Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

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Karan M
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Karan M »

Any links?
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by John »

Karan M wrote:Any links?
Little OT but relevant as Barak-8 ABM capabilities aren’t advertised.
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/azer ... -shot-down
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by hnair »

This story is a good lesson why a serious power need to own the whole stack of a pivotal weapon system and not go for “co-development” without veto clauses for sale to third party. The yahoodi bros sold Barak8-ER to Azerbaijan in 2018 or so, a client state of Turkey. And that in turn makes it a problem if we learn during a hot scene that the paki can jam yahoodi active seekers like IAF did with their AMRAAM.

Su57 was another such where India fortunately pulled the plug early on after no assurances about any future sale to China could be given. Glad it resulted in more serious backing for post-Tejas aircrafts.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Karan M »

Everything we've purchased from abroad has this issue. Rafale, Scorpene, Barak-8, RVV-AE, S-400, all compromised to some degree or the other, with theur broad specs known to many countries. Akash NG, XRSAM, MWF, Astra Mk2, MWF, AMCA are the answer.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Karan M »

John wrote:
Karan M wrote:Any links?
Little OT but relevant as Barak-8 ABM capabilities aren’t advertised.
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/azer ... -shot-down
Not at all OT, but valuable information. Thanks.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Aditya_V »

The Israelis have done what the Russians have done in past, used our funding and help for R&D and then sale to the highest bidder. Only thing is Azerbaijan will have limited nos of these and if they really go beyond limits, Armenia Russia would have overwhelmed their defenses. Israel must have got access to human resources through Iran as part of these deals, more that Turkish Bayraktars it was Israeli weapons which helped Azerbaijan.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Karan M »

I wouldn't worry about Barak-8, as we've already got Akash-NG in our quiver and it will be followed by XRSAM.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by hnair »

Karan M wrote:I wouldn't worry about Barak-8, as we've already got Akash-NG in our quiver and it will be followed by XRSAM.
Karan M, wouldn’t XRSAM be based on the Barak8 airframe and sensors? Or is it going to be based on the AAD work? I hope it is the later or a totally greenfield one!
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by brar_w »

Aditya_V wrote:The Israelis have done what the Russians have done in past, used our funding and help for R&D and then sale to the highest bidder. Only thing is Azerbaijan will have limited nos of these and if they really go beyond limits, Armenia Russia would have overwhelmed their defenses. Israel must have got access to human resources through Iran as part of these deals, more that Turkish Bayraktars it was Israeli weapons which helped Azerbaijan.
The system is predominantly an export system so they would have built that into the equation at the design level itself. Israel's main AMD used for its strategic and tactical defense are Iron Dome, David's Sling, and Arrow so those are its core systems that are worth protecting as far as the capability getting into the wrong hands are concerned and even then, they could always have an export variant without outright saying that they have an export variant (its not like foreign clients get to dissect Israel's own batteries to see what level of technology or capability they field).
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Karan M »

hnair wrote:
Karan M wrote:I wouldn't worry about Barak-8, as we've already got Akash-NG in our quiver and it will be followed by XRSAM.
Karan M, wouldn’t XRSAM be based on the Barak8 airframe and sensors? Or is it going to be based on the AAD work? I hope it is the later or a totally greenfield one!
It may look like a Barak-8 but it won't be. Very similar to the Akash-NG. Revealed schema shows a Barak-8 type missile on a large booster (also with jet vane TVC). We wont be using any Israeli kit anyplace, bar any subcomponents.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Aditya_V »

brar_w wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:The Israelis have done what the Russians have done in past, used our funding and help for R&D and then sale to the highest bidder. Only thing is Azerbaijan will have limited nos of these and if they really go beyond limits, Armenia Russia would have overwhelmed their defenses. Israel must have got access to human resources through Iran as part of these deals, more that Turkish Bayraktars it was Israeli weapons which helped Azerbaijan.
The system is predominantly an export system so they would have built that into the equation at the design level itself. Israel's main AMD used for its strategic and tactical defense are Iron Dome, David's Sling, and Arrow so those are its core systems that are worth protecting as far as the capability getting into the wrong hands are concerned and even then, they could always have an export variant without outright saying that they have an export variant (its not like foreign clients get to dissect Israel's own batteries to see what level of technology or capability they field).
Many Israeli Naval ships are equipped with it and Iranian have already hit one with Barak 1, well this sale to Azerbaijan could still bite Israel in the Back.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by brar_w »

Aditya_V wrote:
brar_w wrote:
The system is predominantly an export system so they would have built that into the equation at the design level itself. Israel's main AMD used for its strategic and tactical defense are Iron Dome, David's Sling, and Arrow so those are its core systems that are worth protecting as far as the capability getting into the wrong hands are concerned and even then, they could always have an export variant without outright saying that they have an export variant (its not like foreign clients get to dissect Israel's own batteries to see what level of technology or capability they field).
Many Israeli Naval ships are equipped with it and Iranian have already hit one with Barak 1, well this sale to Azerbaijan could still bite Israel in the Back.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7625&p=2490372#p2490372
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by John »

Aditya_V wrote:Many Israeli Naval ships are equipped with it and Iranian have already hit one with Barak 1, well this sale to Azerbaijan could still bite Israel in the Back.
Are you talking about INS Hanit incident over a decade ago the crew decided not to activate the system and it was offline.

