Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby nachiket » 24 Jun 2020 22:22

Guys please don't take tweets by random people as the truth. Anyone can just post pics of QRSAM tests and claim they have inside info about them being not only produced and inducted but also deployed in a combat zone. These posts are intended for psyops against the enemy. Not to be taken seriously by ourselves.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ramana » 24 Jun 2020 23:03

ks_sachin wrote:
hemant_sai wrote:Why army is not opting for truck mounted AK630 in ladakh? I guess we have not yet produced those in numbers?

Where will the be used?



Sachin, Don't take me wrong but in many threads you are cutting off conversation and thus thinking.
AK 630 on truck mounted can be used against cruise missiles as point defence is needed.

Right now can't because they don't exist.

MoD is burning midnight oil to get Astra integrated on all platforms as emergency program.

This could have been done long back but was stalled by expert questions.

Same thing working fast to integrate modern fuzes/precision fire on to 105 mm shells.
IA has those in plenty in the mountains.

Before Kargil War no one tried to integrate the UK supplied Pave way kits to see if they work and had to seek DRDO and Israeli expertise to make them work.
Later all praised the LGB strike on Munthadalo camp.
And just 7 LGBs were dropped. Rest were all near miss bombs.

So getting back, please add your thoughts and not just questions.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Cain Marko » 24 Jun 2020 23:08

mody wrote:Some reports in the "India's Border Security..." thread that IA has deployed the QRSAM in Ladakh. The poster has written that the last successful test was on December 2019 and IA has skipped the user trails for now, due to the emergency situation!

Any truth in this news? It would be more likely that IA has moved the Spyder batteries from the western border to Ladakh. Besides do we have QRSAM system ready for deployment?

There have been news reports of a SAM battery being moved there. It was a couple of days ago on news x and rishabh gulatis show. Supposedly a truck reaction type, not necessarily the Desi one. Could be Spyder.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby mody » 25 Jun 2020 15:22

I hope they are also burning the midnight oil in getting the Helina and Man Portable NAG missiles ready and even small numbers pushed through.

Rudra helicopters can be deployed in eastern Ladakh. If the Helina is available, then the effectiveness will be much more. Helina is the primary weapon for Rudra and LCH. Even a small number like 64 would also make a difference. Its almost like a silver bullet. 1 missile can knock off 1 Chinese vehicle.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby kit » 25 Jun 2020 17:24

Am curious about bulk purchases of Russian missiles, more than likely they come with Chinese electronics !!., judging the way Russia depends on Chinese parts for manufacturing

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby nam » 26 Jun 2020 03:29

I feel XRSAM will probably look like stunner missile in size. Except for the bendy nose. Stunner is Barak (with 3 pulse) and booster. Range of 300KM!

Amazing such a slim missile gives 300KM! Fabulous tech. Compare that to the bulky Russian/Chinese SAM!

Wonder if it is better to go the stunner way and make XRSAM include capability of AAD. No point keeping it separate

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby brar_w » 26 Jun 2020 03:55

Stunner is not a 300km ranged missile. It is designed to defeat 300 km ranged Ballistic Missile threats which often gets erroneously cited as the weapons own range (which is classified as per the developer/Raytheon and obviously dependent upon its ability to loft which is also classified). This is something that the development team and its partner often clarifies at when asked at trade shows. Same with its seeker concept. They have a concept but not all what their envision is currently in production.

Optimizing around ballistic missile H2K intercept requires speed and agility to get to the PIP and make adjustments. That stage is there to serve this purpose. Plus its a hit to kill and doesn't have any warhead so that also allows it to go fast. But still, it is really optimized for a cost-capability mix that sits well inside the entire SRBM envelope.I guess that is the only way to do it if you want to affordably defeat both cruise and ballistic missiles (otherwise the BMD requirements for speed and agility add too much cost making it unaffordable for CMD). The threat system ranges as design parameters also work great for Israel given where some of their threats are located and what they need from this price point.

For the more sophisticated types and longer ranged threat missiles they will use their PATRIOTs and Arrow missiles.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Kanson » 26 Jun 2020 14:25

mody wrote:If the news about the QRSAM deployment is true, then it's great.

Precedent exists with the Pinaka rockets being used during Kargil. Though after Kargil it took a very long time for the Pinaka to come into service.


Precedence as you see is not only in Pinaka. There are other systems as well. Recently, we dont have go that far as kargil, few years back the system that was mentioned w gushing pride, that seen action before induction is Swathi WLR.

