Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 30 Sep 2020 12:42

Now even brahmos ER test is ignored, gone are the days 20 years ago when a Prithvi test once in few months was a celeberated event.

Ashokk · Post by **Ashokk** » 30 Sep 2020 12:48

Hemant Kumar Rout
@TheHemantRout
·
1h

#BigBreaking: #India successfully flight tests extended range supersonic cruise missile #BrahMos with indigenous booster from a test facility off #Odisha coast. An Indo- Russian joint venture the #missile has a strike range of 450 km. #CruiseMissile @XpressOdisha
@NewIndianXpress

pushkar.bhat · Post by **pushkar.bhat** » 30 Sep 2020 13:17

ramana wrote:
pushkar.bhat wrote:It takes a Chinese threat to get our forces to accept indigenous weapon platforms. First they choose to push back but once they realized that they need to fight with what they have they want SAAW, Nirbhay, ATAGS just to name a few. I hope the wisdom persists.

If you think about it it takes some time to make Nirbhay in quantity and definitely more than a few months.
So while its easy to make the underlined remarks, its erroneous as timeline does not support it.
Nirbhay Army version trials were completed and hence produced.
The other two services trials are not complete.

@Ramana Sir, my specific point for Nirbhay was because I had heard that the project had been closed as a Technology Demonstrator and the focus has shifted to the next gen Cruise Missile Project. On the rest I agree with you. Overall I am happy to see that we are taking even the platforms underdevelopment and putting them in the Ladakh theater. Just means that many a times we have a minimally viable product.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 30 Sep 2020 13:54

Ashokk wrote:Hemant Kumar Rout
@TheHemantRout

Of course, that 450 Km range figure depends upon the trajectory used, Hi-lo-hi etc.

Two things need to be remembered. In the 2016 meeting between Modi & Putin it was agreed to extend the range to 600 Kms. In early 2017, the reports spoke of extending further to 800 Kms and a test within end of 2018.

VikramS · Post by **VikramS** » 30 Sep 2020 14:27

When it comes to unmanned equipment (eg: cruise missiles) the risk/cost of an imperfect product is low.

If the weapon hits its target within the CEP it is clearly a positive. If it does not you at least learn how it worked and where it failed; you can think of the use of these as testing in a production environment.

However the mere presence of these missiles, forces the opposing commanders to plan for them. In case it hits the fan, the enemy has more to target and defend itself from.

The assumption of course is that the basic functions are validated!

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 30 Sep 2020 14:29

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1311218081058811904

FIRST ON LIVEFIST: Photos of today's BrahMos extended range (400 km) test on India's east coast.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 30 Sep 2020 14:32

Ashokk wrote:Hemant Kumar Rout
@TheHemantRout
·
1h
#BigBreaking: #India successfully flight tests extended range supersonic cruise missile #BrahMos with indigenous booster from a test facility off #Odisha coast. An Indo- Russian joint venture the #missile has a strike range of 450 km. #CruiseMissile @XpressOdisha
@NewIndianXpress

Didn't realize that the 450Km range Brahmos-ER needed a new booster. (Or) was the booster Russian originally and we have indigenized it?

We had done 450KM tests 2 - 3 years ago at least. Hope this test is from a Production lot and not *development* tests

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 30 Sep 2020 18:06

This black and white pattern is used for experimental launches, not production batches.
A news report in 2019 mentioned that Russia would develop a 800 km ranged Oniks. So this Brahmos can't be 800 km atleast. Started from 290, then 400, now claims of 500-600. I have no idea what to make of it.
BTW, can booster extend it's range in anyway?

