Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

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ArjunPandit
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ArjunPandit » 21 Nov 2019 15:41

Not sure about DRDO, but IDRW has bested itself today
http://idrw.org/indigenously-developed- ... sha-coast/

deshmukh ji, prithvi 2 tests are usually a cover for something for quite some time...

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby tsarkar » 21 Nov 2019 16:27

SSridhar wrote:The thing that really caught my eye is the following:
Development of Agni Series of missiles has been completed and are in the process of induction.

What does it mean?

India has a self imposed moratorium of not developing missiles of ranges greater than 5500 km covering China and Middle East but excluding Europe and Western Russia including Moscow.
Two additional developments were pending - Canister Cold Launch and MIRV. The statement indicates both these developments are complete.

For land based use, we'll have A5, A4 for Pakistan and DF-21 like tactical uses and Pralay for short range work. A3, A2, A1 & P2 will be expended in testing over time.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ArjunPandit » 21 Nov 2019 16:30

tsarkar wrote:
SSridhar wrote:The thing that really caught my eye is the following:

What does it mean?

India has a self imposed moratorium of not developing missiles of ranges greater than 5500 km covering China and Middle East but excluding Europe and Western Russia including Moscow.
Two additional developments were pending - Canister Cold Launch and MIRV. The statement indicates both these developments are complete.

For land based use, we'll have A5, A4 for Pakistan and DF-21 like tactical uses and Pralay for short range work. A3, A2, A1 & P2 will be expended in testing over time.

it caught my eye too. However, I was of the opinion, that a new class of missiles would come.Was Surya, it it ever existed beyond the dreams of jingos, a separate class ?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby kit » 21 Nov 2019 18:04

ArjunPandit wrote:
tsarkar wrote:India has a self imposed moratorium of not developing missiles of ranges greater than 5500 km covering China and Middle East but excluding Europe and Western Russia including Moscow.
Two additional developments were pending - Canister Cold Launch and MIRV. The statement indicates both these developments are complete.

For land based use, we'll have A5, A4 for Pakistan and DF-21 like tactical uses and Pralay for short range work. A3, A2, A1 & P2 will be expended in testing over time.

it caught my eye too. However, I was of the opinion, that a new class of missiles would come.Was Surya, it it ever existed beyond the dreams of jingos, a separate class ?


that's more like the Brahmos having a 250 m range!
looks good for geopolitrics :lol:

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ArjunPandit » 21 Nov 2019 18:05

kitji Why dont you believe the DRDO chief...he's been the beacon of truth... :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: if you dont trust him..then do not trust him for the moratorium on nooks

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby SSridhar » 22 Nov 2019 07:54

A Deshmukh wrote:what is the significance of firing 2 SS missiles simultaneously?

Gives better survivability for the second missile.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Pratyush » 22 Nov 2019 14:52

SSridhar wrote:
A Deshmukh wrote:what is the significance of firing 2 SS missiles simultaneously?

Gives better survivability for the second missile.


Or it could be a test of command and control of attempting to engage multiple targets in a strategic context.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby mody » 22 Nov 2019 15:03

For Pakistan and military targets in Xinxiang and Tibet, the A1 itself should be enough. A4 and A5 are to cover the rest of China. A2 and A3 will be rendered obsolete, once A4 and A5 become fully operational. Even with regards to the A4, I don't understand, why we don't go for a land equivalent of the K4 missile, instead of he pencil thin A4 missile. A longer missile is more difficult to transport and maybe a little more difficult to have a cannisterised version of.
Would love to see A5 in its cannister and high mobility 8x8 Tatra truck rolling down the raj path for the republic day parade.

There was supposed to be a new development with regards to the A1 missile, with a new A1P as per rumours. Was hoping for a smaller and lighter all composite A1 missile, cannisterized with NEPE based high energy propellent. With a 150 Kt petal (hope a 350-500 Kg version exists), would have range of 1,500-1,800 Kms.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby kit » 22 Nov 2019 15:19

ArjunPandit wrote:kitji Why dont you believe the DRDO chief...he's been the beacon of truth... :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: if you dont trust him..then do not trust him for the moratorium on nooks


Personally i do think India has the capability to do subcritical nuke tests

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby sarabpal.s » 24 Nov 2019 16:07

https://twitter.com/sarabpal_singh/stat ... 55712?s=19

Its is Surya missile photo published in education institutions add today

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby John » 24 Nov 2019 22:28


instead of he pencil thin A4 missile.


