Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

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Kanson
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Kanson » 31 Aug 2019 23:41

Haridas wrote:
Prem Kumar wrote:Any particular advantage/disadvantage of MMW vs Ku-band seekers?

1) Wiki tells me that MMW seekers suffer more atmospheric attenuation. Is that why they're not preferred for A2A or SAM applications?
2) If so, why is MMW preferred for an ATGM role vs Ku-band? Better resolution?

mmW seeker is ideal for very small diameter missiles that require good spatial (angular) resolution RF imaging.
Not to mention, super wide bandwidth available for LPI.

If we go by the reports on Indian experience of this seeker, it is actually the reverse i.e. on the small diameter part. If you any insight, you could throw some light?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Kanson » 01 Sep 2019 00:15

Karan M wrote:Incredible video. 2 of the panelists were gold! The journalist as usual..halfway house. But what an info packed program. Thanks VinodTK.

The gentleman not only acknowledged the learning from Trishul but also from that of Maitri project. Interesting where we keep saying that Maitri project was cancelled.

srai wrote:^^^
A Desi MICA IR/RF

Infact Maitri program involves tech transfer of Mica missile as reported. France demonstrated land based Mica (naval) first to Indian audience.

May be, if it is not too much stretching , can we say, post that, india went with Qrsam & france with next gen Mica extended range?

JayS wrote:
I have already said somewhere that I would like to see Astra's IIR version along with the RF version. But in current airframe, its not agile enough for being a CCM. We need a fresh airframe IMO.

Sir, You are aware that the first iteration of Astra looked much like Mica in apperance. Mica is a near bvr missile but retains CCM capabilities. It is very clear what Astra team is trying to achieve.
While Mica for its wing-body characteristics do have TVC FOR CCM, Astra MK1, changed to Mid body wings as it doesnt have TVC, as far as i know. It is also a big learning experience.

At alt where dog fights happens, with head on ~40 km range Astra is a near BVR missile. So its body/airframe is designed for CCM with BVR capabilities.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Parasu » 01 Sep 2019 00:37

VinodTK wrote:Security Scan - QRSAM- Quick Reaction Surface-to-Air Missile

Thank you for the video. :)

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Gyan » 01 Sep 2019 19:20

Asraam seems to have good maneuvering capabilities without TVC, Mid body fins or side firing motors. This means that future BVR missiles might be dual use as CCM + BVR.

While BVR itself will morf into VLR-BVR

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ramana » 02 Sep 2019 07:43

ASRAAM has TVC of the nozzle.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby John » 02 Sep 2019 10:37

Infact Maitri program involves tech transfer of Mica missile as reported. France demonstrated land based Mica (naval) first to Indian audience.

I thought SR SAM will be entirely new missile and the main transfer of tech will be the vertical launch mechanism.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Prem Kumar » 04 Sep 2019 23:50

VinodTK wrote:Security Scan - QRSAM- Quick Reaction Surface-to-Air Missile



Amazing video! The Army gents were great. The journalist was a qtiya, as always. A few big takeaways:

1) DRDO learnt a lot from failures like Trishul and Maitri
2) QRSAM is in a different league, compared to MRSAM, LRSAM or Akash
3) BFSR is optimized to track fast, low flying drones, helis etc
4) Its a tri-service missile: IAF will use it (presumably - he said its classified) to defend airbases against cruise missile threats from China and IN will use it in the Trishul/Barak-1 mode

Looks like DRDO has built a world-class missile system. It will probably spawn a family of missiles.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ramana » 05 Sep 2019 03:06

KaranM, Can DRDO use the FPA chip from IITB for own version of WVR missile?
And who do the specs compare to the ASRAAM chip?
ramana wrote:...

Link to the original April 2017 Current Science paper

https://www.currentscience.ac.in/Volume ... 7/1568.pdf

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ashishvikas » 05 Sep 2019 13:25

In a big boost for defence forces, Cabinet clears procurement of Akash missile system at Rs 5500 crore

According to a report by Times Now channel, the Cabinet cleared the purchase of Air Defence missile system Akash worth Rs 5500 crore. The clearance from the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) was came a few days ago, however, the announcement regarding the clearance was made on Thursday.

https://www.timesnownews.com/amp/india/ ... ssion=true

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Manish_Sharma » 05 Sep 2019 21:30

https://twitter.com/IndianDefenceRA/sta ... 92193?s=20

In a bid to boost to Air Force's capability to take down enemy fighter aircraft, the government has cleared the procurement of six squadrons of the indigenous Akash air defence missile systems worth Rs 5,000 crore to be deployed on the borders with Pakistan and China. (ET)

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 05 Sep 2019 23:13

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 994088.cms

During an exercise in Surya Lanka held last year, the Akash missile system was tested along with all other air defence missiles including Israeli ones in the Air Force inventory and it came out as the best performer.


