Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

idan · Post by **idan** » 03 Jul 2020 20:38

What happens to the MBDA ASRAAM post Jaguar? It was close to half a billion $ contract and joint manufacturing with BDL.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 03 Jul 2020 20:44

This is the last I heard of ASRAAM in India. Perhaps someone else has more updated info.

India integrates MBDA-designed Mistral and ASRAAM missiles
https://www.aircosmosinternational.com/ ... missiles-7
24 Sept 2019

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 03 Jul 2020 20:49

Another one...

IAF integrating a wide spectrum of ASRAAM
https://www.defenceaviationpost.com/202 ... of-asraam/
22 January 2020

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 04 Jul 2020 02:38

Look at HVT Sir's replies to tweets!

https://twitter.com/manupubby/status/12 ... 66437?s=20 ---> Huge: Defence Ministry clears first ever acquisition of 100 plus home developed Astra long range air to air missiles. Huge fillip for DRDO. To be ordered by both Air Force and Navy.

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/12789 ... 64352?s=20 ---> Astra-nirbhar

=============================

https://twitter.com/Malav551/status/127 ... 28608?s=20 ---> Sir, any updates on integration of Astra to Tejas?

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/12789 ... 35744?s=20 ---> Yes. Integrating.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 04 Jul 2020 12:05

SSridhar wrote:
Prem Kumar wrote:There are a few head-scratching items in the reports surrounding the current DAC approval:

1) A TOI report said that the Brahmos-ER (500Km extended range) would be soon inducted. I thought the inductions of the extended-range version had already begun and even the existing stock was getting upgraded. The 450Km Brahmos test was done in 2017 itself. Maybe it got caught in the OODA loop of DAC-CCS-FinMin
Yes, the 450 Kms test was achieved 3 years back. There was a proposal to increase the range to 600 Kms along with the Russians in 2016. Don't know what happened to that because the test was supposed to be by end of 2018. .

These are all understated ranges. The Russians have an 800km version iirc. I don't see why the Brahmos can't have similar ranges.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 04 Jul 2020 15:13

Its not easy to double the range of a missile of the original, new subystems have to be developed.

idan · Post by **idan** » 04 Jul 2020 15:23

Rakesh wrote:Another one...

IAF integrating a wide spectrum of ASRAAM
https://www.defenceaviationpost.com/202 ... of-asraam/
22 January 2020

My question was specifically around what happens to the MBDA WVR ASRAAMs when Jaguars start to retire in 2023. Do they get repurposed on Su 30 MKIs or do we write-off the investment made with years of shelf life remaining in those ASRAAMs. It is a hell of a lot of money invested!

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 04 Jul 2020 16:14

I think they should be able to intergrate them with the Tejas, M-2000, Rafale Fleet. This with Darin-3 Jaguars should keep the 384 missiles being used.

I dont think they were integrated with the Darin -1 and Darin-2 Jaguar's being begin phased retirement from 2023.

idan · Post by **idan** » 04 Jul 2020 16:58

Aditya_V wrote:I think they should be able to intergrate them with the Tejas, M-2000, Rafale Fleet. This with Darin-3 Jaguars should keep the 384 missiles being used.

I dont think they were integrated with the Darin -1 and Darin-2 Jaguar's being begin phased retirement from 2023.

DARIN 3 is useless, the aircrafts remain underpowered. Another example of waste of money and shoddy planning.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 04 Jul 2020 18:38

idan wrote:My question was specifically around what happens to the MBDA WVR ASRAAMs when Jaguars start to retire in 2023. Do they get repurposed on Su 30 MKIs or do we write-off the investment made with years of shelf life remaining in those ASRAAMs. It is a hell of a lot of money invested!

Reportedly, the Russians are not happy about ASRAAM integration on the Su-30MKI. See below. However, also as per the article below, one pair of Rambhas have undergone the modification.

Russia Sees Red Over India Putting British Missile On Su-30
https://www.livefistdefence.com/2019/07 ... su-30.html
09 July 2019

“No country would allow this,” said Vladimir Drozhzhov, deputy director of Russia’s Federal Service of Military-Technical Cooperation (FSMTC). “This is mostly out of concern for the security of the technology. We are concerned about a foreign manufacturer invited to integrate anything on our equipment.”

Unlike a radar-guided missile, the heat-seeking ASRAAM doesn’t require complex modifications — the IAF, as Livefist reported, has already modified the software on a pair of Su-30s to deploy the ASRAAM.

srai · Post by **srai** » 04 Jul 2020 23:02

No Jaguars will not be retiring in 2023. It will be closer to 2030 when older lots start getting number plated. Depends on how new fleet acquisitions go.