It’s small frontal RCS will make it harder for ABM to intercept it.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby lakshmanM » 25 Nov 2019 09:29

John wrote:

instead of he pencil thin A4 missile.


It’s small frontal RCS will make it harder for ABM to intercept it.

The shape of the payload fairing (K4) doesn't have anything to do with reentry. It's just a protective cowling which is ejected when the missile leaves the lower atmosphere

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby hnair » 25 Nov 2019 10:24

mody wrote:Even with regards to the A4, I don't understand, why we don't go for a land equivalent of the K4 missile, instead of he pencil thin A4 missile


The pencil-thin Agni 4 plays an important role as that was supposed to have been played by Midgetman in the US arsenal. Of the light (Midgetman), Medium(Minuteman) and heavy (MX), the light one is the most challenging, due to the road mobility aspect. Midgetman (13.5 t) vs Agni 4 (17t), the weight difference is barely around 4 tons and khan obviously has far better optimization skills about mass fraction etc than a recent entrant like India. But nevertheless, Agni 4 class is a great missile that can be dispersed and made survivable. That was the original purpose of Midgetman too - a more survivable land-based ICBM that can disperse in their own HMMT launchers. But since paranoia came down, it got canned along with heavier MX, leaving only the trusty old Minuteman variants. India does not have such treaty limitations

Agni 4 range with 800kg payload says 4000kms. With 150-200kg, all bets are off. Maybe Haridas-saar can throw more info :)

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby mahadevbhu » 25 Nov 2019 11:01

Agni ranges are all BS. They are all ICBM's and can blow up Trump's mushharraf, but we don't like to broadcast that fact that they are all ICBMs.

Accuracy wise - we can aim stuff at the moon and mars, and have it reach THOSE distances accurately. So how our ICBM's are capable to perform is easy to fathom.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Indrajit » 25 Nov 2019 13:38

https://twitter.com/Aryanwarlord/status ... 97088?s=19

Surya makes it's appearance ☺️
Tweeted by ninjamonkey.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Thakur_B » 25 Nov 2019 14:07

^^ Is Surya model legit or just artists interpretation?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby mody » 25 Nov 2019 15:03

hnair wrote:
mody wrote:Even with regards to the A4, I don't understand, why we don't go for a land equivalent of the K4 missile, instead of he pencil thin A4 missile


The pencil-thin Agni 4 plays an important role as that was supposed to have been played by Midgetman in the US arsenal. Of the light (Midgetman), Medium(Minuteman) and heavy (MX), the light one is the most challenging, due to the road mobility aspect. Midgetman (13.5 t) vs Agni 4 (17t), the weight difference is barely around 4 tons and khan obviously has far better optimization skills about mass fraction etc than a recent entrant like India. But nevertheless, Agni 4 class is a great missile that can be dispersed and made survivable. That was the original purpose of Midgetman too - a more survivable land-based ICBM that can disperse in their own HMMT launchers. But since paranoia came down, it got canned along with heavier MX, leaving only the trusty old Minuteman variants. India does not have such treaty limitations

Agni 4 range with 800kg payload says 4000kms. With 150-200kg, all bets are off. Maybe Haridas-saar can throw more info :)


My argument was more about the total length of the Agni-4 missile, as compared to the K4 missile. Both have approximately the same range and weight. Both weigh about 17 tons, but the A4 is 20 meters long, as opposed to 12 meters for K4. A shorter missile, would be easier to transport and disperse. Also, easier to have it cannisterised. When the K4 already exists, why not derive a land based variant of the same, in place of Agni-4.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Aditya_V » 25 Nov 2019 15:13

K4 is probably much costlier and takes longer to produce perhaps?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karthik S » 25 Nov 2019 15:49

Thakur_B wrote:^^ Is Surya model legit or just artists interpretation?


