) successfully conducted maiden flight test of indigenously developed surface-to-surface missile ‘Pralay’, from Dr A P J Abdul Kalam Island off the coast of Odisha on December 22, 2021. The mission has met all its objectives. The new missile followed the desired quasi ballistic trajectory and reached the designated target with high degree accuracy, validating the control, guidance and mission algorithms. All the sub-systems performed satisfactorily. All the sensors deployed near the impact point across the eastern coast, including the down range ships, tracked the missile trajectory and captured all the events.

The Missile is powered with solid propellant rocket motor and many new technologies. The missile has a range of 150-500 kilometre and can be launched from a mobile launcher. The missile guidance system includes state-of-the-art navigation system and integrated avionics.

Raksha Mantri Shri Rajnath Singh congratulated DRDO and associated teams for this maiden development flight trial. He complimented DRDO for the fast track development and successful launch of modern surface-to-surface missile.

Secretary Department of Defence R&D and Chairman DRDO, Dr G Satheesh Reddy appreciated the team and said that this is a new generation surface-to-surface missile equipped with modern technologies and induction of this weapon system will give the necessary impetus to the Armed Forces.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Kakarat »

Prem Kumar
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Prem Kumar »

8 tail-fins. Haven't seen that on any of our BMs before. For maneuvering I suppose.

Quasi ballistic means that they can do pure ballistic and get a higher range. Plus 500 Km range is for a 1 tonne payload

It seems designed to avoid early detection/interception, i.e. by S-400 batteries, while taking out high value targets
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Pratyush »

Prem, I think that Pralay, Pragati, Shoruya along with Brahmos ER and Nirbhay will all be under proposed tri service Missile Force.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Bart S »

Prem Kumar wrote:8 tail-fins. Haven't seen that on any of our BMs before. For maneuvering I suppose.

Quasi ballistic means that they can do pure ballistic and get a higher range. Plus 500 Km range is for a 1 tonne payload

It seems designed to avoid early detection/interception, i.e. by S-400 batteries, while taking out high value targets
What is quasi-ballistic trajectory exactly? Does it mean that it can do a depressed/flat trajectory similar to a cruise missile?
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by dinesha »

Bart S wrote:
What is quasi-ballistic trajectory exactly? Does it mean that it can do a depressed/flat trajectory similar to a cruise missile?
BM plus MaRV
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Jits »

Bart S wrote:
Prem Kumar wrote:8 tail-fins. Haven't seen that on any of our BMs before. For maneuvering I suppose.

Quasi ballistic means that they can do pure ballistic and get a higher range. Plus 500 Km range is for a 1 tonne payload

It seems designed to avoid early detection/interception, i.e. by S-400 batteries, while taking out high value targets
What is quasi-ballistic trajectory exactly? Does it mean that it can do a depressed/flat trajectory similar to a cruise missile?


Contains very good details of the missile:
350 km@1000 kg
500 km@500 kg

Diagram of quasi Ballistic trajectory at 5:10
Cost 4-5 crore vs 20-25 crore for Brahmos
Last edited by Jits on 22 Dec 2021 20:59, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by jamwal »

Bart S wrote:
Prem Kumar wrote:8 tail-fins. Haven't seen that on any of our BMs before. For maneuvering I suppose.

Quasi ballistic means that they can do pure ballistic and get a higher range. Plus 500 Km range is for a 1 tonne payload

It seems designed to avoid early detection/interception, i.e. by S-400 batteries, while taking out high value targets
What is quasi-ballistic trajectory exactly? Does it mean that it can do a depressed/flat trajectory similar to a cruise missile?
It seems to turn nearly horizontal few seconds after launch. Not exactly like Brahmos, but unlike regular BMs too.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by brar_w »

Bart S wrote:
Prem Kumar wrote:8 tail-fins. Haven't seen that on any of our BMs before. For maneuvering I suppose.

Quasi ballistic means that they can do pure ballistic and get a higher range. Plus 500 Km range is for a 1 tonne payload

It seems designed to avoid early detection/interception, i.e. by S-400 batteries, while taking out high value targets
What is quasi-ballistic trajectory exactly? Does it mean that it can do a depressed/flat trajectory similar to a cruise missile?
It is just a fancy way of saying that the missile is maneuverable and thus not reliant solely on a ballistic profile. See this video of ATACMS below (also a short range quasi ballistic missile form the cold war) for what the difference is. This isn't much different (in principle) from a very large SAM being able to strike targets (similar principal and a aero surfaces to assist in maneuvering) on the ground (just that it is a dedicate surface to surface weapon with a larger payload and submunitions). Short ranged missiles like the ATACMS, Iskander, Lora etc can all be broadly classified in this category (with other variations in attributes of course). Russian literature tends to call these "Quasi ballistic missiles", whereas western users call them "maneuverable ballistic missiles".


dinesha wrote:
BM plus MaRV
Not a MaRV but a maneuverable missile because in this case you don't have a separating RV that re-enters and executes independent maneuvers. At the ranges mentioned here, you are likely not even leaving the atmosphere.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by ramana »

Prem Kumar wrote:8 tail-fins. Haven't seen that on any of our BMs before. For maneuvering I suppose.

