Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby karan_mc » 15 Feb 2020 23:38

Rakesh wrote:Is this true? Click on the link below to read the entire thread....

https://twitter.com/Aerodynamic111/stat ... 64355?s=20 ---> India’s plans of 2018 to equip its MKI and indigenous Tejas wth Meteor BVRAAM after MBDA France informed the govt that they would not integrate their weapon on any Israeli or Russian platform and even refused it to be integrated into a legacy platform like Mirage-2k due to high cost.




He is IDRW parrot . all his tweets are of theirs

http://idrw.org/mbda-uk-might-have-a-so ... -to-india/

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 16 Feb 2020 01:14

mody wrote:Visually the MPATGM and Amogha-III look fairly similar. Also, the news item says that the Amogha-III has a smokeless propellant, which seems to be the case with the MPATGM as well, as can be seen from the pictures given above.
The news item also says Amogha-III was developed in collaboration with DRDO, whereas MPATGM info mentions that BDL is to be agency building it. Seems like Amogha-III and MPATGM should be one and the same.


Larger cruciform shaped wings on the MPATGM, fins at the end are also different.
https://www.livefistdefence.com/wp-cont ... 8/09/1.jpg

BDL design has a completely different layout for the midbody fins and even the other ones. Its clearly a completely different design.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/images/ ... issile.jpg
https://www.janes.com/images/assets/144 ... 8_main.jpg
https://www.janes.com/article/94144/bdl ... a-iii-atgm

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby agupta » 17 Feb 2020 05:26

Karan M wrote:
mody wrote:Visually the MPATGM and Amogha-III look fairly similar. Also, the news item says that the Amogha-III has a smokeless propellant, which seems to be the case with the MPATGM as well, as can be seen from the pictures given above.
The news item also says Amogha-III was developed in collaboration with DRDO, whereas MPATGM info mentions that BDL is to be agency building it. Seems like Amogha-III and MPATGM should be one and the same.


Larger cruciform shaped wings on the MPATGM, fins at the end are also different.
https://www.livefistdefence.com/wp-cont ... 8/09/1.jpg

BDL design has a completely different layout for the midbody fins and even the other ones. Its clearly a completely different design.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/images/ ... issile.jpg
https://www.janes.com/images/assets/144 ... 8_main.jpg
https://www.janes.com/article/94144/bdl ... a-iii-atgm



Of all the things to modify between a Tech Demonstrator and a product, the aero control "sub-system" i.e. fin numbers, airfoil cross sections, planform etc. are the easiest - as long as they stay within configurable control law limits. This could be a function of standardization of components across multiple missiles/systems that BDL could/would do (after multiple decades this is something they SHOULD be able to do very easily), whereas VEM prob has no supply chain to think about exploiting, so their configuration looks almost a carbon copy of the DRDO designs tested.

It could be that BDL decided to "add on" some improvements ... warhead, propulsion etc. Range on both info boards is the same, sensor description is the same... but an old siddiqui article clearly says DRDO and VEM were collaborating and that BDL was the intended production agency.

https://www.financialexpress.com/defenc ... d/1333247/

What's not clear is WHEN are they available @ scale. THat '18 article talked about production being readied... and if both Private sector and PSUs are going to produce these, that's only fantastic news for the IA. Getting 100s of these every month to the front-line ... now that WILL make a difference !

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Prem Kumar » 17 Feb 2020 10:53

The 1st version of man-portable ATGM will most likely be not as good as Spike or Javelin. Either the min range or max range or weight will be an issue. I just hope that it gets inducted in numbers, production stabilized, field-feedback incorporated etc. Version 2, I am sure, will be world class.

Hope this doesn't go the Nirbhay/Arjun/Tejas-MK1 way where version 1, after all the slog, gets just a token order (or worse, gets labeled as a technology demonstrator), with the carrot dangled for a version 1a or 2.0.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby sum » 17 Feb 2020 13:36

^^ Absolutely agree.