So, as you try to suggest we have precedence.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Kanson » 26 Jun 2020 14:32

kit wrote:Am curious about bulk purchases of Russian missiles, more than likely they come with Chinese electronics !!., judging the way Russia depends on Chinese parts for manufacturing

We too were importing chinese chips & parts. Will that suggest our defence products have chinese parts?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby mody » 26 Jun 2020 16:08

Any chance that SAAW has entered production and might be fielded by Su-30MKI's?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby kit » 26 Jun 2020 21:02

Kanson wrote:
kit wrote:Am curious about bulk purchases of Russian missiles, more than likely they come with Chinese electronics !!., judging the way Russia depends on Chinese parts for manufacturing

We too were importing chinese chips & parts. Will that suggest our defence products have chinese parts?


for military products?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ashishvikas » 02 Jul 2020 17:10

Anyway, in some good news for indigenization and the future preparedness of the @IAF_MCC & @indiannavy's air wing, the acquisition of *248* @DRDO_India developed Astra MK-1 beyond visual range air to air missiles has been approved by the Defence Ministry.

IAF fighters that will carry the Astra Mk-1: Su-30MKI, Tejas & eventually MiG-29UPG.
IN's Mig-29K's will also carry it. As will TEDBF, once that is developed.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/127 ... 28960?s=19

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Mollick.R » 02 Jul 2020 17:57

India approves massive defence-related proposals including 33 new fighter aircraft
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 740252.cms

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby nam » 02 Jul 2020 18:04

It just tells you the story of what is missing from our firepower. Pinaka, BVR, Nirbhay... 3 critical item. And ofcourse SDR.

Anyways this is DAC approval. Means nothing. DAC approved A330 AWACS twice already.. in the past 5 years.

So it is just to spice up the news for Chinis.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Manish_Sharma » 02 Jul 2020 20:15

TWITTER

Rahul_Dhammi:

So Now We Know:
LRLACM = NIRBHAY (2 stage = Solid Booster & Turbofan) + 3rd stage(Liquid Fueled Ramjet)
3rd stage(Same mechanism as Brahmos) will provide
A. Longer Range ~ 1500 km
B. Better EndGame Energy & Manoeuvrability
NIRBHAY: IA Induction V Soon
LRLACM: Design & Devp Phase


Image:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eb7SSonU4AA ... name=small

https://twitter.com/rahul_dhammi/status ... 14723?s=20

Image

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Manish_Sharma » 02 Jul 2020 20:24

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2020/07 ... ssile.html

The Lowdown On India’s Long Range Land Attack Cruise Missile
Shiv Aroor | Jul 02 2020

Decks have been cleared for improved air fore and ship-launched versions of India’s 1,000 km range Nirbhay cruise missile, twin efforts revealed first here on Livefist in 2018. In a statement today following the decision, the Indian MoD said the long range land attack cruise missile (LRLACM) would ‘add to the fire power of three services‘ and that the ‘addition of LRLACM with firing range of 1000 km to the existing arsenal will bolster the attack capabilities of the Navy and the Air Force.’

While the land-launched Nirbhay system has been in launch test since 2013, Livefist first revealed plans for the improved air-launched derivative in this detailed report. The DRDO and Indian Navy have also been conducting range extension studies to spawn a 1,500 km range LRLACM for ships. Today’s decision makes a so far exploratory effort official — the Nirbhay (and its derivatives) will be a tri-services missile system, and one of the most crucial in India’s arsenal. The Indian Air Force is likely to induct ground-launched versions of the LRLACM too before the separate air-launched version.

The LRLACM will be a vastly improved version of the Nirbhay, not just in terms of range, but also possibly its propulsion scheme. More on that in a moment.

Decks have been cleared for improved air fore and ship-launched versions of India’s 1,000 km range Nirbhay cruise missile, twin efforts revealed first here on Livefist in 2018. In a statement today following the decision, the Indian MoD said the long range land attack cruise missile (LRLACM) would ‘add to the fire power of three services‘ and that the ‘addition of LRLACM with firing range of 1000 km to the existing arsenal will bolster the attack capabilities of the Navy and the Air Force.’

While the land-launched Nirbhay system has been in launch test since 2013, Livefist first revealed plans for the improved air-launched derivative in this detailed report. The DRDO and Indian Navy have also been conducting range extension studies to spawn a 1,500 km range LRLACM for ships. Today’s decision makes a so far exploratory effort official — the Nirbhay (and its derivatives) will be a tri-services missile system, and one of the most crucial in India’s arsenal. The Indian Air Force is likely to induct ground-launched versions of the LRLACM too before the separate air-launched version.