The missile proposal has been cleared for the Air Force after the service felt the need for more such weapon systems in wake of the February 27 post-Balakot strike scenario when Pakistanis has launched a counter-attack.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 05 Sep 2019 23:16

Somewhere, Dr Prahlada has a smile on his lips after saving this program and making sure the nation got the right product. Salute.

https://www.rediff.com/news/column/why- ... 170908.htm

In repeated trials up to 2004, the air force rejected the Akash for specious reasons, even as the missile repeatedly struck its targets.

Eventually, in an incident in 2004 that has gone into DRDO folklore, the Akash project director, Dr Prahlada, readied the missile for a final do-or-die attempt to demonstrate its accuracy.

A Nishant drone was flown, trailing a target sleeve that the Akash was to engage. But then, just as the missile was readying to fire, the sleeve detached itself from the Nishant and floated to the ground.

With the air force evaluation team ready to declare the trial a failure and doom the Akash to oblivion, Dr Prahlada boldly designated the Nishant drone as the target.

The Akash missile slammed into the tiny Nishant 20 kilometres away, utterly destroying the Rs 1.5 crore drone.

Dr Prahlada had to field audit objections for years, but the Akash had proved its effectiveness against a target far smaller than a combat aircraft.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ramana » 05 Sep 2019 23:47

Karan M wrote:Somewhere, Dr Prahlada has a smile on his lips after saving this program and making sure the nation got the right product. Salute.

https://www.rediff.com/news/column/why- ... 170908.htm

In repeated trials up to 2004, the air force rejected the Akash for specious reasons, even as the missile repeatedly struck its targets.

Eventually, in an incident in 2004 that has gone into DRDO folklore, the Akash project director, Dr Prahlada, readied the missile for a final do-or-die attempt to demonstrate its accuracy.

A Nishant drone was flown, trailing a target sleeve that the Akash was to engage. But then, just as the missile was readying to fire, the sleeve detached itself from the Nishant and floated to the ground.

With the air force evaluation team ready to declare the trial a failure and doom the Akash to oblivion, Dr Prahlada boldly designated the Nishant drone as the target.

The Akash missile slammed into the tiny Nishant 20 kilometres away, utterly destroying the Rs 1.5 crore drone.

Dr Prahlada had to field audit objections for years, but the Akash had proved its effectiveness against a target far smaller than a combat aircraft.



What a bunch of fatherch*ds.

I really would like to name and shame these people.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Aditya_V » 06 Sep 2019 16:59

https://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/npc/2019/August/din-08august2019.pdf

India has successfully developed the ‘Astra’, its first all-weather Beyond Visual Range (BVR) Airto-Air Missile (AAM) and leaped into a group of few nations that have a weapon system of this capability and performance


The Indian Ku-band active radar seeker was developed by DRDO and is now fully functional. This form-fit indigenous seeker has now been installed on all Astra missiles. Thus, today India has its first indigenously developed BVR AAM with indigenous active radar seeker. The Indian Air Force (IAF) being satisfied with Astra’s development and performance, is in the process of placing initial order for 100 missiles in the prototype version on the manufacturer Bharat Dynamics Limited (BDL). Induction of this weapons system into the IAF will commence later this year[/quote] :D

Performance and kill ranges of the Astra Mark 1 is slightly better than the BVR AAM currently employed by our adversaries. The Astra is already integrated on the Su-30MKI and the IAF will certainly integrate this weapons system with the upgraded Mirage 2000, the MiG-29, light combat aircraft Tejas and may be with the Rafale jets that are expected to start arriving in September this year.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Aditya_V » 06 Sep 2019 17:04

https://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/npc/2019/August/din-08august2019.pdf

MoD to decide on buying two BrahMos missile coastal batteries to tackle enemy warships


"The two mobile missile coastal batteries have to be acquired for the Navy. The Navy would deploy the Rs 1400 crore BrahMos supersonic cruise missile batteries deployed on the Tatra trucks close to major cities from where it can destroy any incoming enemy warship in case it is posing any threat," government sources said.


