Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby lakshmanM » 08 Jul 2020 16:11

There is no need to get maudlin. It's not like everyone out there is running around with an H2K-capable kill vehicle. Only Israeli systems will be compatible with our existing BMD infrastructure (which I must say is quite extensive). Only Arrow-3 will work with it (and the USA won't allow its export to India citing some made-up security reasons). Aegis Ashore/THAAD deployment from ground-up is prohibitively expensive. I doubt there is going to be much jaunting around for expensive imports after COVID is done wrecking the economy. Russians are in no shape to provide an alternative, they are behind India in this particular field.
A brown-skin system is all they got if the GOI is looking to deploy a BMD system with a wide-area defensive footprint

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 08 Jul 2020 16:34

Cain Marko wrote:So for a fleet of 400 Russian fighters, there is a measly order of just 248+50 missiles. Throw in some Tejas as well and it looks like a really small order. Again. I thought Astra was going to be an r77 replacement, guess not.


This is the 1st Batch. IAF will order more batches and the overall production numbers will likely be several times of the above. A mixture of budgetary and production stabilization concerns mean that this approach will be adopted.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 08 Jul 2020 16:38

ramana wrote:Maybe all SU-30s don't have the avionics modifications to launch the Astra? And will make do with the RVV and R77s.

Bigger question is what happened to the 50 Astras initial order? Where they in delivery?


Yes, my understanding is its 50+248.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 08 Jul 2020 16:39

SSridhar wrote:
3) The Pinaka announcement wasn't clear. Are they buying more rockets or MK1s or Mk2s or Guided Pinakas??

The MoD report talks of 'munitions' for Pinaka as it can carry a variety of munitions. May be they are ordering a certain type of munitions in large numbers.


Its the missiles for Pinaka.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 08 Jul 2020 16:40

Aditya_V wrote:
Prem Kumar wrote:T
4) SDR was clear. It took them 16 months after Balakot (Abhinandan going down after losing situational awareness) and a Chinese imminent war before someone decided that we need jam-proof comms & "look, surprise, we have been sitting on one for a few years now!"


Err.. read the PTI press realease, even I thought SDR was for airforce, but it says is for Indian Army :-?


SDRs were developed for the Navy and ordered. These are for the Army. The IAF is sourcing its 1st batch of SDRs from Israel, albeit manufactured in India.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 08 Jul 2020 16:41

idan wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:I think they should be able to intergrate them with the Tejas, M-2000, Rafale Fleet. This with Darin-3 Jaguars should keep the 384 missiles being used.

I dont think they were integrated with the Darin -1 and Darin-2 Jaguar's being begin phased retirement from 2023.


DARIN 3 is useless, the aircrafts remain underpowered. Another example of waste of money and shoddy planning.


This is incorrect. The aircraft may be underpowered for certain mission profiles, but otherwise they remain very potent in our mission scenario as strikers.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 08 Jul 2020 16:43

mody wrote:
negi wrote:^ You mean the science project ; I think given the fact that even AAD and PAD are not actually actively deployed (doesn't matter if it is ncert history rattoo babu , paan spitting politician or the golf playing kernail who fckd up) all this forward looking scenario building based on school laboratory grade science projects is BS. Fact is people can't get shit done in this country ; most of the military hardware is Rajpath Jhanki grade stuff. At the end of the day we are going to import M777 , Rafale or <fill in whatever one wishes to import>.


I can almost bet that the AAD and PAD/PDV will not be deployed. If at all they are cleared, it will only be a token deployment, kind of to keep the scientists happy, when you tell them to start working on a improved version.
BMD will most definitely come via an import route only. The reason that AAD-PDV combo will not be widely deployed as our 1st stage BMD is that no white skinned expert is going to be available to tell us that the system is good enough. On the contrary, there will be many white skinned experts ready to sell us every other kind of system being peddled anywhere in the world.


IAF has committed to the DRDO BMD system. As such it will be deployed for high-value areas. The key issue is budgetary.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby mody » 08 Jul 2020 20:30

Karan IAF may have committed for the BMD system, however, I suspect that no one will be certifying the system as fully operational and ready to be deployed for all high value targets across India. Unless the system is able to demonstrate H2K against multiple actual missiles simultaneously, it will probably see only limited deployment.
I hope I am proven wrong and we see 16-20 AAD/PDV systems deployed across India. However, it seems we will probably fall prey to some shiny S500/Arrow-3/THAAD etc. assorted combos.
Foreigners have been looting the country since the 12th Century and it doesn't seem like its gonna end anytime soon.

