Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

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SSridhar
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by SSridhar »

Kanson wrote:Why there is an emphasis on nozzle-less?
Nozzle is required for two reasons. In a solid-fuelled motor, the back pressure created by the throat of the nozzle makes the solid grain burn more uniformly. Secondly, diverging nozzle prevents turbulence that may cuase stability issues.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by nam »

And once the booster has burnt up, it will create the space for Ramjet exhaust? In other Ramjet, like air launched Brahmos, the booster falls off.

Come to think of it, we could have used the same method as air launched brahmos. Create a small booster, which can then drop off. The whole thing could have been less complicated.

But I guess the current setup is more compact and very TFTA. Would be useful when we built hypersonic BVR with scramjet + ducted ramjet + nozzless booster.

If DRDO could plug in a small booster for air launched SFDR and fill up the space saved with more Ramjet sustainer fuel.. you could potentially double the range...

Something like this:

Image
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by nam »

With the advent of SFDR, we can fire off ramjet BVR at will, instead of saving silver bullets like Metoer. BVRs are generally lofted to gain maximum range in the powered phase.

It would be interesting to see the effect of having a always powered BVR being lofted. Fly very high and then drop using gravity? switch off while dropping and reignite if it requires to chase the target? Or just fire in flat trajectory?

Ramjet BVR will solve the LoC tail chase problem, which PAF employed on Feb 27. Our ramjets will chase them to 100-150KM, even if they turn back tail.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by brar_w »

You can't "switch off and reignite" with a solid fueled ducted rocket. You ignite the pyrolant after the integrated rocket has burnt out and you have an empty chamber (the grain used is to accelerate the missile system to ramjet takeover speeds). If it is a throttleable ducted rocket capability then it will have the ability to modulate thrust (using the variable flow valve, hence this type of ducted rocket is often known as a VFDR) within a band (not as wide as with liquid ramjets) but not something that is extinguishable (you are still bound by physics, inlets, blowouts, chamber pressures etc). It is a useful capability when you want to prolong the coast phase of flight (i.e. longer range) or coast at a higher speed, so that your opponent can't easily outrun you during that phase, and has to do more to out maneuver you at the end game because you have a higher terminal speed and thus performance margins. In a sense you are trying to capture parts of both worlds (hence sometimes referred to as an intermediate b/w solid RM, and liquid ramjet), i.e. with SF VF ducted rockets, you are getting a wooden round that is much easier to design, maintain and relative to its LF counterpart, much lighter, but still captures some of that throttleability. So while a VFDR approach adds weight and complexity over a similarly sized pure SRM, the penalty is not as severe as would have been with a LF solution that adds more weight, complexity though it is able to get higher performance in some areas (relative to pure SRM's, and VFDR's).
Last edited by brar_w on 07 Mar 2021 07:04, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by kit »

Wonder to what extent the S400 would be compromised in the hands of Turks and China in the regional context between India and the Pakis ?
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Prem »

kit wrote:Wonder to what extent the S400 would be compromised in the hands of Turks and China in the regional context between India and the Pakis ?
Last year, There was rumor of Indian s-400 having so many India specific ingredients that beside few similarities in missiles it don't resemble much with regular s-400 system.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by John »

Prem wrote:
kit wrote:Wonder to what extent the S400 would be compromised in the hands of Turks and China in the regional context between India and the Pakis ?
Last year, There was rumor of Indian s-400 having so many India specific ingredients that beside few similarities in missiles it don't resemble much with regular s-400 system.
It is marketing bs there is some changes in terms of configuration of system but more or less it is same system and we also over paid compared to Turkey and China paid for it as well.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by AkshaySG »

Prem wrote:
kit wrote:Wonder to what extent the S400 would be compromised in the hands of Turks and China in the regional context between India and the Pakis ?
Last year, There was rumor of Indian s-400 having so many India specific ingredients that beside few similarities in missiles it don't resemble much with regular s-400 system.
I doubt there's major changes possible for a missile defense platform such as S400, Maybe minor changes in radar characteristics or fine tuning but certainly nothing huge.

No chance of S400-MKI I'm afraid.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Prem Kumar »

^^ And no need either. We will need S-400 as a stop-gap arrangement only until our XRSAM matures
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/VinodDX9/status/136 ... 94976?s=20 ---> SAMAR - Surface to Air Missile for Assured Retaliation.

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 58403?s=20 ---> Makes sense as India acquired over 4,800 R-73s since the mid 80s and many of them have significant amounts of captive flight hours left especially with talks of them being replaced by ASRAAM & NG-CCM in air to air role.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/MajorsSquad/status/ ... 54723?s=20 ---> We (@Manik_M_Jolly and @elmihiro) discuss the Beyond Visual Range (BVR) Missiles, Air battle and Meteor Missile on our new detailed YouTube video. Artwork by @Kuntal__biswas. Enjoy :)

Discussion on Beyond Visual Range (BVR) Missiles, Air battle and Meteor Missile

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by srai »

^^^
BVR 101 !

