Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

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abhik
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby abhik » 31 Jul 2019 07:12

JayS wrote:Sjha tweets - XRSAM has entered test phase.

Wow, that's a pleasant surprise. Is test phase == test launch soon? Also what do we know about this system till date? All i remember is talk of 200-300 km range missile a few years back and then nothing more.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby sudhan » 31 Jul 2019 13:11

I hope its an all new missile not a derivative of the AAD as was rumored some years back... Just for the sheer excitement of seeing a new product made by desi hands and minds :)

I am guessing it will be a TFTA dual pulse motor, a derivative of the Barak8 motor ..

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby JayS » 31 Jul 2019 13:14

how does it matter what is it derived from if it fulfils all specs..?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Pratyush » 31 Jul 2019 14:43

Does it mean that India on the competition of the test phase will have a missile in the same class as the S400?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby kit » 31 Jul 2019 14:48

Prem Kumar wrote:USA has activated its shills in the Indian Media to pressurize the GOI on S-400. Was surprised to see Madhav Nalapat arguing vociferously (& nonsensically) against it as a "CBM to the U.S"! SuSwamy retweeted it too.

No dearth of morons.


The S400 issue is not just about the S400 but an indicator of well India can chart its own destiny, go the way of South Korea or China., oh btw the S400 is up and deployed in China already , not a whimper from the US :mrgreen: ..where was the CAATSA ?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 31 Jul 2019 14:50

Just an few word of caution

- VCAS Raghu Nambiar mentioned XRSAM as being part of/= to the BMD system (we can cross check via his YT talk, but just saying)
- In which case likely either PDV or AAD
- DRDO says XRSAM is different from BMD (they call out Program AD and XRSAM separately)
- So far DRDO has not displayed any integrated radar & C3I system which would be XRSAM (if it were a SAM alone), as they usually do for any project

sudhan wrote:I hope its an all new missile not a derivative of the AAD as was rumored some years back... Just for the sheer excitement of seeing a new product made by desi hands and minds :)

I am guessing it will be a TFTA dual pulse motor, a derivative of the Barak8 motor ..

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 31 Jul 2019 15:01

I dont think you have researched the topic completely to make this assertion.

First, India is going ahead with ASRAAM integration. The public disclosure indicates that.

Second, R-27s offer very useful capability. They are longer ranged than R73E in the TE version and can be used to passively attack approaching fighters closing in for WVR or even a NEZ BVR shot.
R27 RF version can be guided in along with an active homer for sensor diversity to attack ECM.

Third, some reports suggest these are EA versions, new active homers for returning the range advantage to the AF over AMRAAM C5.



Vips wrote:
Indrajit wrote:The Economic Times · 5 hours ago
India, Russia sign Rs 1,500 crore deal for air-to-air missiles to be used by Su-30.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... nm&ampcf=1

Of all R-27!


India needs to take a lesson from this and make MMRCA award conditional on the winner having to share the source codes and complete readiness to integrate third party missiles and armaments on the platform.

Russia is not ready to let us integrate ASRAAM, I-Derby ER, MBDA on its platforms and thus gets a windfall gain on supplying its missiles which are sub optimal and not best in class. We are stuck with so called improved versions of its R series missiles which are duds and no match to the US/European and Israeli missiles.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby kit » 31 Jul 2019 17:06

Karan M wrote:I dont think you have researched the topic completely to make this assertion.

First, India is going ahead with ASRAAM integration. The public disclosure indicates that.

Second, R-27s offer very useful capability. They are longer ranged than R73E in the TE version and can be used to passively attack approaching fighters closing in for WVR or even a NEZ BVR shot.
R27 RF version can be guided in along with an active homer for sensor diversity to attack ECM.

Third, some reports suggest these are EA versions, new active homers for returning the range advantage to the AF over AMRAAM C5.



Vips wrote:
India needs to take a lesson from this and make MMRCA award conditional on the winner having to share the source codes and complete readiness to integrate third party missiles and armaments on the platform.

Russia is not ready to let us integrate ASRAAM, I-Derby ER, MBDA on its platforms and thus gets a windfall gain on supplying its missiles which are sub optimal and not best in class. We are stuck with so called improved versions of its R series missiles which are duds and no match to the US/European and Israeli missiles.


won't launching an active radar-guided missile in tandem with a passive (IIR) work better than a single IR homing one? Also curious to know if there are dual seekers with combined passive (anti-radiation) and active radar homing missiles in service?

