Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

[Thakur_B]

We needed all of these ASAP.

Prahar Weapon System

https://twitter.com/delhidefence/status ... 6015706112

How is a missile ergonomically designed ? [/quote]

For enemy's musharraf

[Sumair]

China Says India Can’t Build An Effective Missile Defense System
https://www.yahoo.com/news/china-says-i ... 00629.html

[vishvak]

China Says India Can’t Build An Effective Missile Defense System
https://www.yahoo.com/news/china-says-i ... 00629.html

It's like claim of India can't build a fighter jet. Can't build BMD is not a bad criticism to begin with. Maybe just fishing attempts.

[nash]

Harsh Vardhan Thakur
@hvtiaf

MBDA UK for Meteor on Mirage and MBDA France for MICA Mk-2 have approached.

Everything is on the cards for Indian fighters, & possible even without direct radar integration.

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/1225101730121043968

From the link:

The Universal Miniaturized Missile Data Link (UMMD) of MBDA is a fully customizable, software defined radio solution for missiles. The component enhances the capabilities of a missile system by enabling the operator to exchange information through a secure wireless communication link with the missile during engagement.

Will this be the solution to integrate Meteor and future version MICA in M2K and other Indian fighters.

[Indranil]

We needed all of these ASAP.
Prahar Weapon System

https://twitter.com/delhidefence/status ... 6015706112

That poster is a treasure trove of information and explains why the delay in Prahaar's testing. They have modified the missile and the carrier. 
The missile is skinnier and shorter now, isn't it? It has a wider range especially on the shorter side. The warhead choice has been widened. Notice that the impact can be at 100 degrees. Meaning that the missile can be used in top attack mode from behind the mountain in an over the ridge kind of situation. 

Earlier Prahaar was supposed to move on large 12x12 which is good in many areas. But imagine taking those to forward areas. Now they will have them on 6X6s, and 8x8s in high mobility vehicles. The launch platform has wider traverse angles as well. This is far more battle-ready weapon platform. May be the 12x12s will also stay.  

P.S. But seriously, we need to proof read posters before putting them up in international events like this. +- 45 degrees has changed to +- 450! And then ergonomic?

[Ashokk]

We needed all of these ASAP.
Prahar Weapon System

https://twitter.com/delhidefence/status ... 6015706112

P.S. But seriously, we need to proof read posters before putting them up in international events like this. +- 45 degrees has changed to +- 450! And then ergonomic?

Looks like someone has converted all the degree (°) symbols to zeros
Someone has corrected the temperature range but missed the others. Years of decoding DDM comes in handy again

[Indranil]

How did you guys miss this.

Delhi Defence Review
@delhidefence
Making an expo debut is the Naval Anti Ship Missile - Short Range NASM-SR at #defexpo2020

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EQAFjWqU0AE ... me=900x900

So is there a medium range and extended range in development? India has really crossed the threshold in terms of missile development. We can develop missiles of our choice at will.

[Avinandan]

Regarding Prahaar being ergonomic :-
Perhaps it is meant to convey that it is much more ergonomical than bulkier Prithvi and easier to manage once canisterized.

[Indranil]

Is it the first time that the specs of the ASAT missile has been revealed?



Right after the test, I had made some educated guesses. I was not very far off.

http://delhidefencereview.com/2019/04/03/all-you-need-to-know-about-the-pdv-mk-ii-indias-satellite-killer/

Based on the above analysis, the following characteristics of the missile emerge. It is a three stage missile with a diameter of 1.4 m and a length of nearly 13.2 m. The first two stages cumulatively weigh around 17.2 tonnes (t) carrying 16.7 t of fuel. The PDV-derived third stage which includes the KKV weighs around 1.8 t, bringing the overall weight of the missile to around 18.5 t. Such a missile should be able to take out targets up to an altitude of 1000 km, as was hinted at by DRDO Chairman Sateesh reddy, after the test.

[Indranil]

Earlier Prahaar was supposed to move on large 12x12 which is good in many areas. But imagine taking those to forward areas. Now they will have them on 6X6s, and 8x8s in high mobility vehicles. The launch platform has wider traverse angles as well. This is far more battle-ready weapon platform. May be the 12x12s will also stay.  

The fog is clearing in my head. The AAD will use the 12x12. They had offered the Prahaar on 12x12s, but must have faced opposition from Army for obvious reasons. They then proposed an 8x8 platform (derivation of the MRSAM launch platform) for more mobility.

But, it still didn't make sense. why would I launch a tactical ballistic missile vertically (which is a fast reaction requirement of AAD). In the tactical ballistic missile I would know where I want to fire. I want the ability to traverse in inclination and azimuth based on the ballistic calculations and launch optimally. And that is exactly what DRDO has done. They cannot launch vertically. It will be inclined from 45 degrees to 80 degrees. However, they have the ability to traverse +-45 degrees in the azimuth. This has allowed them to have much wider range. I still think they will still carry two missiles in the 6x6 platform. They had to slightly adjust the dimensions of the missile to do so.

