Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

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Prem Kumar
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Prem Kumar » 22 Jan 2020 00:25

Hemant Rout is claiming that K4 was test-fired with MIRV capability!! Could that explain the 2 Tonne payload?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby sivab » 22 Jan 2020 00:27

ramana wrote:There is no 0.5 tonne payload. So the exercise is academic.
Please look at Agni tests to get idea of the payload.


Look at the number of MIRV's and payload below. It is from Dr. VK Saraswat presentation at IITB around 2014.

Image

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Supratik » 22 Jan 2020 01:01

K4 was never reported to be MIRV AFAIK. If this is MIRV either the payload has been modified or this is a different missile being tested under K4. The status of K4 itself is not clear from open source. Sometimes it has been launched from Arihant sometimes it is under testing. It is a very classified project.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Haridas » 22 Jan 2020 01:58

VickyAvinash wrote:
Haridas wrote:My mind is super relaxed & dancing in joy at this K-4 test.
Shade more than Pokharan-2 :D :)

Sir, many moons ago in your previous avatar, you always maintained that unless the maal is not retested, it will always be FBF boosted device than pure thermo... Now, you being at peace of mind, does it signify any break through?...pls dont answer if not in national interest...thanks...

:wink: :wink: The joy is from many aspects not just one.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Haridas » 22 Jan 2020 02:08

sivab wrote:
ramana wrote:There is no 0.5 tonne payload. So the exercise is academic.
Please look at Agni tests to get idea of the payload.


Look at the number of MIRV's and payload below. It is from Dr. VK Saraswat presentation at IITB around 2014.

Image

Form the diagram.
The missile cant carry just one 500Kg payload due to needed symmetry constrain.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby sivab » 22 Jan 2020 02:55

^^^ Point was about existence of 500Kg RV/payload. Picture is that of k6 and agree with you on that. Reported K4 dia of 1.3m is too small for Indian MIRV.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Haridas » 22 Jan 2020 03:26

sivab wrote:^^^ Point was about existence of 500Kg RV/payload. Picture is that of k6 and agree with you on that. Reported K4 dia of 1.3m is too small for Indian MIRV.

Many moons ago when I interviewed Dr K Santhanam, he said right from early days (late 1980's) the design was to carry 3 petals, and you know what was the dia of early designs.

For now let's say that 1.3m is plentiful for plentiful petals.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby SSridhar » 22 Jan 2020 05:12

sivab wrote:
ramana wrote:There is no 0.5 tonne payload. So the exercise is academic.
Please look at Agni tests to get idea of the payload.


Look at the number of MIRV's and payload below. It is from Dr. VK Saraswat presentation at IITB around 2014.

Image

It is K-6, that is being tested if the MIRV is true. Also, three-stage composites and (retractable) aero-spike were in the design of K-6, afaik.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby krishna_krishna » 22 Jan 2020 06:55

Haridas wrote:
For now let's say that 1.3m is plentiful for plentiful petals.


Haridasji reminds of how Dr.K S used to say in "Plural numbers" when someone used to ask him on number of packages that desh has.

A question for you during A-SAT test massa deployed RC-135S Cobra Ball from Diego Garcia to snoop on the test. The article also mentioned that massa has been regularly snooping on Indian BM programs and tests since 2010. The idea is to get electronic and optical signatures, are we aware of such missions and do designers can tweak the test to "Fool" these snoopers or in other words can something be done to evade them. How are they able to deploy with such accuracy on the time i.e when precisely we are going to test as most of these asset cannot be infinitely deployed.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Rakesh » 22 Jan 2020 07:07

Image

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Rakesh » 22 Jan 2020 07:31

https://twitter.com/indiatubedesk/statu ... 5395698688 ---> DRDO is also developing the SAMHO (or Semi-Active Mission Homing) Anti Tank Guided Missile under the Cannon Launched Missile Development Program, which is designed to be launched from the Arjun MBT tank gun. The cannon launched guided missile SAMHO is intended to destroy modern and future Main Battle Tanks protected with explosive reactive armor, armored vehicles, hardened point targets, and low flying helicopters/aircraft. The key feature of the ATGM is a semi-active laser mission homing guidance.

