Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

nam · Post by **nam** » 18 Sep 2019 19:02

The fascinating part for me with Astra trials is Su30 could carry R77 & Astra at the same time. Two different types of BVR fired at the same target, would provide an interesting problem for the target.

depending on your jammer capability, it can jam only one BVR frequency range at a give time..

nam · Post by **nam** » 18 Sep 2019 19:04

And the seeker is cheaper by 50% compared to imports.. we could throw a lot of Astra at the Paks in the next round..

I am expecting khan style photo op of Su30 flying with 24 Astra..

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 18 Sep 2019 22:07

ANI @ANI
DRDO Sources: Third firing of Astra Beyond Visual Range Air to Air Missile was successfully carried out by Air Force and Defence Research and Development Organisation today. The missile hit the live aerial target near Odisha at maximum range of approximately 90 km.

One more test today?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 Sep 2019 22:40

Yes. It says third test. Most likely they are proofing the production batch and confirming they match the development test vehicles.

Three for a batch is pretty good.
Does anyone recall the start date of Astra production run in Kerala?
It was inaugurated by Jaitley.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 18 Sep 2019 22:48

ramana wrote:Yes. It says third test. Most likely they are proofing the production batch and confirming they match the development test vehicles.

Three for a batch is pretty good.
Does anyone recall the start date of Astra production run in Kerala?
It was inaugurated by Jaitley.

This batch was of 50 missiles.

I thought it was BDL Hyderabad. Rather than Kerala.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 18 Sep 2019 23:32

Once the Astra enters service, it will be a viable export option as well. Apparently the UAE had expressed interest in the Astra for its Mirage-2000-9 fighters back in 2018. Must be much cheaper than the MBDA Mica.

link to SP's aviation

The UAE has expressed interest in purchasing India’s indigenous Astra BVRAAM to arm its fleet of Mirage 2000-9 fighter aircraft. India has already integrated the missile on its fleet of Su-30MKI aircraft and work will now take place on integrating the Astra on IAF’s Mirage 2000 fighters. The prospective sale is one of several defence deals New Delhi is chasing in the region, with ongoing effort to manufacture arms and equipment in a joint venture with Saudi Arabia and Jordan who are also looking Indian-developed defence equipment.

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 18 Sep 2019 23:47

^ I'd be very surprised if any defense sale materializes to Middle Eastern countries. They're a stronghold of US, UK, France and they don't really make decisions based on cost. I hope we churn Astras out like sausages for IAF's needs.

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 18 Sep 2019 23:48

^^would it be safe to export to uae???

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 19 Sep 2019 01:16

tsarkar wrote:
JayS wrote:I kind of remember vaguely to have read that Astra uses the same pylon as R-77 and hence (together with other factors) its easier to integrate with any jet which already can handle R-77. Can someone confirm is this is correct or wrong..? I am not able to find any reference from google.
https://www.business-standard.com/artic ... 026_1.html
The air launcher, a rail on which the missile hangs and from which it is launched, is a Russian Vympel launcher that is being built in India. It will allow the Astra to be fired from all four of India's current generation fighters - the Su-30MKI, MiG-29, Mirage 2000 and the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft.
This is the APU-73 launcher used for R-73E

Interesting. Which launcher R77 uses then?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 19 Sep 2019 02:49

I am fairly certain the Astra uses the AKU-170E launcher used by the R-77.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 19 Sep 2019 03:34

John wrote:
Raghunathgb wrote:Karan M - So we can probably assume that akash has a no escape zone of 25 kms because of its extremely good propulsion system.
Not sure I follow you Akash Ramjet design (dates back to Sa-6) is bit dated it cannot be throttled and has fairly limited burn time. Russians switched to solid propellant for Sa-11/17 due to that and same goes for Akash NG.

We've been over this before. The burn time is exactly per its specifications. RaghunathB is correct.
The Akash motor/s have a cumulative burn time (lets leave the exact numbers out for now) which exactly matches the exact timing of the quoted range to time. Thats the reason DRDO says all-the-way thrust for the Akash and quotes a high SSKP within the 25km+ envelope. They don't count the rest, i.e. the ballistic range from the unpowered rocket.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 19 Sep 2019 03:46

Sigh. Not such a great bit of news. I was hoping DRDO would work on a XRSAM with radars >> more powerful than the PESA systems on the S-400. The Russians themselves are planning to move to AESA for the S-500. Anyways, I hope we get some select TOT like high-power seekers and missile guidance/propellant tech, with this deal, not just black boxes we assemble locally.

nash wrote:Any possibility of Russian C4I with Indian C4I and missiles such as: Akash-MkII (50-70Km), Barak-8ER (150KM), XRSAM (250Km) and 40N6E (400Km).

