Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Cain Marko »

Vips wrote:Most of the long range cruise missile strikes (>1200/1500 Kms) have been by the Americans mostly in the Gulf where the enemy air defenses had been taken out. It would be interesting to see how many subsonic cruise missiles in a lo-lo flight profile would survive and hit targets against an enemy whose air force/air defence is not decimated or is functional.
Precisely. such attacks may work against piddly middle eastern positions. But we have no idea on how they might fare vs. layered ADS backed by AEW ala China. Swarm attacks by CM I don't think will work. AESA radars backed by fast loading SAMs can handle lots of targets simlutaneously. Swarm attacks by AI drones seem to be the way forward.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Prem Kumar »

Defense against CMs have their own complexity: stealth, maneuvering targets, terrain hugging etc. Ground based radars may not even detect them at adequate ranges, especially in mountainous regions. Secondly, CMs aren't exactly slow - Nirbhay can fly 0.7 - 0.9 Mach. If it gets picked up late, it might be too late.

Secondly, air defense missiles must also be optimized to take out such low level targets. Akash & QRSAM have that pedigree.

Thirdly, ITCM/Nirbhay was designed from the get-go as a cross between a CM and a loitering munition. It has a throttleable engine so that it can loiter around the target for some time.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by jamwal »

Putting a missile in a canister makes it new? What's new about Agni-P?
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by rsingh »

59 % less wt. New propulsion what else you want? Cho Manter feature?
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Pratyush »

Vips wrote:
I have seen footage of testing of cruise missiles where they are followed by air force jets taking photos and filming it so question for the Gurus:
What are the chances a subsonic cruise missile will remain undetected and not be shot down through its flight of 1500 Miles or 1500 Kilometers.

If the PRC is covering 100% of its land mass with radars capable of detecting low flying objects. Then it will never make through. But the PRC cannot afford to do so. If the SIGINT capacity of India is okay then it is quite possible that the way point navigation capacity will allow the user to program a path that bypasses any enemy radar sites. Negating his ability to intercept the missile until it's too late.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by jamwal »

rsingh wrote:59 % less wt. New propulsion what else you want? Cho Manter feature?
Asked the question because none of news I read mentioned anything. go cho manter yourself.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by SSridhar »

Agni-P: India successfully test-fires new generation of nuke missile - ToI
India on Monday successfully test-fired a new missile in the Agni series known as Agni-P off the coast of Odisha at 10:55am, DRDO officials said.
As per DRDO, Agni-Prime is a new generation advanced variant of the Agni class of missiles.

"Being a canister-launched missile, Agni-P will give the armed forces the requisite operational flexibility to swiftly transport and fire it from anywhere they want. The test at 10.55 met all mission objectives with a high level of accuracy," the DRDO said in a statement.

During the test-fire, various telemetry and radar stations were positioned along the eastern coast tracked and monitored the missile, the DRDO said.
"The missile has followed textbook trajectory, meeting all mission objectives with a high level of accuracy,” the DRDO said in a statement.

The missile, which has a range between 1000km to 2000km, is short and light in comparison with other missiles in this class. New technologies have been incorporated in the new missile, DRDO officials said.

On June 24 and June 25, DRDO had also successfully test-fired an extended range version of indigenously developed Pinaka rocket from MBRL at ITR Chandipur off the coast of Odisha.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by mody »

Agni Prime is solid fueled, dual stage, all composite missile. The solid propellant is new, might be NEPE based. Both the stages have composite rocket motors. Canister based missile. Maybe more than 1 will be carried on a single 6x6 truck platform. Payload weight and exact total weight is not yet specified, but a range between 1,000 to 2,000 Kms, will cover all of Pak, Tibet and Xinjiang.

I have said this before, and will repeat it. Agni-prime will replace Agni-1 and Agni-II. Agni-IV is already the PRIME successor of Agni-II. Agni-III will also be replaced by Agni-V. Agni-IV and Agni-V will also transition to all composite rocket motors in the future. I don't know, if all the stages of Agni-IV are already composite or not. Agni-II and Agni-III will be phased out, when requisite numbers of other missiles available.

Shaurya might be a silo based missile and I would hazard a guess that a few might have already been deployed in secret silos.
Last edited by mody on 28 Jun 2021 14:55, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by rsingh »

jamwal wrote:
rsingh wrote:59 % less wt. New propulsion what else you want? Cho Manter feature?
Asked the question because none of news I read mentioned anything. go cho manter yourself.
Oh take it easy man .I was in light mood :mrgreen: No ofence intended.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Pratyush »

The nomenclature of Agni prime is quite confusing to me. Initially the missile known as Agni 4 was renamed as Agni prime. I thought this is ok.

