Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

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nash
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by nash »

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1473919379427721216

BREAKING: India conducts another test of the Pralay short range ballistic missile today — second test in 24 hours. This is the third test since 2018.
Livefist has maintained their stand on number of test and if missile serial number has any indication then they are not wrong.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by SSridhar »

Prem Kumar wrote:Happy to see the urgency. Sad that this comes only because China has been at the door for 1.5 years (more if you count Doklam).

Pralay has been ready since 2018. Shaurya, for more than a decade. Our planners wake up now.

There was a HT report that said that Shaurya induction under SFC was authorized in Oct 2020. I just hope inductions are happening but us not knowing is because the GOI wants to keep it that way. One can be optimistic.
We can be happy at the flurry of various missile tests in recent weeks & months.

However, I am not sure if Pralay has been ready since 2018. AFAIK, Pralay’s developmental trials were to be by c. 2017 and user trials by c. 2018.

As for Shaurya, the 2020 induction into SFC was about the newer version of the missile that was said to be lighter.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by ramana »

It says PR03. It Means third test vehicle.

Interesting that the first stage has three-ring joints.
Looks like the aft control section gets joined at the aft-most ring.
Quite interesting is the mid-joint ring.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by ramana »

I take back my estimate of fins for guidance. Its thrust vector control. The fins are for stability and deployment after ejecting from the canister.
The quasi aero ballistic trajectory requires a long motor burn.
So the propellant grain is shaped to give thrust till the end.
Basically, they achieved with a solid fuel missile the characteristics of a liquid fuel engine.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by nam »

Looks like the first stage is composite?

Allows for higher thrust motor and ofcourse with lower weight.

We can notice the Pralay seems to have higher acceleration..
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by ramana »

nam, From that video linked by jits the propellant and the grain design, are new.
More energetic and long age possibly.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Atmavik »

ramana wrote:I take back my estimate of fins for guidance. Its thrust vector control. The fins are for stability and deployment after ejecting from the canister.
The quasi aero ballistic trajectory requires a long motor burn.
So the propellant grain is shaped to give thrust till the end.
Basically, they achieved with a solid fuel missile the characteristics of a liquid fuel engine.
ISROS S200 boosters use a similar technique of propellant grain
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/GODOFPARADOXES/stat ... 96743?s=20 ----> AFAIK the reaction bonded silicon nitride radome shown below in the infograph is for the future Pralay variant with MMW seeker which will allow Pralay to hit targets with pinpoint accuracy. Silicon nitride radome can survive high aerodynamic & thermal loads at hypersonic speeds.

Image

Image
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by nam »

I am not sure mmW seeker can be used as the primary seeker. mmW will not have the range required for a BM warhead. Higher the frequency, lower the range..

mmW will be used with the bomb-lets inside the warhead. I believe it is called ML-PGM, a variant of SANT.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by kit »

The Pralay missile can be classified as a hypersonic weapon i think., its a ballistic missile with a quasi ballistic trajectory., a BM flying with cruise missile characteristics
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by brar_w »

