Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

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tushar_m
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby tushar_m » 21 Jun 2019 09:08

The R-37M designation has since been used for a modernized variant of the missile, also known as RVV-BD (Raketa Vozduh-Vozduh Bolyshoy Dalnosty or English for Long-Range Air-to-Air Missile).. This will be carried by the modernized MiG-31BM and Su-35S fighters. It is not known if the long range air-to-air missile for the Sukhoi Su-57, designated the izdeliye 810, is a derivative of the R-37M.

According to Defence Today the range depends on the flight profile, from 80 nautical miles (150 km) for a direct shot[2] to 215 nautical miles (398 km) for a cruise glide profile. According to Jane's there are two variants, the R-37 and the R-37M; the latter has a jettisonable rocket booster that increases the range to "300-400km" (160–220 nm).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R-37_(missile)

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Aditya_V » 21 Jun 2019 11:14

JTull wrote:India Begins User Trials of Russian Air-to-Air Missiles, Destroys UK-Made Drone in Drill

In the first indication that Russian missiles are being used by India's primary warplanes, including the Su-30MKI and Mirage 2000, the Indian Air Force has started user trials of next generation air-to-air missiles manufactured by Vympel, a subsidiary of Russia's consolidated JSC Tactical Missiles Corporation.



The nation's stockpile dipped due to an increased number of combat air patrol missions along the border with Pakistan, involving its main fighters, such as the Su-30MKI, MiG-29, and Mirage 2000.





Which Russian missile is fitted on M-2000, there were reports durign Kargil that IAF had managed to fit R-73 missiles on M-2000's.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Singha » 21 Jun 2019 11:15

are there any pics at all of Su35 testing this missile? I have never seen it.
the zaslon radar of Mig31 has long been compatible with the R37 as its long range needs a mid course datalink and it was day0 on foxhound. the irbis/bars may need some sw changes to talk to this missile.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Aditya_V » 21 Jun 2019 11:17

Looks like we felt the reports of ASRAAM on Su -30 was a negotiating tactic by IAF to get the Russians to give us thier latest maal since R-73 was a bit long in the tooth. Now looking for addition of RVV BD missile in IAF inventory, 1 getting used and mysteriously a SAAB erieye crashing in the Islamabad Rawalpindi area, crashing on a public area. :D

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Vivek K » 21 Jun 2019 11:27

Is the news about the erieye true? Source?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Aditya_V » 21 Jun 2019 11:40

Look at my words, it is in my wishlist, not something that has actually happened.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ramana » 21 Jun 2019 23:17

Aditya_V Look for Vympel launcher on M2K.
If its there then can expect Russian AAMs on them.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Vivek K » 22 Jun 2019 00:05

:)
Aditya_V wrote:Look at my words, it is in my wishlist, not something that has actually happened.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Gyan » 22 Jun 2019 00:36

Does some one recollect series of interviews given by Avinash Chandra, before being sacked about

300km AAM
300km Sam
300km PGM ?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby kit » 22 Jun 2019 03:06

i guess the vympel AAM is to force those Erieye out of range in the next encounter, but interesting that it can be integrated to Mirages ??

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Aditya_V » 22 Jun 2019 10:43

I doubt the M-2000 carries all missiles in the family, it probably can fire only the IR guided R-73 and R-74.

Now the article in the print is also interesting

https://theprint.in/defence/wiser-after-balakot-india-orders-missiles-worth-700-million-from-russia/249553/

Sources said Russia has also offered to help India for future orders with missiles with ranges longer than the ones it currently possesses.

According to Russian Tactical Missiles Corporation, the developer and producer of most of the Russian air-to-air missiles, the R-73’s range is 30 km. The range of its latest version, the RVV-MD, is 40 km.

It’s the same case with the R-77, which can hit targets at a distance of up to 80 km, while its latest version, the RVV-SD, can go up to 110 km.

Russia is currently offering its partners globally the short-range air-to-air RVV-MD missiles, medium-range air-to-air RVV-SD missiles, long-range air-to-air RVV-BD missiles, and medium-range air-to-air RVV-AE (R-77) missiles.


This along with Sputnik news I think definately our SU-30, Bison , Mig 29 Airforce, Navy and to some extent LCA Tejas and M-2000 are getting some new Russian missiles, if M-2000 can fire these then I am sure the 6 aircraft arriving from France in Sep19 will also be able to fire them.

Lets hope PAF gets a very bitter experience soon.