So many programs over these last few years seem so promising and all set to be on the verge of acceptance and then *crickets chirping*

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Kanson » 18 Feb 2020 18:41

agupta wrote:
Karan M wrote:
Larger cruciform shaped wings on the MPATGM, fins at the end are also different.
https://www.livefistdefence.com/wp-cont ... 8/09/1.jpg

BDL design has a completely different layout for the midbody fins and even the other ones. Its clearly a completely different design.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/images/ ... issile.jpg
https://www.janes.com/images/assets/144 ... 8_main.jpg
https://www.janes.com/article/94144/bdl ... a-iii-atgm



Of all the things to modify between a Tech Demonstrator and a product, the aero control "sub-system" i.e. fin numbers, airfoil cross sections, planform etc. are the easiest - as long as they stay within configurable control law limits. This could be a function of standardization of components across multiple missiles/systems that BDL could/would do (after multiple decades this is something they SHOULD be able to do very easily), whereas VEM prob has no supply chain to think about exploiting, so their configuration looks almost a carbon copy of the DRDO designs tested.

It could be that BDL decided to "add on" some improvements ... warhead, propulsion etc. Range on both info boards is the same, sensor description is the same... but an old siddiqui article clearly says DRDO and VEM were collaborating and that BDL was the intended production agency.

https://www.financialexpress.com/defenc ... d/1333247/

What's not clear is WHEN are they available @ scale. THat '18 article talked about production being readied... and if both Private sector and PSUs are going to produce these, that's only fantastic news for the IA. Getting 100s of these every month to the front-line ... now that WILL make a difference !


So far no one could recall the similarities it has with Javelin ATGM?
With 8 mid-body fins, TVC at rear, dual pulse engine, does it not resembles Javelin?

We should see MPATGM differently from NAG ATGM. It could be said that what artillery guns are to Kalyani is same as ATGMs to VEM. Drdo partnered with VEM for this project from the beginning, further going by news report the synergy/relationship existed even before that.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Kanson » 18 Feb 2020 18:55

Aditya_V wrote:
Prem Kumar wrote:One more junk deal to please someone else. AIM-120C Jai Ho!

India to buy NASAMS-II


Look US has soo many leverage points , I think from 2008 onwards it is pretty clear, we need buy a lot of weapons from them. If we dont want MRCA from them but need GE engines, we definately have to compensate them, it is not fair but we have to be practical.

Anyway hopefully this gives a close look on the AIM 120C-7 missiles.


This may not have to be seen this way. You heard strategic partnership? These are some of the modalities that was exercised from our side to maintain & flourish the partnership in more meaningful way. We have similar relationship w our dear friend Russia and we extend the same to our new friend US.

Is C8 export variant of AIM 120-D to non-nato allies?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby brar_w » 18 Feb 2020 20:01

Kanson wrote:
Is C8 export variant of AIM 120-D to non-nato allies?


No.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7675&start=2520#p2413168

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Rakesh » 19 Feb 2020 04:49

Rendering....Drag & Drop picture into new window for full size.

https://twitter.com/Kuntal__biswas/stat ... 80296?s=20 ---> Future air-to-ground weapons for IAF

Image

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Rakesh » 19 Feb 2020 04:51

Rendering....Drag & Drop picture into new window for full size.

https://twitter.com/Kuntal__biswas/stat ... 21984?s=20 ---> Anti radiation missile by DRDO.

Image

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Pratyush » 19 Feb 2020 09:07

NASM seems to be very loosely inspired from Popeye.

I thought that Sudershan was a cancelled program due to post launch tumble.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Rakesh » 21 Feb 2020 22:32

Drag & Drop into new window for full size.

https://twitter.com/Kuntal__biswas/stat ... 51360?s=20 ---> NASM

Image

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Rakesh » 21 Feb 2020 23:31

https://twitter.com/vkthakur/status/123 ... 27968?s=20 ----> DRDO presented a very clear headed concept of its Naval Anti-Shipping Missile Short Range (NASM-SR) at Def Expo 2020. The sea skimming missile is being developed for use from Sea King helicopters.

https://twitter.com/vkthakur/status/123 ... 63968?s=20 ---> Equipped with INS for mid-course navigation and IIR for terminal homing, the missile should be capable of fire-and-forget launch. However, it does have a two way data link (for abort, change of target?) IAC, NASM-SR would be difficult to detect, engage, seduce or jam!

https://twitter.com/vkthakur/status/123 ... 29280?s=20 ----> The data link would also be essential in case of a fast moving vessel which could change its coordinates substantially with the 2-3 min flight time.