The LRLACM will be a vastly improved version of the Nirbhay, not just in terms of range, but also possibly its propulsion scheme. More on that in a moment.

In a statement following today’s decision approving the development project, the Defence Research & Development Organisation said, “Presently, lead in projects have developed, demonstrated and matured critical cruise missile technologies such as aerodynamic configuration, vertical launch using solid booster, thrust vector control system, booster separation, in-flight wing deployment, in-flight engine start and long range way-point navigation system. Seeker development and testing by DRDO laboratories are demonstrated and is at a high level of readiness. Thus, it is important to take up the proposed development of fully indigenous long range land attack cruise missile that greatly enhances the operational capability of services.”

The baseline version of the Nirbhay will be a strategic forces element with India’s land forces, with the last development test conducted in April 2019. A planned series of tests will commence this winter before the truck based launch regiments are inducted into service.

While the Nirbhay is still powered by the Russian NPO Saturn 36MT engine, India’s indigenous Manik mini turbofan has also made progress, though it remains unclear when a Manik-powered Nirbhay will be tested. Delays in test infrastructure at the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) have stalled progress, though there are indications now of forward movement. Approval to the naval and air-launched versions of the Nirbhay will no doubt provide a boost too.

India’s long range cruise missile efforts date back at least a decade, with Livefist revealing in 2010 plans by the DRDO to develop one. At the time, the plan was for a fully supersonic missile powered by liquid fuel ramjet technology as detailed in the slide you see above from an official DRDO presentation.

With the BrahMos cruise missile, now operational with all three armed forces, taking care supersonic duties — including an active range expansion exercise that will put it out to 900 km or more — the LRLACM will be developed as a clear Nirbhay derivative, but with additional propulsion elements. As Livefist has reported here, the LRLACM could involve a three-stage power system: the Nirbhay booster to put the missile in the air, the NPO Saturn 36MT/Manik turbofan to power the cruise missile through its 1,000-km cruise phase and, finally, a ramjet engine that will push the weapon into supersonic endgame towards its target.

The Indian MoD and DRDO haven’t talked timelines yet. Livefist will follow up.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby basant » 02 Jul 2020 20:25

Defence Ministry Acquires 248 Indigenously Designed ASTRA Missles For IAF & Indian Navy
In a major boost to the Indian armed forces, the Defence Ministry has cleared the acquisition of 248 Astra Beyond Visual Range air-to-air missiles, marking the first acquisition of the indigenous DRDO-developed missiles. Of these missiles, the Navy will get 48 Astra missiles for its MiG-29K fighter jets, while 200 missiles have been acquired for its 33 new Russian fighter planes including 12 Su-30 MKIs and 21 MiG-29s. Proposals worth Rs 38,900 crore have been cleared by the Defence Acquisition Council, of which Rs 31,130 crore would be from the Indian industry.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Rakesh » 02 Jul 2020 20:56

And Now, 248 ASTRA Missiles For Navy & IAF Fighters
https://www.livefistdefence.com/2020/07 ... hters.html
02 July 2020

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Cain Marko » 02 Jul 2020 21:06

So for a fleet of 400 Russian fighters, there is a measly order of just 248+50 missiles. Throw in some Tejas as well and it looks like a really small order. Again. I thought Astra was going to be an r77 replacement, guess not.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Rakesh » 02 Jul 2020 21:19

This order will likely replace the older stocks of R-27s and R-77s. More orders will come of the Astra Mk1.

The Russians just supplied a new batch of newer R-27s and R-77s to Ambala AFS in the past couple of weeks.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Rakesh » 02 Jul 2020 21:40

Kuntal Biswas has just posted CGI images of Su-30MKIs with Astra BVRAAMs....

https://twitter.com/Kuntal__biswas/stat ... 10048?s=20 ---> ASTRA IS COMING. And here goes my watermark-free illustrations of Su-30MKI loaded with ASTRA BVRAAM!

Image

Image

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby basant » 02 Jul 2020 22:00

Cain Marko wrote:So for a fleet of 400 Russian fighters, there is a measly order of just 248+50 missiles. Throw in some Tejas as well and it looks like a really small order. Again. I thought Astra was going to be an r77 replacement, guess not.

Astra ordered is for the 33 new fighters and Mig 29Ks only. Older Rxx are replaced with newer ones which makes perfect sense as we need them now!