Should be part of newbie thread.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Cyrano »

Nice discussion Rakesh !
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/delhidefence/status ... 62019?s=20 ---> Kalyani Rafael Advanced Systems (KRAS) - a joint venture between Kalyani Group and Rafael Advanced Defense Systems - rolls out first batch of MRSAM Missile Kits for Indian Army and Air Force. KRAS will deliver more than 1,000 MRSAM ‘missile kits’ for the services.

https://twitter.com/delhidefence/status ... 79783?s=20 ---> These missile sections will then be ‘forwarded’ to India’s Bharat Dynamics Limited (BDL) for further and future integration.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Rakesh »

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/delhidefence/status ... 62019?s=20 ---> Kalyani Rafael Advanced Systems (KRAS) - a joint venture between Kalyani Group and Rafael Advanced Defense Systems - rolls out first batch of MRSAM Missile Kits for Indian Army and Air Force. KRAS will deliver more than 1,000 MRSAM ‘missile kits’ for the services.
https://twitter.com/Aryan_warlord/statu ... 44608?s=20 ---> 1,000 MRSAMs should be enough to equip 10 regiments with 12 launchers each spread across 3 batteries of 4 launchers per regiment. That said likely to be half that number of regiments with one reload for each launcher.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by vimal »

How is this different from Akash missile?
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by nachiket »

vimal wrote:How is this different from Akash missile?
Dual-pulse rocket motor instead of the Ramjet on the Akash Mk1 and 1S. Much higher max engagement range of ~80km compared to 30km for the Akash Mk1 and 1S. The Akash NG also has a dual-pulse motor and when it is ready will be comparable to MRSAM I think. The MRSAM missile also has an on-board seeker which the Akash Mk1 lacks, but the 1S has already taken care of that part.

The guidance radars are also different. The Akash uses the Rajendra radar (which is a PESA I believe) for missile guidance and the 3D-CAR for long range surveillance and acquisition. MRSAM uses a single multi-function radar which performs both target acquisition/tracking and fire control. The Naval version of this seen on our destroyers is the MF-STAR. If anyone has a clear photo of the land based version of this radar I'd like to see it.

This one shows a tiny image but I don't know if it is accurate:

Image
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Rakesh »

KRAS rolls out first batch of medium-range surface-to-air missile kits for Indian Army, Air Force
https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/ne ... 083113.ece
16 March 2021
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Vips »

First tri-service missile gets underway with roll-out of MRSAM components.

The Indian military’s first tri-service missile, which will protect naval warships, air force bases and army combat units from airborne attacks took a step towards full-scale production on Tuesday with the roll-out of its first components.

The eponymous Medium Range Surface to Air Missile (MRSAM) has been developed for the army, navy and air force by the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO), in close partnership with Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI).

The delivery on Tuesday was of the first batch of MRSAM components being manufactured in Hyderabad by an Indian joint venture (JV) called Kalyani Rafael Advanced Systems (KRAS).

On July 11, 2019, KRAS was awarded a $100 million contract to build the mid-sections of 1,000 missiles.

These will be integrated with MRSAM components built elsewhere into combat-ready missile systems by defence public sector undertaking, Bharat Dynamics Ltd (BDL).

Kalyani Strategic Systems Ltd holds 51 per cent of the JV, with Rafael Advanced Systems holding 49 per cent.

The MRSAM is amongst the most lethal surface-to-air missiles (SAMs) in service anywhere. Fired from under-deck canisters on-board Indian warships, it is guided by the on-board MF-STAR radar to intercept incoming anti-ship missiles at ranges out to 70 km — a feat akin to hitting a bullet with a bullet. The ship-borne version of the missile is called the Long Range Surface to Air Missile (LRSAM).

The army and air force versions, called the MRSAM, are mounted on trucks for mobility. They primarily guard against enemy fighter aircraft, striking them 70 km from where the missile battery is deployed.

So high is the military’s confidence in the MRSAM that in September 2016, when the army was planning to strike Pakistan-backed terrorist camps across the Line of Control to avenge the killing of 19 Indian soldiers near Uri, the MRSAM — then still under development — was moved from BDL to protect a vulnerable air force base.

When Indian commandos crossed on LoC on the night of September 28, 2016, the MRSAM was ready for operational use.
As it turned out, the missiles were not required.

KRAS will deliver more than 1,000 MRSAM production kits over the next 3-4 years. In case of export orders, the numbers could increase.