I hope also we invest heavily in Astra production

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Haridas » 22 Jun 2019 10:58

Singha wrote:the B52 can only take the object upto 10km high and speed of 800kmph. so even the US hypersonics will need a jettisonable solid fuel booster to reach the height and speed to try the scramjet engine. we dont have B52 so thats not an option. they can get away with a smaller booster.

in the good old days the B52 used to drop launch the X1, X15 types ... neil armstrong used to fly the x15 like that.

Pegasus rocket is one such example.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pegasus_(rocket)

Air launching has its own set of issues. If I were DRDO Agni_1 is the simplest, reliable, cheap and ready for use tool for the purpose.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Gyan » 23 Jun 2019 13:47

Our NGARM weight (estimated) 600kg warhead 60kg seems like a good candidate for Air to Air ARM. Might have a range of 200-400 km in lofted profile against a low G maneuvering airborne target.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ashishvikas » 24 Jun 2019 09:39

India scraps Israel anti-tank missile deal after DRDO says will deliver

INDIA HAS scrapped a $500-million deal with Israel for the purchase of Spike anti-tank missiles from defence contractor Rafael Advanced Defense Systems after indigenous developer Defence Research & Development Organisation (DRDO) claimed that it could deliver an alternative within two years.

Government officials associated with the approval of the deal said Israel has been informed about the contract being abandoned in favour of DRDO, which claimed that it was developing a similar missile at a lower price in partnership with VEM Technologies Ltd.

https://indianexpress.com/article/india ... o-5796306/

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby sum » 24 Jun 2019 09:46

Hope and pray that DRDO actually delivers and IA doesn't do the usual run-through 10000 summer/winter/spring trials to make this a good example

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby mody » 24 Jun 2019 16:15

Finally the Spike deal put to rest. Hopefully the MPATGM will come up fast. By the way any news on the progress of the NAG order? The last news was for an order of 300 or 500 missiles and 25 NAMICA having been placed or approved. But no further updates on the same.
The induction was slated to start in 2019. Don't know if the actual order has been placed as yet or not and what is the current status. Same with HELINA. Some tests carried out last year. All declared successful, but no news thereafter.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ramana » 25 Jun 2019 03:31

ashishvikas wrote:India scraps Israel anti-tank missile deal after DRDO says will deliver

INDIA HAS scrapped a $500-million deal with Israel for the purchase of Spike anti-tank missiles from defence contractor Rafael Advanced Defense Systems after indigenous developer Defence Research & Development Organisation (DRDO) claimed that it could deliver an alternative within two years.

Government officials associated with the approval of the deal said Israel has been informed about the contract being abandoned in favour of DRDO, which claimed that it was developing a similar missile at a lower price in partnership with VEM Technologies Ltd.

https://indianexpress.com/article/india ... o-5796306/


First strike against the Israel lobby

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ramana » 25 Jun 2019 03:32

mody read o twitter that the SAMHO is getting ready which means the CLGM is also ready.

NAG is quite expensive as it has been speced out of price.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby SSridhar » 25 Jun 2019 07:34

mody wrote:Finally the Spike deal put to rest. Hopefully the MPATGM will come up fast. By the way any news on the progress of the NAG order? The last news was for an order of 300 or 500 missiles and 25 NAMICA having been placed or approved. But no further updates on the same.
The induction was slated to start in 2019. Don't know if the actual order has been placed as yet or not and what is the current status.

IIRC, NAG was set to undergo the final set of summer user trials in May-June, 2019. NAG had successfully completed the winter user trials in December, 2018. Induction slated for end of 2019.
Same with HELINA. Some tests carried out last year. All declared successful, but no news thereafter.

There was one more successful test in Feb this year from an Army chopper. No news after that.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby arvin » 25 Jun 2019 10:13

The bigger spike deal has been scrapped. But the smaler emergency purchase of 240 size for spike MR still stands. Just about sufficient till drdo thing comes online.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby mody » 25 Jun 2019 14:40

ramana wrote:mody read o twitter that the SAMHO is getting ready which means the CLGM is also ready.

NAG is quite expensive as it has been speced out of price.


Ramana sir, didn't understand what you are saying about the Nag? Expensive understood, but is that the reason that the orders haven't been placed?

CLGM and SAMHO are supposed to be laser beam riding missiles, not fire and forget. Besides, where is the platform for CLGM? Arjun-Mk1A or MK-2 are nowhere in site. Some reports a few months back said that order for about 4 regiments for Mk1A would be placed, but no further progress.
Maybe can used with BMP-2s, in place for Konkurs. The BMP-2 upgrade itself is pending since so many years, with no concrete progress.
The same story with most defence programs.