Any idea why Tatra trucks and Not TATA or Ashok Leyland?

In the DAC meeting, Singh is scheduled to take a call on the acquisition of 14 medium-lift choppers for the Indian Coast Guard which are likely to cost more than Rs 7,000 crore.


What are these Medium Lift helicopters for the Coast Guard? are they Airbus EC 725?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby vasu raya » 06 Sep 2019 19:52

Aditya_V wrote:Any idea why Tatra trucks and Not TATA or Ashok Leyland?




Except for kickbacks and BEML doing a shoddy job of technology assimilation they were good and were proofed as missile carriers in road tests by DRDO

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Kartik » 07 Sep 2019 03:49

Lots of details on the Astra BVRAAM from Air Marshal (retd.) SBP Sinha, the man who led the MRCA negotiations earlier. Coming from him, the views expressed carry a lot of weight.

India successfully develops its first Beyond Visual Range Air to Air Missile

During its development, the design of Astra missile went through several iterative changes for improving its control, guidance and propulsion systems as also reduction in weight. Ground testing of the Astra began in December 2012 and the missile was cleared for captive flight trials on the Su-30MKI combat platform in April 2013. The first Astra missile was launched from the Su-30MKI in May 2014 and so far, 27 missiles have been test fired to ascertain and validate its performance.

The Astra is designed to carry 15 kg high explosive prefragmented warhead, which is activated by a Radio Proximity Fuse. The missile has good Electronic Counter-Countermeasure (ECCM) to enable unconstrained operation in an Electronic Countermeasure (ECM) environment.

The Astra Mark 1, which successfully completed the trials recently, has a maximum head-on launch range of 100 km, a speed of 4.5 Mach and is cleared for launch up to an altitude of 20 km (66,000 ft). The Astra could be launched either by the mother aircraft or fired in buddy mode.

The extensive and rigorous trials have successfully validated the Astra missile’s warhead capability, its maximum launch ranges against both head-on and manoeuvring targets, its long-range target engagement capability, clear missile-separation at supersonic speeds, launch under high ‘g’ forces and multiple missile launches at multiple targets. During the trials, the Astra missiles were launched across the entire flight envelope of the Su-30MKI and all of these successfully engaged, hit and destroyed all assigned manoeuvring and non-manoeuvring aerial targets besides meeting with all mission objectives.


After launch, the Astra initially uses ‘Inertial Mid-Course Guidance’ through a secure data-link from the mother aircraft followed by ‘Active Radar Homing’ from its seeker head for terminal guidance.

To absorb delays in the development process of the indigenous active radar seeker, it was decided to develop the Astra missile with Russian ‘Agat 9B1103M’ active radar seeker for terminal guidance. The entire D&D of Astra including the firing trials up to the year 2017, were conducted with the Russian active radar seeker. The decision to use the Russian seeker for D&D and trials phases was a very prudent one as it enabled concurrent engineering and development of both, the missile and its active radar seeker independently. The Indian Ku-band active radar seeker was developed by DRDO and is now fully functional. This form-fit indigenous seeker has now been installed on all Astra missiles. Thus, today India has its first indigenously developed BVR AAM with indigenous active radar seeker. The Indian Air Force (IAF) being satisfied with Astra’s development and performance, is in the process of placing initial order for 100 missiles in the prototype version on the manufacturer Bharat Dynamics Limited (BDL). Induction of this wapons system into the IAF will commence later this year.

Performance and kill ranges of the Astra Mark 1 is slightly better than the BVR AAM currently employed by our adversaries. The Astra is already integrated on the Su-30MKI and the IAF will certainly integrate this weapons system with the upgraded Mirage 2000, the MiG-29, light combat aircraft Tejas and may be with the Rafale jets that are expected to start arriving in September this year.
The Astra is the first Beyond Visual Range, Air-to-Air Missile that is designed, developed and manufactured by the Indian aerospace industry. Its successful induction will greatly boost the BVR combat capability of the IAF.


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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby srai » 07 Sep 2019 04:19

The Astra Mark 1, which successfully completed the trials recently, has a maximum head-on launch range of 100 km, a speed of 4.5 Mach and is cleared for launch up to an altitude of 20 km (66,000 ft).