Quasi ballistic means that they can do pure ballistic and get a higher range. Plus 500 Km range is for a 1 tonne payload

It seems designed to avoid early detection/interception, i.e. by S-400 batteries, while taking out high value targets
The aft fins look fixed for the center of pressure like an arrow.
The forward fins are the guidance fins.
As its solid fuel the fins allows energy-wasting trajectories for minimum range.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by John »

Jits wrote:Contains very good details of the missile:
350 km@1000 kg
500 km@500 kg

Diagram of quasi Ballistic trajectory at 5:10
Cost 4-5 crore vs 20-25 crore for Brahmos
Take the range and cost information (he took it from some tweet that estimate cost which was wrong even for Brahmos) with grain of salt no source confirming any of that. Even Prithvi inducted decade ago cost 3 crores now if I were to guess Pralay could cost over 20 crores.
Even Brahmos extended range is expected to cost around 60 crores each.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Barath »

Prem Kumar wrote:8 tail-fins. Haven't seen that on any of our BMs before. For maneuvering I suppose.
Does this apply ?
https://twitter.com/GODOFPARADOXES/stat ... dHdNA&s=19
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by nash »

https://twitter.com/ANI/status/1473893780965105665
Today India successfully testfired the Pralay conventional quasi ballistic missile which can hit targets between 150 to 500 kms. The test was conducted for a different range and different configuration* and met all the parameters: Government officials


This is the second successful test of the missile in the last 24 hours as yesterday also it was tested successfully. It is also the first time in the country that a developmental missile has been tested successfully on two consecutive days: Government officials

Second test in row, seems like we are in hurry.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Pratyush »

Nothing focuses more than a stupid brute of an enemy.

Just because he is stupid, dosent mean that he can't harm us.


Dream alert

Ever since the post pulvama air strikes I have had this dream.

Indian armed forces have launched 100s of Shoruya and Nirbhay missiles as an opening salvo in a war of punishment against the enemy.

Each launcher is a 12*12 and carries 4 missiles quad packed :mrgreen:
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Prem Kumar »

Happy to see the urgency. Sad that this comes only because China has been at the door for 1.5 years (more if you count Doklam).

Pralay has been ready since 2018. Shaurya, for more than a decade. Our planners wake up now.

There was a HT report that said that Shaurya induction under SFC was authorized in Oct 2020. I just hope inductions are happening but us not knowing is because the GOI wants to keep it that way. One can be optimistic.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Kakarat »

DRDO successfully conducts second flight-test of indigenously developed conventional Surface-to-Surface missile ‘Pralay’- PIB
Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) successfully conducted second flight-test of indigenously developed conventional Surface-to-Surface missile ‘Pralay’ from Dr APJ Abdul Kalam Island off the coast of Odisha on December 23, 2021. For the first time, two consecutive flight tests of a ballistic missile have been conducted successfully on two consecutive days. The flight test met all the mission objectives. This launch proves the system in both the configurations of the missile.

In today’s launch, the ‘Pralay’ missile was tested for heavier payload and different range to prove the precision and lethality of the weapon. This launch was monitored by all the range sensors and instruments, including Telemetry, Radar and Electro-Optic Tracking System deployed across the eastern coast and the down range ships positioned near the impact point.

Raksha Mantri Shri Rajnath Singh has congratulated DRDO and associated teams for this consecutive successful development flight trial. Secretary Department of Defence R&D and Chairman DRDO Dr G Satheesh Reddy appreciated the associated team and said, with this successful flight test, the country has proved strong design and development capabilities in defence R&D.
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Prem Kumar
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Prem Kumar »

Back to back dev trials shows the confidence/maturity of DRDO's missile program. They know this will work right off the bat. 1 or 2 user trials next week and induction can start, if there is urgency.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by konaseema »

Many congratulations to our DRDO scientists!!! At this pace, most of our current projects should be delivered by 2025.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by John »

Prem Kumar wrote:Happy to see the urgency. Sad that this comes only because China has been at the door for 1.5 years (more if you count Doklam).

Pralay has been ready since 2018. Shaurya, for more than a decade. Our planners wake up now.

There was a HT report that said that Shaurya induction under SFC was authorized in Oct 2020. I just hope inductions are happening but us not knowing is because the GOI wants to keep it that way. One can be optimistic.
I don’t believe Parlay tests were held up since 2018 due to politics it seems like it was delayed due to development reasons.
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