India, Turkey to make S-400 with Russia; move could annoy US
https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/world ... 41111.html

In a disclosure that has far-reaching implications, Sergey Chemezov, head of Rostec, told Russian business daily RBC in an interview that India is in talks with Russia to jointly manufacture the very powerful S-400 air defence missile system.

“Yes, we are also discussing localization with India. A lot of equipment for which we sold a license to India: Su-30 aircraft, then a T-90 tank, BrahMos missiles were created with them together, on their territory, together with their scientists,” said Chemezov.

srai · Post by **srai** » 19 Sep 2019 03:51

Vips wrote:70 Kms range trial is good what i am now hoping for is an announcement within the next couple of weeks of the Astra being successfully user trialed for its max range of 110 Kms.

90km in the latest trial

In any case, max ranges are brochure values. You won’t shoot down another modern fighter at those ranges. In the right type of conditions where a large not very maneuverable target is completely unaware and approaching head on at the perfect speed and altitude, you may shoot something of a lumbering giant down at those extreme “theoretical” range limits.

John · Post by **John** » 19 Sep 2019 05:01

Karan M wrote:
John wrote: Not sure I follow you Akash Ramjet design (dates back to Sa-6) is bit dated it cannot be throttled and has fairly limited burn time. Russians switched to solid propellant for Sa-11/17 due to that and same goes for Akash NG.
We've been over this before. The burn time is exactly per its specifications. RaghunathB is correct.
The Akash motor/s have a cumulative burn time (lets leave the exact numbers out for now) which exactly matches the exact timing of the quoted range to time. Thats the reason DRDO says all-the-way thrust for the Akash and quotes a high SSKP within the 25km+ envelope. They don't count the rest, i.e. the ballistic range from the unpowered rocket.

That's true for any missile they quote engagement range when terminal speed allows (around Mach 2-3) it intercept the target (doesn't matter if it's powered or not powered). Akash has low max speed so it's ability to intercept a target when motors shuts off will be rather limited. As I stated before need to ditch the Ramjet and switch to a solid propellant rocket to maximize it's capabilities. IMO it could easily achieve a engagement range of over 70 KM with that switch.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 19 Sep 2019 06:50

ramana wrote:Does anyone recall the start date of Astra production run in Kerala?

Early 2018. The lead integrator is BEL.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 19 Sep 2019 08:14

Nikhil T wrote:^ I'd be very surprised if any defense sale materializes to Middle Eastern countries. They're a stronghold of US, UK, France and they don't really make decisions based on cost. I hope we churn Astras out like sausages for IAF's needs.

IIRC OFB won a large contract to supply 155mm rounds to UAE, so they're definitely opening up to us.
I'd be more worried about French shenanigans on integrating 3rd party missiles thought.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 19 Sep 2019 10:59

Unless it was a false flag operation, we should study the cruise missile and drone attack on Saudi Arabian refinery/oil well to see what lessons can be derived for us. May be, a time bound a new thread to compile the information and analysis?

nits · Post by **nits** » 19 Sep 2019 14:09

That was my initial thoughts when i read this news; what if army of drones attack vital installation - there signature is minimal and missile v/s drone kill ratio is too costly to maintain...

what is the other feasible alternative...

kit · Post by **kit** » 19 Sep 2019 15:34

Karan M wrote:Sigh. Not such a great bit of news. I was hoping DRDO would work on a XRSAM with radars >> more powerful than the PESA systems on the S-400. The Russians themselves are planning to move to AESA for the S-500. Anyways, I hope we get some select TOT like high-power seekers and missile guidance/propellant tech, with this deal, not just black boxes we assemble locally.

nash wrote:Any possibility of Russian C4I with Indian C4I and missiles such as: Akash-MkII (50-70Km), Barak-8ER (150KM), XRSAM (250Km) and 40N6E (400Km).

India, Turkey to make S-400 with Russia; move could annoy US
https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/world ... 41111.html

Isn't the DRDO swordfish a development of the green pine along these lines, they are not purely BMD

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 19 Sep 2019 16:41

John wrote:That's true for any missile they quote engagement range when terminal speed allows (around Mach 2-3) it intercept the target (doesn't matter if it's powered or not powered). Akash has low max speed so it's ability to intercept a target when motors shuts off will be rather limited.

