Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

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Singha
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Singha » 06 Jun 2019 16:31

Low volume high value items are fine
Like a tissot watch and rolex watch and casio gshock also

We dont want 10 types of rice or atta in the kitchen though like tejas dhruv lch gotta be there in big nos

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby nam » 06 Jun 2019 16:41

It may be cheaper to create a SpaceX style re-usable booster, which carries 6-8 CM to a release height and drops them. Then lands back for the next round..

There will some drop in flexibility, however would be cheaper than maintaining a sqd of big bombers.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby RKumar » 06 Jun 2019 18:15

Singha wrote:Low volume high value items are fine
Like a tissot watch and rolex watch and casio gshock also

We dont want 10 types of rice or atta in the kitchen though like tejas dhruv lch gotta be there in big nos


Sorry sir, break your tissot and rolex every month with a hammer. It will be uber expensive to maintain it.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ldev » 06 Jun 2019 18:42

The reason I mention the TU-142 is that it is effectively the same aircraft as the TU95 bomber. Capable of having additional/strengthened hard points and a massive range, it out-ranges both the TU-160 and the B1. With a un-refueled range of ~12500 kms, it can show up from the South China sea off China's seaboard or from the western Arabian sea towards Pakistan, forcing them to have active air defences facing in all directions. If your missiles have a long enough range, it is in effect a stand-off cruise missile carrier, it need not penetrate dense enemy air-defences. And India has/had 8 of the type and is familiar with operating them. Instead of being quick to mothball them and park them as museum pieces across the country, they should have been kept idling around and tinkered with as the Russians have done to their ageing TU-95 fleet by fitting in new engines, avionics and hardpoints. And in tandem keep increasing Nirbhay's range. With similar dimensions/weight to the air launched Brahmos, the KH-101 has a range of >3000kms. Ultimately long range versions of the Nirbhay must have a similar strike range.

Trying to mount Brahmos/Nirbhay on Boeing 737s will be almost as complex an undertaking as putting a AEWC chappati on it. Not to mention it's comparatively miniscule range.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Aditya_V » 06 Jun 2019 19:07

Harpoon weighs around 700kg and Nirbhay with booster weighs 1500kg, so without booster it could weigh 1200 kg. 737 should be able to carry a few of these at least underbody

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Singha » 06 Jun 2019 21:11

bombers and LRMP do not fly lots of short missions or manouver as harshly as fighters, their missions are long and smooth.
that is why B52 airframes built in 1960s are expected to serve into the 2040s when they will be 90 years old.
and same ancient engines but new instances

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ramana » 06 Jun 2019 21:40

Aditya_V wrote:Well if wishes were courses why not a 737 based Bomber, Awacs, Mid Air refueller, common platform with our LRMP no.


There could be agreements to not alter US mfd aircraft.
Russians would assist for a large fee.

Any way whom do we want o bomb with these CMs?

Conventional armed CM like Tomahawk became a solution after nuke role ended.
And US used to use them as expensive long range artillery to hit Arabs hiding in tents in Afghanistan.

Used to make POTUS look all powerful and soothe the anger in American countryside.

No proof of effectiveness.

Nirbhay has its mission and hence was developed.

Its good against TSP only.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ramana » 06 Jun 2019 21:41

Don't go into fan boy mode and develop stuff because it can be done.

Weapons have to be backed by policy.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ramana » 06 Jun 2019 21:47

Barath wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:Any confirmation yesterday Brahmos test a failure, not mentioned in many media reports

https://zeenews.india.com/india/supersonic-cruise-missile-brahmos-test-fired-2209123.html



http://www.newindianexpress.com/states/ ... 86254.html

Not more than what was already mentioned (failure, deviated after 10 km and went into sea, experimental, indian subsystem) here except some unnamed sources claimed it was a success, presumably because they monitored/validated some parameters, also it was land attack. No details..



Thanks for the factual news report among a sea of fantasy.

Usually missile launches have many milestones.
Launch equipment readiness, missile readiness, missile launch, missile ignition, missile flight, missile hitting target.

Looks like this flight of a new missile did not accomplish the last two.

As it is a new design it does not affect the existing Brahmos.

Wish the DRDO made that clear.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Ravi Karumanchiri » 06 Jun 2019 22:46

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The quickest way to do this, would be to build-in a small port into the rear-bottom of the 737, and to eject the Nirbhay out this rear-bottom port; let it drop 20 meters and then ignite the motor well away from the 737.