What's more heartening is that the name that was going rounds for more than a decade has now come into open. That name was associated with 10,000 KM ICBM.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karthik S » 25 Nov 2019 15:52

mody wrote:
hnair wrote:
The pencil-thin Agni 4 plays an important role as that was supposed to have been played by Midgetman in the US arsenal. Of the light (Midgetman), Medium(Minuteman) and heavy (MX), the light one is the most challenging, due to the road mobility aspect. Midgetman (13.5 t) vs Agni 4 (17t), the weight difference is barely around 4 tons and khan obviously has far better optimization skills about mass fraction etc than a recent entrant like India. But nevertheless, Agni 4 class is a great missile that can be dispersed and made survivable. That was the original purpose of Midgetman too - a more survivable land-based ICBM that can disperse in their own HMMT launchers. But since paranoia came down, it got canned along with heavier MX, leaving only the trusty old Minuteman variants. India does not have such treaty limitations

Agni 4 range with 800kg payload says 4000kms. With 150-200kg, all bets are off. Maybe Haridas-saar can throw more info :)


My argument was more about the total length of the Agni-4 missile, as compared to the K4 missile. Both have approximately the same range and weight. Both weigh about 17 tons, but the A4 is 20 meters long, as opposed to 12 meters for K4. A shorter missile, would be easier to transport and disperse. Also, easier to have it cannisterised. When the K4 already exists, why not derive a land based variant of the same, in place of Agni-4.


SLBMs have lot more dimension constrain compared to land based missiles as the former needs to fit into confined space of a SSBN. There's no such requirement for land based missiles. By miniaturizing a IRBM to extent of SLBM logistics may get easier, but may be the cost benefit ratio doesn't warrant doing so.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby dinesha » 25 Nov 2019 16:03

Agni-III test on 30 November from Kalam Island
It will be another night test

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Prem Kumar » 25 Nov 2019 17:51

K-4 is a newer class of missile, with better technology than A-4. Over time, we may see canisterized, land-based K4s replacing our A4 stocks. Similar thing may happen with K-5 & A-5

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Vips » 25 Nov 2019 19:25

They should schedule the customary winter Agni 5 test also very soon.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby vishvak » 25 Nov 2019 19:39

but may be the cost benefit ratio doesn't warrant doing so

Launching from sea would be wiser if it saved time and avoid detection. OT, I was thinkin about several-dash-line starting from A&N and going deep into sea east of Vietnam where we can declare arbitrary sovereignty and our very own nuke testing location. Imagine a nuke incident and key players are silent about it, why should we also not conduct tests there, even if sub kiloton.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ramana » 25 Nov 2019 19:50

When range is increased by reducing weight if the payload the accelerations increase. This makes the entire vehicle design subject to new loads and environments. And higher accelerations could lead to structural changes.

Rocket science, not art.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Haridas » 25 Nov 2019 22:07

hnair wrote:
mody wrote:...... But nevertheless, Agni 4 class is a great missile that can be dispersed and made survivable. That was the original purpose of Midgetman too - a more survivable land-based ICBM that can disperse in their own HMMT launchers. But since paranoia came down, it got canned along with heavier MX, leaving only the trusty old Minuteman variants. India does not have such treaty limitations

Agni 4 range with 800kg payload says 4000kms. With 150-200kg, all bets are off. Maybe Haridas-saar can throw more info :)

Will do in few days. But note what Ramana says above. It's all about regression testing after making any non trivial change.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Indranil » 26 Nov 2019 02:48

Neither Agni II/IV, nor K4 are optimized designs for ground launched ballistic missiles.

Agni II was designed with the knowhow from 1990s. We had to get to 2000-3000 km capability as soon as possible with limited funding. We reused the first stage of the SLV! Agni IV is an iterative improvement of the Agni II. System level improvements have been done to improve accuracy and fault tolerance. The major performance driver come from the composite second stage casing boosting range from 3000 kms to 4000 kms.

On the other hand K4 missiles are technological advances and designed from scratch. But they have the restrictions of an SLBM, i.e. it's height is capped to 10 meters. This is not ideal aerodynamically.

I have done some back of the envelop calculations on this. Not going into the details here. But the diameter of K4 seems ideal for a 17 tonner. But the optimal height should be around 12.25 meters. So a near ideal missile can be generated by using the two stages of K4 and an ogival payload fairing with a base diameter of 1.4 meters. It is going to look very similar to the missile used in the Shakti test, except the payload fairing is wider and shorter than the KKV on the top of the 'Shakti' missile. One can provide a third stage which is roughly 0.7 meters tall and 1.4 meters wide and carrying roughly 1.2 tons of fuel. The overall height of the missile actually doesn't increase by much because the first missile has a lot of empty space inside the payload fairing. I have a feeling: Tessy Thomas had once said that modified Agni III weighs around 22 tons. What I just described is something very close to the missile.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby mody » 26 Nov 2019 17:16

There was discussion earlier with regards to adopting the B05-Sagarika to land based role. The Shaurya version was also tested fired.
However, in some subsequent discussion or interview, someone had clarified that B05 was optimised for SLBM role and hence the body casing was made stronger to withstand higher pressure etc. and that the missile in its existing form, wasn't optimised for a land based role. A land based version would have to be modified and optimised for the land based role.