If the key issue is budgetary as you say, we wouldn't be opting for a system like the NASSAM for over a 7,500 crores, when even a fraction of that has not been spent on developing our own two layered BMD system.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 08 Jul 2020 20:35

mody wrote:Karan IAF may have committed for the BMD system, however, I suspect that no one will be certifying the system as fully operational and ready to be deployed for all high value targets across India. Unless the system is able to demonstrate H2K against multiple actual missiles simultaneously, it will probably see only limited deployment.
I hope I am proven wrong and we see 16-20 AAD/PDV systems deployed across India. However, it seems we will probably fall prey to some shiny S500/Arrow-3/THAAD etc. assorted combos.
Foreigners have been looting the country since the 12th Century and it doesn't seem like its gonna end anytime soon.

If the key issue is budgetary as you say, we wouldn't be opting for a system like the NASSAM for over a 7,500 crores, when even a fraction of that has not been spent on developing our own two layered BMD system.


1. No body will state publicly what the DRDO system can and cannot do. Detailing its capabilities beyond a point is not wise for us to do so.
2. There is no guarantee that the NASAMs will be purchased and it is completely a different class of system than the BMD anyhow. Its a mix of a SpyDer type capability and a VSHORADS (latter of which we lack, and had to rush to buy Igla-S).
3. Deploying the DRDO BMD system for "all high value targets" across India does not make sense. In Phase 1, it can handle IRBM class targets. So it will only be deployed for those areas/targets which come under that level of threat, and likely face a counter-value challenge.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby AdityaVM » 13 Jul 2020 12:47

Saar, I have a question for the gurus here. Based on the below article, Dr. V. K. Saraswat says that Agni-V can launch mini-satellites on demand.

https://www.deccanherald.com/content/243544/agni-v-can-launch-mini.html

“Agni V can be used to launch mini-satellites in low earth orbits in a theatre battlefield when your major satellite constellation is denied,” said V K Saraswat, scientific adviser to the defence minister and Director-General of Defence Research and ...


Does this mean that SFC will have a number of Agni-V's set aside for emergency tasking to launch satellites ?

Does this also mean that We have some mini-satellites to restore basic communications and remote sensing over Area of Interest already manufactured and in storage?

Or are we only planning to defend our space assets with deterrence by using our ASAT capability? But, then again giving a statement that it is capable on launching satellites doesn't make sense if we don't utilize it.

This is a question that has bugged me for a long time, hence asking. if the gurus think that it cannot be answered on an open forum and it is better for it to remain ambiguous then please excuse for asking the question.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Rakesh » 16 Jul 2020 21:32

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 40550?s=20 ---> BrahMos ALCM has been Fleet Release Clearance (FRC) by CEMILAC and has thus achieved operational service with Indian Air Force.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Rakesh » 17 Jul 2020 02:36

https://twitter.com/singhshwetabh71/sta ... 57152?s=20 ----> Let me tell you a story of a very interesting project India undertook starting in 1969, called Project Blunt. An anti-tank missile based on K-13 AAMs. DRDL wanted to develop a SAH (semi-active homing) head for the K-13, as a demonstrator and later enhanced to develop an operational homing head also.

https://twitter.com/singhshwetabh71/sta ... 14817?s=20 ----> On completion of the development, four modified K-13 missiles were fitted with indigenously developed homing heads. During the trials, they worked well in the height band 5 - 12 km at an acceleration of 3g and speed of 0.7 Mach.

https://twitter.com/singhshwetabh71/sta ... 27232?s=20 ----> The heads proved to be reliable, and 2 more missiles with homing heads and 2 more with IR heads were to be tested, but sadly the project was closed before they could be tested :roll:

https://twitter.com/singhshwetabh71/sta ... 56641?s=20 ----> If you don't know Vympel K-13s were one of the very early A2A missiles, copied from American Sidewinders, these were first deployed on MiG-21F-13s (Type 74). These missiles were highly inaccurate though.

Image

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ramana » 17 Jul 2020 02:41

For the worriers, Astra initial orders production is being tracked closely.

no more chalta hain.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Rakesh » 17 Jul 2020 02:44

ramana wrote:For the worriers, Astra initial orders production is being tracked closely.

no more chalta hain.

