Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

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fanne
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by fanne »

the other rumor is that the missile is itself 20% big - operative word rumor
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by John »

:
nachiket wrote:
Prem Kumar wrote:Other than the NOTAM and the intentionally vague official press release, is there any confirmation that the new Brahmos version is in the 700-800 Km range?

It seems like some major changes were introduced because the Rooskies also witnessed the test.

If its indeed 700+ Km, how did they pack this much additional range in the same missile dimensions?
Well the P-800 Oniks which it is based on can fly 600km. The export version Yakhont is limited to 300km. So the airframe is definitely capable of longer ranges but only in certain flight profiles and when it is not artificially limited to 300km. They must have tried out some flight profile optimizations here.
The max range quoted for basic Oniks version is 500 km it is mainly by altering the fight path and reducing terminal manuveurs (which makes it easier to shoot down), the upgrade to 500 km was tested in 2018.

However Oniks has also been updated with new booster and other changes to increase range to 700 km (likely without sacrifices listed above) same upgrades are also expected on Brahmos. I believe this is the advanced version tested from Visakhapatnam ddg and also in most recent test as well.

Or it could be that Visakhapatnam test was 500 km version let's called it extended variant and most recent test is 700km variant "advanced variant".
fanne wrote:the other rumor is that the missile is itself 20% big - operative word rumor
I highly doubt it as it would not fit any launcher if that is the case.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by fanne »

and it is not fired currently from any known launcher
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by John »

fanne wrote:and it is not fired currently from any known launcher
Not sure I follow you the video has been released it looks exactly like any other launch and it is using a same sized canister mounted on ground.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Prem Kumar »

If the 700 Km range is true, this is truly a terrifying capability. If you are the enemy, you could be hiding in a cluster of buildings or behind a hillock 700 Km away. The Brahmos will still hit you with pinpoint accuracy. And its so fast, low flying and maneuverable that you have no hope in hell to shoot it down!

Once the electronic orbat is known via ESM equipped P8Is, UAVs etc, the first salvo will take care of S-400 batteries which made the mistake of turning on their radars. I hope we also launch dedicated GeoSats that can do electronic sniffing to map out radar sites on a real-time basis
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by fanne »

Brahmos is great for many reasons -
1. We know it fully and can enhance it
2.It is a cruise missile, not BM so does not cross new clear threshold. It is supersonic, maneuverable and has pin point accuracy - can be used for tactical purposes
3.We can perhaps make it in thousands.
4. Given all that no wonder we are having extended range Brahmos. It can be fired from the plains, over the Himalayas and still hit all PLA nodes that are within 100-150 km of the border. No need to lug these over mountains except for few that will be used against targets 700 km away (Hotan?)
5. Another variant can be deep penetration missile for deep dug in targets (shallow dug in this brahmos is good enough)
6. Another fatter cruise missile with say 800 -1000 kg payload.
7. Maybe yet a 1500 KM range version. (Chengdu?)
8. We have NG for aircrafts
9. Hypersonic for the next decade
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by kit »

I dont think 800 km is max possible range for Brahmos 2 , further variants would be in 1000km + hypersonic missile
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by kit »

Prem Kumar wrote:If the 700 Km range is true, this is truly a terrifying capability. If you are the enemy, you could be hiding in a cluster of buildings or behind a hillock 700 Km away. The Brahmos will still hit you with pinpoint accuracy. And its so fast, low flying and maneuverable that you have no hope in hell to shoot it down!

Once the electronic orbat is known via ESM equipped P8Is, UAVs etc, the first salvo will take care of S-400 batteries which made the mistake of turning on their radars. I hope we also launch dedicated GeoSats that can do electronic sniffing to map out radar sites on a real-time basis
so much for the paki "depth" .. likely the versions can cover most or all of porkiland..surgical strikes in an instant :mrgreen:
Last edited by kit on 21 Jan 2022 20:57, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Rakesh »

kit wrote:so much for the paki "depth" .. likely the versions can cover most or all of porkiland..surgical strikes in an instant :mrgreen:
At the supersonic speed that BrahMos travels at, the physical hurt and the emotional hurt to H&D will be instant indeed!
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Rakesh »

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/DfIlite/status/1484 ... 14894?s=20 ---> Window to test HSTDV will open tomorrow from 22nd to 25th Jan 2022. If they will be in hurry, expect two test or only one for Technolog Demonstration.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by ramana »

Prem Kumar wrote:Other than the NOTAM and the intentionally vague official press release, is there any confirmation that the new Brahmos version is in the 700-800 Km range?