“We are confident KRAS will not only build products for the Indian armed forces but will, at the same time, trigger and help achieve Indian government’s vision of exports from India,” said Brigadier General Pinhas Yungman of Rafael Advanced Defense System.

“Apart from the missile kits, we will extend our support in maintenance and repair operations,” said Kalyani Group chief, Baba Kalyani.KRAS plans to ramp up its employee strength to 300 technical experts by 2023.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Ashokk »

India to soon deploy long-range missile tracking specialised ship
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NEW DELHI: India will soon be able to deploy a specialized oceanic surveillance ship capable of tracking nuclear-tipped ballistic missiles at long ranges as well as undertaking critical hydrographic surveys in the Indian Ocean Region.
The indigenously-built 15,000-tonne missile range instrumentation ship, which will be commissioned as INS Dhruv within the next few months, is equipped with a wide array of long-range radars and other sensors to act as an early-warning system for hostile ballistic missiles.
Once such incoming missiles are detected by the radars on board the ship, the land-based ballistic missile defence (BMD) systems can conceivably take over to track and shoot them down.
The two-tier BMD system being developed by DRDO has AAD (advanced air defence) and PAD (Prithvi air defence) interceptor missiles to intercept enemy missiles in the 2,000-km class.
The 175-meter-long oceanic surveillance vessel, codenamed `VC 11184’ as part of a classified project, has been under-construction at the Hindustan Shipyard Ltd at Vizag since 2013-2014, as was earlier reported by TOI.
Once the advanced ship is commissioned later this year, India will join a handful of countries, like the US, Russia, China and France, with the capability to monitor missile launches from long distances away.
To be manned by personnel from the National Technical Research Organisation as well as the Navy and DRDO, the ship has been undergoing a series of tests for the last couple of years. The ship will also be used to monitor the telemetry data of strategic missiles launched by India during trials.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Aditya_V »

Vips wrote:First tri-service missile gets underway with roll-out of MRSAM components.


So high is the military’s confidence in the MRSAM that in September 2016, when the army was planning to strike Pakistan-backed terrorist camps across the Line of Control to avenge the killing of 19 Indian soldiers near Uri, the MRSAM — then still under development — was moved from BDL to protect a vulnerable air force base.

“Apart from the missile kits, we will extend our support in maintenance and repair operations,” said Kalyani Group chief, Baba Kalyani.KRAS plans to ramp up its employee strength to 300 technical experts by 2023.


This is called Marketing, Pinaka was also fired during Kargil - was that a sign of confidence that we ordered only 2 Regiments till 2016.

Or another way to put with limited Akash Squadrons an old Sa-3's with Spyder not yet fully deployed at that time, IAF took a risk.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by basant »

^^^
Sadly, what we have confidence in, need not translate to purchases. A tank that breaks down with alarming regularity, even worse than Chinese Type-96B and T-72s, is ordered in unbelievable numbers.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Prem Kumar »

Karan M: if you recall, we had a brief discussion about whether MRSAM had been inducted into the IAF. I read a report quite recently that it had not yet been. And the above article also corroborates it.

Seems like the IAF saw performance issues with the MRSAM. Yehudis didn't exactly cover themselves with glory on this project. Overpriced, under-performing & late.

Am glad that we have Akash-NG and other missiles maturing. We can get rid of our dependency on foreign systems.

P.S. The blurb about "moving MRSAM unit from BDL to a forward airbase" seems like bakwas to me
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by mody »

The reports at the time said that IAF was not very happy with the performance of the MRSAM when deployed in Kashmir and it probably needed a little more work. Possibly it was the mountainous terrain which was found to be hampering the performance.

Should be sorted by now though. A question would be what will the joint venture company do, once the order for the MRSAMs are over? The next lot after the proposed 9 squadrons will in all probability be the Akash-NG. In fact Akash-NG might get ready before the entire order for the MRSAM gets executed. After that what would these joint venture companies do? Keep peddling more Israeli goods for screwdrivergiri?
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by nachiket »

Prem Kumar wrote: P.S. The blurb about "moving MRSAM unit from BDL to a forward airbase" seems like bakwas to me
The report is by Shook-law. So we have to take everything with a bucketful of salt anyway.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by kit »

Does it have an ASAT capability against LEO satellite s
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by John »

kit wrote:
Does it have an ASAT capability against LEO satellite s
It is primarily meant to intercept targets at max altitude of around 20km altitude, so no it definitely cannot intercept those targets. It only has limited ABM capability, Barak-8 ER is supposed to improve on that.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Aditya_V »

John it was sarcasm by Kit.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by ramana »

Ashokk wrote:India to soon deploy long-range missile tracking specialised ship
Image
NEW DELHI: India will soon be able to deploy a specialized oceanic surveillance ship capable of tracking nuclear-tipped ballistic missiles at long ranges as well as undertaking critical hydrographic surveys in the Indian Ocean Region.