Expect more frequent Prahaar/Pragati missile tests soon. They were getting the configuration right. Now they have it.

[nash]

Some more info on Nirbhay, now it will be called ITCM and naval version LRLACM by 2023, 20 test required for naval version

Anantha Krishnan M
@writetake
#Nirbhay sea-skimming captured through EOTS.

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/12 ... 5633504273

Anantha Krishnan M
@writetake
The #Nirbhay missile prog takes a new avatar. It will be know knownas Indigenous Technology Cruise Missile #ITCM. First launch with desi seeker, engine...

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/12 ... 4397693952

https://english.manoramaonline.com/news ... ssile.html

[Prem Kumar]

While the support from the Navy is great (200 missile commitment), I wish the IA & IAF had inducted Tranche 1 of Nirbhays with imported engines. We can iron out operational & production kinks while Tranche 2 with indigenous engine gets ready.

This "closing down" of Nirbhay program as a tech demonstrator without induction is a real crappy decision - but not a surprising one sadly.

[krishna_krishna]

As discussed in few pages before need for new missile its here and its called "Pranash ":

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... SnvcP.html

The new weapon traces its origin to the Prahaar missile developed by the DRDO, the official said. The Prahaar has a range of 150km but the army wanted a weapon with a better range, which is why Pranash is being developed, he added.

“The configuration of Pranash has been frozen and development trials will begin by 2021-end. We will be in a position to offer it for user trials in two years. The army wants a missile with a range in the region of 200km,” said a second official aware of the matter.

[Prem Kumar]

Explains the slow movement of Prahaar & Pragati. The former apparently made an appearance in a DefExpo2020 poster this week.

Not sure what the thinking is: Prahaar was first tested in 2011 & Pragati showcased in 2013. Did it take 9 years to realize that the range needs to be increased by 50 Km? I had an inkling that something like this might happen - if you recall, Prahaar was a self-funded initiative by the DRDO (derived from either PAD or AAD). It wasn't in response to any specific requirement

Sometimes, you just feel like throwing your hands up

[sum]

While the support from the Navy is great (200 missile commitment), I wish the IA & IAF had inducted Tranche 1 of Nirbhays with imported engines. We can iron out operational & production kinks while Tranche 2 with indigenous engine gets ready.

This "closing down" of Nirbhay program as a tech demonstrator without induction is a real crappy decision - but not a surprising one sadly.

If the ADE failed in its goal and couldn't turn the corner with the Nirbhay despite so many chances, why are they entrusted with the new version again?

[Prasad]

New director. And it isn't an entire failure. We still need a lrcm.

[Indranil]

Sum ji,

I have seen the tenders for the new Nirbhay. It is more compact. But not much change.

[Thakur_B]

Sum ji,

I have seen the tenders for the new Nirbhay. It is more compact. But not much change.

So no LO design like Scalp?

[rakall]

Sum ji,

I have seen the tenders for the new Nirbhay. It is more compact. But not much change.

I hope we get through with Nirbhay ASAP..
Very important and critical for us to get over the hurdle with Nirbhay and make it a workhorse and a highly reliale system (like PSLV has become for ISRO)..

The possibilites are endless..

There is a long wishlist :


Nirbhay-Mini 600km Range Airlaunched (3 per Tejas) LACM
Nirbhay-Mini 500km Range Airlaunched (3 per Tejas) Anti-Ship


Nirbhay 1000km Range Airlaunched (1 per Tejas) LACM
Nirbhay 1000km Range Airlaunched (1 per Tejas) Anti-Ship
Nirbhay 1000km Range TEL, Ship/Sub launch LACM
Nirbhay 1000km Range CoastalBattery Anti-Ship


Nirbhay-ER 1500km+ Range TEL, Ship/Sub launched LACM
Nirbhay-ER 1500km+ Range Coastal Battery Anti-Ship (probably an overkill.. unnecessary???)

[kit]

Sum ji,

I have seen the tenders for the new Nirbhay. It is more compact. But not much change.

I hope we get through with Nirbhay ASAP..
Very important and critical for us to get over the hurdle with Nirbhay and make it a workhorse and a highly reliale system (like PSLV has become for ISRO)..

The possibilites are endless..

There is a long wishlist :


Nirbhay-Mini 600km Range Airlaunched (3 per Tejas) LACM
Nirbhay-Mini 500km Range Airlaunched (3 per Tejas) Anti-Ship


Nirbhay 1000km Range Airlaunched (1 per Tejas) LACM
Nirbhay 1000km Range Airlaunched (1 per Tejas) Anti-Ship
Nirbhay 1000km Range TEL, Ship/Sub launch LACM
Nirbhay 1000km Range CoastalBattery Anti-Ship


Nirbhay-ER 1500km+ Range TEL, Ship/Sub launched LACM
Nirbhay-ER 1500km+ Range Coastal Battery Anti-Ship (probably an overkill.. unnecessary???)