Original: 80km head-on
Image

Current: 100km head-on
Image

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby fanne » 07 Sep 2019 05:16

why the order for indigenous system is always so less...are they proofing the manufacturing process - The missile was anyway tested and passed. Will the 100 go another round of testing before bulk order is given or there is no plan B and 100 is the bulk order?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby srai » 07 Sep 2019 05:22

^^^
Agree.

50 —> so called “production” setup
100 —> labeled as “initial” order
??? —> ???


Even though in the article it states:
The extensive and rigorous trials have successfully validated the Astra missile’s warhead capability, its maximum launch ranges against both head-on and manoeuvring targets, its long-range target engagement capability, clear missile-separation at supersonic speeds, launch under high ‘g’ forces and multiple missile launches at multiple targets. During the trials, the Astra missiles were launched across the entire flight envelope of the Su-30MKI and all of these successfully engaged, hit and destroyed all assigned manoeuvring and non-manoeuvring aerial targets besides meeting with all mission objectives.
...
Performance and kill ranges of the Astra Mark 1 is slightly better than the BVR AAM currently employed by our adversaries.


All hope lies in the Meteor ... a fabled savior from magical distant shores :twisted:

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby manjgu » 07 Sep 2019 07:48

having ur own stuff is so important...performance will really be validated in actual combat, but having own stuff in large numbers gives so much edge to the AF. Cost wise also , it will be much cheaper to fire off desi missiles. dont have to think too much about costs and replacements.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby agupta » 07 Sep 2019 08:45

fanne wrote:why the order for indigenous system is always so less...are they proofing the manufacturing process - The missile was anyway tested and passed. Will the 100 go another round of testing before bulk order is given or there is no plan B and 100 is the bulk order?



Same reason why no bulk orders are given in advance for an in-development system... hold the agency accountable @ milestones for successful delivery in what technology/capability its responsibility is.

The manufacturing "house" has to develop/sharpen/prove its production (and subsequent support) capabilities too - and the conditional orders make them accountable or responsive. I find the argument that bulk orders are the only reason and absolutely necessary as a bit bogus - we on BRF often seem to confuse "PRoject/Order" outlays for base costs.... have you all heard of any PSU going through furloughs or layoffs when there was no active production ? What exactly are they up to all those months or years since none of that time utilization is reflected in fast cost reductions once a line goes active? Its only people who have limited understanding of production technologies that will claim a design freeze for all LRUs is necessary to mature and optimize most of the manufacturing procedures. In theory, license manufacturing is THE first mechanism production tech ToT.... the Israelis, Chinese et al have all come up the value chain this way; you won't of course get ALL the recipes but you SHOULD be able to pick up a lot of the non-crown jewel stuff this way.

WE've heard recently of HAL expecting "Cost escalations" for the SU-30MKI... in the 21st century this organization behaves like its the 70s when "import substitution" was the mantra. The lack of appreciation for manufacturing/production as a technology is widespread...every other manufacturing sector expects a high % reduction in year over year manufacturing cost as a result of improved yields, efficiencies and learning. But in organizations where even Class 4 jobs are auctioned off for lakhs, its no surprise that the indigenous costs are so high... I suspect a large factor is the lousy efficiency and low yields in the HAL factories.

As an old wag once put it to me just to make a point - "When you sign up for committed advanced payments over the next 20 years to your nearest govt hospital for all future surgeries for your family members with no conditions in between in support of local capability development, we should talk". He was being facetious, but I thought he had a legit point.

Corporatization and privatization will help change this... lets hope this push works out in Modi 2.0
Last edited by agupta on 07 Sep 2019 09:12, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby agupta » 07 Sep 2019 08:59

srai wrote:^^^
Agree.

50 —> so called “production” setup
100 —> labeled as “initial” order
??? —> ???


Even though in the article it states:
The extensive and rigorous trials have successfully validated the Astra missile’s warhead capability, its maximum launch ranges against both head-on and manoeuvring targets, its long-range target engagement capability, clear missile-separation at supersonic speeds, launch under high ‘g’ forces and multiple missile launches at multiple targets. During the trials, the Astra missiles were launched across the entire flight envelope of the Su-30MKI and all of these successfully engaged, hit and destroyed all assigned manoeuvring and non-manoeuvring aerial targets besides meeting with all mission objectives.
...
Performance and kill ranges of the Astra Mark 1 is slightly better than the BVR AAM currently employed by our adversaries.