OT Azerbaijan and Iran are not allies, one of reason Israel arms Az is because of Armenia’s close relationship with Russia and Iran. Ironically it was Iranian threat of attack that forced Azerbaijan to a ceasefire in Armenia while Russia couldn’t do squat.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Cain Marko »

hnair wrote:This story is a good lesson why a serious power need to own the whole stack of a pivotal weapon system and not go for “co-development” without veto clauses for sale to third party. The yahoodi bros sold Barak8-ER to Azerbaijan in 2018 or so, a client state of Turkey. And that in turn makes it a problem if we learn during a hot scene that the paki can jam yahoodi active seekers like IAF did with their AMRAAM.

Su57 was another such where India fortunately pulled the plug early on after no assurances about any future sale to China could be given. Glad it resulted in more serious backing for post-Tejas aircrafts.
Not arguing the overall assessment, which I agree with, but I don't think it is that easy to jam/spoof newer systems like the Barak8/S400. AESA based radars/seekers would be more difficult to jam. MOreover, the Barak 8 also comes with an IIR variant - how exactly are the Turks/TSPians et al., going to jam this?

The IAF uses top end jammers (and the MKI allows the use of very powerful jammers), moreover, the Aim-120C5 is hardly the latest variant in the Amraam family. Not sure it uses an AESA seeker for example, (nor a dual pulse motor) both of which are on the Barak 8. The best the TSPAF has is the blk 50, which too came without a full EW suite (DRFM). And by the time, they figure out a workaround, India should have moved on to its own variants.

Frankly, if I were Israel I'd be more concerned with this system being compromised by Iran via Azeris.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Prem Kumar »

Is XRSAM even a sanctioned project that the DRDO is working on? I've seen it being mentioned but also counter-facts that the project is yet to be sanctioned
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by nachiket »

Cain Marko wrote: The best the TSPAF has is the blk 50, which too came without a full EW suite (DRFM).
The block 50/52 has the AN/ALQ-211 EW suite, which includes an integrated RWR, Advanced Threat Radar Jammer (ATRJ) and CMDS. Probably not a DRFM jammer considering the system's age, but it does still qualify as a full EW suite. I am sure pakis must have bought podded jammers for their F-16 fleet at some point. Would be too glaring an omission otherwise.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Roop »

On a slightly different topic: Karan, do you know when Astra Mk3 (i.e. SFDR air-launched version) is due to start flight trials?
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Haridas »

nam wrote:Would anyone know why don't we see Brahmos type intake in these missiles? Is it because solid fuel requires more air mass compared to what a Brahmos type intake provides?

Brahmos type intake would probably be more aero efficient, while carrying on the fighter or in flight.
BRAHMOS nose intake is aero efficient config, but it's penalty is that full length air duct eats away volume for fuel & warhead ; in addition the heat from compressed ram air poses other thermal budget problem. The reduced frontal area available for radar seeker is yet another issue.

Compact missile thus requires side ram intake.

As Indranil said the booster is like Akash Ram jet missile.

The throttling solid fuel injection is key to long range (supersonic drag is much lower at high altitude) powered flight that lasts a very long flight time, key for NEZ range.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by shaun »

Aditya_V wrote:
Many Israeli Naval ships are equipped with it and Iranian have already hit one with Barak 1, well this sale to Azerbaijan could still bite Israel in the Back.
The onboard barak system was switched off
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Indranil »

ADE is moving the Nirbhay launcher to an 8x8. It can be a Tata or an Ashok Leyland 8x8. But L&T is the system integrator. Expect something like this.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Sumeet »

Can we not swap out Rafael's seeker from Barak-8 and replace with Akash NG or Astra Mk2/SFDR in due course of time ?
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 34179?s=20 ---> Israel's IAI successfully tests 150 km ranged Barak-8 ER missile by carrying out a successful interception of a high speed ballistic missile with the weapon system.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/ReviewVayu/status/1 ... 23170?s=20 ---> MoD: New Inventions by DRDO