Now I am seeing a picture that looks like a shortened version of the Agni 5 and described as Agni prime.

Very very confusing, I tell you.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Lisa »

Pratyush wrote:The nomenclature of Agni prime is quite confusing to me. Initially the missile known as Agni 4 was renamed as Agni prime. I thought this is ok.

Now I am seeing a picture that looks like a shortened version of the Agni 5 and described as Agni prime.

Very very confusing, I tell you.
I think that this confusion is done on purpose. We follow these matter regularly and we appear to be confused. dragonwhall and gorhawalla have no hope. :D
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by srai »

Pratyush wrote:The nomenclature of Agni prime is quite confusing to me. Initially the missile known as Agni 4 was renamed as Agni prime. I thought this is ok.

Now I am seeing a picture that looks like a shortened version of the Agni 5 and described as Agni prime.

Very very confusing, I tell you.
Agni-V - 3 stages
Agni III - 2 stages
Agni P - 1 stage?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by brar_w »

Pratyush wrote:
Vips wrote:
I have seen footage of testing of cruise missiles where they are followed by air force jets taking photos and filming it so question for the Gurus:
What are the chances a subsonic cruise missile will remain undetected and not be shot down through its flight of 1500 Miles or 1500 Kilometers.

If the PRC is covering 100% of its land mass with radars capable of detecting low flying objects. Then it will never make through. But the PRC cannot afford to do so. If the SIGINT capacity of India is okay then it is quite possible that the way point navigation capacity will allow the user to program a path that bypasses any enemy radar sites. Negating his ability to intercept the missile until it's too late.
It is very difficult to reliably counter and intercept low flying cruise missiles during the cruise phase of their flight. Though you do have some ability to mission plan the route, even if you didn't it would still be difficult given the sensor challenge of detecting low flying objects, placing them in weapons quality tracks and lining them up for area weapons to target (you can't pepper the entire countryside with point defense systems). If you look at the US Army's IBCS, that is the problem it is trying to solve (maintaining fire-control level track custody of a low flying target as it zips in and out of various coverage areas and disparate sensors and air defense systems). Even they aren't there yet and will likely need many years to refine this so you can expect China to be farther behind. Protecting targets is easier as point defenses can be set up and high density coverage can provide some good protection. But then you have the advantage of choosing the time and place to attack, and also have an option of mixing these relatively lower cost subsonic weapons with some form of SEAD to provide additional challenge to the point defense systems. Having a large inventory of relatively cheaper subsonic CM's has a fairly significant cost imposition on your opponent. Despite being close to fielding the 3000 km ranged hypersonic IR-CPS, the Block V TLAM is still considered one of the most important weapon projects in the US Navy because it is this weapon that will deliver volume fires from stand off distances. That has its own advantages in forcing your opponent into a defensive mindset as it must be able to counter it.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Nikhil_Naya »

The missile was 'cold launched', from a 'Tube canister'. The approximate height of the missile is close to 12M (Compare launch location with length of trailer)...rings a bell?
For anyone who wants to know what is 'different' and why this is so important - I think this is enough!. Range is 1000-2000 kms (interesting that the range is being given as a range and not a specific number).

As for cruise missiles
It is tough to identify and shoot down a CM - esp if it is in the cruise phase in a 'Lo-lo' profile. Imagine a CM snaking through the mountains or riding treetop height. During the Gulf War - it was over a 'flat topography' that they launched these and almost every one found a target. Yes an aircraft can shoot it down but imagine - first you have to 'know' that its coming, then when you know its coming - you calculate the point of intercept (by a missile or aircraft which is on CAP maybe). The Missile has to be able to differentiate from 'ground clutter' - CM's can fly literally at tree top height. IF (capital) an aircraft is on CAP nearby and is vectored to the missile in time - maybe it can shoot it down. Maybe - because you have a small target (tail) - aircraft will have to use guns most probably and damage the 'frontal' part of the missile or it can still hit the ground and do considerable damage to whatever is on the ground.
Interestingly for a radar to be able to know the point of intercept it will need to know heading, azimuth, speed etc - which is difficult considering that the radar will have a tough time even locking on to this low flying aircraft.
After that, there comes some real nice manouvering like a curve or loiter making it tough to predict the position accurately and by that time - Blam!
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by jamwal »

rsingh wrote:
jamwal wrote: Asked the question because none of news I read mentioned anything. go cho manter yourself.
Oh take it easy man .I was in light mood :mrgreen: No ofence intended.
My apologies
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by brar_w »