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby abhik » 02 Jul 2020 22:06

Real question should be the timeframe of delivery of those 248 missiles - that will give an indication of the production rate (needs to be around 200 per year given we will have around 260 platforms today (MKIs) and 400-500 (Tejas, M2K and Mig-29) eventually and the missiles themselves have a lifespan of ~15 years.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby nam » 02 Jul 2020 22:12

The two stage design with ramjet, will just make it a silver bullet and expensive.

May be a rocket power towards the end would be cheaper.

We want cheap rounds, not another brahmos. We end up creating exotic kit and not get inducted in numbers due to cost.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Prem Kumar » 03 Jul 2020 00:29

Any particular reason why Astra-MK1s cannot be ordered and deployed in numbers for the "current" MKI fleet, as opposed to the upcoming buys?

At any rate, happy that the Chinese incursions has created a sense of urgency & desi maal isn't overlooked

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby nachiket » 03 Jul 2020 01:24

basant wrote:Astra ordered is for the 33 new fighters and Mig 29Ks only. Older Rxx are replaced with newer ones which makes perfect sense as we need them now!

Why exactly can't the existing Su-30's not use the Astra? Astra integration was first carried out on the Su-30's and there was an older 50 missile initial order for them already. Integration with Tejas and Mig-29's is still pending.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ramana » 03 Jul 2020 02:50

Maybe all SU-30s don't have the avionics modifications to launch the Astra? And will make do with the RVV and R77s.

Bigger question is what happened to the 50 Astras initial order? Where they in delivery?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Indranil » 03 Jul 2020 03:38

The new LR cruise missile is an optimization of the Nirbhay missile. Slightly smaller. slightly lighter. slightly faster. but significantly longer ranged.

No Ramjet involved. You won't make a much better Ramjet based cruise missile than Brahmos-NG anytime soon.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby nachiket » 03 Jul 2020 03:52

How is the range extension to be achieved without a concomitant increase in size and fuel capacity?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby brar_w » 03 Jul 2020 04:03

    nachiket wrote:How is the range extension to be achieved without a concomitant increase in size and fuel capacity?


    Aerodynamic efficiency, propulsion efficiency or a combination of both, assuming that the warhead size remains the same. JASSM went from a 400 km range ( std JASSM) to a 1,000 km range (JASSM-ER) and will be going to a 1,500 km ranged weapon (JASSM-XR) all within the same form factor (though the XR will have a new wing design ) and warhead.

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    Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

    Postby basant » 03 Jul 2020 07:47

    nachiket wrote:
    basant wrote:Astra ordered is for the 33 new fighters and Mig 29Ks only. Older Rxx are replaced with newer ones which makes perfect sense as we need them now!

    Why exactly can't the existing Su-30's not use the Astra? Astra integration was first carried out on the Su-30's and there was an older 50 missile initial order for them already. Integration with Tejas and Mig-29's is still pending.

    They can but the news says that these are weapons for the new aircraft. It is normal that whenever new fighters are inducted they are provided with weapons package.

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    Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

    Postby SSridhar » 03 Jul 2020 08:14

    ramana wrote:Bigger question is what happened to the 50 Astras initial order? Where they in delivery?

    ramana, don't know. But, in March 2020, an IAF officer was quoted in the press, “We have initiated the process to acquire the first batch of the Astra missiles. Since it is indigenous, we will be procuring them in batches”.

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    Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

    Postby prasan » 03 Jul 2020 08:19




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    Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

    Postby pankajs » 03 Jul 2020 12:47

    Can't vouch for the handle but re-tweeted by Lifefist/Shiv Aroor

    https://twitter.com/Aryanwarlord/status ... 2041213953
    Salient points
    1) Truck launched version of 1000km Nirbhay to be inducted post final series of trials in winter .
    2) 900km+ ranged Brahmos version coming. (Imagine this on the P15 A & 'B)
    3) 1500km+ ranged LRLACM to be developed for tri-series usage .

    Note: 900 km Brahmos seems to be for the Navy perhaps will be carried by the mobile launcher but may not have an air variant. Sufficient to take out S-400 modules deployed along the border.

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    Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

    Postby Prem Kumar » 03 Jul 2020 13:12

    There are a few head-scratching items in the reports surrounding the current DAC approval:

    1) A TOI report said that the Brahmos-ER (500Km extended range) would be soon inducted. I thought the inductions of the extended-range version had already begun and even the existing stock was getting upgraded. The 450Km Brahmos test was done in 2017 itself. Maybe it got caught in the OODA loop of DAC-CCS-FinMin

    2) Nirbhay situation is clear as mud, with Shiv Aroor adding his own masala. Nirbhay was good to go for more than a year. Then the program was abruptly closed as a "TD" and a longer range version was being "desired by the forces" :roll: Massively frustrating, after years of dev/testing/failure and eventual success! This could have been our answer to the Chinese massive BM advantage over us, but hey what do we know?