Internal carriage, loading into a launch cylinder that is purged rearward to eject the missile backward and out, as a bird flying and pooping. :rotfl:

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Singha » 07 Jun 2019 08:36

the large fuselages of commercial a/c are not suitable for bomb bays and just extra weight carried around.
every bomber out there incl the b52 has pencil slim fuselage just enough to fit bomb bays. and big long wet wings for range and lift.

rather than 737 fantasies, its better to buy some refurbished backfires for now, and sign up for the new build tu160 which russia will appreciate the funding for. make it a point that OEM will help for every missile or bomb we want to integrate

the b52 is all wing and less fuselage
Image
same for the bear
Image

maybe 4 passengers seats side by side in the fuselage max.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Singha » 07 Jun 2019 08:40

these issues have been debated decades ago and sound engineering solutions found.
and it looks like the above.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Indranil » 07 Jun 2019 08:44

Two other important design considerations are the position of the MLGs and the clearance of the wing off the ground.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Barath » 07 Jun 2019 09:26

JTull wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:Well if wishes were courses why not a 737 based Bomber, Awacs, Mid Air refueller, common platform with our LRMP no.


Why not a fighter? :wink:


Jtull, you only thought you were joking. There is a concept of an arsenal plane.

After all, it is the missile that delivers the hurt. And a big plane can carry more hurt. Further, having more power/size helps with better sensors (eg radar) and equipment and having more people helps with decision making (eg AWACS)

So why is the best fighter not a bomber ?

If you actually think about it, today's fighters are the size of WW2 bombers, so you may say that it has already happened....in one sense.

But big planes are also more vulnerable and less manoeuvrable (hence awacs and tankers staying away from penetration)...and costlier. High speed and manoeuvrability don't just add to survivability, they also improve odds of kill sometimes (more Kinetic energy can help Probability of kill). And getting closer also improves sensor info and Pk.

So the concept of an arsenal ship and arsenal plane periodically makes a comeback. A near future concept mooted is the penetrating stealth fighter communicating targeting level info to an arsenal plane. Some people even say that Israel's stealth F35 with heavily loaded slightly bigger F15 is analogous.

So maybe one day, you might see a converted 737 "fighter"

https://warisboring.com/u-s-air-force-a ... gun-china/

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Barath » 07 Jun 2019 09:45

ldev wrote:The reason I mention the TU-142 is that it is effectively the same aircraft as the TU95 bomber. Capable of having additional/strengthened hard points and a massive range, it out-ranges both the TU-160 and the B1. With a un-refueled range of ~12500 kms, it can show up from the South China sea off China's seaboard or from the western Arabian sea towards Pakistan, forcing them to have active air defences facing in all directions.


How many countries do you have to overfly to get to the South china Sea? With approval or without ? Even friendly nations may take it amiss if they find their airspace used to attack a neighbour, putting them in a spot they do not desire at a time not of their choosing..

China's biggest rivals face off against it across that area (Japan, the US, Taiwan...even little Phillippines and Taiwan). That's why you expect them to spend significort effort already there in air defence. Are you really imposing a serious marginal threat or cost on China ? And at what cost to yourself ?

What logistics challenges and diplomatic ones do you want to take up... and why ?
And can you not deal with Pakistan even without these ? Is such a range really needed ? Think of a refueled Sukhoi and its range.

If your missiles have a long enough range, it is in effect a stand-off cruise missile carrier, it need not penetrate dense enemy air-defences.


Do you need a carrier ? Why not just launch an ultra range stealthy cruise missile from land or sea ?

I agree to your point about long range cruise missiles. (I just think it will be a different name - at the very least Nirbhay III :)
Subsonic missiles can also be stealthier and fly those indirect dog legs.

They cannot patrol or do very visible things in times of peace. But sometimes it is enough for your enemy to know you have them

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby sajaym » 07 Jun 2019 12:15

ldev wrote:https://sputniknews.com/asia/201906041075620624-india-tests-extended-range-brahmos/

18:06 04.06.2019(updated 18:08 04.06.2019)
...India's Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has claimed that another version of the missile with a strike range of 800 km has been under development. The missile could be tested within a year.

The 800-km range would be achieved by optimising the cruise performance of the missile's ramjet engine and through the use of composites to reduce missile's weight to allow for an enhanced fuel load. However, the changes will not impact the external dimensions of the missile.


From the range, could this be a sea-launched version?