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 30 Sep 2020 20:03

"New" booster is indigenous. Boosters typically dont increase range. Their job is to take the ramjet to a speed where it starts working. But their is the probability of a new propellant giving performance improvement. BrahMos from inception had range higher than 290 km that was limited by control software to fulfill MTCR compliance

As you can see the booster is built into the combustion chamber. Once the booster fuel is expended, sustainer fuel from tanks surrounding the combustion chamber is pumped into the combustion chamber for the ramjet to operate.

mody · Post by **mody** » 30 Sep 2020 20:06

Notam has been issued for a test of missile for 715 Kms, 25 Kms and 320 Kms.
Speculation is the tests could be for the new Agni-1P, QRSAM 1st user trial and for Pralay missile.

Let's wait for the official news and hope for lungy dance moments

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 30 Sep 2020 21:05

Back in 2017:

Dr Sudhir Mishra, CEO and MD of BrahMos, said: “With the successful test-firing of extended range missile, BrahMos-ER, the Indian armed forces will be empowered to knock down enemy targets far beyond 400 kms.” The test was done from the Abdul Kalam island off Odisha coast around 11 am.

The missile range was extended from 290 km to 450 km following India's joining of the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR) in June 2016. The MTCR is an informal and voluntary partnership of countries to prevent proliferation of missile and unmanned aerial vehicle technology capable of carrying over 500 kg payload for more than 300 km.

So this test with booster for range of 450km sounds a little, err less
The same person in 2019 said that a 500km variant was ready at the time.My guess is 800km has just been tested as was planned.I wonder if this is a strap on type booster and can be pnp with existing inventory?

First nirbhay deployment and now this... Clear signal to china that chengdu and hotan are in sights.

John · Post by **John** » 30 Sep 2020 21:08

jamwal wrote:This black and white pattern is used for experimental launches, not production batches.
A news report in 2019 mentioned that Russia would develop a 800 km ranged Oniks. So this Brahmos can't be 800 km atleast. Started from 290, then 400, now claims of 500-600. I have no idea what to make of it.
BTW, can booster extend it's range in anyway?

Take Oniks article of 800 km range with a grain of salt

arvin · Post by **arvin** » 30 Sep 2020 21:48

ramana wrote:
arvin wrote:
Towards the end, the person says it missed by a mile.
The IAF has a IR target for testing IR seeker missiles.

ulka?

Banshee should be sufficient for testing IR seeker missile. No idea about ulka. Going by wiki it appears to be target for RF missile.
Manpads crew generally train for incoming\exiting helicopter or aircraft. What was fired first in the video looks like a rocket.
Homing in on a rocket exhaust does not look a realistic training scenario specially this one with fast acceleration.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 30 Sep 2020 22:55

In March 2017, the CEO of BrahMos indicated that the range of BrahMos would soon be extended from 290 Kms to 1000 Kms (by c. 2019).

DRDO Chief, Dr.S.Christopher said that in the immediate aftermath of India getting into MTCR, the range of BrahMos would extend from 290Kms to 450.
BrahMos-ER (Extended Range) was successfully test-fired on Mar 11, 2017.

Sudhir Mishra, MD & CEO of BrahMos Aerospace said, “The extended range BrahMos hit the target with centimetric accuracy. It’s a big leg up for us and it was a fantastic test flight. With this new version, all three forces, Army, Navy and IAF will have the capability to strike deep into the enemy’s territory.”

In April, 2019, Alexander Maksichev, the managing co-director of the BrahMos Aerospace company said, “We will come to hypersound via an increase in range. We have already confirmed 400 kilometers, in order to increase the range to 500, it is needed to increase the speed. Now the missile flies at speeds of 2.8 mach. We will achieve the speed of hypersound through modernization, it is more than 4.5 mach”

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 30 Sep 2020 23:04

mody wrote:Notam has been issued for a test of missile for 715 Kms, 25 Kms and 320 Kms.
Speculation is the tests could be for the new Agni-1P, QRSAM 1st user trial and for Pralay missile.

Let's wait for the official news and hope for lungy dance moments

There is another missile whose official {ref:wiki} range is 700-750 km.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 30 Sep 2020 23:53

Shaurya will be a nice addition. I like how it has basic launch steps same as Brahmos.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 01 Oct 2020 02:53

Prem Kumar wrote:
Didn't realize that the 450Km range Brahmos-ER needed a new booster. (Or) was the booster Russian originally and we have indigenized it?