Even a standard ballistic missile can be technically classified as a hypersonic weapon. In fact most ballistic missiles with ranges greater than 1000/1500 km do approach or exceed that Mach 5 speed. This is also true for some Quasi ballistic missiles (like Iskander) and standard MRBMs and IRBMs (not to mention ICBMs). The term "hypersonic" when applied to current crop of weapons is for air-breathing (ramjet or scramjet) or boost glider equipped weapons that sustain hypersonic speeds within atmosphere and for majority of their flight profile. As far as tactical weapons, the glider equipped DF-17 is currently the only boost glide hypersonic system currently operational with the Russian Kinzhal and Iskander being quasi ballistic missiles even though they may experience regimes where they achieve or exceed that Mach 5 speed. With medium ranged boost gliders, you are basically hitting speeds close to or exceeding M10 and then using your efficient glider design to sustain M5 or more for more than 50% of your range at 50 or so km altitudes. So you basically replace the dominant mid-course phase of flight in a ballistic missile (which is in space), to a glide phase which can be anywhere at 40-70 km altitude depending on how efficient, and how capable your glide vehicle is. By doing so you spend time cruising in a part of the atmosphere that you would normally pass through with a standard ballistic missile. For example, the US LRHW is expected to cruise around 50 km altitude (at or above M5) for for more than 1500 km. Thats several orders of magnitude longer (time) than a comparable ballistic missile would spend at that profile. Even a MaRV doesn't come close as it too is mostly maneuvering and not cruising at that altitude. This why Avangard, LRHW, DF-17 etc are clubbed in this category while the quasi S/MRBMs, MaRV equipped, or even pure ballistic missiles are kept outside.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/DfIlite/status/1474 ... 09696?s=20 ---> Two Pralay coming with hypersonic speed. It's game changer. 500 - 700 km and 1000 kg warhead.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Rakesh »

Read this piece :mrgreen: by the Federation of American Scientists (FAS).

India’s Nuclear Arsenal Takes A Big Step Forward
https://fas.org/blogs/security/2021/12/ ... p-forward/
23 Dec 2021
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/147 ... 90759?s=20 ---> The second back to back test is another message to China about India's production capacity for both missile avionics as well as propellants. In my view it is also an indicator of the maturity reached by the K-15 production line.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by kit »

Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/DfIlite/status/1474 ... 09696?s=20 ---> Two Pralay coming with hypersonic speed. It's game changer. 500 - 700 km and 1000 kg warhead.
6 canister launcher? .. that's 6 tons of high explosives at hypersonic speed .. no one would want to be anywhere near the receiving end :shock:
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by fanne »

What is the real range of Prahar - the one from rocket sim?
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by John »

kit wrote:
Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/DfIlite/status/1474 ... 09696?s=20 ---> Two Pralay coming with hypersonic speed. It's game changer. 500 - 700 km and 1000 kg warhead.
6 canister launcher? .. that's 6 tons of high explosives at hypersonic speed .. no one would want to be anywhere near the receiving end :shock:
What do you mean? He is showing 2x launcher config for Prahar in 8x8 (6 in 12x12) not sure how it is relevant Pralay as it is completely different missile. We don’t know what the launch configuration is for that. Only pic so far was a model displayed with 4 missile in a 12x12 truck.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by nam »

Speculating what would be required for our own S400 by taking the QRSAM architecture.
  • ADTCR: I am fairly certain the current version can scan atleast 200KM. A longer ranged, vertical antenna, instead of the horizontal design. May be an L band version might be useful for longer range..
    It is to be airbase deployed or closer to an airbase, it could be the upcoming HPR.
    -Ashwini for low level detection. A GaN version would result in a smaller antenna.
    BMFR: Need Longer range, probably would be 2 faced rotating head instead of the current 4 panel. The current design cannot be used for longer range. Or I suppose a single panel like S400, given the range would give enough time to switch direction if required.
    BSR: Longer range, 2 faced rotating head. May be replace it with Ashwini
    QRSAM/VL-SRSAM for short range interception
    Barak8/ER/Akash NG/ER for medium range interception.
    XRSAM missile rounds.
Each battalion would get Ashwini/BSR & BMFR with QRSAM/VLSRSAM, Barak8/Akash NG & XRSAM rounds.

ADTCR becomes the common search radar.