Long overdue change in behaviour. Very happy to hear.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ramana » 18 Jul 2020 11:33

Tarmak has a video of Helina hitting a target. Looks full live testing.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Chinmay » 18 Jul 2020 15:21

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyIUThJac6s&feature=emb_logo

Nice discussion on ATGMs in general and in IA service on Bharatshakti.com

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Mukesh.Kumar » 18 Jul 2020 16:48

ramana wrote:Tarmak has a video of Helina hitting a target. Looks full live testing.


Ramana-ji the video on Tarmak is great. Looks like full on trials. Quick Noob question here in two parts.
1. How do you stimulate realistically moving target
2. How does HELINA make adjustments in last stage to hit target. Are there thresholds of movement that can make missile miss?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 18 Jul 2020 17:54

ramana wrote:For the worriers, Astra initial orders production is being tracked closely.

no more chalta hain.


This is the best news possible R sir. Thank you for sharing!!

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby pankajs » 18 Jul 2020 18:12

Brig. Chatterji (Retd.) Interviewing Maj Gen Karki (Retd.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyIUThJac6s
Anti-Tank Missiles: Stopping Tanks in their Tracks


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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ramana » 19 Jul 2020 07:38

Mukesh.Kumar wrote:
ramana wrote:Tarmak has a video of Helina hitting a target. Looks full live testing.


Ramana-ji the video on Tarmak is great. Looks like full on trials. Quick Noob question here in two parts.
1. How do you stimulate realistically moving target
2. How does HELINA make adjustments in last stage to hit target. Are there thresholds of movement that can make missile miss?


They demostrated against a static target to show warhead effects.

The missile has enough veolcity much faster than a tank can move.

As for 2.0 yes if it moves faster than the missile it can escape.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby basant » 19 Jul 2020 16:07

Not sure if this has been posted here, but might interest nevertheless.

See The scariest image of an Indian missile?

Image

The website has interesting articles.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby basant » 19 Jul 2020 20:46

Not sure of authenticity but still, a post from Twitter by Nexoft Alam

The new generation 450kg penetration warhead from DRDO. A successor for Sudarshan LGB. It will also recieve newer indigenous LG Kit as well, taking its range to beyond 50km from ~10km range Israeli Griffin LG Kit.

Image

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Neela » 20 Jul 2020 02:12

basant wrote:Not sure if this has been posted here, but might interest nevertheless.

See The scariest image of an Indian missile?

Image

The website has interesting articles.

I have been searching for the Agni RV video in youtube. Can someone point me to it?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ramana » 20 Jul 2020 05:06

This is the same one.
We also tried to finnd at what height it was functioned for that gives idea of yield when this video first surfaced.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ramana » 20 Jul 2020 05:36

I dont know why they refer to the Sudarshan which had issues to put it mildly.
And this one looks like a PCB weapon. It looks high C/M.
It has aft fuzes showing it's for penetration.
Good, they have two fuze wells for reliability.
And at 450 kg is ~4* SAAW
Have they ground tested it?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby basant » 20 Jul 2020 11:22

India successfully tests 500 kg Indigenous HSLD Bomb

I think it is HSLD.

The trial covered ground adaptation, carriage and handling, limited separation and release of the bomb. Sukhoi-30MKI released PGHSLD-500 fitted on station 05/06 from an altitude of 5 km at 900 km to verify separation performance and to estimate stability.

“During the carriage trials, the aircraft touched the carriage limits of 0.85 at 150 m altitude and completed 6.5 ‘g’ and full roll maneuvers. The structural integrity of the bomb was found satisfactory after the trials,” DRDO said.


I think there is a typo for 900 km which should be 900 km/h. My guess is that it must be closer to user trails.

See also: New Generation ARDE Munitions Boost Indian Airforce Firepower

Edit:
Update from the poster on HSLD...
No. It's not 450kg HSLD. Its entire body is a warhead itself and needs add-on guidance kit to glide towards target.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby dinesh_kimar » 20 Jul 2020 13:31

basant wrote:I think there is a typo for 900 km which should be 900 km/h. My guess is that it must be closer to user trails.


My guess is it's the total range of the bomb, 9 km.

Speed usually given in mach, like 1.1 mach.