It was mentioned by Brahmos CEO that to reduce import content, we indigenized booster. It was way back.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 01 Oct 2020 03:38

Onyx max range is 580 km or around 600 km as per russian news magazine.
So this should be by default the range of Brahmos, if not for the MTCR restrictions.
Once we are party to MTCR, this is the default range of Brahmos.

So calling the 450/550 km range missile as Brahmos - ER is mere jugglery.

During pillai/kalam days...russia offered two new projects:
1. Known as Super Brahmos with 1000 km range &
2. Brahmos - mini with 300 km range ( which later became Brahmos - NG)
This proposal came after US - India Nuclear deal. As we know, part of the deal is to formalize India entry to groups like MTCR.

Post MTCR entry in 2016, Bhmos CEO in 2017 mentioned 800 km range Bhmos that can be done in 18 months.

In "18 months" means, it is not a new design /new missile but an upgrade.

But the problem in merely extending the range is the time it takes to reach the target. As the time increases, dispersion area of the target increases. So we need more speed than traditionally noted mach 2.8.
New speed expected is more than Mach 4. It has its challenges.

This year price negotiation for 800km Bhmos went on under Rajnath Singh RM. It was reported price was too steep. Recently i think we closed the deal.

It could be that, initial test will be to increase the speed before increasing the range.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 01 Oct 2020 11:16

A longer-ranged variant (without increase in speed) might have limitations against ships or other mobile targets (because the target has moved further away). But for static land targets, it can still be quite useful.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 01 Oct 2020 11:24

^^
Good point. Very useful against high valued fixed targets on our land borders.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 01 Oct 2020 17:46

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1311628415196303360

JUST IN: India’s @DRDO_India releases picture of Laser Guided Anti-Tank Guided Missile test today from an Arjun tank today (the second in 9 days) at the firing range in Ahmednagar, says it ‘defeated a target at longer range’.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 01 Oct 2020 18:01

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/13 ... 3125532672

Video of the launch

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1311636682622476288

Video just in of the @DRDO_India Laser Guided ATGM being test-fired today from an Arjun tank’s main gun.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 02 Oct 2020 16:44

https://twitter.com/detresfa_/status/13 ... 7029956609

#Areawarning #India issues a notification regarding "Launch of Experimental Flight Vehicle" in the #BayOfBengal area

Launch Window | 12-14 October 2020

Looks like there is going to be a Nirbhay test this month

nam · Post by **nam** » 02 Oct 2020 16:54

Looks like IA suddenly realized the value of having a 1000KM CM. Tells us how the threat from China was underestimated.

They planned to go "better" CM with longer range and indian engine, instead of inducting the current version. Now that the threat is open, there is a scramble.

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 02 Oct 2020 19:24

nam wrote:Looks like IA suddenly realized the value of having a 1000KM CM. Tells us how the threat from China was underestimated.

They planned to go "better" CM with longer range and indian engine, instead of inducting the current version. Now that the threat is open, there is a scramble.

Best is the enemy of good.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 02 Oct 2020 19:30

nam wrote:Looks like IA suddenly realized the value of having a 1000KM CM. Tells us how the threat from China was underestimated.

They planned to go "better" CM with longer range and indian engine, instead of inducting the current version. Now that the threat is open, there is a scramble.

Not sure if the IA asked for the advanced variation. Per Shiv Aroor (& only he reported this), IA was going to induct the current version, while the IN wanted an advanced version.

At any rate, we can be sure that no rapid-testing or induction would've happened if the enemy wasn't at the gates

asbchakri · Post by **asbchakri** » 02 Oct 2020 19:35

So if we go for mass production of Nirbhay, who would be doing it and what could be the production rate per year, an estimate based on other missiles production rate.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 02 Oct 2020 19:41

Prem Kumar wrote:
nam wrote:Looks like IA suddenly realized the value of having a 1000KM CM. Tells us how the threat from China was underestimated.