Astra MK1, supposedly ready, but no firm orders as yet. LCH, LSP order was to have been placed. No news as yet. Akash orders for next batch of 7 squadrons for the IAF, pending since last 2 years. LCA MK1A, no order as yet. Dhanush order for only first batch of 114 guns, out of total requirement of 414 guns has been placed. Mounted guns prototypes from OFB and Tata are ready. No progress on that front so far. Tata's can easily replace the Denel gun with a ATAGS derived gun on their mounted gun platform. Programs like FMBT and FICV etc, which are still only on paper, should not even be considered.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Singha » 25 Jun 2019 15:19

do these so called F&F IIR ATGMs top attack permit the designator and the launch tube to be separated? I have never seen any such video - the javelin is always fired by the guy doing padmasana on the ground with his thermal sight pointing at the tank, the javelin climbs and then dives - lo and behold the shooter i guess has to acquire the tank in his sight and wait until the javelin sensor uses IIR to detect the tank and starts its dive?

i think laser beam riders like Kornet and Metis are still very viable weapons and keep the missile really cheap and reliable without a delicate IIR seeker to worry about. both of them feature very low prone firing position and a short tripod, vs the padmasana of javelin or the huge bulk of the TOW tripod and missile tube.

IIR can really come into its own in heavier longer range sticks like Nag - if we separate out agile bike, 4x4 and infantry based sensors to acquire the intial fix on target and then tracked or wheeled IFVs behind the defilade position salvo fire them over the top in NLOS mode.

javelin imho is just a iphone where a xiaomi works fine.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ramana » 26 Jun 2019 02:18

Mody a typical tank costs $1.5M-$2M. Any guided bomb costs $25K mainly due to guidance.
NAG on other hand costs $1M because it has been speced out of price.
How cost effective to kil a tank with a missile that costs about the same proce?
Might get more tanks no?
How many Nags can you fire at an incoming armored brigade?
On other hand it might make it into helicopters.
Rest of you post need to await the defence budget.
NaMo govt is surely for Make In India.

Reason is with $ going up what can be imported gets reduced.
Its like the IMac and generic desktop.
You can get 6 generic desktops for one IMac.
Just like iPhones vs Xiaomi that GD is giving example.
And gets you troops more productive.

Arjunk M1A and Tesjas Mk1A will both be ordered this budget I think.
And after Nowshera, Astra Mk1 will get orders.

GD need to setup the IIR seeker factor and not just import the focal plane array.
Someone will cut them off out of spite.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby abhik » 26 Jun 2019 09:14

^^^
Any sources for the $1M price tag for Nag, i find that hard to believe given the production has not even started.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby lakshmanM » 26 Jun 2019 09:54

- The Army also flagged the high cost of the Nag missile. The cost of the Nag ATGM is about half a million dollars, almost double the price of the ...https://www.defensenews.com/land/2017/09/29/indian-army-wants-more-tests-before-ordering-homemade-anti-tank-missile/

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby uddu » 26 Jun 2019 10:46

Seems the Spike which is an MPATGM cost 4 times more at 2 million dollars.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 26 Jun 2019 11:10

Indian Army ...logic goes for a toss in their procurement as always..
Order a few hundred rounds, expect price to be = or lesser than an import with production in the thousands easily.
Crib about imported FPA for missile, and TI sight.. are ok with completely imported missiles otherwise. :roll:

After reading their commentary, no longer surprised about comedy central reports of "we were about to order the rifles, then realized somebody else makes the ammo". :roll:

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Pratyush » 26 Jun 2019 11:37

uddu wrote:Seems the Spike which is an MPATGM cost 4 times more at 2 million dollars.


The price range for such missiles is not more than a hundred thousand dollars.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby darshhan » 26 Jun 2019 13:40

uddu wrote:Seems the Spike which is an MPATGM cost 4 times more at 2 million dollars.


This is reaching the price range of Brahmos cruise missile. Almost equal to the price of the tank that it is supposed to destroy.

If this is true then Indian military needs to take lessons from daesh on how to destroy tanks using VBIEDs. 'cause such profligate expenditure will destroy this country instead of protecting it.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Singha » 26 Jun 2019 13:57

the Metis or Kornet would be far cheaper really. and they work like hell as the houthis have proved against tfta abrams and IFVs wielded by the saudis.
what we need is a next generation of cheap laser beam rider in the MPATGM not a javelin-mki @ cost of a konkurs :rotfl:

force planning in tune with national strategy seems to be completely absent.
govt is looking at 5 yrs
army is looking at their own tenure and what can be done with small tranches of fund released not long term programs.

the onlee thing with all round support is the blessed T90. we have the worlds largest fleet and its getting bigger.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ArjunPandit » 26 Jun 2019 15:34

Karan M wrote:Indian Army ...logic goes for a toss in their procurement as always..
Order a few hundred rounds, expect price to be = or lesser than an import with production in the thousands easily.
Crib about imported FPA for missile, and TI sight.. are ok with completely imported missiles otherwise. :roll:

After reading their commentary, no longer surprised about comedy central reports of "we were about to order the rifles, then realized somebody else makes the ammo". :roll:

is it DGMF, MOD or DDM?
I find it hard to believe that folks in army would do such silly mistake..but then...