While attacking a port or naval base, it would be useful to first take out the coastal defence batteries/Air defence ships with an 800km range brahmos and then follow up attack with Nirbhay missiles. First a punch in the face, then a kick in the b***s.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ldev » 07 Jun 2019 15:19

Barath wrote:
How many countries do you have to overfly to get to the South china Sea? With approval or without ? Even friendly nations may take it amiss if they find their airspace used to attack a neighbour, putting them in a spot they do not desire at a time not of their choosing..

China's biggest rivals face off against it across that area (Japan, the US, Taiwan...even little Phillippines and Taiwan). That's why you expect them to spend significort effort already there in air defence. Are you really imposing a serious marginal threat or cost on China ? And at what cost to yourself ?

What logistics challenges and diplomatic ones do you want to take up... and why ?
And can you not deal with Pakistan even without these ? Is such a range really needed ? Think of a refueled Sukhoi and its range.



Do you need a carrier ? Why not just launch an ultra range stealthy cruise missile from land or sea ?

I agree to your point about long range cruise missiles. (I just think it will be a different name - at the very least Nirbhay III :)
Subsonic missiles can also be stealthier and fly those indirect dog legs.

They cannot patrol or do very visible things in times of peace. But sometimes it is enough for your enemy to know you have them


The whole point of the TU-142 ruminations is that India has 8 aircraft with sunk cost and the TU-142 is a long range maritime patrol version of the TU-95, a dedicated long range bomber. The Russian hard point modification to their TU-95 have added hard points capable of carrying 8 external KH-101 or KH-102 missiles. Plus 6 smaller missiles in the internal bomb bay. In theory 8 of these planes can carry a total of 14x8=112 missiles, almost 3x as many as the 40 special order SU-30s which can carry 1 Brahmos. So it will be an efficient solution to deploying a large number of LACM, whether subsonic or supersonic.

As far as overflying countries is concerned, a TU-142 flying from the southern Nicobar can fly via the Straits of Malacca right into the coast of southern China and come back well within about 50% of it's range of ~12000 km, measure the distance. And the whole point is that they should be carrying stand-off missiles with a range of at least 1000 km, preferably >1000km so they do not need test coastal defences. If you ever track US military aircraft transiting that area, they transit through the Straits of Malacca so no need to get overflying rights.

And as for Pakistan, the whole idea is to give the IAF/IN a tactical front which Pakistan least expects e.g. a group of TU-142s, heading SSW from India for a 1000 kms, lost to Pakistani coverage and then Brahmos/Nirbhay flying in from the west. The border with Pakistan and the LOC has become a heavily defended/monitored air space. Open up other options. And yes naval vessels can do the same, but aircraft can cover those distances and be in places in hours not days.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Gyan » 07 Jun 2019 19:32

We have given up the only aircraft which could have attacked Chinese Southern Coast ie Tu-142

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby SSridhar » 10 Jun 2019 07:36

Sukhois to be tipped with BrahMos ahead of deadline - PTI
Weeks after the Balakot air strikes, the government decided to fast-track arming over 40 Sukhoi fighter jets with the BrahMos supersonic cruise missile, a closely guarded strategic project aimed at bolstering the combat capability of the Indian Air Force, official sources said on Sunday.

They said Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. and BrahMos Aerospace Ltd. were told to complete the work much before the December 2020 deadline. In 2016, the government decided to fit the air-launched variant of BrahMos in over 40 Sukhoi fighter jets. The work started by 2017-end, but it has been progressing slowly, the sources said.

A review on ways to strengthen the Air Force against the backdrop of the Balakot air strikes and Pakistani retaliation concluded that the early integration of BrahMos with the Sukhois should be a priority, they said.

It was felt that the planned induction of Rafale aircraft equipped with the Meteor beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile, procurement of the S-400 air defence missile system and integration of BrahMos with the Sukhois will provide India a significant advantage over the Pakistani Air Force.

One view in the IAF is that had it possessed high levels of “technological asymmetry”, Pakistan could have been dealt a heavy blow during its aerial raid on February 27 .

The government is undertaking several measures to strengthen the Air Force’s combat prowess, the sources said, adding that the HAL had been specifically told to put additional manpower and resources to fast-track the BrahMos project.

Once the weapon is integrated with the combat fleet, the IAF’s capability to strike from large stand-off ranges on any target in sea or land is expected to go up manifold. The missile, coupled with the superlative performance of the Sukhoi aircraft, will give the IAF a strategic reach and allow it to dominate the ocean and land battlefields, says an IAF assessment.