Image

Image

Image

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Rakesh » 21 Feb 2020 23:36

https://twitter.com/strategic_front/sta ... 48324?s=20 ----> Under Development DRDO Missiles which are yet to start testing:

• Akash NG
• Astra Mk2
• XRSAM
• VL-SRSAM for Navy
• RudraM family of A2G cruise missiles
• NASM-SR (Heli launched AShM)
• SMART (Assisted Torpedo)
• Pralay SSM
• Pranash (Upgraded Prahaar SSM)
• STAR (Supersonic Target Missile)

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Rakesh » 21 Feb 2020 23:38

https://twitter.com/strategic_front/sta ... 40000?s=20 ----> Family of new subsonic cruise missiles which will be based on Nirbhay.

• Land based: Indigenous Technology Cruise Missile (ITCM)
• Ship launched: Long Range Land Attack Cruise Missile (LRLACM)
• Air-Launched Cruise Missile (ALCM)
• Submarine Launched Cruise Missile (SLCM)

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ramana » 22 Feb 2020 09:06

Indranil, What does it take to develop a hellfire class missile? How does Helina compare to Hellfire?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Pratyush » 22 Feb 2020 13:04

ramana wrote:Indranil, What does it take to develop a hellfire class missile? How does Helina compare to Hellfire?


Not Indranil, but will take a stab at it. Most of the components already exist. In terms of warhead and the missile flight control laws and the related actuators.

The air frame and the related control surfaces should be easy.

The big question mark would be the maturity of the seekers within the DRDO labs. If the seeker performs for SANT in Indian environments as intended. Then we are already halfway home. The other half would be putting the missile together.

The missile will be competitive with Hellfire.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Indranil » 22 Feb 2020 23:24

Ramana ji,

Hellfire's long operational life has made it evolve into family of missiles. The anti-armor version, we already have in the Helina. The other warheads need to be integrated and tested.

But, we are developing our designs in a different era from when the Hellfire was developed. Technology on both the missile and the anti-missile-platform fronts have moved ahead. So, there is a need for higher standoff distance. Hence the SANT and SAAW class of weapons. I don't think we will see Helina going onboard UAVs. I expect it to be SANT and SAAW variants. That's 2 years away from operationalization.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby brar_w » 22 Feb 2020 23:45

The Hellfire has been superseded by the JAGM, JAGM-F and later an JAGM II. The problem with range increases in this form factor (or at least within the same numerical carriage requirements on platforms of interest especially UAV's) is that the range is often dictated by much *harder* and often limiting time of flight requirements and the overall weapon form factor. The US Army is currently buying interim Spile NLOS for medium ranged shots off of its Apache fleet. But the future requirements it has for the Long Range Precision Munition are beyond that - >40 km range in a sub 90 kg weapon (with canister, if cannisterized) with a time of flight at max range of about 90 seconds. When you are looking to arm UAS's there will always be other limiting specifications that hold you back from just seeking more and more range.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Prem Kumar » 22 Feb 2020 23:50

Our CLGM/SAMHO is the Hellfire equivalent, in the cheap, laser guided category. The cold shoulder it has received & its restriction as a cannon-launched missile is sad

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby John » 23 Feb 2020 00:08

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/vkthakur/status/1230725564249427968?s=20 ----> DRDO presented a very clear headed concept of its Naval Anti-Shipping Missile Short Range (NASM-SR) at Def Expo 2020. The sea skimming missile is being developed for use from Sea King

Hmm interesting it is not using Turbojet that will explain its shorter range compared to Sea Eagle but it is still subsonic, the choice was made perhaps to simplify testing and bringer to production faster?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Indranil » 23 Feb 2020 02:14

This has been done on purpose to allow more flexibility with the choice of helicopters.

An optimized scaled down version of Nirbhay already is in the making. A few more (smaller) configs in design considerations.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ranjan.rao » 05 Mar 2020 00:16

Came across this folks..
https://reader.elsevier.com/reader/sd/p ... 9B6DA4C46D

came across this..while this is only simulation but gives some peek into the thought process. Not sure where else to put it...

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ramana » 05 Mar 2020 05:45

Someone please write an article on K-6 from public data.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Rakesh » 06 Mar 2020 09:39

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/12356 ... 69632?s=20 ---> Meteor is built in partnership with Germans (ramjet). Clash of interest. MBDA gave a flimsy excuse so as to exit Meteor integration. LCA directly influences prospects of sales in India. One can imagine why EF, SAAB & Dassault don't want Meteor on LCA. Good for Astra Mk-2.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Rakesh » 06 Mar 2020 09:41

https://twitter.com/defenceglobe/status ... 04545?s=20 ---> Sir, are they still going for Astra Mk2 as a dual pulsed missile till a SFDR based version of Astra is developed?