Right, so we agree the range quoted is for the time when the motor is "on", and its SSKp is high during that period.
When it comes to the Akash, for the targets it envisages, i.e. aircraft, air breathers, PGMs, adversary systems are well within its 2-3M envelope, so its speed is hardly low for the targets it needs to hit. A constant energy state helps within that envelope, the missile can pull G easier than a human. Its engagement geometry is plotted beforehand (lead vs lag) to ensure the trajectory is optimized for energy management.
A higher sprint speed could be useful against BM's but there too, high max speed comes with a direct correlation to stresses placed on structure and hence the focus on a trade-off between the two. Try doing both, and the size starts leading you to a system which is far more than a relatively small sized mobile SAM unit.

As I stated before need to ditch the Ramjet and switch to a solid propellant rocket to maximize it's capabilities. IMO it could easily achieve a engagement range of over 70 KM with that switch.

They are not switching for that, but because of the weight and complexity of scaling up the existing ramjet system, they will move to a dual pulse system. Though not as advantageous as an Akash (constant energy state), the 2nd kick in motor should improve Pk to similar levels.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 19 Sep 2019 16:43

kit wrote:Isn't the DRDO swordfish a development of the green pine along these lines, they are not purely BMD

They aren't purely BMD but limited as air surveillance radars too, just check their size. Though the learning experience from them (and mostly Arudhra) are going to show up as those 12x HPRs in development for the AF.

srai · Post by **srai** » 19 Sep 2019 18:13

John wrote:
Raghunathgb wrote:Karan M - So we can probably assume that akash has a no escape zone of 25 kms because of its extremely good propulsion system.
Not sure I follow you Akash Ramjet design (dates back to Sa-6) is bit dated it cannot be throttled and has fairly limited burn time. Russians switched to solid propellant for Sa-11/17 due to that and same goes for Akash NG.

In one of the Aero India presentations, Akash ramjet burn time was shown as 35sec. At 700 m/s, that burn time would come out to be 24.5km. Plus, add few kms for initial booster phase and possibly energy for end coast phase. Comes out to be around 27-30km. This is a 720kg missile with a massive 60kg warhead. Blast radius is really large. Check out minimum range engagement Akash video on YouTube.

As a side note, a typical BVR AAM has a burn time between 8-15sec and carries a 15kg warhead.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 19 Sep 2019 19:42

rohitvats wrote:Unless it was a false flag operation, we should study the cruise missile and drone attack on Saudi Arabian refinery/oil well to see what lessons can be derived for us. May be, a time bound a new thread to compile the information and analysis?

Please start a thread on unconventional attacks on Indian infrastructure.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 19 Sep 2019 19:44

Livefist@livefist
HUGE. IAF &
@DRDO_India
round off tests of Astra air-to-air missile with 5 tests in the last 4 days — with 3 tests in ‘combat config’ with warheads & manoeuvring targets, including one target impact which the IAF says took place at at maximum (100+ km) range. Statement:

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 19 Sep 2019 19:47

Ok. These are user trial phase completion.

I hope they start inducting in the US-30 squadrons immediately.

Raghunathgb · Post by **Raghunathgb** » 19 Sep 2019 19:57

I think DRDO has permanently shut down the argument on Astra range ( or lack of it ) even if it didn't matter much in real time scenarios.

Astra is now officially 100+ km range missile. Hoping for quick induction in large numbers.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 19 Sep 2019 20:04

Gurus, one newbie pooch, aren't certain missile ranges are kept deliberately low or ambiguous such as those of SLBMs. Isn't it the same case with BVR air to air missiles?

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 19 Sep 2019 20:05

Were the lot from pre production run of 50? Does that also establish/proves the production set up?

This one missile can make a huge difference in a future Feb 27 like scenario. Being new, countermeasures would be lacking and that unknown can give us a big edge. Please get it in numbers, and have few variants,- like just a IR version of it (silent, with a mid course correction - should be easier than RF version)...maybe a dual mode in the future.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 19 Sep 2019 20:31

With LRSAM/MRSAM getting established, waiting for the dual pulse motor now common across DRDO platforms to be ported onto the Astra as well. A properly sized one, to give a proper jump in range.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 19 Sep 2019 20:32

Karthik S wrote:Gurus, one newbie pooch, aren't certain missile ranges are kept deliberately low or ambiguous such as those of SLBMs. Isn't it the same case with BVR air to air missiles?

Yes. I'd have preferred ranges to be kept ambiguous but anyhow, IAFs choice to make. They are the users. If they can live with this level of "reveal", then ok.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 19 Sep 2019 20:42

This is the fifth set of trials BTW,

May I remind that apart from the 2015, 2016, 2017 trials, there were intense trials in 2018 as well.