The building blocks are available.It could be a ABM system, depending if the XRSAM round is optimized for aircraft (slim like Barak8) or thick(AD1/AD2 type rounds).
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by brar_w »

For an all encompassing multi-mission long range AMD system, the most critical element is the C2 and battle management or the network, and brains of the system (and their associated testing, threat libraries, MDFs etc). For example, AEGIS's most important achievement is fielding the CS and the 10 baselines that they've developed to add missions and to take it to where they've taken it including the common source library and the broader architecture. The sensors and effectors come and go and are upgraded etc but its the baseline that defines the capability and ensures that it can be kept relevant and can address threats that come up over time without requiring a completely new system each time the thread advances beyond a certain threshold. Yet, everything we read about is "lets cobble together these radars, let's make a larger interceptor etc etc"...or more recently " lets field radar across each major RF band and that would do the trick" :lol:

The fundamental capability to replicating a very long range AMD system is its brains, communication, how it networks with other disparate systems, and how well and how often is new capability added to it. That's the fundamental part without which no combination of radars or missiles will be effective in getting what is hoped for (ultra long range defense as many like to drool about). Also, the entire notion that fatter interceptors are optimized for ballistic missiles, and slimmer rounds are optimized for aircraft is divorced from reality. Missiles are optimized for a particular requirement. We have numerous examples of highly 'optimized' ballistic missile defense (priority) weapons, and much larger missiles less optimized for the same function. The opposite is also true. What attribute your interceptor takes cannot be separated from system trades elsewhere (like your C2BMC capability, your radar, how you chose to perform missile communication and latency etc)..Next generation C2BMC are trending towards enabling true composite integrated air and missile defense capability as opposed to bespoke stand alone systems. But here we are (on the forum not the IAF) thinking 20 years in the past trying to dream up a monolithic system like it was being designed in the 80s or 90s (that's literally when the S-400 was likely architectured).
Last edited by brar_w on 26 Dec 2021 08:34, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Neela »

Wish We show target accuracy video more vs launches only. Any such videos available?
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by ShivS »

brar_w wrote:For an all encompassing multi-mission long range AMD system, the most critical element is the C2 and battle management or the network, and brains of the system (and their associated testing, threat libraries, MDFs etc). For example, AEGIS's most important achievement is fielding the CS and the 10 baselines that they've developed to add missions and to take it to where they've taken it including the common source library and the ).
To quote an old Indian jingle, har ek emitter/sensor zaroori hota hai…

Tech to do this is there - should see networks of passive sensors and sharing of raw, or minimally processed sensor output soon.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... 06401?s=20 ---> Each BrahMos-NG missile will reportedly cost over $2.6 million and initial production rate will be 100 missiles/year with deliveries from 2024-25 onwards.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by John »

Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... 06401?s=20 ---> Each BrahMos-NG missile will reportedly cost over $2.6 million and initial production rate will be 100 missiles/year with deliveries from 2024-25 onwards.
Does he have any source or just throwing something out and hoping it’s right, it hasn’t even been tested yet even. It won’t hit production before 2025 even if testing starts now, even 2030 deadline for production is very tight.

Brahmos extended range cost around $7mill each so price seems bit off too.


https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... M_amp.html
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by John »

Here is the actual source for it, note it specifies the facility will be running in two to three years not that Brahmos NG will be produced in 2-3 years. Another source lists it as Brahmos manufacturing facility not Brahmos NG specific, I suspect it will assembled both Brahmos and Brahmos NG when ready.

https://frontline.thehindu.com/dispatch ... 0.ece/amp/
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Rakesh »

Thanks John. The problem I find with Wolfpack is that he never puts the source of his tweets. If you dig, you will find it 99.9% of the time.

Thank you for providing the source. Greatly appreciated. But I still don't see how he came up with the unit cost of the missile.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by sanjayc »

It’s a deal: Philippines agrees to procure India’s BrahMos missile system for $55 million – Reports | India News

‘Done deal’: Philippines allocates funds to buy India’s BrahMos missile system
The Philippines government recently allocated 2.8 billion pesos ($55.5 million) for initial funding for the BrahMos cruise missile
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 78707.html
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by ramana »

sanjayc, Thanks for the info.
JEM was worried on Twitter about this.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Rakesh »

Best news ever. Thanks SanjayC
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by ramana »

Philippines is melting pot of India and China before the Spanish conquest of the Philippines.
Lots of Tamil copper plates were found.
There is a branch of studies known as the pre-Columbine Phillipines.
And their need is stronger for stand-off weapons.
Most likely Manila Bay stations for IN too.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by ernest »

Truly the start of a new era for Indian MIC. The growth in missile exports should be exponential in the next few years given how our systems have matured. My gratitude to all the people who are enabling this shift
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by sanjaykumar »

Enormous implications for China and the heretofore enforced meekness of the Indian.