All hope lies in the Meteor ... a fabled savior from magical distant shores :twisted:


Its strange how folks never seem to wonder why there are different phrases "technology demonstrator" vs. "EMD" and different scales for TRLs and MRLs ? Weird form of reverse brochuritis here on BRF in recent years...with this expectation that technology and concept demonstrations automagically become in-service successes - and anyone not believing in this is an import-loving traitor.

If you want hangar queen defence systems that will win you Forum or Powerpoint wars, you can declare things are done when the technology and concepts are proven...to win real ones you need to
#1develop the technologies,
#2 then the system/ systems (integration) of the concepts, (both design and ops)
#3 then the realization at scale and at cost,
#4 then the Service/O&M capabilities....
and that's when you have "real" war-winning weapon systems. India has made enormous progress on #1 and #2 but our #3 achilles heel in the PSUs limits rate of progress.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby srai » 07 Sep 2019 11:49

^^^
By all indications, Astra Mk1 is ready for induction and has been accepted by the end user. But the orders have not come forth. Hence, your point about being stuck in #3. You need larger orders to scale the industry and provide optimal support. Low orders in piecemeal fashion ain’t gonna do that.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby abhik » 07 Sep 2019 12:47

Any idea if the new Akash order will use the variant of the missile with active seeker?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby mody » 07 Sep 2019 15:01

The requirement floated for Akash missiles for the IAF, three years ago, for 7 additional squadrons. The number has come down to 6 in the proposed order.
No mention of whether it will be the MK1 or the MK1S variant. The MK1S, has also reportedly finished the development trials.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby nam » 07 Sep 2019 15:08

There are two programs in the pipeline: Akash NG and QRSAM. So no point adding lot of Akash, when these two programs are coming up.

Let's face it, Akash NG/QRSAM with modern AESA radar and better systems, versus Akash.. it becomes a no-brainier.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Avinandan » 07 Sep 2019 17:35

mody wrote:The requirement floated for Akash missiles for the IAF, three years ago, for 7 additional squadrons. The number has come down to 6 in the proposed order.
No mention of whether it will be the MK1 or the MK1S variant. The MK1S, has also reportedly finished the development trials.


Apparently, the recent IAF order is for the MK1 only.

Saurav Jha (@SJha1618) Tweeted:
With six more Akash SAM squadrons cleared for @IAF_MCC, all that is needed now is for the order of two more regiments for the Indian Army to come through. The IA will get the active RF seeker equipped 1S variant. https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/116 ... 96034?s=17

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby srai » 07 Sep 2019 18:04

^^^
The seeker can be added as part of an upgrade to Mk1. Same missile Mk1 and Mk1S. We may see partial Mk1S upgrades and remaining retained as Mk1 for a combo mix. May offer some advantages to a battery with mixed missiles in two guidance modes (command and active). Mk1 efficacy is well proven.

NG completely different missile.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 07 Sep 2019 19:05

Rest of the stuff hinges on this

have you all heard of any PSU going through furloughs or layoffs when there was no active production ?


Which is patently wrong, as the Astra and every DRDO product is full of MSME made gear. Production delays sabotage them. The Astra and many other products have gone through painstaking eval already and the PSUs mostly act as integrators.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 07 Sep 2019 19:10

srai wrote:^^^
By all indications, Astra Mk1 is ready for induction and has been accepted by the end user. But the orders have not come forth. Hence, your point about being stuck in #3. You need larger orders to scale the industry and provide optimal support. Low orders in piecemeal fashion ain’t gonna do that.


Precisely. Ask anyone in Indian industry and they dont want to touch defence orders with a barge pole thanks to the sheer stupidity of delayed orders. There is literally no coherence in the system.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 08 Sep 2019 01:38

nam wrote:There are two programs in the pipeline: Akash NG and QRSAM. So no point adding lot of Akash, when these two programs are coming up.

Let's face it, Akash NG/QRSAM with modern AESA radar and better systems, versus Akash.. it becomes a no-brainier.


Akash Mk1/1S are ready, the other systems arent. There is the key difference.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Picklu » 08 Sep 2019 05:10

nam wrote:There are two programs in the pipeline: Akash NG and QRSAM. So no point adding lot of Akash, when these two programs are coming up.

Let's face it, Akash NG/QRSAM with modern AESA radar and better systems, versus Akash.. it becomes a no-brainier.