I wish they don't write tripe like that. No one tests nukes like that.
Really dumb report.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by kit »

Aditya_V wrote:John it was sarcasm by Kit.
:mrgreen: That was the only capability left out .
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by mody »

The army orders another batch of Milan-2T. With the Man portable NAG and the man portable 3rd Gen missile from BDL so near to completion, would have preferred those over the Milan-2T. Maybe the price is lower.

https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/other/ma ... d=msedgntp
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Aditya_V »

mody wrote:The army orders another batch of Milan-2T. With the Man portable NAG and the man portable 3rd Gen missile from BDL so near to completion, would have preferred those over the Milan-2T. Maybe the price is lower.

https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/other/ma ... d=msedgntp
And probably the Army needs to always have a huge stock of these especially when older ones reach the end of life, they are very important to the infantry.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 18720?s=20 --->

Report: There may be two separate air to air missiles derived from Indian SFDR project:

1) Long range tactical BVRAAM (Desi Meteor)

2) Ultra long-range Anti-AWACS/AAR BVRAAM (counter to PL-21) to be equipped to upgraded Su-30MKIs.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by kit »

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 18720?s=20 --->

2) Ultra long-range Anti-AWACS/AAR BVRAAM (counter to PL-21) to be equipped to upgraded Su-30MKIs.
whats the name of the second missile ? Is there any info in the open source
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by nachiket »

Where do people like that Wolfpack guy get their information from? I have never seen him post any links to any news report. I don't know how you would differentiate between fact, rumor and mere wishful thinking with accounts like these.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Ankit Desai »

nachiket wrote:Where do people like that Wolfpack guy get their information from? I have never seen him post any links to any new report. I don't know how you would differentiate between fact, rumor and mere wishful thinking with accounts like these.
I agree with you nachiket, at time it is frustrating to me, but somehow the guy WolfpackIN's news sounds genuine. The news he comes up with, will turn out next day or after few hours in some main stream news paper. At least that is what my observation is and he is not baba or drapr007 or etc.

I am still trying to hold him accountable for unauthenticated news but try remains as try. It would be nice if the guy update his name/title with human sounding name.

-Ankit
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by basant »

^^^
I concur with Ankit and my opinion also is same. Seems to be better than a news aggregator, with an occasional lead time. Followed by many respectable people, including IAF vets (like HVT and Nambiar!).
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Karan M »

Prem Kumar wrote:Karan M: if you recall, we had a brief discussion about whether MRSAM had been inducted into the IAF. I read a report quite recently that it had not yet been. And the above article also corroborates it.

Seems like the IAF saw performance issues with the MRSAM. Yehudis didn't exactly cover themselves with glory on this project. Overpriced, under-performing & late.

Am glad that we have Akash-NG and other missiles maturing. We can get rid of our dependency on foreign systems.

P.S. The blurb about "moving MRSAM unit from BDL to a forward airbase" seems like bakwas to me
These BDL items are production units. One can always move a test unit and battery to a forward base during conflict times. We have deployed a lot of gear in similar conditions. The Litenings which were used in 1999 were initial units and had a lot of bugs which were worked on during the conflict itself. In terms of desi gear, 3D CAR, Pinaka and several other items were deployed likewise.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Karan M »

nachiket wrote:Where do people like that Wolfpack guy get their information from? I have never seen him post any links to any news report. I don't know how you would differentiate between fact, rumor and mere wishful thinking with accounts like these.
Most of his reports are from open sources which he doesn't link to, perhaps because it would detract from the "scoop" aspect. He is one of the more reliable OSINT type guys.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by John »

mody wrote:The reports at the time said that IAF was not very happy with the performance of the MRSAM when deployed in Kashmir and it probably needed a little more work. Possibly it was the mountainous terrain which was found to be hampering the performance.

Should be sorted by now though. A question would be what will the joint venture company do, once the order for the MRSAMs are over? The next lot after the proposed 9 squadrons will in all probability be the Akash-NG. In fact Akash-NG might get ready before the entire order for the MRSAM gets executed. After that what would these joint venture companies do? Keep peddling more Israeli goods for screwdrivergiri?
Akash NG is primarily to fill the gap between Akash and Barak-8. In all likely XR-SAM will be based on our own version of Barak-8 ER and will allow coverage upto 200km. This will address the gap between Barak-8 and S-400.

As for Barak-8 performance little OT atleast it seems to outperformed upg S-300P operated by Armenia in Az-Arm conflict which turned out to be a Dud (fingers crossed on S-400). Azerbaijan’s Barak-8 SR variant downed a couple Ballistic missiles (Armenian PM claim its isklander but Russians claim its Scud) and their presence forced Armenia to ground all its planes.
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