India is now in a position to pull very significant strategic levers in the Indian Pacific.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Roop »

sanjaykumar wrote:Enormous implications for China and the heretofore enforced meekness of the Indian.

India is now in a position to pull very significant strategic levers in the Indian Pacific.
Agreed, this is huge. And if what Ramana said is officially confirmed (IN basing rights in Phillipines ports), it goes from "huge" to earth-shaking.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Indranil »

I have a feeling. A smaller NAG is in design at DRDL.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Pratyush »

Indranil wrote:I have a feeling. A smaller NAG is in design at DRDL.
A different weapon from man portable Nag?
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Vips »

Today is the last day for this NOTAM. Hope it is not in waste and we end the year with test launch of a new system.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by ldev »

John wrote:
Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... 06401?s=20 ---> Each BrahMos-NG missile will reportedly cost over $2.6 million and initial production rate will be 100 missiles/year with deliveries from 2024-25 onwards.
Does he have any source or just throwing something out and hoping it’s right, it hasn’t even been tested yet even. It won’t hit production before 2025 even if testing starts now, even 2030 deadline for production is very tight.

Brahmos extended range cost around $7mill each so price seems bit off too.


https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... M_amp.html
As regards cost of various missiles being considered for the Indian Rocket Force the article by Saurav Jha in The Diplomat has the Brahmos, Prahlay and Agni Prime in the mix and has the following quote :
But the Brahmos, though highly accurate and capable of prosecuting even time critical targets when equipped with a MMW seeker, is also made up of a lot of imported content. While in recent years, India has indigenized the INS, airframe, booster, and even the front-end seeker of the baseline model, the control and propulsion systems of this missile continue to be Russian. Moreover, owing to the terms of the Indo-Russian joint venture that builds the Brahmos, these subsystems will continue to be imported for the baseline Brahmos. The imported content of Brahmos in turn serves to make the missile a tad expensive. The missile’s 200 kg warhead also make it ill-suited for attacking large area targets.
And an earlier Twitter post by Defence Code, even though it may not entirely accurate has similar comparative costs:

Defence Decode®
@DefenceDecode
Estimated Cost of some of the Indian missiles...
BRAHMOS: 25-35 crore
Prithvi Missile: 3-4 cr
Pralay: 5+ cr
Parahar: 4-5cr
Agni 5: 55-60 cr.
https://twitter.com/defencedecode/statu ... 25?lang=en

The upper estimate for the regular Brahmos according to this tweet is Rs 35 crores so the Rs 47 crores for the extended range Brahmos as given in the article linked by John is quite realistic.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by SriKumar »

Neela wrote:Wish We show target accuracy video more vs launches only. Any such videos available?
There is one for the anti satellite test India carried out a few years ago. A satellite is a very small target and moving at high speed. Missile is also traveling very fastly. They released Official DRDO video , now on YouTube which has actual footage of impact with satellite.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Prem Kumar »

This is awesome news! Hope the actual contract signing is a new year's gift to the nation.

But going by the per unit cost of Brahmos ($5 Mil - 35 Crores), a $55M allocation translates to 11 or 12 Brahmos missiles. India is extending a $100M line of credit, which will hopefully double the count.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Narad »

SriKumar wrote:
Neela wrote:Wish We show target accuracy video more vs launches only. Any such videos available?
There is one for the anti satellite test India carried out a few years ago. A satellite is a very small target and moving at high speed. Missile is also traveling very fastly. They released Official DRDO video , now on YouTube which has actual footage of impact with satellite.
Sir can you please post the link?
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