The air-launched variant of the Brahmos was successfully test-fired from a Sukhoi-30 combat jet on November 22, 2017, marking a major milestone to enhance the precision strike capability of the air force.

A fleet of 40 Sukhoi jets is undergoing structural modifications at the state-run aerospace major Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) for integration of the missile on them.

The 2.5-tonne missile flies almost three times the speed of sound at Mach 2.8 and has a range of 290 km.

The range of the missile, an Indo-Russia joint venture, can be extended up to 400 km as certain technical restrictions were lifted after India became a full member of the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR) last year.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby sajaym » 10 Jun 2019 11:03

Awesome news ! BTW I'm totally blown by the loadout of the SU-30 with the Brahmos attached. This loadout enables the SU to kickdown the Radar fence, bomb a 'madrassa' and let off an AA missile into the face of incoming CAP fighters. Only thing this jingo now desperately wants :( is a twin rack pylon for the Astra or whatever missile. Or would it be technically feasible to add an overwing pylon on these 40 SU-30s like the Jaguar? Anyway the airframe has been strengthened.

srai wrote:Image

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby vimal » 10 Jun 2019 11:09

^^ 'One view in the IAF is that had it possessed high levels of “technological asymmetry”, Pakistan could have been dealt a heavy blow during its aerial raid on February 27 .'


I'm confused, how would Brahmos prevent the raid or help deal with the enemy planes. It's a land/sea target attack missile so maybe used against airstrips but that can be done with other systems as well. Better option would be to improve quick reaction systems in place and more importantly improving situation awareness. IAF never prepared for the type of Paki response.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Singha » 10 Jun 2019 11:14

the pak AD radars we need to take out for various balakot++ missions are within range of the ground based brahmos from day1. @mach3 they are mere minutes from the border....but we do need rivet joint type airborne platform to constantly sniff their going live and catch standby radars going live to immediately geolocate and target using NGARM and brahmos combine. maybe our AWACS can do the geolocation part. need NGARM in service to catch these agile threats.

its the ereyie and y8 awacs that are the problem. and for that some ERAAM solution or ground based monster SAM can atleast drive them off to the west for the time we need to get in and out. but this has to be done pre-emptively and constitutes a political decision to fire at PAF assets and not just "non military jihadi targets" fig leaf reasoning.

having flown inside a A330-300 recently, its interior capacity is humongous vs a 737. you can put 20 awacs controller desks and have room left over for 10 EW/rivet joint desks plus a capacious crew rest and sleeping area. all in business class comfort. and it has a 22 hr endurance with those huge long wings. sooner we roll them in as awacs and mrtt the better. each carts 110 tons of fuel COTS. the mrtt features no extra fuel tanks :D

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Aditya_V » 10 Jun 2019 11:18

Pakistan broke these red lines by firing at our aircraft well within our side of LOC.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Singha » 10 Jun 2019 11:20

Aditya_V wrote:Pakistan broke these red lines by firing at our aircraft well within our side of LOC.


I fully agree. Balakot 2.0 should not be a sneak attack and fig leaf reasoning. anything that is in the way must be "taken and shredded" Raga style.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Kashi » 10 Jun 2019 11:46

I do wonder when will we see that happening. Given the Baki proclivities, they'll end up giving us an opportunity sooner or later. The question is how high up the escalation ladder will we be willing to go?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby srin » 10 Jun 2019 12:01

India to buy US missile system to shield Delhi
(sorry - can't quote the article. Site doesn't allow copy-paste).
Infographic below. IMO, Multi-layered is a misnomer - it is starting to look like United Nations Air defence system. I'm sure we'll fit in UK and French systems somewhere.
Image

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby sum » 10 Jun 2019 12:52

^^ Truly Chankyan to ensure no enemy in this world can ever guess which component to develop counter-measures for since literally every system of the world seems represented!

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby nits » 10 Jun 2019 13:16

sum wrote:^^ Truly Chankyan to ensure no enemy in this world can ever guess which component to develop counter-measures for since literally every system of the world seems represented!