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/seeing-double-27656/ .. a good read, dated though

Marrying active-radar and IIR-seeker technology within one missile, however, raises various issues. BAe, GEC and the DRA are all examining issues such as whether there should be common or split apertures for the radar and IIR seekers.

Providing a common aperture for both radar and IIR seekers demands the use of advanced-materials technology. Split apertures, meanwhile, pose problems, with missile-airframe design.

A split-aperture approach may result in an asymmetric missile design. The traditional smooth lines of a radome could be succeeded by a missile front-end more resembling what one military source describes as a "shark's jaw". The "dog tooth" would house the IIR sensor, while the active-radar seeker would continue to radiate and receive throughout the front of the radar.

Such an approach would demand that, at least in the final phase of the engagement, the missile flies in such a way as to ensure that the target is always within the IIR aperture.

More arcane design solutions could get round this problem, by placing the IIR seeker at the front end of the missile, while using advanced materials shaped in such a way as to refocus the radar energy around the tip, both when it is being transmitted and received. Other options include a conventional radome, with up to four IR windows, mounted towards the front of the missile body to provide 360° coverage. Exactly which solution - or, more likely, solutions - will emerge remains to be seen.

Dual-mode AAMs have also attracted the attention of Israeli missile manufacturer Rafael, which is also examining IIR/active-radar-seeker combinations. The company says that it is funding a research programme into sensor-fusion technology for next-generation weapons

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Aditya_V » 31 Jul 2019 19:45

Active seeker in missile is anyway within the last 10km, where IIR will do. Till then missile's will require mid course guidance. Unless IIR can't work through cloud cover lasers confusing the seeker don't see an advantage for dual mode seeker for AAMs

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby brar_w » 31 Jul 2019 20:32

kit wrote:
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/seeing-double-27656/ .. a good read, dated though

...


The USN's SM-2 and Israel's stunner are both operational with combined IIR and RF guidance. The former is actually designed to defeat sophisticated Air threats in high jamming environments (protecting carrier from strike aircraft and bombers carrying lots of EW gear) and is currently receiving an active RF seeker upgrade borrowing the SM-6's active/passive seeker with HOJ capability. Combined IR/IIR and RF seekers for A2A applications were shortlisted as potential solutions back in the mid 1980's when Advanced Air-to-Air Missile (AAAM) program was being run by the USN to replace the AIM-54 on the F-14's.

One particular design that made first cut was an IR/RF shared aperture gimbal design from General Dynamics (now Raytheon) used on their proposal (pic below). The other one was a Raytheon/Hughes proposal that went one step beyond and married an IR along with the AMRAAM's RF seeker. Raytheon, which now own's GD missile business, and other OEM's around the world have various patents with drawings on shared apertures from missiles of varying sizes and applications. It will be interesting to see how the AIM-260 addresses this need because there is a conflict between very high initial speed (Mach 5+, perhaps even Mach 6), high sustained speeds and IIR targeting which requires sensor scan time for proper discrimination. 5th generation combat shrinks engagement window and as such it has long been suspected that at any given (fixed) range, missiles would have to get to target a lot faster or suffer considerable PK reduction (loss of target track, countermeasures etc etc) so higher upfront and sustained speed will put a considerable burden on IIR seeker design and overall cost of the missile. It may even be a deterrent to putting something like that there as opposed to exploring other passive means and antennas.

Image

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Gyan » 31 Jul 2019 23:10

My guess is that

R-27 are IR guided long range missiles perhaps with datalink, 100km?. Though can be ultra long range RF seeker missiles, 170km?

IAF always had interest in VLR BVR AAMs since 1980s. But Pak will also get something equivalent from China

We need to invest in other aids like DIRCM, Sat Comms, towed decoys, independent flying decoys, advanced jammers etc.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Cain Marko » 31 Jul 2019 23:43

Gyan wrote:My guess is that

R-27 are IR guided long range missiles perhaps with datalink, 100km?. Though can be ultra long range RF seeker missiles, 170km?

IAF always had interest in VLR BVR AAMs since 1980s. But Pak will also get something equivalent from China

We need to invest in other aids like DIRCM, Sat Comms, towed decoys, independent flying decoys, advanced jammers etc.

What equivalent does China have to say, a 200km VLRAAM? More importantly, what FCR does the PAF have that can track and provide guidance at such distances? Certainly not the JF 17, which is the only bird that can receive Chinese weapons.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Kartik » 01 Aug 2019 00:43

Cain Marko wrote:
Gyan wrote:My guess is that

R-27 are IR guided long range missiles perhaps with datalink, 100km?. Though can be ultra long range RF seeker missiles, 170km?