This 120mm missile is packed in a launch tube, which strongly resembles that of the late 1960's vintage second-generation Soviet-era Fagot and uses externally similar launcher unit. However, the Indian missile has a different appearance and uses laser guidance instead of wire guidance. It is proposed with tandem HEAT and High-Explosive Fragmentation (HE-FRAG) warheads. The SAMHO has a range of up to 5 km. Cannon-Launched Laser Guided Missile (CLGM) is capable of both direct and indirect laser designation.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Thakur_B » 22 Jan 2020 07:40

SAMHO/CLGM was first displayed 2012-13 iirc. Never went anywhere so far. It was supposed to arm drones, helicopters and tanks. A Man Portable system was also planned. Could have easily been qualified on Rudra helicopters.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 22 Jan 2020 09:50

User disinterest in a SAL ATGM, i.e. SAMHO. They want fire and forget.
It does exist in a fashion as the round for the Arjun - the CLGM which is due for trials soon.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Haridas » 22 Jan 2020 10:58

krishna_krishna wrote:Haridasji reminds of how Dr.K S used to say in "Plural numbers" when someone used to ask him on number of packages that desh has.

A question for you during A-SAT test massa deployed RC-135S Cobra Ball from Diego Garcia to snoop on the test. The article also mentioned that massa has been regularly snooping on Indian BM programs and tests since 2010. The idea is to get electronic and optical signatures, are we aware of such missions and do designers can tweak the test to "Fool" these snoopers or in other words can something be done to evade them. How are they able to deploy with such accuracy on the time i.e when precisely we are going to test as most of these asset cannot be infinitely deployed.

Survillance spoofing is difficult and imho constrained by ROI to us. If I am India I don't care what others can gauge from their survillance, for they will really know our capabelity, hence deterrence is when we develop "intent" to use.
In fact intelligence effort by potential adversary is essential mechanism for deterrence.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Prem Kumar » 22 Jan 2020 18:55

Karan M wrote:User disinterest in a SAL ATGM, i.e. SAMHO. They want fire and forget.
It does exist in a fashion as the round for the Arjun - the CLGM which is due for trials soon.


Quite sad really. A cheap SAL missile from UAVs & Helicopters can be very useful in COIN operations, when you want to hunt pigs sneaking in across the LOC. Instead of sending in our SF all the time, SAMHOs can blow them up and the SFs can go in for just cleanup. That's just one use-case. There will be others too. Too narrow to think only in terms of anti-armor

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby dinesha » 22 Jan 2020 19:18

India successfully test-fires 3,500 km nuclear-capable missile K-4
-By Hemant Kumar Rout
https://www.newindianexpress.com/states ... 91838.html
Developed by DRDO, the weapon with a dummy payload was launched in full operational configuration. The trial was carried in association with Strategic Forces Command (SFC) while the DRDO provided all logistic supports.

“It was an excellent mission accomplished. The missile zeroed on the target with high accuracy reaching close to zero circular error probability. Such outstanding performance of the undersea missile was never witnessed before. The missile travelled nearly 21 minutes and covered its full range of over 3,500 km,” the sources informed The Express.


Sources further informed that another test of the missile has been scheduled on January 24 following which the weapon is expected to go for series of production.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Aditya_V » 22 Jan 2020 19:21

Will the missile go into production without being tested from a sub. May be InS Arindham or INS Arigat are in the water?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ramana » 22 Jan 2020 23:08

sivab wrote:^^^ Point was about existence of 500Kg RV/payload. Picture is that of k6 and agree with you on that. Reported K4 dia of 1.3m is too small for Indian MIRV.


A 500 kg RV will require extensive redesign as the loads and accelerations will be quite high with current rocket motors. So its academic exercise for now.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Gyan » 22 Jan 2020 23:26

Fire & Forget ATGM is 10 times more costly than Wire or RF Guided ATGM

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ramana » 22 Jan 2020 23:39

krishna^2 Sometimes for deterrence need outsiders to observe.
If a tree falls in a forest who knows?
ASAT falls into space weapon and is a deterrent weapon.


The SAMHO should have been developed as an electro-optical (el-op) seeker can be fitted after its developed.
The old procurement guys were quite rotten in stymieing DRDO products lest imports are denied.
Not now.

The cannon launch is quite stressful for the missile. The use case is to engage targets at 5 km.

But the Armoured Corps put minimum requirement of 500m or less which is silly.
No one fires a missile at that cannon kill range.
Centurions used to fire at that range.

Sadly no one questioned that requirement.
By now it could have been undergoing production trials.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ramana » 22 Jan 2020 23:41

Gyan, Total life cycle cost and utility is not their problem.
And think of maintaining the electronics etc!!!