They planned to go "better" CM with longer range and indian engine, instead of inducting the current version. Now that the threat is open, there is a scramble.
Not sure if the IA asked for the advanced variation. Per Shiv Aroor (& only he reported this), IA was going to induct the current version, while the IN wanted an advanced version.

At any rate, we can be sure that no rapid-testing or induction would've happened if the enemy wasn't at the gates

The missile was to be tested with the Manik engine since only limited engines were imported and then inducted. Then suddenly there was a media report of cancellation, even though DRDO chief confirming that Nirbhay was not cancelled in a seminar/webinar we are still sticking to media report on cancellation by a unnamed source. The MOD approval for a "Long Range Land Attack Missile" added fire to the speculation of Nirbhay cancellation

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 02 Oct 2020 19:43

asbchakri wrote:So if we go for mass production of Nirbhay, who would be doing it and what could be the production rate per year, an estimate based on other missiles production rate.

What is the production rate of tomahawk & kalibr missiles?

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 02 Oct 2020 19:49

Kakarat wrote: The missile was to be tested with the Manik engine since only limited engines were imported and then inducted. Then suddenly there was a media report of cancellation, even though DRDO chief confirming that Nirbhay was not cancelled in a seminar/webinar we are still sticking to media report on cancellation by a unnamed source. The MOD approval for a "Long Range Land Attack Missile" added fire to the speculation of Nirbhay cancellation

1) The last test of Nirbhay was 1.5 years ago! And it was a development test, not a user test
2) No one from DRDO or the Services came out and indicated that the program was still alive

So, its quite believable that the program was closed as a TD & work on next version began.

asbchakri · Post by **asbchakri** » 02 Oct 2020 20:00

Kakarat wrote:
asbchakri wrote:So if we go for mass production of Nirbhay, who would be doing it and what could be the production rate per year, an estimate based on other missiles production rate.
What is the production rate of tomahawk & kalibr missiles?

Sorry if you are asking me, I have no Idea

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 02 Oct 2020 20:13

asbchakri wrote:
Kakarat wrote:
What is the production rate of tomahawk & kalibr missiles?
Sorry if you are asking me, I have no Idea

Nobody has, these things are kept secret

Even if any of us knew Nirbhays production numbers or any other missile, we wont be discussing it online

asbchakri · Post by **asbchakri** » 02 Oct 2020 20:18

Kakarat wrote:
asbchakri wrote:
Sorry if you are asking me, I have no Idea
Nobody has, these things are kept secret

Even if any of us knew Nirbhays production numbers or any other missile, we wont be discussing it online

make sense. Thank you.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 02 Oct 2020 21:01

Kakarat wrote:
asbchakri wrote:So if we go for mass production of Nirbhay, who would be doing it and what could be the production rate per year, an estimate based on other missiles production rate.
What is the production rate of tomahawk & kalibr missiles?

If you go by the freely available US budget DoD budget requests, they are planing to buy ~600 air and ship launched land attack cruise missiles this year (200 tomahawk + 400JASSAM).

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 02 Oct 2020 21:07

These articles have the latest news on LRLACM. Apparently its being developed like a Klub S with supersonic terminal stage.

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2020/07 ... ssile.html

With the BrahMos cruise missile, now operational with all three armed forces, taking care supersonic duties — including an active range expansion exercise that will put it out to 900 km or more — the LRLACM will be developed as a clear Nirbhay derivative, but with additional propulsion elements. As Livefist has reported here, the LRLACM could involve a three-stage power system: the Nirbhay booster to put the missile in the air, the NPO Saturn 36MT/Manik turbofan to power the cruise missile through its 1,000-km cruise phase and, finally, a ramjet engine that will push the weapon into supersonic endgame towards its target.

https://drdo.gov.in/sites/default/files ... y_2020.pdf

LRLACM will fly most of its flight at subsonic speeds but it will perform a supersonic sprint in the terminal approach to the target which considerably will reduce the reaction time for the target’s defense systems to react.