IAF always had interest in VLR BVR AAMs since 1980s. But Pak will also get something equivalent from China

We need to invest in other aids like DIRCM, Sat Comms, towed decoys, independent flying decoys, advanced jammers etc.

What equivalent does China have to say, a 200km VLRAAM? More importantly, what FCR does the PAF have that can track and provide guidance at such distances? Certainly not the JF 17, which is the only bird that can receive Chinese weapons.


PL-15.

link

Towed decoys or at least expendable decoys are absolutely required. But don't see any news on any such requirement from the IAF.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby kit » 01 Aug 2019 03:48

Kartik wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:What equivalent does China have to say, a 200km VLRAAM? More importantly, what FCR does the PAF have that can track and provide guidance at such distances? Certainly not the JF 17, which is the only bird that can receive Chinese weapons.


PL-15.

link

Towed decoys or at least expendable decoys are absolutely required. But don't see any news on any such requirement from the IAF.



the rafales come with towed decoys

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Cain Marko » 01 Aug 2019 04:21

Kartik wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:What equivalent does China have to say, a 200km VLRAAM? More importantly, what FCR does the PAF have that can track and provide guidance at such distances? Certainly not the JF 17, which is the only bird that can receive Chinese weapons.


PL-15.

link

Towed decoys or at least expendable decoys are absolutely required. But don't see any news on any such requirement from the IAF.


Yes, the pl15 is a potential threat but I still don't see how a jf17 can use it at extended ranges. It'll need to carry some radar in that little nose to make that work.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Gyan » 01 Aug 2019 10:37

IAF/DRDO showed interest in DIRCM in 2010 but thereafter complete silence. IAF continues on number of aircraft rather than optimization of war fighting capabilities.

Basic things like adequate Hangers both normal & hardened are not being built.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Gyan » 01 Aug 2019 10:43

My guess on weapon procurement


400 R27 IR guided
400 R77 RF guided
1000 R73 IR guided
250 kh-31 passive homing
1000 Spice bombs
1000 Shturm ATGMs

Hopefully we will order Weapons for LCA, we have 20-30 very capable LCAs, like

Iderby for LCA
Python 5 or ASRAAM

We also need to build up stocks of spares & gear up for repair, maintenance

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Aditya_V » 01 Aug 2019 10:45

And I think Astra is also entering service quietly in addition to these.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ashishvikas » 04 Aug 2019 16:25

India test-fires Quick Reaction Surface-to-Air Missile

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 520608.cms

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Kakarat » 04 Aug 2019 16:27

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/11 ... 0248347648
2 QRSAM missiles tested against live targets successfully today, say defence sources.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Kakarat » 04 Aug 2019 19:03

https://twitter.com/SpokespersonMoD/sta ... 8422108160
@DRDO_India developed state-of-the-art Quick Reaction Surface to Air Missiles (QRSAM) have been successfully flight tested against live aerial targets on 04 August 2019 from ITR, Chandipur.


Image
Image
Image
Image

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Kakarat » 04 Aug 2019 19:07

https://twitter.com/DefenceMinIndia/sta ... 0675981313

Successful flight testing of state of the art quick reaction surface to air missiles (QRSAM) against live aerial targets on 4th Aug 2019 from ITR, Chandipur.


The link has Video of the test
https://twitter.com/i/status/1157988780675981313

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby fanne » 04 Aug 2019 19:26

Does QSRAM shares anything with erstwhile Trishul?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 04 Aug 2019 22:53

Design of the airframe, Trishul was our first experience with maraging steel SAM construction.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Bart S » 04 Aug 2019 23:13

Is the seeker homegrown or sourced from elsewhere?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Prem Kumar » 04 Aug 2019 23:20

I think its homegrown - might even be the same MMW seeker as that of Akash-1S

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby srai » 05 Aug 2019 00:07

Bart S wrote:Is the seeker homegrown or sourced from elsewhere?

Same seeker: Astra, Akash 1S, QRSAM
Image

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Bart S » 05 Aug 2019 01:14

^Thanks, that is awesome!

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Indranil » 05 Aug 2019 03:41

Good to see the ashoka Leyland 8x8 in action.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby kit » 05 Aug 2019 04:33

Gyan wrote:IAF/DRDO showed interest in DIRCM in 2010 but thereafter complete silence. IAF continues on number of aircraft rather than optimization of war fighting capabilities.

Basic things like adequate Hangers both normal & hardened are not being built.


Hardened ones are being prioritised along the border regions

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Haridas » 05 Aug 2019 06:31

Prem Kumar wrote:I think its homegrown - might even be the same MMW seeker as that of Akash-1S

IIRC first candidate for mmW seeker is for Nag missile.