But Janes Defense Weekly (JDW) featured he R&D product and IA wants it in their inventory.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ramana » 22 Jan 2020 23:45

The key words in that report are1) test by SFC in 2) operational configuration, and 3) close to zero CEP.
And that after the next test will be declared ready for series production.

Think what all this means.
Will spell it out.

First(1/20) trial pontoon, next(1/24) could be sub based.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Suraj » 23 Jan 2020 00:08

Nuclear powered pontoon you mean ? Just as all NOTAMs are due to Prithvi tests, all underwater tests are from pontoons.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby sudeepj » 23 Jan 2020 01:49

The K4 launch

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=at5POvTkyb4

Looks very different from other SLBM launches.. K4 has flames coming out of its front end! where as the other SLBMs look like they 'pop out' of water, and ignition of main motor happens when the missile speed reaches 0.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5KejRbD5s0


What is the mechanism for K4 type launches? Its an intriguing design!

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Gerard » 23 Jan 2020 02:25

sudeepj wrote:Looks very different from other SLBM launches.. K4 has flames coming out of its front end!
What is the mechanism for K4 type launches? Its an intriguing design!


Cavitator cap. Shields the missile from seawater within propellant gas layer, reducing hydrodynamic resistance.

This is the R-39 SLBM. Note the cavitator.



The R-39 was designed to be capable of being launched from extreme depths in open seas or from the surface after the submarine had broken through the Arctic ice. For this reason a powerful cold-launch gas generator system was developed. The 6 metric ton ARSS device surrounding the top of the missile provided the seal between the launch tube and the sea, and the structural attach point of the missile. In normal handling and operation, the missile was literally hanging from the ARSS in the launch tube. At launch, a solid-propellant gas generator in the first stage ending nozzle produced the pressure to pop the missile out of the tube. The ARSS cushioned the shock of ejection. A solid propellant device in the ARSS produced a gas envelope around the missile, allowing protected and low-friction ascent through the water to the surface. It also imparted a lateral motion to the missile, so it would not be directly over the submarine when it broke the surface. Once the missile cleared the water, the first stage engine ignited, and the ARSS was boosted away from the missile by yet another solid propellant charge.


The ARSS ensures the amortization of rocket, hermetic sealing the cavity of mine and safety of rocket for the submarine, it allows the submerged submarine rocket carrier from the tube to the significant depth opened by cover. All load-bearing elements of rocket, necessary with its operation on the ground environment and aboard the ship, with exception of middle supporting skirt, are placed on the ARSS and housing of rear compartment, jettisoned in the initial phase of flight after the output of rocket from the water.

At the moment of launch a special solid-propellant grain, located on the ARSS, create the gas current protection in the form of cavity, which decreases the hydrodynamic loads on the rocket. Command to the starting of first-stage engine will be given at the moment of the output of rocket from the tube. Ignition of the first stage engine occurs after leaving the tube. With start of the first-stage engine after exiting from the water the rocket for the purpose of providing safety of submarine takes away to the side. Starting system in flight is removed by special engines from the rocket and also it takes away to the side.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby sum » 23 Jan 2020 06:03

dinesha wrote:India successfully test-fires 3,500 km nuclear-capable missile K-4
-By Hemant Kumar Rout
https://www.newindianexpress.com/states ... 91838.html
Developed by DRDO, the weapon with a dummy payload was launched in full operational configuration. The trial was carried in association with Strategic Forces Command (SFC) while the DRDO provided all logistic supports.

“It was an excellent mission accomplished. The missile zeroed on the target with high accuracy reaching close to zero circular error probability. Such outstanding performance of the undersea missile was never witnessed before. The missile travelled nearly 21 minutes and covered its full range of over 3,500 km,” the sources informed The Express.


Sources further informed that another test of the missile has been scheduled on January 24 following which the weapon is expected to go for series of production.

Genuine pooch:
Is a 0 CEP even possible for ranges of over 3000 km? What are CEPs of comparable state of the art missiles of today?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Aarvee » 23 Jan 2020 06:19

sum wrote:Is a 0 CEP even possible for ranges of over 3000 km? What are CEPs of comparable state of the art missiles of today?


Possibly manoeuvring end stage that can home in on target?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ramana » 23 Jan 2020 06:52

It means they have very precise velocity control to correct all the errors: guidance, navigation drift, renetry errors.