This is exactly how desi programs are starved of orders. There is always a better product in the horizon. I wonder why such logics are not employed with foreign equipments. I mean 5th gen is on the horizon so why IAF ordered so many Su30MKI? Armata is in horizon so why so many t-90?

The bottom line is we need to maintain a bare minimum force structure and plan systems development with certain number of induction to maintain it.
If the development is successful, the order of mk1 must be placed to ensure
a. Manufacturing capabilities are retained within the country and
b. The financial gain is accrued within our economy

Any future development can happen as block improvement of the current set of inducted systems. Any system will go through at least 3 to 4 such block improvements within its life cycle so there is no reason to hold back the induction for something that is just coming up. Anything that is coming up will need at least a decade to reach deployment state.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby SSridhar » 08 Sep 2019 08:02

Manish_Sharma wrote:https://twitter.com/IndianDefenceRA/status/1169621278992392193?s=20

In a bid to boost to Air Force's capability to take down enemy fighter aircraft, the government has cleared the procurement of six squadrons of the indigenous Akash air defence missile systems. . .

Sometime in c.2015, IAF said it wanted 16 more squadrons of Akash to completely replace the SA-3/Pechora. These six are part of the 16?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby rohitvats » 08 Sep 2019 14:52

Picklu wrote:
nam wrote:There are two programs in the pipeline: Akash NG and QRSAM. So no point adding lot of Akash, when these two programs are coming up.

Let's face it, Akash NG/QRSAM with modern AESA radar and better systems, versus Akash.. it becomes a no-brainier.


This is exactly how desi programs are starved of orders. There is always a better product in the horizon. I wonder why such logics are not employed with foreign equipments. I mean 5th gen is on the horizon so why IAF ordered so many Su30MKI? Armata is in horizon so why so many t-90?

The bottom line is we need to maintain a bare minimum force structure and plan systems development with certain number of induction to maintain it.
If the development is successful, the order of mk1 must be placed to ensure
a. Manufacturing capabilities are retained within the country and
b. The financial gain is accrued within our economy

Any future development can happen as block improvement of the current set of inducted systems. Any system will go through at least 3 to 4 such block improvements within its life cycle so there is no reason to hold back the induction for something that is just coming up. Anything that is coming up will need at least a decade to reach deployment state.


The above two posts are prime example of the kind of illogical and stupid discussions which have permeated across BRF military forum.

Poster 1:

Puts out his absolutely fact free opinion as the most likely scenario of what's happening with respect to a specific weapon system. Never mind that there is enough literature available, including a video posted few pages back, which talks about difference between Akash Mk1/1S/NG and QRSAM. And why IA wants QRSAM.

Poster 2:

Uses the absolutely fact free, and illogical argument by Poster 1, to go on a completely different tangent and posts a rant which has no basis in facts or figures.

Soon, we'll have someone pick-up the post by Poster 2 to further 'evolve' this topic and another 'urban legend' will emerge from hallowed portals of BRF.

----------------------------------------------

No wonder the Forum has been reduced to the level it presently stands at!

nam
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Posts: 2399
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby nam » 08 Sep 2019 15:13

rohitvats wrote:Poster 1:

Puts out his absolutely fact free opinion as the most likely scenario of what's happening with respect to a specific weapon system. Never mind that there is enough literature available, including a video posted few pages back, which talks about difference between Akash Mk1/1S/NG and QRSAM. And why IA wants QRSAM.


My reference to QRSAM & Akash NG is towards IAF, not IA. The approval was provided to IAF purchase and the I provided a possible theory on why it may have been reduced from 7 to 6. Nothing to do with IA.

It is obvious that IAF has certain SAM force level approved. Unless someone can convince me that IAF is allowed to have 15 Akash, 15 Akash NG, 15 QRSAM sqd? GoI is not that generous.

IAF would plan accordingly, so that modern systems are inducted in more numbers. QRSAM will go in to user trials next year. Would IAF prefer QRSAM over Akash, given the advantages it has? Obviously. Simple fact is SAM rounds in canister, provide more flexibility over large SAM like Akash.

Similarly with Akash NG. Why would it induct Akash in very large number, when it might face the possibility of obsolescence in coming decade and the need to upgrade Akash? It would prefer to go with Akash NG or ORSAM based on the role.

So IAF would plan the size of the purchase, where it is adequate in numbers and more modern systems are coming in to production.