The Agni series missiles have generally been work in progress or iterative developments, all leading up to the Agni-5. Even the Agni-5 still has three milestones to clear, to become amongst the best in class:
1). All composite 1st stage
2). MIRV+MARV
3). NEPE based or some other higher energy propellant, then the current formulation.

The Agni-2 was the result of the development of the Agni-1TD. Agni 3 was developed to get to a range of 3,500 Kms minimum, so as to threaten the dragon. Angi-1, was an afterthought and was based on the Agni-2.
Agni-IV was supposed to be a TD, to develop the new technologies needed for the A-V. It removed the interstage truss connectors and introduced second stage composite rocket motor. Also, new guidance technology. The Agni-3 has been reported at various places to feature a composite 1st stage, but I think that is either speculation or just plain confusion. The Agni-IV has been developed further then just being a TD, but has not been canisterized as yet, unlike the A-V. Further development of the Agni series seems to have been put on hold. Since the cannisterisation of the A-V, no new development has taken place. The minimum deterrent required at the moment, has been achieved.

The K-series missiles are more advanced and dare I say a more focussed development effort then the Agni series. A new version of the Agni-1, with an all composite body, higher energy propellant, smaller and lighter then the existing A-1 with additional technologies as developed for the B05, should be developed. It was rumoured to be under development. However, there is no news about the same.
For land based deterrent, a new version of A-1 as above, as the short range, the Agni-5 as the ICBM and perhaps a land-optimized missile derived from the K4 as the intermediate range should be the future.

For the SLBM role, the B05 played the TD role. The K4 and K5 missiles will be the mainstay for the future.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 26 Nov 2019 17:41

To be honest, Agni series has always seemed like run ahead and see what the politicians are willing to sanction, given the strategic environment and peacenik chaddis the UPA/INC wore as a matter of pride.

Hence A1/A2/A3/A4/A5/A6 etc - with the constant fear that asking funds for anything truly ground breaking which covers todays and tomorrows threats will make somebody in GOI go on a rant about NPT/CTBT or scaring the west or offending China or whatever and stop the funding. Hence, the constant "push the envelope but not too much".

Now, is the right time to take stock and rationalize the entire inventory, keep 2-3 designs in play and mass produce them, rather than artisanal 20 of each type.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby srai » 26 Nov 2019 18:24

^^^
Good point. IMO, standardize on these:

Agni-1 (700km) —> Pakistan-centric
Agni-5 (5000+km) —> China-centric

K-4 —> SLBM

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Haridas » 27 Nov 2019 11:15

mody wrote:My argument was more about the total length of the Agni-4 missile, as compared to the K4 missile. Both have approximately the same range and weight. Both weigh about 17 tons, but the A4 is 20 meters long, as opposed to 12 meters for K4. A shorter missile, would be easier to transport and disperse. Also, easier to have it cannisterised. When the K4 already exists, why not derive a land based variant of the same, in place of Agni-4.

Urgency demands. IIRC the first A4 booster was delivered in 2003, meaning the missile was sactioned few years prior. The pressure was to build full range deterrence wrt Cheen, as A2 was a quick fix and offered useful counterstrike to parts of Cheen.

Submarine launched long range missile K4 was needed much later and the requirements were different and more stringent; requiring time to build the whole range of technologies and proving.

Agni-3 was first amongst many stepping stones to reach K4.

Reducing length of long range missile to fit in submarine is very hard problem. Not to mention MIRV capability.

What I am surprised is the stated diameter of K4 ! Full capability will need 2 to 2.2m dia vehicle weighing ~37 tons.