For extended range anti ship missiles , the issue *still* would be tracking, what sensor sources with IN can possibly do that ?

[Indranil]

Sum ji,

I have seen the tenders for the new Nirbhay. It is more compact. But not much change.

So no LO design like Scalp?

There was no diagram in the tender, only dimensions.

[Zynda]

According to chaiwallah's cousin...Nirbhay program has met most its objectives. It was meant to be a TD.

Legacy of Nirbhay is truly alive & well in several follow-up programs. Not all of them are being worked on simultaneously but apparently work is continuing.

Future Nirbhay test firings will be mainly for Manik testing (which is on-going at GTRE currently) and also to test out a few more items.

[Neela]

Grainy EOTS video of Nirbhay sea-skimming

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/12 ... 5633504273

[tsarkar]

For extended range anti ship missiles , the issue *still* would be tracking, what sensor sources with IN can possibly do that ?

CARTOSAT, RISAT, P-8A, Do-228, Heron, Tapas

[Manish_Sharma]

DRDO inks deal with Russian company for missiles propulsion systems
https://m.economictimes.com/news/defenc ... 001438.cms
07 Feb 2020

Lucknow: The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) signed a technology development contract with a Russian company Rosoboronexport on Friday at DefExpo2020 here. DRDO's High Energy Materials Research Laboratory (HEMRL) signed contract with Rosoboronexport for development of Advanced Pyrotechnic Ignition Systems. Director HEMRL KPS Murthy said that this will enable advancement in the field of energetic materials and pyrotechnic technology leading to the development of advanced ignition systems. HEMRL is the DRDO laboratory working in the development of spectrum of high energy materials required for missiles, rockets and guns. This will meet the futuristic requirements of high-performance propulsion systems. He added that the propulsion systems are the power behind the rockets and missiles. "This technology development will facilitate design and development of the state of art solid rocket motors for upcoming products," Murthy said. These products will be based on compact and energy efficient propulsion systems.

[Philip]

Is Pranash being developed because of the high cost of BMos?
One single stage solid rocket engine vs a ramjet. Or is it a replacement for Prithvi legacy tactical missiles meant for under 300km ranges? A good missile for export too.

[jaysimha]

https://telanganatoday.com/amogha-iii-a ... -based-bdl
Amogha-III, Anti-Tank guided missile launched by Hyderabad-based BDL
The missile with dual mode IIR seeker has a range of over 200 to 2500 meters.

[kit]

For extended range anti ship missiles , the issue *still* would be tracking, what sensor sources with IN can possibly do that ?

CARTOSAT, RISAT, P-8A, Do-228, Heron, Tapas

I was thinking of real time tracking, say even an aircraft carrier in a large ocean mass is no easy task, the loiter times of aircraft and UAVs lack the range and persistence for tracking and targetting.Are the new satellites up to the task ., would be a huge leap in capability if it does, .. A hypersonic weapon guided by a such a system can wreck havoc on any enemy fleet from the Indian landmass itself within minutes ! .

[Prem Kumar]

The upcoming GISAT satellites have a multi-spectral resolution of 50m. Good enough to track individual ships, aircraft carriers & their wakes. Can keep an eye on anything big that moves in the Indian ocean. Carrier groups cannot hide anymore.

[Rahul M]

50m would be the resolution in the ideal world scenario. It would go up to 1.5km in many real world scenarios as the pib release mentioned. 50 m is not good enough to id aircraft carrier from similar sized ships like container or crude carrier. For smaller ships like destroyers even detection will be hard.
I would suggest something like 10m resolution is needed for the application we are discussing.

Btw, kit, uav's can loiter for days and time capability is only increasing.

[kit]

50m would be the resolution in the ideal world scenario. It would go up to 1.5km in many real world scenarios as the pib release mentioned. 50 m is not good enough to id aircraft carrier from similar sized ships like container or crude carrier. For smaller ships like destroyers even detection will be hard.
I would suggest something like 10m resolution is needed for the application we are discussing.

Btw, kit, uav's can loiter for days and time capability is only increasing.

yes, you got me there, the Tritons seem to be the "thing"

[John]

Is Pranash being developed because of the high cost of BMos?
One single stage solid rocket engine vs a ramjet. Or is it a replacement for Prithvi legacy tactical missiles meant for under 300km ranges? A good missile for export too.

Its tactical ballistic missile it serves a different purpose than Brahmos and yes it will be cheaper as it doesn’t need to have a radar seeker.