I am not a expert here but is it a over kill and do we really need this many systems - and is there interoperatibility among them

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Aditya_V » 10 Jun 2019 13:19

ANy chance that AIM 120 C-7 acquired for Nasams with wink wink from Uncle be ported onto aircraft carrying EL 2032, EL2052's, French M 2000 and Rafale?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby nits » 10 Jun 2019 13:34

As a layman - are we just taking NASAM to happy uncle as they are threatening sanctions because of S400

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Singha » 10 Jun 2019 14:19

Aditya_V wrote:ANy chance that AIM 120 C-7 acquired for Nasams with wink wink from Uncle be ported onto aircraft carrying EL 2032, EL2052's, French M 2000 and Rafale?


well even israel was unable to get the amraams integrated into its Elta radar and uses stock APG68 radar on f16I-sufa. same case for f15.

till date the amraam has never been ported to any non-american radar. same for the aim9. its like apple ecosystem not android.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Aditya_V » 10 Jun 2019 14:37

Not even Mirage 2000 and Rafale, no Nato interoperality - to be expected but was just thinking, this Nasams thing doesn't make any sense other than we need to buy a certain dollar value of American weapons to keep our relations going and America not to penalize us using thier various tools they have including allowing our banks to trade in the US dollar.
Having worked in my KPO days with a Bank, I learnt why banks cooperate with FATCA, the simple reason given is the US Govt can force you from not trading in the US dollar, which effectively means shutting your Bank down.
We need to work round the amount of leverage the US has and keep them relatively happy while ensuring we have enough defense capabilities against the Pakis and the Chinese.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Prithwiraj » 10 Jun 2019 15:45

There are other ways to spend 1.5 billion dollars on American hardware like more C-130Js or something else.... How on earth so many different systems will talk to each other during a real war scenario? We had issues handling Spyder in Kashmir... when panic button was pressed....

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby JTull » 10 Jun 2019 16:12



Seems HAL has again been caught napping. All the while it has been complaining about not receiving orders, it's execution of existing works is lethargic at best.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby JTull » 10 Jun 2019 16:57


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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby vcsekhar » 10 Jun 2019 17:03

Singha wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:ANy chance that AIM 120 C-7 acquired for Nasams with wink wink from Uncle be ported onto aircraft carrying EL 2032, EL2052's, French M 2000 and Rafale?


well even israel was unable to get the amraams integrated into its Elta radar and uses stock APG68 radar on f16I-sufa. same case for f15.

till date the amraam has never been ported to any non-American radar. same for the aim9. its like apple ecosystem not android.


Minor crib here... The Amraam was ported to the Sea Harrier with the British Blue Vixen radar when the Sea Harrier FA2 was introduced in the early 90's. So its not that the Amraam has never been ported to any non American radar.
Also, the Amraam works currently with the Gripen, Tornado and the Typhoon (all of which have European Radars) according to Raytheon.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ArjunPandit » 10 Jun 2019 17:04

Prithwiraj wrote:There are other ways to spend 1.5 billion dollars on American hardware like more C-130Js or something else.... How on earth so many different systems will talk to each other during a real war scenario? We had issues handling Spyder in Kashmir... when panic button was pressed....

+1, the good thing is all these wrinkles are ironed out during such skirmishes before a full blown war. Until HAL and OFB are sorted out, we will have to pay the suzerainty to the powers that be

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ArjunPandit » 10 Jun 2019 17:05

JTull wrote:


Seems HAL has again been caught napping. All the while it has been complaining about not receiving orders, it's execution of existing works is lethargic at best.

Please note that it's chindu..

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby brar_w » 10 Jun 2019 20:25



Given that this has been doing the rounds for quite a while now, one would have thought that the media at least get the weapon system facts down. This is very much a Norwegian system, and though it utilizes many elements from US Army systems, the guts of the system (C2) are 100% Norwegian as are the data rights and libraries. The US never really created a HAWK replacement and this allowed Kongsberg to step in and put together something for that market. The US does operate stand alone systems (not expeditionary/ one off purchase) but neither NASAMS as it currently exists, nor any future iteration of it is going to be included in the US Army's Air and Missile Defense set up.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ramana » 10 Jun 2019 21:09

Prithwiraj wrote:There are other ways to spend 1.5 billion dollars on American hardware like more C-130Js or something else.... How on earth so many different systems will talk to each other during a real war scenario? We had issues handling Spyder in Kashmir... when panic button was pressed....


The deal is baksheesh to DT.
To his mind Russia got S 400 deal.
So unless its another missile deal he wont be happy.
If you buy C-130 he will still demand missile purchases.

Besides the multi-level air defence will keep the Lootyens safe and protected in Delhi


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