    I think its this newer longer ranged version that they are talking about in a 2 - 3 year timeframe. The Ramjet endgame masala is either a Shiv Aroor fantasy or a different missile altogether.

    The reports mentioning "induction after winter trials" is confusing. The only missile ready for winter trials is the "TD" Nirbhay. And if the Army was keen on it, they had the last winter to run its winter trials

    3) The Pinaka announcement wasn't clear. Are they buying more rockets or MK1s or Mk2s or Guided Pinakas??

    4) SDR was clear. It took them 16 months after Balakot (Abhinandan going down after losing situational awareness) and a Chinese imminent war before someone decided that we need jam-proof comms & "look, surprise, we have been sitting on one for a few years now!"

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    Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

    Postby SSridhar » 03 Jul 2020 13:33

    Prem Kumar wrote:There are a few head-scratching items in the reports surrounding the current DAC approval:

    1) A TOI report said that the Brahmos-ER (500Km extended range) would be soon inducted. I thought the inductions of the extended-range version had already begun and even the existing stock was getting upgraded. The 450Km Brahmos test was done in 2017 itself. Maybe it got caught in the OODA loop of DAC-CCS-FinMin

    Yes, the 450 Kms test was achieved 3 years back. There was a proposal to increase the range to 600 Kms along with the Russians in 2016. Don't know what happened to that because the test was supposed to be by end of 2018.
    3) The Pinaka announcement wasn't clear. Are they buying more rockets or MK1s or Mk2s or Guided Pinakas??

    The MoD report talks of 'munitions' for Pinaka as it can carry a variety of munitions. May be they are ordering a certain type of munitions in large numbers.

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    Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

    Postby Aditya_V » 03 Jul 2020 14:05

    Prem Kumar wrote:T
    4) SDR was clear. It took them 16 months after Balakot (Abhinandan going down after losing situational awareness) and a Chinese imminent war before someone decided that we need jam-proof comms & "look, surprise, we have been sitting on one for a few years now!"


    Err.. read the PTI press realease, even I thought SDR was for airforce, but it says is for Indian Army :-?

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    Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

    Postby basant » 03 Jul 2020 15:36

    More interesting news
    The Indian Navy will be the first of the country’s three armed services to induct new-generation software-defined radios (SDR), following a contract signature on August 8, 2019 with state-owned Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL), the producer of the SDRs. It was on November 29, 2017 that the Defence Acquisition Council of the Ministry of Defence (MoD) had cleared procurement of these SDRs, valued at Rs.490 crore (US$70.64 million). More than 260 SDRs of different types are being procured under the Indigenously Designed Developed and Manufactured (IDDM) category.

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    Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

    Postby pankajs » 03 Jul 2020 19:39

    A view on Astra integration with our air fleet...

    https://twitter.com/zone5aviation/statu ... 5923483650
    Angad Singh @zone5aviation

    Nearly all IAF fighters will be Astra-capable in fairly short order – HAL mission computer is key to this, and is going most new/upgraded jets. Flanker, Fulcrum, Tejas (+variants), Mirage 2000...
    As and when the existing fighters get upgraded to the new HAL mission computer they will be able to deploy Astra. For now, new fighters will have the mission computer by default hence the limited order.

    Also on what looks like very expensive Su-30 MKI acquisition
    https://twitter.com/zone5aviation/statu ... 4006617088
    To clarify:
    - HAL mission computers for ALL MiG-29s
    - 21 "new" MiG-29s upgraded in Russia, existing lot in Nasik.
    - Su-30MKI price includes a great deal of additional equipment and mods to sort longstanding fleetwide issues
    - Astra-capable fighters now: Su-30MKI, MiG-29UPG/K/KUB

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    Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

    Postby Rakesh » 03 Jul 2020 20:26

    That is beautiful. Thank you so much pankaj. Greatly appreciated. I am tired of drooling (I am guilty of it!) over phoren maal. Astra all the way! Waiting for Astra Mk2 and SFDR.

    I am especially happy to see the bolded line about the Su-30MKI. Even if the IAF had to spend extra for these 12 birds -- if it addresses the longstanding fleetwide issues -- it is money well spent.

    Improve the serviceability of the fleet that is present NOW versus spending money on unobtanium like MMRCA.


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