Nikhil_Naya wrote:
As for cruise missiles
It is tough to identify and shoot down a CM - esp if it is in the cruise phase in a 'Lo-lo' profile. Imagine a CM snaking through the mountains or riding treetop height. During the Gulf War - it was over a 'flat topography' that they launched these and almost every one found a target. Yes an aircraft can shoot it down but imagine - first you have to 'know' that its coming, then when you know its coming - you calculate the point of intercept (by a missile or aircraft which is on CAP maybe). The Missile has to be able to differentiate from 'ground clutter' - CM's can fly literally at tree top height. IF (capital) an aircraft is on CAP nearby and is vectored to the missile in time - maybe it can shoot it down. Maybe - because you have a small target (tail) - aircraft will have to use guns most probably and damage the 'frontal' part of the missile or it can still hit the ground and do considerable damage to whatever is on the ground.
Interestingly for a radar to be able to know the point of intercept it will need to know heading, azimuth, speed etc - which is difficult considering that the radar will have a tough time even locking on to this low flying aircraft.
After that, there comes some real nice manouvering like a curve or loiter making it tough to predict the position accurately and by that time - Blam!
Nicely stated. For years, the most effective wide-scale counter strategy to subsonic cruise missiles has been to A) deny them the targeting by going after PNT degradation and other soft kill measures, and B ) C-ISR and denying them the ability to target. Large scale employment of subsonic cruise missiles against a peer opponent requires one of two things - i) an enemy who has grossly misjudged CM effectiveness and thus not rid itself of the relatively unprotected fixed targets, and ii) Excellent long range ISR that has the ability to overcome the CISR systems and tactics of your opponent. Getting shot out of the sky en masse (while cruising) should be the least of the worries. Running out of good quality targets is a more pressing issue which requires investments in ISR.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Nikhil_Naya »

brar_w wrote:
Nikhil_Naya wrote:
Nicely stated. For years, the most effective wide-scale counter strategy to subsonic cruise missiles has been to A) deny them the targeting by going after PNT degradation and other soft kill measures, and B ) C-ISR and denying them the ability to target. Large scale employment of subsonic cruise missiles against a peer opponent requires one of two things - i) an enemy who has grossly misjudged CM effectiveness and thus not rid itself of the relatively unprotected fixed targets, and ii) Excellent long range ISR that has the ability to overcome the CISR systems and tactics of your opponent. Getting shot out of the sky en masse (while cruising) should be the least of the worries. Running out of good quality targets is a more pressing issue which requires investments in ISR.
Correct and that brings us to our key investments in space (ISR series/ GSAT's) (sorry IRS series)...1M resolution imaging of almost the entire world almost all the time! That gives the good quality targets.
Also CM's need not just be targetting airports/ military sites. A well placed CM strike taking out a transport node (rail/ road) or a Dam is enough to get a 'mobility kill'. Its like a tank - you really don't need to destroy the tank a mobility kill is sometimes all that is needed to make it a sitting duck for the next strike. No country will be able to protect 'all' such assets and there will be a priority matrix that will be in place. The front line will be well protected with overlapping systems but once the missile crosses that net!
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Prem Kumar »

Nikhil_Naya wrote:The missile was 'cold launched', from a 'Tube canister'. The approximate height of the missile is close to 12M (Compare launch location with length of trailer)...rings a bell?
For anyone who wants to know what is 'different' and why this is so important - I think this is enough!. Range is 1000-2000 kms (interesting that the range is being given as a range and not a specific number)
Not sure I understand the significance (other than the fact that this looks like a missile of a new class altogether).

K4 is 12m long. Are you suggesting sub-launch?

For comparison, K4 is 2-staged, 12m long, 1.3m dia missile that's also canisterized - but - has a 3000 Km range. As Sandeep Unnithan once wrote, the K-series was a separate program. Arguably more advanced than the Agni series in terms of compactness and throwaway weight

The range might indicate that different payloads are to be employed.