[Haridas]

Regarding Prahaar being ergonomic :-
Perhaps it is meant to convey that it is much more ergonomical than bulkier Prithvi and easier to manage once canisterized.

Ergonomic is like ergonomic access to various LCA panels. Missile also requires periodic human checks, so ergonomics is important. Imagine a design that requires checking a missile component/sub-assembly that requires disassembling a major sub-system.
Even canisterizing a missile is a huge ergonomic improvement becoz it greatly reduces or eliminates manual effort.

[Haridas]

Based on the above analysis, the following characteristics of the missile emerge. It is a three stage missile with a diameter of 1.4 m and a length of nearly 13.2 m. The first two stages cumulatively weigh around 17.2 tonnes (t) carrying 16.7 t of fuel. The PDV-derived third stage which includes the KKV weighs around 1.8 t, bringing the overall weight of the missile to around 18.5 t. Such a missile should be able to take out targets up to an altitude of 1000 km, as was hinted at by DRDO Chairman Sateesh reddy, after the test.

Yes good article when there was scarce data to work on.

however the stated 97% fuel fraction is impossible. Even uncle doesn't have anything close for civilian purpose ,much less military.

[Indranil]

Absolutely, I was definitely wrong there.

What I meant was the two stages without the motors weigh 16.7 tons. (Very sure of this).

I would put fuel fraction at 0.85 which is around 14.2 tons.

[vishvak]

Is Pranash being developed because of the high cost of BMos?
One single stage solid rocket engine vs a ramjet. Or is it a replacement for Prithvi legacy tactical missiles meant for under 300km ranges? A good missile for export too.

Its tactical ballistic missile it serves a different purpose than Brahmos and yes it will be cheaper as it doesn’t need to have a radar seeker.

The Indian mic should just worry about domestic need and be careful about export of weapons including to whom which is important. If someone orders cheap weapons in bunch and cancels it will be left on shores - just not left tail drag the cat or what s the phrase.

[Philip]

Cross-ckd. the report.Prithvi replacement as Prithvi is liquid fuelled,Pranash single stage solid-fuelled rocket. Prithvi's range 150 to 350km. Pranash 200km,but obviously has more in hand.
It will be cheaper too than costly BMos. which is a multi- platform cruise missile,with target approach options for stealth, terminal seeker variants to pin-point mobile platforms like warships,etc.

[Philip]

Cross-ckd. the report.Prithvi replacement as Prithvi is liquid fuelled,Pranash single stage solid-fuelled rocket. Prithvi's range 150 to 350km. Pranash 200km,but obviously has more in hand.
It will be cheaper too than costly BMos. which is a multi- platform cruise missile,with target approach options for stealth, terminal seeker variants to pin-point mobile platforms like warships,etc.

PS: We should leverage the tech. developed for the new ATGM into an air- launched SR ASM. Many OEMs have used ATGM tech. for SR ASMs.With range enhancement and fired from altitude,they're perfect for taking out small fry in the ocean.However,if you examine the highly innovative Iranian missile boats,the smallest are nothing but fishing boat equivs. with high speed outboards ,able to carry 2 regular subsonic anti-ship missiles upto 150/ 200km range. Without the usual sensors,these boats wil rely upon other platforms, but any missile boat that can carry an MTCR limited missile will require the helo to attack it from a 150/200km distance! The missile is however useful for exterminating special craft used by commandos,etc.

[Prem Kumar]

50m would be the resolution in the ideal world scenario. It would go up to 1.5km in many real world scenarios as the pib release mentioned. 50 m is not good enough to id aircraft carrier from similar sized ships like container or crude carrier. For smaller ships like destroyers even detection will be hard.
I would suggest something like 10m resolution is needed for the application we are discussing.

Btw, kit, uav's can loiter for days and time capability is only increasing.

1) 50 m is multi-spectral, including infrared
2) Detection is not just the visual ID of the ship. Its a combination of optical, infrared & wake analysis
3) All of the above combined with AI algorithms & comparison with known signatures

For a geostationary satellite, 50m is pushing the limits of what's possible. Its not good enough to spot a jihadi sneaking in across LoC. We have Cartosats & RISATs for that. But for carrier detection, I think GISATs might be good enough.

Worst case, GISATs can share a "suspicious vessel list", which can vector the next pass of Cartosat, P8I etc to get a closer look for a positive ID

[Rahul M]

50 m is for nadir, it would be much worse for off nadir, especially given the distances involved for GISAT orbit. Given the huge terrestrial footprint of a sat in a geostat orbit, the chances that a target is exactly at the right place for a nadir shot is pretty low. So real life resolution would be >>50m. Now 50m itself is barely enough to detect a large ship. anything worse, it won't be worth the effort. Btw, no amount of AI algorithm is able to id an entity if it is represented as as 1 or 2 pixels at most.