All MiG-21s will be retired by 2025. Their airframe life will be up.

idan · Post by **idan** » 05 Jul 2020 00:43

srai wrote:No Jaguars will not be retiring in 2023. It will be closer to 2030 when older lots start getting number plated. Depends on how new fleet acquisitions go.

All MiG-21s will be retired by 2025. Their airframe life will be up.

Yes but do they serve any purpose today. There is operational cost to maintain the squadron numbers. 2030 seems to be too far fetched ... cannibalized spares will run out much earlier. 70s era deep penetration strike tactics has changed considerably with the range of missiles available today and advancement of air defence systems.

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 05 Jul 2020 00:59

News reports that old jaguars will start retiring 2023 and upgraded lot will serve till 2038.
HVT in his tweet has already said old 2 sq are to be retired and their engines were never meant to be replaced by new engines.
https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 4.ece/amp/

idan · Post by **idan** » 05 Jul 2020 01:03

Unfortunately there will be no new engines for Jaguar. That money is used for Mig 29 airframes and MKIs

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 05 Jul 2020 01:09

^There never was going to engines for Jaguar as Honeywell got too greedy :

https://www.defensenews.com/global/asia ... price-tag/

India cancels Jaguar upgrade over Honeywell’s $2.4B price tag
By: Vivek Raghuvanshi August 26, 2019

NEW DELHI — The Indian Air Force has dropped its plan to upgrade 80 Jaguar ground-attack fighters with new engines over the cost provided by American firm Honeywell.

The service had planned to equip its Jaguar fighters with 280 new Honeywell-built F125IN turbofan engines, but the cost of some $2.4 billion was too expensive, a senior Air Force official said. The new engines were to be integrated on 80 Jaguars by Indian state-owned company Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, which wanted $3.12 million per installation, an equally expensive ask, he added.

The Air Force in 2016 selected the F125IN on a single-vendor basis, and there were discussions to procure 280 of the turbofans (including 40 spare engines). The service wants to replace the Adour engine, which currently powers the Jaguar aircraft, with a higher-thrust engine to improve mission performance, particularly in medium- and high-level sorties, according to another Air Force official.

To keeping the existing Jaguar fleet operational, the Air Force last year directed Hindustan Aeronautics to procure airframes and spares from used, overseas Jaguars.

A company executive confirmed that the firm began such a search, and procured airframes, engines and multiple types of frequently used spare parts from France; two airframes, eight engines and spare parts from Oman; and two twin-seater aircraft and spare parts from the United Kingdom.

idan · Post by **idan** » 05 Jul 2020 01:22

The whole idea of upgrading Jaguar was ill-planned

kit · Post by **kit** » 05 Jul 2020 01:41

Manish_Sharma wrote:^There never was going to engines for Jaguar as Honeywell got too greedy :

https://www.defensenews.com/global/asia ... price-tag/

India cancels Jaguar upgrade over Honeywell’s $2.4B price tag
By: Vivek Raghuvanshi August 26, 2019

NEW DELHI — The Indian Air Force has dropped its plan to upgrade 80 Jaguar ground-attack fighters with new engines over the cost provided by American firm Honeywell.

The service had planned to equip its Jaguar fighters with 280 new Honeywell-built F125IN turbofan engines, but the cost of some $2.4 billion was too expensive, a senior Air Force official said. The new engines were to be integrated on 80 Jaguars by Indian state-owned company Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, which wanted $3.12 million per installation, an equally expensive ask, he added.

The Air Force in 2016 selected the F125IN on a single-vendor basis, and there were discussions to procure 280 of the turbofans (including 40 spare engines). The service wants to replace the Adour engine, which currently powers the Jaguar aircraft, with a higher-thrust engine to improve mission performance, particularly in medium- and high-level sorties, according to another Air Force official.

To keeping the existing Jaguar fleet operational, the Air Force last year directed Hindustan Aeronautics to procure airframes and spares from used, overseas Jaguars.

A company executive confirmed that the firm began such a search, and procured airframes, engines and multiple types of frequently used spare parts from France; two airframes, eight engines and spare parts from Oman; and two twin-seater aircraft and spare parts from the United Kingdom.

Jaguars are going to be replaced by the mk 2 Tejas, 10 yr (maybe less) down the line, no sense re engining them at such cost. This was decided a year ago.

kit · Post by **kit** » 05 Jul 2020 01:45

Rakesh wrote:
idan wrote:My question was specifically around what happens to the MBDA WVR ASRAAMs when Jaguars start to retire in 2023. Do they get repurposed on Su 30 MKIs or do we write-off the investment made with years of shelf life remaining in those ASRAAMs. It is a hell of a lot of money invested!
Reportedly, the Russians are not happy about ASRAAM integration on the Su-30MKI. See below. However, also as per the article below, one pair of Rambhas have undergone the modification.

