Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
souravB
BRFite
Posts: 492
Joined: 07 Jun 2018 13:52

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby souravB » 04 Jun 2019 06:44

IR sir, isn't one of the role envisioned for Bramhos NG as A2A AWACS killer?

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66430
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Singha » 04 Jun 2019 08:57

souravB wrote:IR sir, isn't one of the role envisioned for Bramhos NG as A2A AWACS killer?


too clumsy airframe, not enough control surfaces to attack mobile targets. will need new seeker, eccm and warhead.

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7390
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Indranil » 04 Jun 2019 12:27

souravB wrote:IR sir, isn't one of the role envisioned for Bramhos NG as A2A AWACS killer?

Sir!!! Why?!!!!!

Yes, one of the roles of Brahmos NG is that of an AWACS killer. But Brahmos NG has been 5 years away for the past 10 years!

tsarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2687
Joined: 08 May 2006 13:44
Location: mumbai

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby tsarkar » 04 Jun 2019 13:00

souravB wrote:IR sir, isn't one of the role envisioned for Bramhos NG as A2A AWACS killer?

No. The control surfaces impart only enough manoeuvrability to take on ships that is insufficient for aircraft, even if the aircraft in a lumbering AWACS. Plus BrahMos has no ARM seeker. Better option is NGARM or Astra fitted with NGARM seeker.

srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4100
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby srai » 04 Jun 2019 17:56

Size diff between NGARM and Astra Mk.1
Image
Image
Last edited by srai on 04 Jun 2019 18:04, edited 1 time in total.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17890
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 04 Jun 2019 17:59

tsarkar wrote:
souravB wrote:IR sir, isn't one of the role envisioned for Bramhos NG as A2A AWACS killer?

No. The control surfaces impart only enough manoeuvrability to take on ships that is insufficient for aircraft, even if the aircraft in a lumbering AWACS. Plus BrahMos has no ARM seeker. Better option is NGARM or Astra fitted with NGARM seeker.


Wont be perfect but plan def. Exists for anti AWCS role
https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.economic ... 094383.cms

Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 16761
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Rahul M » 04 Jun 2019 22:00

karan, plz check yahoo a/c.

tsarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2687
Joined: 08 May 2006 13:44
Location: mumbai

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby tsarkar » 05 Jun 2019 00:20

Karan, that is wishful thinking on part of the development organisation as it pitched to get approval and more importantly funding for the program.

In the corporate world, such statements are called “thought leadership” with the primary intention of getting funding :D

NGARM would be a much more manoeuvrable and effective missile than BrahMos NG

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17890
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 05 Jun 2019 00:36

LOL! I hope it happens though, we need the capability. Agree about NGARM.

Rahul - done sir.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 52377
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ramana » 05 Jun 2019 02:51

tsarkar wrote:Karan, that is wishful thinking on part of the development organisation as it pitched to get approval and more importantly funding for the program.

In the corporate world, such statements are called “thought leadership” with the primary intention of getting funding :D

NGARM would be a much more manoeuvrable and effective missile than BrahMos NG


Was going to post similar material but got distracted.
This type of inspirational stuff gets quoted out of context and used to deride any progress achieved.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66430
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Singha » 05 Jun 2019 11:36

NGARM should be given a active x-band aam seeker too , because the awacs will detect it coming, shut its radar and change its path. better yet chin mounted IIR as well to counter heavy jamming from the awacs. that should do it.

the awacs is the most aware and ECM equipped foe out there - so a very resilient datalink back to launch plane, IIR, x-band radar and passive home on emission and home on jam plus a RAM coated airframe is best keeping in view long lifetime of ARMs. add in long range and high speed.

this is a formidable set of requirements in propulsion and sensor pkging in the fighter carriage airframe limit. just spray and pray a crude missile to chase away the awacs will open a 15 min window and no more. enough for a balakot type op but not a full on war.

and these capabilities will be very useful against ground based radars that go silent as well , like using IIR to locate based on shapes and heat signature. a radar can go silent but its motors, electronic cabinets and generator trucks will be surely warm.

Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 16761
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Rahul M » 05 Jun 2019 11:52

Karan M wrote:...
Rahul - done sir.

thanks. I will be waiting. :mrgreen:

nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2329
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby nam » 05 Jun 2019 12:09

NGARM already has a active seeker, to track ground radars which go silent.