Is there any news of the mmW sensor being ready for test or close to deployment on any missile?

Akash-1S is with seeker/sensor, but I am sure it is not mmW seeker yet. IMHO its likely a Ku band seeker.

Added later: Ahhh... the image (post by srai above) state it is indeed Ku band seeker.
Last edited by Haridas on 05 Aug 2019 06:47, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Haridas » 05 Aug 2019 06:41

Gyan wrote:My guess is that

R-27 are IR guided long range missiles perhaps with datalink, 100km?. Though can be ultra long range RF seeker missiles, 170km?

IAF always had interest in VLR BVR AAMs since 1980s. But Pak will also get something equivalent from China

We need to invest in other aids like DIRCM, Sat Comms, towed decoys, independent flying decoys, advanced jammers etc.


Instead of reactive or progressive evolutionary thinking IAF needs disruptive thinking. (think a step ahead of Chinese and Porkies)

I would rather have IAF focus on getting in hand subsonic stealth UAV that guard forward lines and capable to launch AA missiles. Mind it that such steal UAV are bit harder than stealth fighter becuase its stealth need to be in both L and X band; but subsonic air-frame makes is more relaxed than combat aircraft.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby souravB » 05 Aug 2019 07:26

Haridas wrote:IIRC first candidate for mmW seeker is for Nag missile.

Is there any news of the mmW sensor being ready for test or close to deployment on any missile?

here

Haridas wrote:
Instead of reactive or progressive evolutionary thinking IAF needs disruptive thinking. (think a step ahead of Chinese and Porkies)

I would rather have IAF focus on getting in hand subsonic stealth UAV that guard forward lines and capable to launch AA missiles.

I think you just described the avenger drone. IAF, as per reports was/is still leaning towards procuring ~100 of it.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby srai » 05 Aug 2019 08:12

^^^
SANT -> mmW seeker

AFAIR, NAG is too small for a mmW seeker (current version). SANT is a bigger version of NAG/HELINA.

Image

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Prem Kumar » 05 Aug 2019 09:41

Any particular advantage/disadvantage of MMW vs Ku-band seekers?

1) Wiki tells me that MMW seekers suffer more atmospheric attenuation. Is that why they're not preferred for A2A or SAM applications?
2) If so, why is MMW preferred for an ATGM role vs Ku-band? Better resolution?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby prabhug » 06 Aug 2019 12:20

QR SAM is going to have slant launcher ??? Cna it operate on a battery or group

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby srai » 06 Aug 2019 19:29

prabhug wrote:QR SAM is going to have slant launcher ??? Cna it operate on a battery or group

Image

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Rakesh » 06 Aug 2019 20:06

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/115 ... 96992?s=20 ---> IGMDP quite literally created a military-industrial base in India, besides making DRDO very capable in the development of both strategic and tactical missile systems. And today, you can see that a range of DRDO developed missile systems are entering production.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/115 ... 61665?s=20 ---> W.r.t the initial IGMDP 'suite'
1. NAG : Has finally entered production, but other ATGMS are also in development which will see production.
2. Agni-TD: This was always a demonstrator but a harbinger of much to come.
3. Prithvi: Produced in sizeable no.s with tranche improvements.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/115 ... 41088?s=20 ---->
4. Akash: Is seeing true mass production with new improved versions in the offing.
5. Trishul: The one project held by dalals as an example of 'failure'. It actually yielded critical insights into Ka-band guidance tech.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/115 ... 69665?s=20 ---> The Prithvi SRBM uses earth-storable propellants and the missile can be kept fuelled for half a decade. So, this argument about its logistics trail is an old and flawed view and betrays a certain mindset.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Kanson » 06 Aug 2019 20:29

Prem Kumar wrote:Any particular advantage/disadvantage of MMW vs Ku-band seekers?

1) Wiki tells me that MMW seekers suffer more atmospheric attenuation. Is that why they're not preferred for A2A or SAM applications?
2) If so, why is MMW preferred for an ATGM role vs Ku-band? Better resolution?

Mmw is much like IIR. Ku band doppler.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Kanson » 06 Aug 2019 20:31

abhik wrote:
JayS wrote:Sjha tweets - XRSAM has entered test phase.

Wow, that's a pleasant surprise. Is test phase == test launch soon? Also what do we know about this system till date? All i remember is talk of 200-300 km range missile a few years back and then nothing more.

Previous govt engaged in tech transfer of long range sam seeker.


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