Russia Sees Red Over India Putting British Missile On Su-30
https://www.livefistdefence.com/2019/07 ... su-30.html
09 July 2019

“No country would allow this,” said Vladimir Drozhzhov, deputy director of Russia’s Federal Service of Military-Technical Cooperation (FSMTC). “This is mostly out of concern for the security of the technology. We are concerned about a foreign manufacturer invited to integrate anything on our equipment.”

Unlike a radar-guided missile, the heat-seeking ASRAAM doesn’t require complex modifications — the IAF, as Livefist reported, has already modified the software on a pair of Su-30s to deploy the ASRAAM.

Long shot but can India integrate the Meteor on the Tejas, if the manufacturer is willing? Could be a very significant deterrent for the western front !

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 05 Jul 2020 03:05

MBDA had objected to doing so with an Israeli radar iirc. May be when Uttam enters service, although by then SFDR might be nearing completion.

negi · Post by **negi** » 05 Jul 2020 03:10

^ You mean the science project ; I think given the fact that even AAD and PAD are not actually actively deployed (doesn't matter if it is ncert history rattoo babu , paan spitting politician or the golf playing kernail who fckd up) all this forward looking scenario building based on school laboratory grade science projects is BS. Fact is people can't get shit done in this country ; most of the military hardware is Rajpath Jhanki grade stuff. At the end of the day we are going to import M777 , Rafale or <fill in whatever one wishes to import>.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 05 Jul 2020 03:13

^Astra came pretty good, didn't it Negi ji?
Its tested, inducted and now ordered in huge number (by desi standards)

negi · Post by **negi** » 05 Jul 2020 03:17

Kachua chaap kaam hai , I mean inducted in large numbers as in ? Storing them under tarpaulin tents doesn't count. Even today if you see AC flying in leh or Laddakh Astra is not part of the arsenal , these are honorary inductions , chootiya kata hai sabka .

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Jul 2020 03:26

idan wrote:The whole idea of upgrading Jaguar was ill-planned

We get the picture.

Jaguar was underpowered from get go.
So trying to get a powerful engine was good oh see.
But turned out expensive.
Looking at cost benefit analysis was not worth it.
But existing airframes will be used till they get exhausted.

Without DARIN Jaguar was pretty useless.
One of the successfully initiatives.

ASRAAM with remaing life will get transferred to other planes.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Jul 2020 03:32

kit, DRDO AAM roadmap is Astra Mk1, Mk2, SFDR, and Brahmos ER from Su30.
Once th Rafale come they will carry Meteor. The WVR story will be obsolete like the air to air guns.

sum · Post by **sum** » 05 Jul 2020 06:26

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 05 Jul 2020 08:26

I see that no response to Negiji realism...

Nilanjan · Post by **Nilanjan** » 05 Jul 2020 08:41

Aditya_V wrote:
Prem Kumar wrote:T
4) SDR was clear. It took them 16 months after Balakot (Abhinandan going down after losing situational awareness) and a Chinese imminent war before someone decided that we need jam-proof comms & "look, surprise, we have been sitting on one for a few years now!"
Err.. read the PTI press realease, even I thought SDR was for airforce, but it says is for Indian Army

Airforce sdr contract signed with isreali company after balakot,,this is drdo designed sdr for army

Nilanjan · Post by **Nilanjan** » 05 Jul 2020 08:45

Cain Marko wrote:
SSridhar wrote: Yes, the 450 Kms test was achieved 3 years back. There was a proposal to increase the range to 600 Kms along with the Russians in 2016. Don't know what happened to that because the test was supposed to be by end of 2018. .
These are all understated ranges. The Russians have an 800km version iirc. I don't see why the Brahmos can't have similar ranges.

Russians demanding huge extra money for that upgrade..also,range of cruise missile is dependent on altitude of flight.so, 800 km at what altitude is not clear..

Nilanjan · Post by **Nilanjan** » 05 Jul 2020 08:50

Manish_Sharma wrote:TWITTER

Rahul_Dhammi:

So Now We Know:
LRLACM = NIRBHAY (2 stage = Solid Booster & Turbofan) + 3rd stage(Liquid Fueled Ramjet)
3rd stage(Same mechanism as Brahmos) will provide
A. Longer Range ~ 1500 km
B. Better EndGame Energy & Manoeuvrability
NIRBHAY: IA Induction V Soon
LRLACM: Design & Devp Phase
Image:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eb7SSonU4AA ... name=small

https://twitter.com/rahul_dhammi/status ... 14723?s=20

the pictured missile is in devlopment stage at livefist lab,it's chief designer is shiv aroor and it will be in r&d stage untill shiv aroor leaves journalism...