Most probably mmW.

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10696
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Aditya_V » 05 Jun 2019 12:28

Now the question about the other aspect of this, how do we defend our Phalcons and Netra, Russians have claimed that the r-73 can intercept early gen Amraam and AIM 154 Pheonix, Hopefully, we can use AAM's to coutnern any incoming missiles towards our AWACS.

kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2987
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby kit » 05 Jun 2019 12:42

Aditya_V wrote:Now the question about the other aspect of this, how do we defend our Phalcons and Netra, Russians have claimed that the r-73 can intercept early gen Amraam and AIM 154 Pheonix, Hopefully, we can use AAM's to coutnern any incoming missiles towards our AWACS.


Well good luck with that !

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10696
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Aditya_V » 05 Jun 2019 13:01

Well yes but a Plan has to be put in place, NGARM will be the Sword, we should also have a proper shield from Escort fighters.

Especially as 27 Feb stated, we are reluctant to break ROE's but Pakis have no rules.

JTull
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2601
Joined: 18 Jul 2001 11:31

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby JTull » 05 Jun 2019 16:29

Supersonic cruise missile BrahMos test fired

Supersonic cruise missile BrahMos on Tuesday was test fired from the Integrated Test Range (ITR) at Chandipur in Odisha. The anti-ship version of the missile was launched around noon from the launch complex-3 of the ITR, Defence Research and Development (DRDO) sources said.

Described as the world's fastest supersonic cruise missile with high rate of precision and accuracy, BrahMos can be fired from land, sea and air, defence sources said.

The missile, with a strike range of around 290 km, is a strategic asset for India as it would act as a deterrence against any possible threats from China and Pakistan, they said.

Senior defence officials and scientists from DRDO and BrahMos witnessed the trial.

BrahMos is a joint venture between the DRDO and the NPOM of Russia.

The highly versatile BrahMos has been operationalised in the Indian Army, Indian Navy and Indian Air Force.

BRAHMOS has established itself as a major force multiplier in modern-day complex battlefields with its impeccable land-attack, anti-ship capabilities with multi-role and multi-platform abilities.


ArjunPandit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2432
Joined: 29 Mar 2017 06:37

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ArjunPandit » 05 Jun 2019 16:32

^^such bot launches are not fair to us jingos, we need to be told what block, what algos had been tested. Are there any future plans to have a helicopter for B'mos ;-)

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10696
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Aditya_V » 05 Jun 2019 17:17

Yes we don't if this air launched or Ground launched or ship launched anti ship variant. Brahmos is a good candidate to replace the coastal defence Styx's.

ArjunPandit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2432
Joined: 29 Mar 2017 06:37

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ArjunPandit » 05 Jun 2019 19:45

ENS (is that a paki media channel) reporting the test failed. It was to validate some indigenous components. Not posting the idrw link

ldev
BRFite
Posts: 1581
Joined: 06 Nov 2002 12:31

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ldev » 05 Jun 2019 19:55

ArjunPandit wrote:^^such bot launches are not fair to us jingos, we need to be told what block, what algos had been tested. Are there any future plans to have a helicopter for B'mos ;-)


Don't know how reliable but Sputnik, the Russian site claims it was a ground launched extended range version of 450 kms:

https://sputniknews.com/asia/2019060410 ... e-brahmos/

18:06 04.06.2019(updated 18:08 04.06.2019)

After a brief halt, India has once again commenced testing its weapons systems. On Tuedasy, it was the BrahMos' turn, considered to be world's fastest supersonic cruise missile. The latest BrahMos missile test is part of ongoing user trials for its extended range of around 450 km, with the version of the missile used in the launch having an upgraded guidance system as well.


India and Russia have been seeking to extend the range of the missile further and may test its capability of hitting a target around 500 km. It may be recalled that increasing the missile's range became possible after India's induction into the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR) in 2016.

India's Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has claimed that another version of the missile with a strike range of 800 km has been under development. The missile could be tested within a year.

The 800-km range would be achieved by optimising the cruise performance of the missile's ramjet engine and through the use of composites to reduce missile's weight to allow for an enhanced fuel load. However, the changes will not impact the external dimensions of the missile.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 52377
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ramana » 05 Jun 2019 20:49

Kurup had posted NOTAM notices.

SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 23502
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby SSridhar » 05 Jun 2019 21:00

I don't believe that the range is just extended to 450 Kms. The DRDO announced in February 2017 that a BrahMos missile variant with a strike range of 800 km was under development. In early 2018, news emerged that it could be tested by the end of 2018. The range also depends upon the type of profile hi-lo-hi etc.

ArjunPandit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2432
Joined: 29 Mar 2017 06:37

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ArjunPandit » 05 Jun 2019 21:08

long back there used to be discussion on the range of the missile, with folks claiming 800-1000k range no.s. The question is if that was just a software issue why a test should fail.
Also, just curious of any relation with the b'mos data leakage that happened almost an year back..when a guy was honeytrapped

JTull
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2601
Joined: 18 Jul 2001 11:31

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby JTull » 05 Jun 2019 21:46

Seems the test failed. Missile deviated after just 10kms.

sudeepj
BRFite
Posts: 1605
Joined: 27 Nov 2008 11:25

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby sudeepj » 05 Jun 2019 23:21

JTull wrote:Seems the test failed. Missile deviated after just 10kms.


I take it as good news.. means they were testing something new. :-)

ldev
BRFite
Posts: 1581
Joined: 06 Nov 2002 12:31

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ldev » 06 Jun 2019 08:28

Image

Mounting 1 missile per SU-30 is in-efficient, and in any event it massively degrades the aircraft performance. What is needed is a bomb truck such as this TU-95 modified with 4 external hardpoints each capable of carrying 2 KH101/102 missiles with a range of 5000km. 8 missiles carried externally plus the internal bomb bay can carry an additional smaller 6x KH55 missiles. Those IndIan Navy TU-142s should be fitted with new engines, avionics, external hardpoints and become Brahmos/Nirbhay carrier platforms.

sajaym
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 40
Joined: 04 Feb 2019 09:11

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby sajaym » 06 Jun 2019 11:13

ldev wrote: Those IndIan Navy TU-142s should be fitted with new engines, avionics, external hardpoints and become Brahmos/Nirbhay carrier platforms.


The IN TU-142s are history. But what the IN has today are P-8Is. We need to mount the air-launched brahmos either on the P-8Is or on similar 737 platforms which will now be available dirt cheap thanks to Jet Airways' bankruptcy.

There is a precedent in the IAF where once they experimented with rolling off bombs from the back of an AN-12. Since it is difficult to throw a brahmos through the door of a moving 737 :) , it will be more sensible to fit a similar pylon which they developed for the SU-30 onto a 737. Think about this - we developed a pylon, a firing mechanism and a guidance system to drop a brahmos from an SU-30. So what is stopping us from doing the same from a 737 or an upgraded AN-32?

The AN-32 has the added benefit that in addition to carrying 4 externally it can carry reloads in it's cargo hold and after firing the 1st four, it can land at the nearest runway, reload and takeoff & let off another load. Targeting/guidance data can be passed onto the AN-32 via data link from the nearest fighter or AWACS/AEWS.

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7390
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Indranil » 06 Jun 2019 12:11

It is not as easy as it seems. For Su30s, they developed a pylon which mounts on two tandem hard points. In other words, the aircraft had the capability to carry that load on those two hard points.

Nowhere is the Boeing 737 strong enough to carry a 2.5 ton missile. We should join a dedicated bomber program.

Barath
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 35
Joined: 11 Feb 2019 19:06

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Barath » 06 Jun 2019 12:18

tsarkar wrote:Karan, that is wishful thinking on part of the development organisation as it pitched to get approval and more importantly funding for the program.

In the corporate world, such statements are called “thought leadership” with the primary intention of getting funding :D

NGARM would be a much more manoeuvrable and effective missile than BrahMos NG


Endorse tsarkar. Anything that adds to positive aura will be played up, even if unrealistic.

In reality, an air to air kill has been obtained by dropping a bomb on the other

https://theaviationist.com/2016/02/14/f ... aqi-mi-24/

Thus bombs can be marketed as capable of taking out slow moving airframes ☺️

I'd wager the NG may have a slightly better chance , but it will never be the weapon of choice, only of lack of choice/desperation

The mission profiles ought to be fairly different and lead to different trade off in design..