In the past 3 years, 79 projects worth Rs.8201 Cr i.e. Cruise Missile, Anti-Ship Missile, SAMs, AAMs, Extended Range Anti-Submarine Rocket, Mounted Gun System, Ammunitions, EW System, Radars, Torpedoes, etc have been undertaken.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by SSridhar »

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/ReviewVayu/status/1 ... 23170?s=20 ---> MoD: New Inventions by DRDO
Don't know why SAAW's date is 2023. I thought it was ready for induction by end-2019.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Aditya_V »

The only reason I can think of is limitation of funds deciding which programs get higher priority, most of our Budget has been blown on past imports.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by lakshmanM »

There are two SAAW variants. The INS-GPS guided variant has been accepted for induction. The EO-guided SAAW is still under development
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by kit »

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 34179?s=20 ---> Israel's IAI successfully tests 150 km ranged Barak-8 ER missile by carrying out a successful interception of a high speed ballistic missile with the weapon system.
By way of comparison before anyone says we dont need S400 !

S-400 missile system uses four new missile types in addition to the missiles of the S-300PMU system.

1] 48N6DM (48N6E3). It is an improved variant of the 48N6M with a powerful propulsion system. The missile can destroy airborne targets within the range of 250km.

2]40N6 missile of the S-400 has a claimed range of 400km and uses active radar homing to intercept air targets at great distances. It can be launched against AWACS, J-STARS, EA-6B support jammers and other high-value targets.

3&4]S-400 Triumph also launches 9M96E and 9M96E2 medium range ground-to-air missiles. Designed for direct impact, the missiles can strike fast moving targets such as fighter aircraft with a high hit probability. The maximum range of the 9M96 missile is 120km.

https://www.army-technology.com/project ... le-system/
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by kit »

and of course as the Americans view it
https://www.army-technology.com/news/us ... -400-deal/
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by ramana »

lakshmanM wrote:There are two SAAW variants. The INS-GPS guided variant has been accepted for induction. The EO-guided SAAW is still under development

Correct. The reason is to make the el-op seeker inexpensively.
Then a lot of weapons become feasible.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by ramana »

Sumeet wrote:Can we not swap out Rafael's seeker from Barak-8 and replace with Akash NG or Astra Mk2/SFDR in due course of time ?

What is the use case you are thinking?

In my view, a hot IR target incoming would be a use case for NG seeker on Barak-8.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by ramana »

kit wrote:and of course as the Americans view it
https://www.army-technology.com/news/us ... -400-deal/
I think we should let the US do what it wants.

India needs to defend against China.
S 400 is a good weapon for that.
And the same time US can pound sand in QUAD 2.0.

Quite #Baizuo policy even in Pentagon.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by kit »

ramana wrote:
kit wrote:and of course as the Americans view it
https://www.army-technology.com/news/us ... -400-deal/
I think we should let the US do what it wants.

India needs to defend against China.
S 400 is a good weapon for that.
And the same time US can pound sand in QUAD 2.0.

Quite #Baizuo policy even in Pentagon.
yes, quite agree. No strategic weapons deals with the US. The Russians and the French to some extent
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by John »

kit wrote:By way of comparison before anyone says we dont need S400 !
On paper it is quite capable but I would take any Russian propaganda with grain of salt especially given how horrible Pantsyr and S-300 have performed in Libya, Syria and Armenia. Should always seek domestic alternative before we decide to try billions on foreign product only to find out the hard way it is a dud won't be the first time.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Prem Kumar »

I think this realization is slowly percolating into both DRDO & the Armed Forces, viz. the imported stuff is more marketing than performance, be it Russian or Western or Israeli. A lot of our homegrown systems have started outperforming the foreign stuff we used to drool about, based on the brochures.

The scales are slowly falling off people's eyes.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Karan M »

The DRDO always claimed this. Now the GOI is realising it too.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by srai »

By the time DRDO product is ready for induction, it is more like Mk.3 variant. Numerous user trials in all sorts of Indian environments, seasons and conditions stretched out over many years each ending with enhancement requests, the end product that is finally accepted by the Indian armed forces is iteratively very mature — brochuritist ++
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by nachiket »

They could have very well renamed the system. It bears little resemblance to the original Akash. The missile is completely different. The Radar is new. I am not even sure if the Ku band seeker on the NG is the same as the one on the 1S.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by lakshmanM »

Rakesh wrote:Akash NG
https://firestarter.substack.com/p/akash-ng
21 March 2021
The report about an Akash-NG test on 23rd in Jaisalmer is manure. The army released the video of the test, it may have been an Akash-1S (if not plain old baseline version)
https://twitter.com/SWComd_IA/status/13 ... 90565?s=20
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