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/12357 ... 37568?s=20 ---> Yes. Many variants are on the cards. IIR head & CCM also. Mk-2 development is full steam.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Rakesh » 06 Mar 2020 09:59

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/12355 ... 59750?s=20 ---> Astra is better than any missile in IAF/IN today. It's got 2-way data-link, which no other missile in Asia has. It's got a clear path to enhancements, for even better end-game maneuvering + longer range. It's Indian, so services can get it off the shelf, without waiting.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Rakesh » 06 Mar 2020 10:06

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/12350 ... 83232?s=20 ---> ACM Bhadauria said "... when our indigenous Astra goes on to the Su-30 & MiG-29 that is the real power of parity and better performace that will spread across the air force... Indigenous technology projects need to succeed..."

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Vips » 21 Mar 2020 00:33

Testing of a couple of missiles is cancelled and postponed as Russian and Isreali experts are unable to travel due to the Coronoa Virus situation.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 21 Mar 2020 18:49

MRSAM and SFDR?

https://www.newindianexpress.com/states ... 19194.html

BHUBANESWAR: The threat of novel coronavirus has cast a shadow on flight testing of at least two missiles that have been jointly developed by India in collaboration with Russia and Israel.

Defence sources said the missiles were scheduled to be test-fired from the Integrated Test Range (ITR) off Odisha coast. With India restricting travellers from foreign countries, scientists from Israel and Russia had to stay back in their respective countries leading to deferment of both the tests till the situation normalises.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Pratyush » 21 Mar 2020 21:43

Karan M wrote:MRSAM and SFDR?

https://www.newindianexpress.com/states ... 19194.html

BHUBANESWAR: The threat of novel coronavirus has cast a shadow on flight testing of at least two missiles that have been jointly developed by India in collaboration with Russia and Israel.

Defence sources said the missiles were scheduled to be test-fired from the Integrated Test Range (ITR) off Odisha coast. With India restricting travellers from foreign countries, scientists from Israel and Russia had to stay back in their respective countries leading to deferment of both the tests till the situation normalises.


In the world where telemetry is available for analysis. What is the real requirement for having Russians or the yahudi on location at the test site.

Conduct the test and share the telemetry with the design partners for analysis and compliance with design parameters.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby manjgu » 21 Mar 2020 22:20

can someone detail the 2 way data link...how it works...

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby nam » 22 Mar 2020 00:57

Defence sources said the missiles were scheduled to be test-fired from the Integrated Test Range (ITR) off Odisha coast. With India restricting travellers from foreign countries, scientists from Israel and Russia had to stay back in their respective countries leading to deferment of both the tests till the situation normalises.


We could send a IAF plane or a business jet to get them over here, if they are so required.

Why stop the test. Both MRSAM & SFDR are crucial for us.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby NachiketM » 22 Mar 2020 05:01

manjgu wrote:can someone detail the 2 way data link...how it works...

Well it's mostly an automated process where the missile and the fighter's FCR computers talk to each other and make decisions based on what each sees and what one knows about the situation.
The FCR computer can actually see what the radar seeker sees so enables better endgame guidance or re-targeting.
Also through DL a buddy launch and control can be achieved through various other platforms and also possible to get a hit assessment and better ECCM resistance.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby manjgu » 22 Mar 2020 07:54

so the firing a/c has to be pointing in the general direction of the enemy a/c ( target) for the 2 way DL to work ? if the firing a/c turns away then the missile is like in single DL mode??

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Aditya_V » 22 Mar 2020 15:43

manjgu wrote:so the firing a/c has to be pointing in the general direction of the enemy a/c ( target) for the 2 way DL to work ? if the firing a/c turns away then the missile is like in single DL mode??

Firing aircraft needs to cover target at at angle need not be directly facing it.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby manjgu » 22 Mar 2020 19:51

YY i said in general direction of the enemy a/c.. what if the shooter a/c turns back... ?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Aditya_V » 22 Mar 2020 22:43

Last known coordinates before turning onboarding seeker. Or shooter can turn back and turn around partially to give an update to missile.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby kit » 22 Mar 2020 23:00

del
Last edited by kit on 23 Mar 2020 03:06, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby srai » 23 Mar 2020 00:34

manjgu wrote:YY i said in general direction of the enemy a/c.. what if the shooter a/c turns back... ?


Image
Image
Image
Image
Image

Buddy mode -> one targets, the other shoots
Image


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