Apparently, the tech behind ground penetrator is very similar to the FSAPDS used in tanks, previously elaborated in Rohit Vats's excellent blog. (The entire tube is the warhead, a Kinetic Energy Kill weapon).

So, they try to make the bomb tube
- thinner ( less material to displace ),
- heavier (hence the US using artillery barrels, use of depleted
uranium in penetration bombs) and
-faster (drop from 5 km plus height, future might see powered rocket motors).

Khan's GBU-28 (aporox.5000 lb or 2000 kg) is apparently quite good, with a guarantee to penetrate 20 m of earth or 5 m hardened concrete.

( Nice to have solution for bombing nuclear reactors, Mangla dam, COAS bunker in Rawalpindi,etc).


In tests, it's reached upto 100 m earth penetration or 20 m concrete.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby mody » 20 Jul 2020 21:33

Reports about PGHSLD are all from 2017. No further reports thereafter. By the as per Wiki, the release speed of PGHSLD was at 900 Km/hr.

Some reports mention that SAAW has reached the LSP stage and limited production has started. Hopefully SAAW will enter service soon.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby abhik » 20 Jul 2020 22:46

Yes there are quite a few air launched munitions which have undergone tests/trials, but no news of inductions:
SAAW
- First test in May 2016
- More test in late 2016, 2017 and then 2018
- Reportedly to enter service this year, but no news of orders

PG HSLD
- First tested in mid 2017
- Can find any updates after this.

Glide Bomb (Garuthmaa/Garudaa)
- First tested in 2018(?) then again in 2019
- IIRC here was some talk of letting the private sector produce this, no news of concrete orders though.


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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby John » 21 Jul 2020 02:39


NASAM is not being acquired for BMD but rather part of integrated network to protect new Delhi. Why are they confusing things?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby nam » 21 Jul 2020 02:44

Realization that we didn't take the Chinese threat seriously. Now that there is a serious chance of our airbases getting hit by Chini BM.. we are looking to counter it.

And guess where is that counter? Ghar khi daal..

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Manish_Sharma » 21 Jul 2020 04:06

It seems nasam ii uses piddly amraam & sparrow missiles its more in league with SPYDER than S400 or AAD/PAD


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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby srin » 21 Jul 2020 06:38

What can a surface launched AMRAAM do that a surface launched Astra can’t ?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby John » 21 Jul 2020 08:47

srin wrote:What can a surface launched AMRAAM do that a surface launched Astra can’t ?

Or what can it do better than MR SAM which has all the capabilities and more including far superior range, dual pulse motor which greatly increases kill % against low flying maneuvering targets like drones and seems to be cheaper as well.

For point defense of buildings, how hard is it to locally develop some mounted igla launchers.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Kanson » 21 Jul 2020 11:23

basant wrote:Not sure of authenticity but still, a post from Twitter by Nexoft Alam

The new generation 450kg penetration warhead from DRDO. A successor for Sudarshan LGB. It will also recieve newer indigenous LG Kit as well, taking its range to beyond 50km from ~10km range Israeli Griffin LG Kit.

Image


Desi Paveway IV / Enhanced Paveway III ?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby nam » 21 Jul 2020 11:56

agupta wrote:
NASAMS-II for BMD ? :rotfl:

Oh well, don't let me interrupt your 5-c stream... carry on with your regularly social media ops; between you and Livefist, enough to create a "debate'


What debate? Who is claiming NASAMS is used for BMD?

IAF seems to be asking GoI to fund the BMD instead of NASAMS, probably a realization that there is a serious threat of Chini BMD on the airbases and a local solution is available to counter it.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Kanson » 21 Jul 2020 12:22

srai wrote:ASB-Glide Bomb
Image


Number of equivalents that can do 100+ km in 1000 /*+ kg category is limited. That's not a small feat.

Intially the success of such efforts globally were limited. Spice 2k can't do 100km.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Prem Kumar » 21 Jul 2020 13:10

Good stance by the IAF! NASAMS is a joke & will cause "nasam" to our indigenous efforts. There is nothing it offers that cannot be fulfilled by a combination of Akash-1S, QRSAM, MRSAM and BMD!

Oh yeah, and I forgot S-400

If the above combo is good enough for the military, its good enough to protect the political elite.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ArjunPandit » 21 Jul 2020 15:11

NASAM was always a political buy it was never bought on military merit. Thats why it might still go in


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