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Arun.prabhu » 27 Jun 2019 06:14

Spike unit cost is, Iirc, between 50 and 100kUSD. Anything more indicates major corruption or Israe taking us to the cleaners.

uddu wrote:Seems the Spike which is an MPATGM cost 4 times more at 2 million dollars.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Singha » 27 Jun 2019 07:44

arent bullets supposed to be interchangeable or does the length also vary ?
will the regular INSAS desi bullets fit into gori chamri SIG and caracal rifles or are "indians and dogs not allowed" ? :mrgreen:

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Varoon Shekhar » 28 Jun 2019 02:13

https://www.rediff.com/news/report/nucl ... 190627.htm

Prithvi-2 missile, 350 km range, successfully tested Thursday night

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Aditya_V » 28 Jun 2019 12:29

Varoon Shekhar wrote:https://www.rediff.com/news/report/nuclear-capable-prithvi-ii-successfully-test-fired/20190627.htm

Prithvi-2 missile, 350 km range, successfully tested Thursday night


Any theories whether this was a cover for some other test?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby sudhan » 28 Jun 2019 13:30

Aditya_V wrote:
Varoon Shekhar wrote:https://www.rediff.com/news/report/nuclear-capable-prithvi-ii-successfully-test-fired/20190627.htm

Prithvi-2 missile, 350 km range, successfully tested Thursday night


Any theories whether this was a cover for some other test?


Prithvi tests are almost always a cover for something else..

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Gyan » 29 Jun 2019 21:45

abhik wrote:^^^
Any sources for the $1M price tag for Nag, i find that hard to believe given the production has not even started.


Cost of Nag, Spike, Javelin will be roughly similar. Something like USD 150,000 per round. Average deal cost per round alongwith accompanying equipment would be USD 200-250,000 Per round

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ramana » 30 Jun 2019 11:52

Abhi, Wiki article on Nag says 0.5M/missile.
And this news report says:

"The Army also flagged the high cost of the Nag missile. The cost of the Nag ATGM is about half a million dollars, almost double the price of the Israeli Spike or American Javelin missile, according to a second Army official.

The thermal sensors of the Nag missile are procured from Rafael of Israel and Thales of France, which is one reason for the missile’s high cost."

I recall seeing higher recently and will post it after I find it.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Vivek K » 30 Jun 2019 21:01

T-90 vs Arjun script again. Wonder what costs are hidden to make the import cheaper. And does anyone take efficiency of missile into view plus the indirect contribution to the economy - US believes that every dollar spent leads to 7 dollars of benefit indirectly. So again the Indian armed forces will be lambasted by history for their anti national and corrupt practices.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Snehashis » 30 Jun 2019 21:30

ramana wrote:Abhi, Wiki article on Nag says 0.5M/missile.
And this news report says:

"The Army also flagged the high cost of the Nag missile. The cost of the Nag ATGM is about half a million dollars, almost double the price of the Israeli Spike or American Javelin missile, according to a second Army official.

The thermal sensors of the Nag missile are procured from Rafael of Israel and Thales of France, which is one reason for the missile’s high cost."

I recall seeing higher recently and will post it after I find it.


This report from Shiv Aroor dated April 2018 says it is much cheaper and we successfully developed tested our own seeker which is better than the imported one.

The Ministry of Defence today cleared a $70 million for 300 Nag missiles and 25 modified BMP-2 ‘NAMICA’ carrier vehicles that will deploy the munition.

Speaking of the challenges during trials that have kept the Nag for years in a seemingly endless loop, Christopher said, “In summer, there tank engine heat versus environment heat in a desert setting. Engine heat is hardly above that especially when switched off. It was difficult, we were pleading saying that our technology needs two degrees temperature differential. We especially had a critical problem around mid noon, from 11am to 3pm, because sun is very high and ambient temperatures are at their peak. The Nag’s range at this time was seen to fall by a few hundred meters to 3.2 km as against 4 km. In winter, there was no such problem.”

A new indigenous seeker that has been fielded in Nag trials over the last 18 months has evidently solved the problems bedeviling tests.


https://www.livefistdefence.com/2018/04 ... rvice.html


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