Not sure if it can have any conventional role, considering that the Agni series is our deterrent. Shourya might be a better fit, if it ever gets inducted.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by SSridhar »

Agni-II Prime was a precursor to Agni-IV. It probably tested some of the enhancements that then moved to Agni-IV. Then, Prime has been dormant ever since. May be they have moved some of the other technologies incorporated into Agni-IV like FRPcasings, better stage separation, MEMS, better energy propellants etc to Agni-II Prime. Agni-I came later than Agni-II to fill the 1000 Km range gap and the range for Agni-II Prime (1000 to 2000 Kms) indicates that this will replace Agni-I and Agni-II.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Kakarat »

We should also remember DRDO has the habit of understating the range of its missiles
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Indranil »

1. My initial speculations for Agni P.

Length: 15.7 mtrs
Diameter: 1.4 mtrs
Fuel loading: 9 tons (1st stage) + 2.2 tons (2nd stage)
Payload: 500-1000kgs
Total weight of the missile: 13.2 tons
Max. Range with 1000 kgs: ~2000 kms.

2. If the first stage of Agni-P has composite casing (looks like it), then this is the largest built by India.

3. I am now super sure that K4 with a conical or biconical nose is either operational or will get operational pretty soon. So, it is going to be Pranash, Pralay, Shaurya, Agni-P, K4-land version, Agni-V. All canisterized and road mobile.

4. Many have the question is this the equivalent of DF-21D (ASBM). My take: I don't know. There are 3 requirements:
- We need to track ships at >1500 kms. Over the horizon radars are not accurate enough. Sending our own assets (submarines/ships) is risky. I don't know if we have the satellites
- ​Need a radar for final homing
- MaRV

India is going the more tried and tested air launched ballistic missile for anti ship role: Rudra- M1, M2 and M3. They have progressively larger payload and range. Carried on Su-30s, that should give pretty long ranges when operated from A&N.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by basant »

Indranil wrote:India is going the more tried and tested air launched ballistic missile for anti ship role: Rudra- M1, M2 and M3. They have progressively larger payload and range. Carried on Su-30s, that should give pretty long ranges when operated from A&N.
And SMART!
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Indranil »

Oh yeah!!!

By the way, Agni P is as TFTA as they come! All composite motors, electro mechanical actuators, SoA guidance.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by basant »

SoA or SoC? Agni P is indeed a pleasant surprise. :)
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Indranil »

Updated estimates:

Diameter: ~1.25 mtrs
Height: ~10 mtrs
Fuel weight: ~8.75 tons
Total weight: ~11 tons
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Roop »

basant wrote:SoA or SoC? Agni P is indeed a pleasant surprise. :)
SoA? SoC? :?:

इसका क्या मतलब, भाई साहब?
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by basant »

SoC is system on a chip. See here for some information: https://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/techn ... 568036.ece
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Rakesh »

I believe SOC stands for System on board Chip / Computer.

I have no clue what SOA stands for.

Added Later: Basant, you beat me to it :)
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Rakesh »

basant wrote:SoC is system on a chip. See here for some information: https://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/techn ... 568036.ece
from the above article....that is HUGE! Great achievement by Indian scientists. Kudos to them.
The SoC will bring down the cost by 50 per cent because it integrates various components,” he said.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Rakesh »

Lisa wrote:
Pratyush wrote:The nomenclature of Agni prime is quite confusing to me. Initially the missile known as Agni 4 was renamed as Agni prime. I thought this is ok.

Now I am seeing a picture that looks like a shortened version of the Agni 5 and described as Agni prime.

Very very confusing, I tell you.
I think that this confusion is done on purpose. We follow these matter regularly and we appear to be confused. dragonwhall and gorhawalla have no hope. :D
Amen to that!
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Cain Marko »