Nalla Baalu · Post by **Nalla Baalu** » 05 Jul 2020 09:01

sum wrote: ...
Honestly, the biggest heartbreak is the Nirbhay which was dragged on by a terrible lab like ADE and now when we really needed it, we are rejoicing the fact that R&D has been sanctioned for a LRCM with a decade long timeline( which atleast Mk 1 should have been in service)
...

sum saar, per a @tarmak report in Feb 2020, Nirbhay is technically closed but not abandonded, its rechistened as ITCM. Was to be tested 1H 2020 with local powerplant. Must be held up due to Covid situation.

DefExpo: Indian Navy to get new land attack cruise missile

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 05 Jul 2020 11:59

Generally in the Indian set up a firm order/DAC clearance with pricing Lrcm will not happen before development trials, this must be something which has passed through various tests and they know what it takes to build it.

Akash got such a clearance in 2009 with induction 2011-12.

srai · Post by **srai** » 05 Jul 2020 14:36

ASB-Glide Bomb

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 05 Jul 2020 14:43

srai wrote:ASB-Glide Bomb
...

Is it a conversion kit for standard iron bombs? The nose appears to have quite a bit of electronics (from what i can make out of the blurry image), which might suggest it not a conversion kit.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 Jul 2020 04:10

srai, Thanks. ramana

Have you seen the PQSR?

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 07 Jul 2020 04:40

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1280169812371443712

So, DRDO has signed a license & tech transfer agreement with Bharat Dynamics Limited (BDL) for the Army version of the Akash surface to air missile system. The Indian Army is expected to order two regiments of the seeker-equipped version of the Akash called Akash1P (1S) from BDL.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 07 Jul 2020 09:07

ASB Glide Bomb, in that poster above, is what is known as Garuthma.

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 07 Jul 2020 23:03

pankajs wrote:https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1280169812371443712
So, DRDO has signed a license & tech transfer agreement with Bharat Dynamics Limited (BDL) for the Army version of the Akash surface to air missile system. The Indian Army is expected to order two regiments of the seeker-equipped version of the Akash called Akash1P (1S) from BDL.

Per a Defence AV on You Tube Baharat Dynamics Ltd will be given the order to manufacture total 2000 Akash 1S Missiles and It has capacity to manufacture 100 Missiles each month.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 08 Jul 2020 02:56

SSridhar, The original PQSR for these stand off bombs was found by a member.

There are two classes 125 kg and 1000 kg.
Both requirements are for Penetration cum Blast (PCB) and Blast fragmentation (BF).
The PCB need high accuracy while the BF not that much.

The SAAW fulfills the 125 kg class in both PCB and BF categories.

Looks like ISB/IGB versions are still in development.

I would guess the BF version of 1000 kg class development is complete.
So expect the PCB version to be trialed soon.

Delay is over what target set they want to destroy?
This determines the C/M ratio of the warhead.

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 08 Jul 2020 08:27

Vips wrote:
pankajs wrote:https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1280169812371443712
Per a Defence AV on You Tube Baharat Dynamics Ltd will be given the order to manufacture total 2000 Akash 1S Missiles and It has capacity to manufacture 100 Missiles each month.

That news was paddled by idrw and picked up sasta experts on youtube about 2000 Akash missiles. Deal is yet to take place and needs times to be vetted

mody · Post by **mody** » 08 Jul 2020 15:25

negi wrote:^ You mean the science project ; I think given the fact that even AAD and PAD are not actually actively deployed (doesn't matter if it is ncert history rattoo babu , paan spitting politician or the golf playing kernail who fckd up) all this forward looking scenario building based on school laboratory grade science projects is BS. Fact is people can't get shit done in this country ; most of the military hardware is Rajpath Jhanki grade stuff. At the end of the day we are going to import M777 , Rafale or <fill in whatever one wishes to import>.

I can almost bet that the AAD and PAD/PDV will not be deployed. If at all they are cleared, it will only be a token deployment, kind of to keep the scientists happy, when you tell them to start working on a improved version.
BMD will most definitely come via an import route only. The reason that AAD-PDV combo will not be widely deployed as our 1st stage BMD is that no white skinned expert is going to be available to tell us that the system is good enough. On the contrary, there will be many white skinned experts ready to sell us every other kind of system being peddled anywhere in the world.