Note: the last document is NOT a DRDO statement but a collation of news article.

Having said that a subsonic cruise missile with either Russian or Indian engine will still be quite useful.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 02 Oct 2020 23:47

Will be interesting with this kind of a flight profie

But Nirbhay, as it was originally envisaged has its own benefits. The ability to loiter around a target area, beam back images and pick a target to hit has elements of a CM + UAV/loitering-munition. Can't do it if the terminal stage is supersonic.

So, it'll make sense to have both variants

Igorr · Post by **Igorr** » 03 Oct 2020 01:01

Kanson wrote:Onyx max range is 580 km or around 600 km as per russian news magazine.
So this should be by default the range of Brahmos, if not for the MTCR restrictions.
Once we are party to MTCR, this is the default range of Brahmos. It could be that, initial test will be to increase the speed before increasing the range.

The MTCR treaty actually died after the United States and China began supplying extended range systems to their allies. Back in 2005, I wrote here that the range of the BRAHMOS does not reflect the real capabilities of this missile. We must proceed from the weight and energy capabilities of Onix. An increase in speed in this case means an increase in the range, since the engine is designed for approximately the same operating time in flight. Now, guys, get ready to increase the Club's range to 2500 km, while maintaining the ability to launch from the standard VLS of Talwar frigates.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 03 Oct 2020 04:31

Igorr, love to see you back.

Roop · Post by **Roop** » 03 Oct 2020 04:55

Indranil wrote:Igorr, love to see you back.

Agreed.

Igorr, it's at least 15 years since I last saw you on this forum. Welcome back. All we need now is for Avraam to show up here again.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 03 Oct 2020 05:25

tsarkar wrote:These articles have the latest news on LRLACM. Apparently its being developed like a Klub S with supersonic terminal stage.

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2020/07 ... ssile.html

With the BrahMos cruise missile, now operational with all three armed forces, taking care supersonic duties — including an active range expansion exercise that will put it out to 900 km or more — the LRLACM will be developed as a clear Nirbhay derivative, but with additional propulsion elements. As Livefist has reported here, the LRLACM could involve a three-stage power system: the Nirbhay booster to put the missile in the air, the NPO Saturn 36MT/Manik turbofan to power the cruise missile through its 1,000-km cruise phase and, finally, a ramjet engine that will push the weapon into supersonic endgame towards its target.

This description is difficult to follow. So the missile is cruising at subsonic speed with a non afterburning turbofan. How will it accelerate to supersonic speeds where the ramjet can start operating? Also how complex and expensive is this missile with 3-4 engines.

But the most probable case is that people are confusing two LR cruise missile projects:
1. A subsonic one which is based on the optimization of Nirbhay. I have seen tenders for this. It has been optimized to 1000 kgs of airframe weight, 505 mm diameter and 5600 mm in length. The nose is more pointed signalling higher cruise speed (or terminal velocity). Payload is the same. The equipment bay and fuel tank is much smaller. The engine and intake section has seen refinement not much different. After a long cruise and an empty tanks, the terminal velocity may be supersonic (in a dive).
2. A parallel to Brahmos, but fully desi and modern. Perhaps an analog to the upcoming ASN4NG/ASLP programs from France and UK. Our system is based on STAR. STAR stands for Supersonic TARget. This is the first implementation of the Liquid Fuel Ramjet (LFRJ) engine. Initially, this will be surface launched (with a booster) and will serve as a supersonic target for A2A and S2A missiles. Capable of 2.4M. I have seen a bunch of tenders on this project lately including for assembly stands to carriers. If my estimates are right then, STAR weighs around 600-700 kgs (without the booster). It is easy to visualize an airlaunched version. The stated goals of the ASN4NG is a range of 1000 kms. It can be expected that the Indian system will also attain something similar.