Pardon my time pass views. :roll:

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Haridas » 27 Nov 2019 11:30

My above post seems redundent in view of earlier posts by worthies

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby dinesha » 27 Nov 2019 16:53


Frame Time after 7 min; Order of 48 TCT-5 in 2015 was to be delivered in 3-4 years.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Haridas » 28 Nov 2019 06:10

hnair wrote:
mody wrote:Even with regards to the A4, I don't understand, why we don't go for a land equivalent of the K4 missile, instead of he pencil thin A4 missile


The pencil-thin Agni 4 plays an important role as that was supposed to have been played by Midgetman in the US arsenal. Of the light (Midgetman), Medium(Minuteman) and heavy (MX), the light one is the most challenging, due to the road mobility aspect. Midgetman (13.5 t) vs Agni 4 (17t), the weight difference is barely around 4 tons and khan obviously has far better optimization skills about mass fraction etc than a recent entrant like India. But nevertheless, Agni 4 class is a great missile that can be dispersed and made survivable. That was the original purpose of Midgetman too - a more survivable land-based ICBM that can disperse in their own HMMT launchers. But since paranoia came down, it got canned along with heavier MX, leaving only the trusty old Minuteman variants. India does not have such treaty limitations

Agni 4 range with 800kg payload says 4000kms. With 150-200kg, all bets are off. Maybe Haridas-saar can throw more info :)

If Agni 4 range with 800kg payload is 4,000 kms than its range with 200 Kg RV will be 7,000 Km.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Kanson » 28 Nov 2019 16:25

K4 & A4, are two different approaches or solutions to the same problem.

----------------

You know like the debate here, media started the same debate thanks to journos who wanted to pit drdo against IN; particularly one journo who was close to IN because of his connection, played it up further. So this (debate) went to then DRDO chief ears. And he simply said, Agni is a good missile. Whatever job/mission it is supposed to do, it is good to do. Something like that he mentioned.

We learnt that many sub systems of A5 was tested in A4 & fail-proofed before attemping in A5. Is A5 a low tech missile? So how can A4 be?
Do we know what else was tested & trialed in A4 before porting into other systems...

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ArjunPandit » 28 Nov 2019 16:40

Haridas wrote:If Agni 4 range with 800kg payload is 4,000 kms than its range with 200 Kg RV will be 7,000 Km.


thanks haridasji,
question related to what Ramana guru mentioned

ramana wrote:When range is increased by reducing weight if the payload the accelerations increase. This makes the entire vehicle design subject to new loads and environments. And higher accelerations could lead to structural changes.
Rocket science, not art.

will composite casings help in this case or they only help to reduce the mass?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby uddu » 28 Nov 2019 17:17

Karthik S wrote:
Thakur_B wrote:^^ Is Surya model legit or just artists interpretation?


What's more heartening is that the name that was going rounds for more than a decade has now come into open. That name was associated with 10,000 KM ICBM.


Decade? The NPA (Non-Proliferation Ayothallas) was attacking India with this name in the year 1995. 24 years before. claming our pslv tech is used to create ICBM's etc and all bullshit. Writing propaganda articles after articles against India. If today India is naming a missile Surya, then it's a tight slap to the NPA's. We don't forget things that easily. Do we? :twisted: :rotfl:

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby lakshmanM » 28 Nov 2019 18:34

The name 'Surya' dates back to 1994, and it was used for Agni-4 (Surya-1) and modified PSLV (Surya-2). Everything related to Surya is a whole lot of Raayta. Read more about it in an official US publication -
Image
https://books.google.co.in/books?id=0_VPg7TgMSYC&pg=PA86&dq=surya+india+agni-4+pslv&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj2j8a79IzmAhWJe30KHURRCMkQ6AEIOTAC#v=onepage&q=surya%20india%20agni-4%20pslv&f=false

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby kit » 28 Nov 2019 19:48

lakshmanM wrote:The name 'Surya' dates back to 1994, and it was used for Agni-4 (Surya-1) and modified PSLV (Surya-2). Everything related to Surya is a whole lot of Raayta. Read more about it in an official US publication -
Image
https://books.google.co.in/books?id=0_VPg7TgMSYC&pg=PA86&dq=surya+india+agni-4+pslv&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj2j8a79IzmAhWJe30KHURRCMkQ6AEIOTAC#v=onepage&q=surya%20india%20agni-4%20pslv&f=false



more likely the "surya" has been rechristened as the K series, the Ks from the 4 will all be SL ICBMs depending on their trajectories!



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