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10696
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Aditya_V » 06 Jun 2019 12:27

Any confirmation yesterday Brahmos test a failure, not mentioned in many media reports

https://zeenews.india.com/india/supersonic-cruise-missile-brahmos-test-fired-2209123.html

Barath
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 35
Joined: 11 Feb 2019 19:06

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Barath » 06 Jun 2019 12:32

Indranil wrote: We should join a dedicated bomber program.


Indranil ji. Understand your first point (it's not as easy to modify - edit: see also A330MRTT for example of delays in modifying existing airliner.).

Don't understand your second point. What makes a bomber survivable for the long range penetrative high payload mission ?

Do we have access to that tech ? Is it worth it ?

If you want to move discussion to more appropriate thread, I understand..
Last edited by Barath on 07 Jun 2019 09:31, edited 2 times in total.

Karthik S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4758
Joined: 18 Sep 2009 12:12

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karthik S » 06 Jun 2019 13:16

Why TU-142? We can go for TU-160. Supersonic, long range bomb truck. 40+ Tonnes of munitions.

Barath
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 35
Joined: 11 Feb 2019 19:06

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Barath » 06 Jun 2019 13:22

Aditya_V wrote:Any confirmation yesterday Brahmos test a failure, not mentioned in many media reports

https://zeenews.india.com/india/supersonic-cruise-missile-brahmos-test-fired-2209123.html



http://www.newindianexpress.com/states/ ... 86254.html

Not more than what was already mentioned (failure, deviated after 10 km and went into sea, experimental, indian subsystem) here except some unnamed sources claimed it was a success, presumably because they monitored/validated some parameters, also it was land attack. No details..

Barath
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 35
Joined: 11 Feb 2019 19:06

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Barath » 06 Jun 2019 13:33

Karthik S wrote:Why TU-142? We can go for TU-160. Supersonic, long range bomb truck. 40+ Tonnes of munitions.


In a sense, you can think of Tu 160 not as a bomber but as a cruise missile carrier. It carries long range standoff cruise missiles (strategic ones) rather than acting as penetrating strike bomber.

In that sense, you can think of it as a vulnerable but flexible reusable manned first stage platform ☺️

Why not skip the intermediate step ?

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10696
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Aditya_V » 06 Jun 2019 14:45

Well if wishes were courses why not a 737 based Bomber, Awacs, Mid Air refueller, common platform with our LRMP no.

JTull
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2601
Joined: 18 Jul 2001 11:31

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby JTull » 06 Jun 2019 14:55

Aditya_V wrote:Well if wishes were courses why not a 737 based Bomber, Awacs, Mid Air refueller, common platform with our LRMP no.


Why not a fighter? :wink:

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66430
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Singha » 06 Jun 2019 15:21

dale brown has a series of novels where a modified b52 called megafortress does unusual things

https://dalebrown.fandom.com/wiki/Ficti ... own_novels

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66430
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Singha » 06 Jun 2019 15:23

imo a basic but long range airframe like a Bear is fine if the missiles it carries have a long range. the russian kh101 has a 3000km range.
if you pack shorter range missiles, then a ELO platform or atleast a supersonic bird B1 is preferable.

imo we should attempt to buy 16 refurbished b1 bombers followed by 16 new tu160 to complete our air delivered triad.

RKumar
BRFite
Posts: 1049
Joined: 26 Jul 2009 12:29
Location: Evolution is invention, explosion is destruction.

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby RKumar » 06 Jun 2019 16:07

Singha wrote:imo a basic but long range airframe like a Bear is fine if the missiles it carries have a long range. the russian kh101 has a 3000km range.
if you pack shorter range missiles, then a ELO platform or atleast a supersonic bird B1 is preferable.

imo we should attempt to buy 16 refurbished b1 bombers followed by 16 new tu160 to complete our air delivered triad.


We call IAF is a museum, it seems its in our blood even on BRF we are talking about maintaining 2 different bombers B1 and Tu160 :rotfl: ... sure way to go NaPak highway with such executions.


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Dinabandhu Patra, Kakarat, VikramA and 53 guests