2015 Ground based launches and Air Launches
https://www.jagranjosh.com/current-affa ... 51284580-1

2016
Successful trials in full ops
http://www.newindianexpress.com/states/ ... 48501.html

2017
https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/ne ... 864087.ece
7 successful trials in 2017

A set of seven development trials were successfully conducted between September 11-14 over the Bay of Bengal, off the coast of Chandipur in Odisha. In all the attempts, the missile hit and destroyed the pilotless target aircraft, the Union Ministry of Defence said in a statement.
During the trials, the missions included engagement of target at a very-long range, high manoeuvring target at medium-range and multiple launches of missiles in salvo to engage multiple targets.

2018 (26th September to 3rd October)
http://www.aircosmosinternational.com/i ... als-115649

The trials were described as a combination of complex tests for engagement of unmanned targets in different modes of manoeuvring, off-boresight, at medium and long ranges. The missiles were telemetered for evaluation of online performance of all sub-systems, especially the datalink, RF seeker and proximity fuse for end-game performance.

Sure like to see whether our other imported A2A missiles were tested even half as much by us! We know our baby!

naird · Post by **naird** » 19 Sep 2019 21:12

Karan M wrote:This is the fifth set of trials BTW,

May I remind that apart from the 2015, 2016, 2017 trials, there were intense trials in 2018 as well.
....
Sure like to see whether our other imported A2A missiles were tested even half as much by us! We know our baby!

The only difference being - all the earlier trials were developmental trials while the recent trials are user trials. I am assuming these trials are from the 50 LSP's that were ordered !

naird · Post by **naird** » 19 Sep 2019 21:14

Karan M wrote:
Karthik S wrote:Gurus, one newbie pooch, aren't certain missile ranges are kept deliberately low or ambiguous such as those of SLBMs. Isn't it the same case with BVR air to air missiles?
Yes. I'd have preferred ranges to be kept ambiguous but anyhow, IAFs choice to make. They are the users. If they can live with this level of "reveal", then ok.

I guess we really dont know if 100 KM is low ! It may very well have more range . With 100 KM , we are officially in Amraam C5 category.

nam · Post by **nam** » 19 Sep 2019 21:52

DRDO if you are reading this, I dont know how you do it, we want the same smokeless pretty flame on SFDR.

Not that ugly smoky thing like on Meteor. We want some TFTAness on our BVRs and the need to look good on youtube

If we managed to get Astra on Mirage it is possible to have some sales to the Arabs, as they would be interested to use it increasing their training fires in cost effective way.

I think it is good to declare 100km+. It will automatically cause a standoff region with PAF trying to stay back and limiting effectiveness of aim120

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 19 Sep 2019 21:53

Karan M - You saw my message?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 Sep 2019 05:53

Yes, mailed you.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 20 Sep 2019 12:56

JayS wrote:Interesting. Which launcher R77 uses then?

Karan M wrote:I am fairly certain the Astra uses the AKU-170E launcher used by the R-77.

https://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Gall ... VV_AEE.jpg

This is the AKU-170E launcher for R-77. APU-73 launcher is right next on the wingtip.

https://fighterjetsworld.com/wp-content ... 8944_n.jpg

This is Astra on APU-73 and its unlike the AKU-170E. Another APU-73 is right next on the wingtip.

Another view of Astra on APU-73
https://www.defenseworld.net/uploads//n ... 525152.jpg

R-73E on APU-73 for reference
http://roe.ru/upload/resize_cache/ibloc ... 51a05e.jpg

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 20 Sep 2019 13:04

Does that mean, that as long as the mission computer of the Aircraft can communicate via the APU-73 launcher to the missile it is compatible with the Astra. So then, LCA Tejas, MIg-29, M-2000 and possibly even Mig 21 Bision can be integrated with Astra relatively quickly?

srai · Post by **srai** » 20 Sep 2019 14:24

Aditya_V wrote:Does that mean, that as long as the mission computer of the Aircraft can communicate via the APU-73 launcher to the missile it is compatible with the Astra. So then, LCA Tejas, MIg-29, M-2000 and possibly even Mig 21 Bision can be integrated with Astra relatively quickly?

^^^
Weapon integration is a time consuming exercise. It’s a marriage of many components like pylon interface, radars, avionics and computers, along with aerodynamics of carriage, flight envelopes, firing test points, etc. It takes months of planning and simulations to conduct one test point.

Easily 3-to-5-year effort per platform.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 20 Sep 2019 16:20

^^That's what I had in my mind when I asked the question.

I don't think bison will see Astra now. They are due for retirement in near future and we have good stock of Ruski missiles now. Not worth the efforts.