It seems like some major changes were introduced because the Rooskies also witnessed the test.

If its indeed 700+ Km, how did they pack this much additional range in the same missile dimensions?
My guesses:
1. The INS Vishakhapatnam test fire was low level sea skimming role and about 500km
2. The Balasore test is in high low mode. Over 700km is the range.
3. Both have high accuracy
4. The Only way the range can be achieved is by lightening the front end and increasing fuel.
5. High accuracy is from the modified control system stated in the press release. Accuracy goes down with range. So need a more agile system to correct for errors.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by John »

ramana wrote: My guesses:
1. The INS Vishakhapatnam test fire was low level sea skimming role and about 500km
2. The Balasore test is in high low mode. Over 700km is the range.
3. Both have high accuracy
4. The Only way the range can be achieved is by lightening the front end and increasing fuel.
5. High accuracy is from the modified control system stated in the press release. Accuracy goes down with range. So need a more agile system to correct for errors.
It supposedly incorporates the changes done to latest version of Yakhont/Oniks to increase range to 800km which includes a new booster.

https://tass.com/defense/1315847
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by fanne »

My question to the learned gurus - One way to increase Brahmos is to add a larger solid (or liquid) fuel ballistic missile plug. It first goes a long distance on that and then the Brahmos ramjet takes over and lugs itself to the next 300-600 Km. But if you make the ballistic plug big, it also increases speed of the missile (along with range), maybe going beyond the ramjet speed regime to the hypersonic regime. Does that puts a theoretical limit on how big the missile can be made (and hence how long can it go)?
Are there boosters that add distance but not speed?
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by brar_w »

Yes there are various types of propellants and grains that you can use across the boost and sustain profile. The US Navy's Standard missile family uses a dual-thrust (not to be confused with dual stage, or dual pulse) main solid rocket motor that has a boost followed by a sustain profile.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Atmavik »

Do we have a desi equivalent of AT 4 or Carl Gustav ?
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Pratyush »

Atmavik wrote:Do we have a desi equivalent of AT 4 or Carl Gustav ?
No.

But we make Carl Gustav. But I don't think you are asking that.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by srin »

fanne wrote:My question to the learned gurus - One way to increase Brahmos is to add a larger solid (or liquid) fuel ballistic missile plug. It first goes a long distance on that and then the Brahmos ramjet takes over and lugs itself to the next 300-600 Km. But if you make the ballistic plug big, it also increases speed of the missile (along with range), maybe going beyond the ramjet speed regime to the hypersonic regime. Does that puts a theoretical limit on how big the missile can be made (and hence how long can it go)?
Are there boosters that add distance but not speed?
Why is it better to increase range by carrying both fuel and oxidiser (rocket booster or stage) instead of just adding more fuel (for ramjet main stage) ?
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by mody »

Some youtube channels are reporting that the speed of the Brahmos in the latest test was also enhanced to over Mach-3 and almost close to Mach-4 levels, apart from the increase in the range to 700 Kms.

No official word on the range or the speed or other enhancements that were tested though.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Prem Kumar »

Thanks to social media & proliferation of "defense channels", the signal-to-noise ratio has come down. Someone picks up a random tweet by someone else and makes a 5 min video out of it
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Rakesh »

Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/TejForTweet/status/ ... 38432?s=20 ---> Ramjet Propulsion #SFDR #BrahmosNG #AstraMk3
https://twitter.com/DarkCruiser12/statu ... 66880?s=20 --->
I can remember this very well. SFDR is one the most amphibious (ambitious) projects till date.

♦ AESA seeker
♦ Regulator based air flow controller
♦ Two way data link
♦ 70-340km range (literally game changer)
♦ Ramjet sustainer for long range engagement
♦ Ballistic Trajectory

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Atmavik »

Prem Kumar wrote:Thanks to social media & proliferation of "defense channels", the signal-to-noise ratio has come down. Someone picks up a random tweet by someone else and makes a 5 min video out of it
I take those u tube channels with a grain of salt. The good thing is they have a +ve coverage and patriotic in nature. Good for countering DDM.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Roop »

Rakesh wrote:... SFDR is one the most amphibious project till date.
"Amphibious"? I think you mean "ambitious".
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Rakesh »

Roop wrote:
Rakesh wrote:... SFDR is one the most amphibious project till date.
"Amphibious"? I think you mean "ambitious".
Oops :rotfl:

I copied the text of that tweet verbatim and overlooked that error. My fault. Thank you for pointing that out to me Roop.