As for cruise missiles
It is tough to identify and shoot down a CM - esp if it is in the cruise phase in a 'Lo-lo' profile. Imagine a CM snaking through the mountains or riding treetop height. During the Gulf War - it was over a 'flat topography' that they launched these and almost every one found a target. Yes an aircraft can shoot it down but imagine - first you have to 'know' that its coming, then when you know its coming - you calculate the point of intercept (by a missile or aircraft which is on CAP maybe). The Missile has to be able to differentiate from 'ground clutter' - CM's can fly literally at tree top height. IF (capital) an aircraft is on CAP nearby and is vectored to the missile in time - maybe it can shoot it down. Maybe - because you have a small target (tail) - aircraft will have to use guns most probably and damage the 'frontal' part of the missile or it can still hit the ground and do considerable damage to whatever is on the ground.
Interestingly for a radar to be able to know the point of intercept it will need to know heading, azimuth, speed etc - which is difficult considering that the radar will have a tough time even locking on to this low flying aircraft.
After that, there comes some real nice manouvering like a curve or loiter making it tough to predict the position accurately and by that time - Blam!
Nikhil_Naya wrote: Correct and that brings us to our key investments in space (ISR series/ GSAT's) (sorry IRS series)...1M resolution imaging of almost the entire world almost all the time! That gives the good quality targets.
Also CM's need not just be targetting airports/ military sites. A well placed CM strike taking out a transport node (rail/ road) or a Dam is enough to get a 'mobility kill'. Its like a tank - you really don't need to destroy the tank a mobility kill is sometimes all that is needed to make it a sitting duck for the next strike. No country will be able to protect 'all' such assets and there will be a priority matrix that will be in place. The front line will be well protected with overlapping systems but once the missile crosses that net!
[/quote]
All of this raises certain questions:
1. What happens to CM speed if it has to fly super low altitude? I'm assuming ranges and speeds are given at optimum altitudes but am not sure. In general speed and range degrade at lower altitudes?
2. What is the terrain like between India and major Chinese installations, say kashghar? Hotan? over the tibetan plateau, there should be plenty of unrestricted LOS for ADS to get into action? AFter all, ship-based systems are designed to tackle low fliers at low ranges (35-40km), right?
3. How extensive are Chinese ISR assets? Seems to me they are loaded with sats, UAVs, AEW, you name it. And layered ADS. HVA will be protected. They just moved an S400 to Tibet recently.

All in all, it seems to me that closer to the border, say within 500km, the Brahmos remains India's best shot at least initially to get a breakthrough. Nirbhay's greatest damage will probably be in Central theater, and possibly eastern although at that point, you are looking at extreme ranges. Perhaps enemy forward formations might be another target instead of using air assets or bmos types - but with these, mobility could be an issue?.

This is not to say that India could do without ITCM/Nirbhay - no, it is an absolute must, and a great addition to the quiver. I'm just thinking about where and how these might be used. It doesn't help that most of US "shekinaw" stuff has been used against decrepit ME states with little to no AD assets. India doesn't have that luxury.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by basant »

Rakesh wrote:I believe SOC stands for System on board Chip / Computer.

I have no clue what SOA stands for.

Added Later: Basant, you beat me to it :)
Happy to help in anyway, Admiral. In computer science, SOA is used for 'Software Oriented Architecture'. Not aware of it, or anything else abbreviated as 'SoA', related to our missile programme. Given that it came from IR, I was wondering.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by hnair »

Peeples! Search for “SoA missile guidance”

SoA link

( bleeding edge stuff)
The Draper Laboratory is currently in the process of developing the Silicon Oscillating Accelerometer SOA a MEMS-based sensor that has the potential to achieve the ppmug performance stability required of the strategic missile application. The Microelectromechanical System MEMS technology is inherently low cost and offers a rapidly expanding commercial business base to leverage and sustain accelerometer production and deployment in next generation guidance systems.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Indranil »

I just meant state of art.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by disha »

Indranil wrote:I just meant state of art.
The discussion on SOA leading to MEMS research must go to humour thread.

:rotfl:
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by RajaRudra »

Good News! :D

I am really getting optimistic, that I am waiting for a day, In which media and us coming to know of the existence of an advanced missile(..any device) very late. And would have got used extensively and in service good numbers before we came across the name itself.

May be a new technology, in which there should not be any parallel/alternative system available.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by jamwal »

SOC is an old technology and even that article is from 2014. Now there are whole computing systems available on a chip and handheld boards.

BTW, is there anything going on for Short Ranged Ballistic Missiles? Prithvi is on its way out and there is no replacement yet. Brahmos with its tiny warhead is not an ideal replacement for 1000 kg warhead of Prithvis. Even Prahaar in large numbers would be nice.

On a related note, Shukla in his latest article says that Prithvis had modest accuracy while every other source says that it highly accurate.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by basant »

IIRC, Prithvis were supposed to have an accuracy of 1% of CEP. But that was long ago, though I doubt if legacy Prithvis were upgraded. The later variants had improved accuracy, in the range of 25 to 50m.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Indranil »

Agni V had a CEP of <100 mtrs. Expect Agni Prime's CEP to be ~30m.

Meanwhile, RCI's AESA-based KU-seeker for future Astra variants are entering production. TEnder for production of 16 units out.

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dkhare
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by dkhare »

On the Agni 1 Prime, does anyone see fins or spikes for a maneuverable reentry vehicle?

Great news on the Ku band AESA seeker for the Astra! Mk1 or Mk2?
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