I do agree that one launch does not define the CEP.
What they meant was aim point and splashdown point was very close.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Thakur_B » 23 Jan 2020 09:56





Please update on the status of the modernized and upgraded AKASH-MK1S SAM system and current status of deliveries of Akash missile systems.


Akash Weapon System has been delivered and operationally deployed by both IAF and IA in combat areas. In September 2019, seven additional squadrons worth `5000 crs have been contracted by MoD. Integration of indigeneous RF seeker with AKASH missile has already been demonstrated using Akash Mk-1S flight trials. It is a potent weapon system having unique guidance scheme with combination of command guidance and seeker based terminal guidance. Akash Mk-1S configuration has already been established through successful flight trials. The missile will soon be delivered to Army as AKASH PRIME which will include other upgrades as per User requirements.


Dr. G. Satheesh Reddy interview Geopolitics magazine november 2019.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby hnair » 23 Jan 2020 10:24

Suraj wrote:Nuclear powered pontoon you mean ?

:lol: :lol: :lol:

A purely cavitator kind of cap seem to be used by M51, a good video of the cavitator cap in action is the old video of a French test launch from some deep tank



But the K4 and R39 that Gerard has posted, look very energetic, for lack of a better word and could be a tractor configured zero-stage.

Image

Btw, always wondered if this old test pic of Agni III has any significance, because no other test videos has shown that ring

Also might mean an aerospike was tested due to the blunter nose caused by the squashed dimensions of an SLBM

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby tsarkar » 23 Jan 2020 10:50

sudeepj wrote:The K4 launch

That is an old K15 video. The missile is too thin to be K4.

Cavitation cap is a more efficient way of underwater launch than brute force rocket. SDRE's do it subtly.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ArjunPandit » 23 Jan 2020 17:54

ramana wrote:It means they have very precise velocity control to correct all the errors: guidance, navigation drift, renetry errors.

I do agree that one launch does not define the CEP.
What they meant was aim point and splashdown point was very close.

are we ignoring the previous launches intentionally, because the launch environment was different?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby sudeepj » 23 Jan 2020 23:19

tsarkar wrote:
sudeepj wrote:The K4 launch

That is an old K15 video. The missile is too thin to be K4.

Cavitation cap is a more efficient way of underwater launch than brute force rocket. SDRE's do it subtly.


Fascinating! Any more to read about this new (to me) way of launches?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby prasannasimha » 23 Jan 2020 23:32

The K4 has got a nose ring tractor which generates the cavitation cap just like the R39.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby kit » 24 Jan 2020 00:03

The K4 right from go seems designed to be launched from even under the polar ice caps , interesting !
Last edited by hnair on 24 Jan 2020 10:13, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Stop quoting entire posts, in this age of phone-readers!!

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Raveen » 24 Jan 2020 00:17

kit wrote:

The K4 right from go seems designed to be launched from even under the polar ice caps , interesting !


How did you make that deduction? I don't think any of these missiles can be launch under ice - they rely on the submarine to break throught the ice before launch.
Last edited by hnair on 24 Jan 2020 10:14, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby kit » 24 Jan 2020 04:52

Raveen wrote:
kit wrote:

The K4 right from go seems designed to be launched from even under the polar ice caps , interesting !


How did you make that deduction? I don't think any of these missiles can be launch under ice - they rely on the submarine to break throught the ice before launch.


i did not say the missile is going to break the ice :mrgreen: ., besides the polar ice caps are the safest places for the boomers to hide

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Rakesh » 24 Jan 2020 06:08


Karthik S
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karthik S » 24 Jan 2020 09:54

kit wrote:
Raveen wrote:
How did you make that deduction? I don't think any of these missiles can be launch under ice - they rely on the submarine to break throught the ice before launch.


i did not say the missile is going to break the ice :mrgreen: ., besides the polar ice caps are the safest places for the boomers to hide


Soviet subs were double hulled precisely for this reason.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby sajaym » 24 Jan 2020 11:53

tsarkar wrote: Cavitation cap is a more efficient way of underwater launch than brute force rocket. SDRE's do it subtly.


A thousand pranaams to the indian scientists for having perfected this technique. This is indeed a great achievement for our country, close on the heels of the successful carrier trials of the NLCA. On the whole our scientists are achieving success in the fields of aviation, space, missile and naval systems. Now if only the ******* ****** at GTRE could have given us a good jet engine, we would become world beaters.


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