I have edited my post ----> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7675&p=2531770#p2531707
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by John »

fanne wrote:My question to the learned gurus - One way to increase Brahmos is to add a larger solid (or liquid) fuel ballistic missile plug. It first goes a long distance on that and then the Brahmos ramjet takes over and lugs itself to the next 300-600 Km. But if you make the ballistic plug big, it also increases speed of the missile (along with range), maybe going beyond the ramjet speed regime to the hypersonic regime. Does that puts a theoretical limit on how big the missile can be made (and hence how long can it go)?
Are there boosters that add distance but not speed?
Have a “bigger” booster to simply increase speed won’t allow the missile to go Mach 4+ the ramjet engine efficiency will likely dip greatly at certain speed (most likely its current Mach 3 speed). You need to redo ramjet engine or come up with new liquid propellant, I believe Brahmos-ng is doing that to squeeze so more speed out of design and also make it smaller and wouldn’t be surprised the supposed 1500 km ranged version does the same.

Back on 800 km variant i suspect it is smaller booster with better propellant to achieve the same results as before and there by allowing it to carry fuel more fuel for engine. Perhaps other weight reductions have done as well.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by ramana »

Rakesh, As a school kid there used to be an underwater tail-less rocket for Diwali using potassium Perchlorate, and was awesome to see it go in the canal.
So who knows there could be an amphibious project going on to take on submarines?
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Thakur_B »

srin wrote:
fanne wrote:My question to the learned gurus - One way to increase Brahmos is to add a larger solid (or liquid) fuel ballistic missile plug. It first goes a long distance on that and then the Brahmos ramjet takes over and lugs itself to the next 300-600 Km. But if you make the ballistic plug big, it also increases speed of the missile (along with range), maybe going beyond the ramjet speed regime to the hypersonic regime. Does that puts a theoretical limit on how big the missile can be made (and hence how long can it go)?
Are there boosters that add distance but not speed?
Why is it better to increase range by carrying both fuel and oxidiser (rocket booster or stage) instead of just adding more fuel (for ramjet main stage) ?
Wasn't high energy density fuel proposed for Brahmos?
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Vips »

Today is the last day of NOTAM and no HSTDV test :(
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Pratyush »

Pratyush wrote:MBT LAW is too expensive.

IMHO a better option might be to develop a disposable unguided 6 inch shaped charged warhead. But mated to a quick attachment smart fire control system.

The FCS could be upto 5 lakhs rupees in cost. The rocket it self should be under 50 K.

IIRC, the Israelis have something very similar in 120 mm calibre.


https://senop.fi/product/afcd-ti/

The device I have been asking for has been executed for the Carl Gustav.

I will be happy if this is acquired by the Indian army for the Carl Gustav.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by nachiket »

Rakesh wrote:
Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/TejForTweet/status/ ... 38432?s=20 ---> Ramjet Propulsion #SFDR #BrahmosNG #AstraMk3
https://twitter.com/DarkCruiser12/statu ... 66880?s=20 --->
I can remember this very well. SFDR is one the most amphibious (ambitious) projects till date.

♦ AESA seeker
I have always had a question about AESA seekers for Air-to-Air missiles. Will these seekers necessarily have a gimballed antenna? Keeping in mind that gimballed AESA antennas aren't that common in aircraft radars yet. But a missile which has gone active and is chasing a hard maneuvering target will have to pull lead on it and its nose might be pointing significantly in front of the target than at it. How will it maintain lock without a gimballed antenna? It would have a disadvantage compared to a conventional mechanically steered one.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by nam »

AESA seeker aperture are generally heavier than traditional seeker. So gimballed will make it even heavier.

Our seeker is suppose to have 45 degree scan angle. Plus the data link providing position updates.