Not sure why an assumption that these are fact free.

Manish_Sharma
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Posts: 4146
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Manish_Sharma » 08 Sep 2019 16:09

SSridhar wrote:
Manish_Sharma wrote:https://twitter.com/IndianDefenceRA/status/1169621278992392193?s=20

In a bid to boost to Air Force's capability to take down enemy fighter aircraft, the government has cleared the procurement of six squadrons of the indigenous Akash air defence missile systems. . .

Sometime in c.2015, IAF said it wanted 16 more squadrons of Akash to completely replace the SA-3/Pechora. These six are part of the 16?


This report is talking of total 15 squadrons:
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 994088.cms

The three-year-old proposal for the acquisition of the Akash missiles is being seen as the whole-hearted acceptance of the indigenous missile system among the armed forces as this clearance would increase the number of Akash systems ordered for the Indian Air Force to 15, the sources said.
The initial order for the Akash by the Indian Air Force was for two squadrons and the increased orders show the faith it has in the system, they said.

During an exercise in Surya Lanka held last year, the Akash missile system was tested along with all other air defence missiles including Israeli ones in the Indian Air Force inventory and it came out as the best performer.
Akash missile has been chosen by the Defence Ministry over foreign systems also as the government scrapped an Army tender worth over Rs 17,000 crore to favour the Akash.

The missile proposal has been cleared for the Air Force after the service felt the need for more such weapon systems in wake of the February 27 post-Balakot strike scenario when Pakistanis has launched a counter-attack.
With more Akash systems on the ground, next time Pakistan tries anything like this, it will have to face the ground-based missiles also along with the air defence fighters.


^ This article talks of 15 Squadrons

Aditya_V
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Aditya_V » 08 Sep 2019 17:16

Here is an article from last year saying 8 Squadrons had been inducted into the IAF

https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/news/army-to-get-enhanced-akash-missiles/article23776393.ece

Picklu
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Posts: 1977
Joined: 25 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Picklu » 08 Sep 2019 17:21

rohitvats wrote:
Picklu wrote:
This is exactly how desi programs are starved of orders. There is always a better product in the horizon. I wonder why such logics are not employed with foreign equipments. I mean 5th gen is on the horizon so why IAF ordered so many Su30MKI? Armata is in horizon so why so many t-90?

The bottom line is we need to maintain a bare minimum force structure and plan systems development with certain number of induction to maintain it.
If the development is successful, the order of mk1 must be placed to ensure
a. Manufacturing capabilities are retained within the country and
b. The financial gain is accrued within our economy

Any future development can happen as block improvement of the current set of inducted systems. Any system will go through at least 3 to 4 such block improvements within its life cycle so there is no reason to hold back the induction for something that is just coming up. Anything that is coming up will need at least a decade to reach deployment state.


The above two posts are prime example of the kind of illogical and stupid discussions which have permeated across BRF military forum.

Poster 1:

Puts out his absolutely fact free opinion as the most likely scenario of what's happening with respect to a specific weapon system. Never mind that there is enough literature available, including a video posted few pages back, which talks about difference between Akash Mk1/1S/NG and QRSAM. And why IA wants QRSAM.

Poster 2:

Uses the absolutely fact free, and illogical argument by Poster 1, to go on a completely different tangent and posts a rant which has no basis in facts or figures.

Soon, we'll have someone pick-up the post by Poster 2 to further 'evolve' this topic and another 'urban legend' will emerge from hallowed portals of BRF.

----------------------------------------------

No wonder the Forum has been reduced to the level it presently stands at!


The quantum of orders for Arjun and Aakash over the timeline are facts themselves. Ignoring the piecemeal ordering after gap of decades is opinion.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18234
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 08 Sep 2019 18:48

There isnt that much difference ops wise between QRSAM and Akash Mk1S either if we get down to it.

In fact, the latter scores in altitude/ envelope ( QRSAM is optimized for a lower altitude coverage), the former in mobility.

Plans change, IAF can well re-evaluate its eqpt plans based on what happens. I well remember how the DRDO 3D CAR development had IAF drop a LLTR requirement RFP, and have a Rohini developed instead.

In short, I see nothing particularly wrong about nams conjecture (bar availability) and no reason for being upset at his point either.

Other cases of services adopting what was available to existing needs is the ballooning Su30 purchase, from retiring MiGs to Jaguars. It's been our answer for everything.


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