One thing we have to remember is that bvr missiles fly with higher G compared to a fighter. So they can twist their head to see blind areas rather quickly if need be..
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by nachiket »

nam wrote: One thing we have to remember is that bvr missiles fly with higher G compared to a fighter. So they can twist their head to see blind areas rather quickly if need be..
Yes even with a conventional seeker the missile will have to turn in from time to time to avoid losing lock on the target but each of the turns will bleed energy which cannot be recovered as the rocket motor will have long since burned out by then. So if a missile with an AESA seeker has to do that more often it is a disadvantage. I have similar doubts about how a fighter with a non-gimballed AESA radar would perform a cranking maneuver after firing a BVR missile. It is an old and simple maneuver to reduce the closing rate with the target (and make his missile fly a longer distance) while maintaining a lock on the target. Obviously I am missing something since people must have already thought about these things long ago. I am just not sure what.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by souravB »

nachiket wrote:Obviously I am missing something since people must have already thought about these things long ago. I am just not sure what.
Prudence tells me that putting a complex sub-system would make the whole system heavier and costly vs the increase in KP would not be worthwhile.
1. Much better would be to fire-off two missiles to increase KP vs cost.
2. Also putting a gimbal would require miniaturization of motor keeping power rating, g-rating well above 30g etc. Reducing aperture size for movement.
3. Range at which missile radar is active may not warrant high FOV since manned fighter has limited ITR (except TVC equipped).
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Prem Kumar »

Good points about the limitations of an AESA seeker on Astra. FOV & Thermal Management seem to be the main challenges. Weight & size should be less, unless a gimballed version is required - somehow I doubt it, given that even Uttam Mk1 & 2 aren't gimballed.

Not sure how much a non-gimballed FOV limitation applies to a BVR missile. Perhaps more so for a WVRAAM, but those tend to be IIR seeker enabled.

Nachiket: isn't cranking done by the firing aircraft, rather than the missile? So, yes: a launching Tejas would benefit from a gimballed Uttam to maintain link with the Astra. But Astra itself wouldn't require it.

The AESA seeker advantages are many: its more jam-proof + has LPI (the target might not even know its being targeted even when the Astra seeker goes active)
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by nachiket »

Prem Kumar wrote: Nachiket: isn't cranking done by the firing aircraft, rather than the missile? So, yes: a launching Tejas would benefit from a gimballed Uttam to maintain link with the Astra. But Astra itself wouldn't require it.
I was talking about the aircraft.
nachiket wrote:...I have similar doubts about how a fighter with a non-gimballed AESA radar would perform a cranking maneuver after firing a BVR missile. It is an old and simple maneuver to reduce the closing rate with the target (and make his missile fly a longer distance) while maintaining a lock on the target.
Prem Kumar wrote: The AESA seeker advantages are many: its more jam-proof + has LPI (the target might not even know its being targeted even when the Astra seeker goes active)
Yes the advantages are unquestionable. I just had this doubt about a possible disadvantage of AESA missile seekers and fighter radars for a while. There must be ways around it. Just trying to find out what they are.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by kit »

Prem Kumar wrote:Good points about the limitations of an AESA seeker on Astra. FOV & Thermal Management seem to be the main challenges. Weight & size should be less, unless a gimballed version is required - somehow I doubt it, given that even Uttam Mk1 & 2 aren't gimballed.

Not sure how much a non-gimballed FOV limitation applies to a BVR missile. Perhaps more so for a WVRAAM, but those tend to be IIR seeker enabled.

Nachiket: isn't cranking done by the firing aircraft, rather than the missile? So, yes: a launching Tejas would benefit from a gimballed Uttam to maintain link with the Astra. But Astra itself wouldn't require it.

The AESA seeker advantages are many: its more jam-proof + has LPI (the target might not even know its being targeted even when the Astra seeker goes active)
I think an option would be to use a dual seeker ; AESA with an uncooled IR seeker ; India has advanced sufficiently in use of sophisticated algorithms for such
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Barath »

https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 350176.ece

Second BrahMos order from Philippines in the pipeline 31 Jan 2022 Hindu

[Philippines Defence Secretary Delfin Lorenzana had stated in December 2019 that the PA was looking to procure two BrahMos missile batteries. This deal was in the works before the Philippines Marines, which is under the Navy, initiated its project but got delayed and was held in abeyance. more at viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3425&p=2532493#p2532493
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Aditya_V »

Land Launched Anti Ship Brahmos and Uran from a Corvette Test by the Navy in A&N Command

https://www.republicworld.com/technolog ... eshow.html
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by ramana »

Uran missile? Russian?
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by nachiket »

ramana wrote:Uran missile? Russian?
From the press release it seems the Brahmos was land based, launched from AN islands. Uran was launched from a corvette, must be Kora class.
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